Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    In response to SilverSun's comment:

    Love is not the answer; need to draft a powerful DT in first round - and this draft has plenty of them.



    Agreed, Love and Deaderick are great depth guys but don't strike fear in opposing coordinators, they can easily be handled with a single talented offensive lineman.  We get one more blue chip DT and we'll have incredible depth along the defensive line.  It's probably time to say goodbye to Myron Pryor...

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    I think the front we use is really going to be dictated by the talent we have.  I think there are a few guys that we're going to want on the field in our base defense no matter what.  Those include Wilfork and Mayo and probably also Hightower and Jones.  If you go, 3-4, I think you need to use Jones as an OLB.  You also are probably moving Nink back to OLB.  There are two problems with this.  First, I don't know if Jones really can play backing up.  I see him more as an upfield player and therefore more as either a 4-3 everydown DE or a pass rushing specialist in a 3-4.  Nink, meanwhile, has been more effective as a pass rusher from the DE spot than he was as an OLB.  He can play that pass-rushing OLB, but he's not as effective as a pass rusher as Jones and he's not really that great a coverage LB either.  So I think in 3-4, you're either taking your best edge pass rusher (Jones) off the field to put in a more versatile (but generally less talented) player in Nink.  Maybe you try to use Hightower and Jones as OLBs, with Mayo and Spikes in the middle (and with Nink a back-up at OLB) . . . then I think you need to get two new linemen.  Wilfork, I assume stays at NT, but you need two good 3-4 DEs.  Armstead could be one and then you draft another.  Love, Deaderick, Forston, and Pryor are all available as back ups.  You've got a bunch of lighter guys (Francis, Bequette, Cunningham, Vega, Robertson, Bernard) who are passing down substitutes, I guess.

    Honestly, though, I tend to think this team is built a bit more like a 4-3 team.  In that case, I think your LBs and DL are pretty much what we saw last year, except we're trying to get a faster, stronger DT to line up next to Wilfork and replace Love or Deaderick.  That seems to me like the more likely course than a switch to 3-4.  

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    I think the front we use is really going to be dictated by the talent we have.  I think there are a few guys that we're going to want on the field in our base defense no matter what.  Those include Wilfork and Mayo and probably also Hightower and Jones.  If you go, 3-4, I think you need to use Jones as an OLB.  You also are probably moving Nink back to OLB.  There are two problems with this.  First, I don't know if Jones really can play backing up.  I see him more as an upfield player and therefore more as either a 4-3 everydown DE or a pass rushing specialist in a 3-4.  Nink, meanwhile, has been more effective as a pass rusher from the DE spot than he was as an OLB.  He can play that pass-rushing OLB, but he's not as effective as a pass rusher as Jones and he's not really that great a coverage LB either.  So I think in 3-4, you're either taking your best edge pass rusher (Jones) off the field to put in a more versatile (but generally less talented) player in Nink.  Maybe you try to use Hightower and Jones as OLBs, with Mayo and Spikes in the middle (and with Nink a back-up at OLB) . . . then I think you need to get two new linemen.  Wilfork, I assume stays at NT, but you need two good 3-4 DEs.  Armstead could be one and then you draft another.  Love, Deaderick, Forston, and Pryor are all available as back ups.  You've got a bunch of lighter guys (Francis, Bequette, Cunningham, Vega, Robertson, Bernard) who are passing down substitutes, I guess.

    Honestly, though, I tend to think this team is built a bit more like a 4-3 team.  In that case, I think your LBs and DL are pretty much what we saw last year, except we're trying to get a faster, stronger DT to line up next to Wilfork and replace Love or Deaderick.  That seems to me like the more likely course than a switch to 3-4.  



    Willie McGinest was the prototype elephant outside linebacker, Jones is no different from Willie Mac.  His position was molded by Lawrence Taylor who at outside linebacker was such a force in the pass rush that Belichick let him loose 90% of the time.  The positives to having a 6'5" linebacker coming at the QB is that even if they don't get to him they tend to block the field of vision and swat a lot of balls.  Also it is very hard to throw over a guy that tall with a long wing span whether rushing toward you or dropping back into coverage, this is why you often find these guys dropping back when you least expect them to, around the goal line on the weak side of the field.

    The best defenses we ever had in NE had the ability and depth to play both 4/3 and 3/4 and we've done both over the years, like you said dependent on personnel, but the freedom to choose from a variety of lineups is what this defense has lacked lately and mainly due to lack of depth along the D Line.  

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    Wozzy, let's say we use Jones like McGinnist in that elephant role.  Who do you see at the other LB and DL positions in a 3-4?

     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    Let's say we go 3-4, with Jones in that elephant role (hybrid DE-OLB). You still need three more linemen and three more linebackers.  I assume Wilfork, armstead, and the drafted 3-4 DE man the tree DL slots.  Who are the LBs? Is Nink on the field in base or is it Mayo, Spikes, and Hightower?

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    Let's say we go 3-4, with Jones in that elephant role (hybrid DE-OLB). You still need three more linemen and three more linebackers.  I assume Wilfork, armstead, and the drafted 3-4 DE man the tree DL slots.  Who are the LBs? Is Nink on the field in base or is it Mayo, Spikes, and Hightower?

     



    Mayo and Spikes inside, Jones, Ninck and Hightower rotating outside. Hightower is versatile enough to play anywhere along the linebacker corps.

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    Let's say we go 3-4, with Jones in that elephant role (hybrid DE-OLB). You still need three more linemen and three more linebackers.  I assume Wilfork, armstead, and the drafted 3-4 DE man the tree DL slots.  Who are the LBs? Is Nink on the field in base or is it Mayo, Spikes, and Hightower?

     



    Mayo and Spikes inside, Jones, Ninck and Hightower rotating outside. Hightower is versatile enough to play anywhere alolint he linebacker corps.

     



    Cool.  Might work well if we have the right linemen.  Add a LB who is good in coverage and you'd be in nice shape.  I'd like to see Hightower inside with Mayo and a better passdefender as the OLB opposite Jones.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from KyleCleric2. Show KyleCleric2's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to wozzy's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    Let's say we go 3-4, with Jones in that elephant role (hybrid DE-OLB). You still need three more linemen and three more linebackers.  I assume Wilfork, armstead, and the drafted 3-4 DE man the tree DL slots.  Who are the LBs? Is Nink on the field in base or is it Mayo, Spikes, and Hightower?

     



    Mayo and Spikes inside, Jones, Ninck and Hightower rotating outside. Hightower is versatile enough to play anywhere alolint he linebacker corps.

     

     



    Cool.  Might work well if we have the right linemen.  Add a LB who is good in coverage and you'd be in nice shape.  I'd like to see Hightower inside with Mayo and a better passdefender as the OLB opposite Jones.

     




    Between Dane Fletcher and Adrian Wilson, we may have that. Beyond those two, Tarpinian could compete for that role.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from seattlepat70. Show seattlepat70's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    I don;t know if anyone mentioned this already but one option would be to draft an NT this April. That would allow the Pats to move VW out to RDE, similar to how the Ravens use Ngata.

    Ngata actually almost did not play the NT role in quite some time. Kemoeatu and Cody platoon on the NT role. They do not swap the two on per down basis. They swap them on a per opponent drive basis. Ngata plays both DE sides, but over the last several games, he's playing >75% of DE snaps on the right.

    The only exception I have seen recently was when they played the Pats in the AFC championship game. Many times during that game, they had two down linemen (usually Kemoeatu and Ngata), flanked by, I believe, two linebackers (excluding Ellerbe and Lewis) on each side of the DTs (I have to go back to the DVR and verify this when I have time).

    We can debate who that NT should be (J Williams, Hankins, Jenkins, S Williams or even B Williams). Pats could move Armstead/Love to the DE position opposite VW.

    Franky, outside of Lewis, I do not see much difference between capabilities of Ravens' LBs vs the Pats'. I think C Jones can be as effective as Suggs, if not more effective, especially if VW lines up against the LT. On the opposite side, we can have a discussion, as I don't know who the OLB should be over there. Inside, a combination of Mayo, Hightower and/or Spikes can be as effective as Ellerbe+Lewis. I'd prefer that they have a quick/speedy fourth ILB for 3rd and long situations.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from portfolio1. Show portfolio1's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    I am not sure Jones has the football instincts to play Willie McGinest. I think he is mostly a down DE though if he has more flex we might start to see it in his second year.

    I was thinking Hightower might be moer the Willie McGinest player.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    In response to seattlepat70's comment:

    I don;t know if anyone mentioned this already but one option would be to draft an NT this April. That would allow the Pats to move VW out to RDE, similar to how the Ravens use Ngata.

    Ngata actually almost did not play the NT role in quite some time. Kemoeatu and Cody platoon on the NT role. They do not swap the two on per down basis. They swap them on a per opponent drive basis. Ngata plays both DE sides, but over the last several games, he's playing >75% of DE snaps on the right.

    The only exception I have seen recently was when they played the Pats in the AFC championship game. Many times during that game, they had two down linemen (usually Kemoeatu and Ngata), flanked by, I believe, two linebackers (excluding Ellerbe and Lewis) on each side of the DTs (I have to go back to the DVR and verify this when I have time).

    We can debate who that NT should be (J Williams, Hankins, Jenkins, S Williams or even B Williams). Pats could move Armstead/Love to the DE position opposite VW.

    Franky, outside of Lewis, I do not see much difference between capabilities of Ravens' LBs vs the Pats'. I think C Jones can be as effective as Suggs, if not more effective, especially if VW lines up against the LT. On the opposite side, we can have a discussion, as I don't know who the OLB should be over there. Inside, a combination of Mayo, Hightower and/or Spikes can be as effective as Ellerbe+Lewis. I'd prefer that they have a quick/speedy fourth ILB for 3rd and long situations.




    This was the basic premise of this thread, I'd like to sign a DT or draft a blue chip prospect who has the size, toughness and athleticism to play nose in a pinch.  There might still be more benefit to playing Vince at nose because nobody in the NFL can do it better and it's a tough assignment for a rookie to master, but having somebody there just in case would be smart and having the ability to play a 3/4 would be brilliant.

     

     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from seattlepat70. Show seattlepat70's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    ...

    This was the basic premise of this thread, I'd like to sign a DT or draft a blue chip prospect who has the size, toughness and athleticism to play nose in a pinch.  There might still be more benefit to playing Vince at nose because nobody in the NFL can do it better and it's a tough assignment for a rookie to master, but having somebody there just in case would be smart and having the ability to play a 3/4 would be brilliant.



    No time to baby these kids! Throw them to the fire!!! 

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from viewer222. Show viewer222's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    Belichick needs to stop with this two defensive tackle and two linebackers playing at defensive end alignment.

    It gets zero pressure on opposing QB's and the other team can easily block it with 5 offensive linemen, which then allows their tightends to get out and make plays.

    Back in the day we used to run the 3/4, and when we went to nickel packages we ran the 3/3/5. Granted we don't have Wilfork, Seymour and Warren along the front but Wilfork, Brace and Love would suffice with the amount of linebacker talent we possess.

    Last night I almost gagged when I saw us roll out Kyle Love as the only true D lineman on a play with Cunningham at tackle next to him with Ninck and Jones on a crucial 3rd down... you probably remember it, Flacco ran 5 yards for the first down because our line got blown off the ball. We need more beef on the field.

    I implore you BB, let this experiment die, it hangs our secondary out to dry, opposing O Lines wear our undersized four man front into the ground by the start of the 2nd half and we continually give up sizable leads.  

    Go back to the 3/4 and the 3/3/5!

    When Ted Washington, Seymour and Ty Warren anchored the DL, It was like there were 4 people on the line. How often does that happen?
    Also in that year (2003) they still had MGinnest at LB

    With a team with those talents I bet you can run an effective 3/4 but not to take anything away from this years players but they don't have the talents of that team. When you have average to better than average personnel (with a few exceptions such as Wilfork), you stay 4-3 for most of your plays.

    I agree!

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    We never play a true 4-3. Vince is virtually always playing 2 gap technique. We run a hybrid system where some guys on the line play 2 gap and others play 1 gap. Some of this might be due to personnel but I don't think BB wants to play a true 3-4 system in today's NFL. 

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    It's worth pointing out that not all 3-4s are two-gap.  In fact BB's old two-gap 3-4 is relatively uncommon.    Many 3-4s use more one gap techniques.  Really though, most of the NFL uses all sorts of hybrid looks in the front seven, much as they mix man and zone coverage in the defensive backfield.  And of course there are all sorts of sub packages used too, where the front is maybe six or even five players rather than seven.

    Complexity is the word in today's NFL and one reason the traditional positions don't always make sense anymore.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from palookaski. Show palookaski's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    Good reading thread.

    Yes, the 3/4 as Woz already explained but like he and Prolate say, "that depends on the Talent".
    Going back to that 3/4 is just as important as the Draft, that depends on hitting on the talent for implementation.

    If somehow Belichick can scoop Sanders away from Balty (a known. lose 3rd pick) then the Pats have a long threat and a short seam in Amendola. Then Mallet is still hanging out there and only BB knows if he is the heir apparent or not. If that's the case then the Pats could move up in the first and get the monster DL they need plus a 3-4th pick for Mallet. Add Abraham and that would be good.

    Have a great night and stay healthy ...

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from seattlepat70. Show seattlepat70's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    I have not really looked at this so I am just realizing this now... Since 2004 (Wilfork), Brace has been the only interior DL picked up in the first three rounds. Picking up a viable young DT is just overdue.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    In response to seattlepat70's comment:

     

    I don;t know if anyone mentioned this already but one option would be to draft an NT this April. That would allow the Pats to move VW out to RDE, similar to how the Ravens use Ngata.

    Ngata actually almost did not play the NT role in quite some time. Kemoeatu and Cody platoon on the NT role. They do not swap the two on per down basis. They swap them on a per opponent drive basis. Ngata plays both DE sides, but over the last several games, he's playing >75% of DE snaps on the right.

    The only exception I have seen recently was when they played the Pats in the AFC championship game. Many times during that game, they had two down linemen (usually Kemoeatu and Ngata), flanked by, I believe, two linebackers (excluding Ellerbe and Lewis) on each side of the DTs (I have to go back to the DVR and verify this when I have time).

    We can debate who that NT should be (J Williams, Hankins, Jenkins, S Williams or even B Williams). Pats could move Armstead/Love to the DE position opposite VW.

    Franky, outside of Lewis, I do not see much difference between capabilities of Ravens' LBs vs the Pats'. I think C Jones can be as effective as Suggs, if not more effective, especially if VW lines up against the LT. On the opposite side, we can have a discussion, as I don't know who the OLB should be over there. Inside, a combination of Mayo, Hightower and/or Spikes can be as effective as Ellerbe+Lewis. I'd prefer that they have a quick/speedy fourth ILB for 3rd and long situations.

     




    This was the basic premise of this thread, I'd like to sign a DT or draft a blue chip prospect who has the size, toughness and athleticism to play nose in a pinch.  There might still be more benefit to playing Vince at nose because nobody in the NFL can do it better and it's a tough assignment for a rookie to master, but having somebody there just in case would be smart and having the ability to play a 3/4 would be brilliant.

     

     



    Tommy kelly is hanging out there now, as well as Seymour..sey is a long shot, but Kelly would be a decent 3-4 de with armstead on the other side, or, use the draft as well to get Hankins. Hankins, vw and kelly upfront is a very big line.

    i think we go Hightower amd jones outside, mayo and spikes inside. On third down we could bring in fletcher or use awilson in place of spikes. 

     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    It's worth pointing out that not all 3-4s are two-gap.  In fact BB's old two-gap 3-4 is relatively uncommon.    Many 3-4s use more one gap techniques.  Really though, most of the NFL uses all sorts of hybrid looks in the front seven, much as they mix man and zone coverage in the defensive backfield.  And of course there are all sorts of sub packages used too, where the front is maybe six or even five players rather than seven.

    Complexity is the word in today's NFL and one reason the traditional positions don't always make sense anymore.




    In a true 4-3 I don't think interior lineman play 2 gap though or if they do it isn't that often.  Vince plays 2 gap on pretty much every snap.  Even DE's in a 4-3 don't generally play 2 gap unless a TE pinches in to block in the running game.  I agree with you that the NFL is more about hybrid looks these days, but I think the technique your lineman play is a lot more instructive when it comes to identifying the closest "pure system" than counting the number of lineman or linebackers on the field.

    The real question which I alluded to at the end of my previous post is whether or not Belichick would run his old 2 gap system if we had the defensive line for it.  It's an interesting question although one that is unlikely to be answered given that the odds of us having a line similar to Wilfork, Seymour and  Ty Warren in the near future are pretty low.  I tend to lean towards no simply because of who we have and haven't drafted in the past few years.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from seattlepat70. Show seattlepat70's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    One gap vs two gap... 34 vs 43... can someone here school me a bit?

    Do you guys have opinions on which D systems will, at least conceptually, be most effective against teams that play a lot of spread offense? Or does it matter? I know it boils down to execution, but I believe some Ds are better at stopping certain Os.

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    In response to seattlepat70's comment:

    One gap vs two gap... 34 vs 43... can someone here school me a bit?




    This article was written not that long before the 2011 SB.  It simplifies things a bit too much on a few issues, but is a nice primer.

    http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7537225/bill-belichick-vince-wilfork-new-england-patriots-defense

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    In response to seattlepat70's comment:

    One gap vs two gap... 34 vs 43... can someone here school me a bit?

    Do you guys have opinions on which D systems will, at least conceptually, be most effective against teams that play a lot of spread offense? Or does it matter? I know it boils down to execution, but I believe some Ds are better at stopping certain Os.



    Pass rushers and D tackles who can stand their ground are becoming bigger commodities once again in today's pass happy NFL, look to Baltimore who lost their all pro middle linebacker, lost the guy who was supposed to replace him (?), yet signed another pass rusher instead (Dumervil) even though they had Suggs and Wiley sitting there.

    Two gap simply means standing your ground instead of rushing up field through a gap.  It's why Richard Seymour and Wilfork never had amazing sack numbers as Patriots but are still the best at what they do.  It's a tough assignment, sometimes taking on two blockers who are trying to move you off your spot, that's why big and tough is a prerequisite.  We need one more of these.  If we get one more our edge rushers like Jones and Nincovich will get free much more frequently and we'll be able to take chances rushing corners and safeties on blitzes.

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    In response to seattlepat70's comment:

     

    One gap vs two gap... 34 vs 43... can someone here school me a bit?

    Do you guys have opinions on which D systems will, at least conceptually, be most effective against teams that play a lot of spread offense? Or does it matter? I know it boils down to execution, but I believe some Ds are better at stopping certain Os.

     



    Pass rushers and D tackles who can stand their ground are becoming bigger commodities once again in today's pass happy NFL, look to Baltimore who lost their all pro middle linebacker, lost the guy who was supposed to replace him (?), yet signed another pass rusher instead (Dumervil) even though they had Suggs and Wiley sitting there.

     

    Two gap simply means standing your ground instead of rushing up field through a gap.  It's why Richard Seymour and Wilfork never had amazing sack numbers as Patriots but are still the best at what they do.  It's a tough assignment, sometimes taking on two blockers who are trying to move you off your spot, that's why big and tough is a prerequisite.  We need one more of these.  If we get one more our edge rushers like Jones and Nincovich will get free much more frequently and we'll be able to take chances rushing corners and safeties on blitzes.

     




    looks like Seymour is still one of the best at standing his ground and playing the run...I hope he swallows some pride and comes back for a 4rth title run!

     

    8. Richard Seymour, Oakland Raiders

    2012 Cap Hit: $8.8m
    2012 Performance Based Value: $3.8m
    Value Differential: -$5.0m

    The first of two Raiders to make this list, Richard Seymour was as productive as ever when he played. He had the second-best Performance Based Value on this list even though he appeared in only eight games. Seymour’s +9.5 grade on the season was business as usual — the 33-year-old’s lowest season grade in the PFF era was a +5.5. Seymour had an unexceptional Pass Rushing Productivity of 4.8, but his play in the run game was where he made his money this season. His Run Stop Percentage was 7.8 and his overall run defense grade was +8.5. If Seymour comes back healthy from his hamstring injury he could still provide great short-term value for a team in need.

     
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