Belichick whiffs in the 3rd again...

  1. This post has been removed.

     
  2. This post has been removed.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Belichick whiffs in the 3rd again...

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

     

    In response to TexasPat's comment:

     

     

    RESPONSE: I never said that Gooden was a star...just a guy that gave the team some production...and started for the Ravens in 2009. We'll see what Harmon does. Can I put you down as saying that Harmon will be the answer for the Pats at SS? Oh, I forgot...Tavon Wilson was the answer.

    Why is it that your focusing soley on Gooden? Why are you neglecting to talk about Haloti Ngata, Flacco, Rice, Torrey Smith, Yanda, and Grubbs...hmmm???

    Go back to the five year olds, son...LOL!!!  

     

     



    You counted Gooden (among a few other guys I took issue with) as a hit for Newsome in one of your earlier posts.

     

    RESPONSE: That is not the same as pointing him out as a star...just a productive player.

      The entire point of this back and forth has been to expose the double standard you have for evaluating BB's picks versus the picks of other GMs such as Newsome.

    RESPONSE: And you're failing miserably.

      You give other GMs far more benefit of the doubt when evaluating picks.

    RESPONSE: Just how stupid can you be? Please list BB's draft picks since 2006 that match up with this list of Ravens' players drafted from 2006: Haloti Ngata, Joe Flacco, Ray Rice, Marshall Yanda, Michael Oher, Ben Grubbs, Torrey Smith, Lardarius Webb, and Paul Kruger?  

      Why would I talke about Ngata, Flacco, Rice, Torrey, Yanda or Grubbs?

    RESPONSE: Yes...why would you...when you know it completely destroys your homeric opinion.

      Those were good picks so I had no issue with you classifying them as such.  It is disingenuous to compare Newsome to BB and then stack the deck in Newsome's favor by giving him credit for picks that are equal to or worse than picks of BB's that you have classified as busts.

    RESPONSE: You have pointed consitently to one player...Gooden. It is you that are being disingenuous.

    It is also disingenuous to cherry pick 2006-now and conveniently remove 2 of Newsome's weakest drafts the 2 years prior.

    RESPONSE: All along I have said that BB, from 2006-present, hasn't drafted well...and was terrible from 2006-2009. I haven't even mentioned the Chad Jackson fiasco, when Bill selected him with the 36th overall pick in 2006. Who turned out to be  better player, Jackson or Gooden? LOL!!!

      Of course you aren't trying to have a genuine debate here.

    RESPONSE: You keep repeating the same bs, over and over...and trying to change the topic. All you have spoken about as Gooden. Let's talk about the Ravens' players I mentioned above, and compare them to what BB has wrought. No?? on't want to do that? LOL!!!

     You are just trying to push your agenda that Belichick is a bad drafter who (to use you words not mine) "would be fired if he was GM of another team".

    RESPONSE: That not an agenda...that's an opinion.

      Even if BB came out himself and said that Newsome was a better drafter it wouldn't matter.  Why?  Because Newsome is one of the top GMs in the league.  Proving Belichick is inferior to Newsome (which I am not conceding)

    RESPONSE: Stop right here. Are you seriously going to argue that BB is better at drafting then Newsome? Okay...please produce facts to support this opinion of yours. I'll be looking forward to it. If you don't we'll all understand why.

    isn't proving that Belichick is a bottom tier drafter who would be fired if he was on another team.  I think most people would agree Matt Ryan isn't as good as Rodgers or Brady.  That doesn't make him a bottom tier QB.  If anyone is acting like a child here it is you.

    RESPONSE: BB has been awful. Why don't you get off your homer butt, and review his drafts since 2006...and you rate them. We'll see just how objective you are, son. Until you do, go run along with the five year olds. 




     

     
  4. This post has been removed.

     
  5. This post has been removed.

     
  6. This post has been removed.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Belichick whiffs in the 3rd again...

    In response to TexasPat's comment:

     

    RESPONSE: That is not the same as pointing him out as a star...just a productive player.


    I've already pointed out how players you have classified as busts drafted by BB have been FAR more productive than Gooden ever was for the Ravens.  Even a guy drafted later than him meaning your draft position argument (as lame as it already was) is exposed as a fraud.  Just like you.

     

    RESPONSE: And you're failing miserably.


    Only in your warped little mind.

     

     

    RESPONSE: Yes...why would you...when you know it completely destroys your homeric opinion.


    My opinion wasn't even comparing BB to Newsome.  It was pointing out how you counted players as hits for Newsome that you would have declared busts had they been drafted by BB.  You are the one that brought up Newsome's legitimate draft hits.  Presumably because you have no answer to my actual argument and are deflecting from the fact that you are getting completely owned by facts.  You haven't presented a shread of actual evidence about the players I specifically mentioned and instead bring up irrelevant players like the ones you are mentioning now.

     

    RESPONSE: You have pointed consitently to one player...Gooden. It is you that are being disingenuous.


    No dimwit.  I picked 4 players.  Dickson, Gooden, Smith and Barnes.  You listed 18 players total.  That is over 20% of the players you listed.  The only reason I have pointed to Gooden more than the others is because you have defended him more vehemently than the others and he happens to be the weakest of all of them.

     

    RESPONSE: All along I have said that BB, from 2006-present, hasn't drafted well...and was terrible from 2006-2009. I haven't even mentioned the Chad Jackson fiasco, when Bill selected him with the 36th overall pick in 2006. Who turned out to be  better player, Jackson or Gooden? LOL!!!


    You can't respond to accusations of cherry picking with "well that's the only time period I am talking about".  Are you too stupid to understand what cherry picking means?

     

    RESPONSE: You keep repeating the same bs, over and over...and trying to change the topic. All you have spoken about as Gooden. Let's talk about the Ravens' players I mentioned above, and compare them to what BB has wrought. No?? on't want to do that? LOL!!!


    No you are the one changing the topic dimwit.  The topic was how you mistakenly give Newsome credit for certain draft choices.  You have tried to change it to Belichick's drafting or Newsome's drafting, but that was not what this was originally about.

     

    RESPONSE: Stop right here. Are you seriously going to argue that BB is better at drafting then Newsome? Okay...please produce facts to support this opinion of yours. I'll be looking forward to it. If you don't we'll all understand why.


    Let's get rid of the cherry picking and compare their actual draft histories.  Newsome was made GM in November of 2002 so he was GM for the drafts from 2003-2012 (the 2013 draftees haven't played a down yet so they are impossible to include).  From 2006 to the present you named 18 players for Newsome.  5 of them I can argue are mislabeled.  Gooden was a JAG and special teamer who was cut.  Barnes did nothing on the Ravens and was traded for a future 7th round pick (sort of makes it hard to argue he was a hit doesn't it).  Jimmy Smith has been a bust in Baltimore thus far.  Read their forums.  The guy has been torched and barely seen the field.  Dickson has had one average at best season and 2 below average seasons.  He wouldn't be rostered here.  Gino Gradkowski has never started a game for the Ravens.  Do you consider Marcus Cannon a hit for BB?  

    That leaves 13 players between 2006 and 2012 for Newsome.  His 2004 and 2005 drafts yielded Dwan Edwards and Jason Brown.  His 2003 draft yielded Suggs, Johnson and Pashos.  That is 18 total players.

    Over the same period BB has drafted Ty Warren, Eugene Wilson, Samuel, Koppen, Wilfork, Mankins, Hobbs, Kaczur, Mayo, Vollmer, Hernandez, Spikes, Gronk, DMC, Solder, Ridley, Jones, Hightower and Dennard.  That is 19 players.  

    BB's 19 players have gone to more combined pro bowls and been named to more combined 1st team all pro teams.  So over the entire period that Newsome has been GM you can make a pretty good argument that BB has been right there with him.  And that my friend is nowhere near bottom of the league in drafting.  So you can yell and scream and pull your  hair out about your cherry picked sample, but those of us living in the real world realize that BB is not infallible and makes draft mistakes (the 2006 and 2007 drafts were particularly brutal), but his overall body of work speaks for itself.

    Now I'm sure you'll counter with some "homer" retort or argue that you don't care about the earlier years, but no amount of handwaving will change that that is cherry picking.  Did I mention that BB has drafted as many all pros as Newsome since 2006?  Learn the game dimwit.  Now I understand how a moron like Rick Perry could get elected as governor of Texas.

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from CablesWyndBairn. Show CablesWyndBairn's posts

    Re: Belichick whiffs in the 3rd again...

    NESN report on Harmon.  Is he struggling according to this guy?  Hardly.  Is he holding his own?  Sounds like it.  Lesson:  let the young guys develop and make no proclamations about them until some time after their 1st week of training camp.

     

    Duron Harmon: Harmon was the third-round pick that sent draft analysts scrambling on April 26. While ESPN and NFL Network showed highlights of the rest of the players taken in the first three rounds, Harmon did not. That prompted his mother to ask, “Baby, where are all your clips at?”

    So far, Belichick looks to have outsmarted the rest of the league (shocking). Harmon missed OTAs and minicamp with an injury, but has acclimated himself to the defense surprisingly quickly. He’s even taken some snaps with the first team, and might be the safety that would play back deep with Devin McCourty if the team goes into a cover two with two players in the back half of the field.

    Harmon has come with away with some impressive pass deflections and at least one interception during training camp. It probably helps that he feels comfortable with so many of his former Rutgers teammates around, especially McCourty, the captain of the secondary.

     
  9. This post has been removed.

     
  10. This post has been removed.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Belichick whiffs in the 3rd again...

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

      [QUOTE]

    No dimwit.  I picked 4 players.  Dickson, Gooden, Smith and Barnes.

    RESPONSE: Do you deny that these are, and have been, productive players? Torrey Smith is on his way to being a pro-bowl caliber. Dickson is a solid player, and the Ravens' starting TE. Barnes is a good situational ;pass-rusher, who had 11 sacks in 2011, Gooden started for the Ravens in 2009, and is a solid reserve with the 49ers. Talk abou being dimwitted, you don't find these players productive?

         Now...please list the Patriot players drafted from 2006-present that you feel have been good, productive picks. What's the matter?? BB has done such a wonderful job, that this should be easy! I'm waiting.

     

     You listed 18 players total.  That is over 20% of the players you listed.  The only reason I have pointed to Gooden more than the others is because you have defended him more vehemently than the others and he happens to be the weakest of all of them.

    RESPONSE He's been the only player that you wanted to discuss. You don't want to talk about Ngata, Flacco, Rice, Webb, Kruger, Torrey Smith, Oher, Yanda, Dennis Pitta, or Ben Grubb. Why?

         Still waiting for you list of productiove BB picks. 

     You can't respond to accusations of cherry picking with "well that's the only time period I am talking about".  Are you too stupid to understand what cherry picking means?

    RESPONSE: I have always, in my criticisms of BB, poited to that period, because the Pats haven't won a SB since 2005. Poor drafting is a main reason why. Don't you agree? If not, please defend BB's draft for those periods? Come on, defend your brilliant drafting coach. We're waiting. 

    [QUOTE]

    No you are the one changing the topic dimwit.  The topic was how you mistakenly give Newsome credit for certain draft choices.  You have tried to change it to Belichick's drafting or Newsome's drafting, but that was not what this was originally about.

    RESPONSE That is NOT the topic. The topic is the putrid BB drafts...which you apparently know you can't defend. I'm waiting. Come on...show us what a wonderful job his done...that, according to you, is as good or better than the job done by Ozzie Newsome.

    THIS IS YOUR STATEMENT: "...Newsome is one of the top GMs in the league.  Proving Belichick is inferior to Newsome (which I am not conceding) isn't proving that Belichick is a bottom tier drafter who would be fired if he was on another."

    SO son...has BB been as good as Newsome, from 2006-present? Yes, or no! That period does not include when players like Tom Brady, Richard Seymour, Ty Warren, or Asante Samuel, were drafted. When BB was making picks like that, I had no criticism of him. The fact that the Pats haven't won a title since 2005 is an indictment of the lousy overall job that BB has done during the draft...and has always been the basis on my criticisms of BB and his draft selections. GOT IT?

    So...quit trying to talk ancient history here...and lets talk about how many pro-bowlers BB has selected in the draft, since 2006. How many? How many productive players has he had? Why do you refuse to defend BB during the period from 2006-present? 

    Now...either defend BB for his drafts from 2006-present, or admit that you can't defend him. If you're not man enough to do so, then please run back to your 5 year olds, and leave the serious football talk to us adults. 




     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Belichick whiffs in the 3rd again...

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

    I've always said BB is a great coach. I've always said he is an expert talent evaluator for players he actually has on the team. He just isn't anything special when it comes to evaluating players he doesn't actually have on the team.

    Bottom line on BB: Great HC, meh GM.

    I'm not pessimistic at all. I'm just a sober judge of what is actually what. I don't join in on debates whether Mayo is a good player or not. I don't question Wilfork's worth. I acknowledge Mankins, Solder and Vollmer are good lineman. 



    This doesn't make sense, he's an expert talent evaluator but only for players on his team... there's all sorts of adjectives I could use to describe this but I'll avoid them to protect your delicate sensibilities.  Not for nothing but you join in knocking all of our players not named Brady when the other negative Nancies start the moaning... it's kind of your calling card, it's what you're known for.  I don't expect you to admit it or acknowledge it.. but it's true.

     
  13. This post has been removed.

     
  14. This post has been removed.

     
  15. This post has been removed.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTS. Show BostonTS's posts

    Re: Belichick whiffs in the 3rd again...

    Why is UD6 still here? 

     

         
     
  17. This post has been removed.

     
  18. This post has been removed.

     
  19. This post has been removed.

     
  20. This post has been removed.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Belichick whiffs in the 3rd again...

    Hey Tex I love how in your latest response you start talking about Torrey Smith when I was talking about Jimmy Smith.  I have been clear on which Smith from the beginning.  More nonsense deflection from you.  My favorite part was when you completely ignored the draft history player breakdowns which completely blew a hole in your pathetic argument.  I'll make it real simple so that even your feeble mind can understand.

    You keep cherry picking the years 2006-2012.  The definition of cherry picking is taking a sample that is not representative of the population as a whole in order to push a false conclusion.  In this case the full sample are the years that both BB and Newsome have been GMs.  Newsome has been GM for the 2003 draft to the present.

    In your sample from 2006-2012 BB has drafted players that have been named to a combined 3 first team all pro teams and 10 pro bowls.  From 2006-2012 Newsome has drafted players that have been named to a combined 3 first team all pro teams and 12 pro bowls.

    In the full population from 2003-2012 BB has drafted players that  have been named to a combined 6 first team all pro teams and 26 pro bowls.  In those same years Newsome has drafted players that have been named to a combined 4 first team all pro teams and 19 pro bowls.

    So if you look at your sample BB has drafted as many first team all pros as Newsome and slightly less pro bowlers.  If you look at the full population BB has drafted more all pros and more pro bowlers.  THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF CHERRY PICKING numbskull.

    I'll take it even further.  What if we only look at the years 2008-2012.  In that span BB has drafted players that have been named to 2 first team all pro teams and 7 pro bowls.  Newsome has drafted players that have been named to ZERO first team all pro teams and 3 pro bowls.  What are you going to do now?  Accuse me of cherry picking?  LMAO @ U.

    At the end of the day all of this is moot.  This data demonstrates that BB is on the same level as Newsome at drafting pro bowlers and all-pros even in the stupid cherry picked sample you keep whining about.  By definition he cannot be a bottom tier drafter like you claim.  Learn the game you dipstick.

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Belichick whiffs in the 3rd again...

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

    Hey Tex I love how in your latest response you start talking about Torrey Smith when I was talking about Jimmy Smith.  I have been clear on which Smith from the beginning.  More nonsense deflection from you.  My favorite part was when you completely ignored the draft history player breakdowns which completely blew a hole in your pathetic argument.  I'll make it real simple so that even your feeble mind can understand.

    You keep cherry picking the years 2006-2012.  The definition of cherry picking is taking a sample that is not representative of the population as a whole in order to push a false conclusion.  In this case the full sample are the years that both BB and Newsome have been GMs.  Newsome has been GM for the 2003 draft to the present.

    In your sample from 2006-2012 BB has drafted players that have been named to a combined 3 first team all pro teams and 10 pro bowls.  From 2006-2012 Newsome has drafted players that have been named to a combined 3 first team all pro teams and 12 pro bowls.

    In the full population from 2003-2012 BB has drafted players that  have been named to a combined 6 first team all pro teams and 26 pro bowls.  In those same years Newsome has drafted players that have been named to a combined 4 first team all pro teams and 19 pro bowls.

    So if you look at your sample BB has drafted as many first team all pros as Newsome and slightly less pro bowlers.  If you look at the full population BB has drafted more all pros and more pro bowlers.  THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF CHERRY PICKING numbskull.

    I'll take it even further.  What if we only look at the years 2008-2012.  In that span BB has drafted players that have been named to 2 first team all pro teams and 7 pro bowls.  Newsome has drafted players that have been named to ZERO first team all pro teams and 3 pro bowls.  What are you going to do now?  Accuse me of cherry picking?  LMAO @ U.

    At the end of the day all of this is moot.  This data demonstrates that BB is on the same level as Newsome at drafting pro bowlers and all-pros even in the stupid cherry picked sample you keep whining about.  By definition he cannot be a bottom tier drafter like you claim.  Learn the game you dipstick.

     


    Boom!

     
  23. This post has been removed.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Belichick whiffs in the 3rd again...

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

    You keep cherry picking the years 2006-2012.  The definition of cherry picking is taking a sample that is not representative of the population as a whole in order to push a false conclusion.  In this case the full sample are the years that both BB and Newsome have been GMs.  Newsome has been GM for the 2003 draft to the present.

    RESPONSE: What BB did prior to 2005 is irrelevant. What this discussion centers upon is my premise that BB and the Pats haven't won a title since that year, due to poor drafts, from 2006-13. That has been my position all along. I understand why you and your fellow homers wish to call this "cherry picking". It's just an excuse to avoid the truth. I'm not saying to take 2008 and 2009...I'm saying the entire period, covering 8 consecutive years. Cherry picking?? LOL!!!  

    In your sample from 2006-2012 BB has drafted players that have been named to a combined 3 first team all pro teams and 10 pro bowls.  From 2006-2012 Newsome has drafted players that have been named to a combined 3 first team all pro teams and 12 pro bowls.

    RESPONSE: Let's name names, please. Who are these Patriot players to which you refer? Are you really going to count the Brandon Meriweather pro-bowls?? LOL!!

    In the full population from 2003-2012 BB has drafted players that  have been named to a combined 6 first team all pro teams and 26 pro bowls.  In those same years Newsome has drafted players that have been named to a combined 4 first team all pro teams and 19 pro bowls.

    RESPONSE: I have no criticisms of BB's drafts from 2000-2005. So please, let's stick with the 2006-present period.

    So if you look at your sample BB has drafted as many first team all pros as Newsome and slightly less pro bowlers.  If you look at the full population BB has drafted more all pros and more pro bowlers.  THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF CHERRY PICKING numbskull.

    RESPONSE: Talk about being an idiot...how is a consecutive period of 8 years "cherry picking"? Again, you and your fellow homers don't dare talk about BB's poor drafts during those years...because it shows that they are a major reason why the Pats' haven't won a title since 2005. 

    I'll take it even further.  What if we only look at the years 2008-2012.  In that span BB has drafted players that have been named to 2 first team all pro teams and 7 pro bowls.  Newsome has drafted players that have been named to ZERO first team all pro teams and 3 pro bowls.  What are you going to do now?  Accuse me of cherry picking? 

    RESPONSE: Keep right on dodging and avoiding. The Pats haven't won a title since 2005, mainly becauseof BB's louy drafts from 2006 to present. Why are you so reluctant to defend his drafts?  

    At the end of the day all of this is moot.  This data demonstrates that BB is on the same level as Newsome at drafting pro bowlers and all-pros even in the stupid cherry picked sample you keep whining about.  By definition he cannot be a bottom tier drafter like you claim.  Learn the game you dipstick.

    RESPONSE: You can go ahead and name call, and enage in personal attacks all you like. But, the bottom line is that you refuse to defend BB's drafts, from 2006-present. I wonder why? LOL!!

     



           

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mike-J-D. Show Mike-J-D's posts

    Re: Belichick whiffs in the 3rd again...

    I normally don't comment on personal battles.  I normally don't comment at all.  But this thread was a complete beatdown.  pcmIV bringing the pain.

     
Sections
Shortcuts