Big Nickle

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from ShiningWizard. Show ShiningWizard's posts

    Big Nickle

    All this talk about Vince Wilfork getting franchised and perhaps traded got me thinking about the Pats switching to a Big Nickle defense, or at least adding this formation on a more regular basis.  If they trade VW for a 1st round pick, they could turn that into at least one good D-line prospect in a draft that is looking pretty deep at the DT position.  The Pats would still have decent depth at DT should VW get traded.  They could move Warren and Wright inside, with Brace and Prior rotating in.  They could also bring in another DT or two like Odrick, Dan Williams or Brian Price with the Wilfork compensation pick.  I also think Mayo could excel in this type of defense. 

    Let's not forget that Belichick has tinkered with adding a SS/LB type for years now, going all the way back to the days of Victor Green in '02.  This almost became a reality a couple years back with the signing of Tank Williams and him on the verge of making the team before he blew out his knee. 

    I think Belichick senses a need to incorporate the Big Nickle defense as a supplement to his base 3-4 because the league has become much more of a passing league.  Teams that can throw the ball with precision have torched the Pats the past couple years.  As more teams have switched to the 3-4 defense, I think Belichick continues to try staying ahead of the curve and brings in the Big Nickle package on a regular basis.  I know I'd like to see more of P. Chung next year playing next to Meriweather.  The Pats could even be in a position to draft a guy like Taylor Mays from USC, who's probably an ideal fit to play the SS/LB position this defense.  

    Just saying it's something to consider.   
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from arodrambone. Show arodrambone's posts

    Re: Big Nickle

    I was thinking Mays when I started reading your post.

    Not sure if he has the smarts required, but he might be uniquely qualified from a physical standpoint.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ShiningWizard. Show ShiningWizard's posts

    Re: Big Nickle

    Having Meriweather, Chung and Mays all on the field at the same time would be very interesting.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheFantasyBaron. Show TheFantasyBaron's posts

    Re: Big Nickle

    I'm not sure I understand what the big nickel is other than bringing in the extra DB who probably is also a good tackler. I'm all for anything that gets them a better shot in coverage. I think a switch to the 4-3 makes sense since there will be slim pickings for the 3-4 mode player by the time the Pats pick and Peppers plays the 4-3 if that's the direction they want to go. Anything works if you have the personnel and I don't think the Pats have the talent on the roster right now to execute anything well but as you are suggesting by wanting Butler on the field more they need to take lemons and make lemonaid. I hope BB is flexible because I'm not impressed with the FA list and without that they're dependant on the draft.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from ShiningWizard. Show ShiningWizard's posts

    Re: Big Nickle

    Baron,

    It's basically a 4-3 look because the added safety could play closer to the line serving as a extra linebacker or drop back into coverage.  It also places more emphasis on the D-line to generate a pass rush since there are only 2 Lbs.  Peppers would be an ideal fit in this case, as well as USC's Taylor Mays.  They could then also re-sign D. Burgess and have him play on the opposite of Peppers, while rotating-in guys like Brace and Prior to give Warren and Wright a breather. 
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from kansaspatriot. Show kansaspatriot's posts

    Re: Big Nickle

    I hoped BB watched the super bowl and saw how the bend don't break defensne really works nowadays, the big nickle is a good optiion to have

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BSII. Show BSII's posts

    Re: Big Nickle

    Big Nickle of 2002 with Milloy, Tebucky and Victor Green last seen getting run over by Steve McNair on Monday Night.  Yuck.

    Got to have safeties that can cover and tackle for it to work.  Meriweather can cover but is a weak tackler,  Sanders can tackle, mediocre in coverage. not sure about Chung either way.  Mays is a very intersting pick if he falls.  I like the idea.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from LazarusintheSanatorium. Show LazarusintheSanatorium's posts

    Re: Big Nickle

    To ALL:

    ~Wow...I mean WOW!  Simply an extremely good premise here offered by Wizard...  First, for those that don't know what a "Big Nickle Defense" is, It deploys 4 Down Lineman, 2 Linebackers, and 5 Defensivebacks.  Also, With our 2 starting OLBs either mediocre, or just both gone to Free Agency next year, and with our starting NT a big question mark, this "Big Nickle D" becomes an intriguing option...

    ~Now, I've seen Big Nickles where there is, or isn't an NT (2 DEs and 2 interior DTs OR 2 DEs and 1 DT & 1 NT), and the Linebackers, seem at least to me, more of the pure-tackling MLBs (in fact, they're usually listed as MLBs).  So, as it stands regarding N.E.'s current personell, Our current LBs also are pretty aptly fitting (at least in part).  Jerod Mayo, Wizard is correct, would be perfect, and with that extra body on the D-Line, his pure tackling prowess would shine better, SINCE-Gary Guyton is not a true 3-4 Strongside Middle Linebacker.  Guyton, filling in at varying spots last season (including: OLB, WILL-usually weakside 3-4 ILB I believe, to rest Mayo at times) Looked far better in these varying roles last season, than he did taking on O-Lineman to free up Mayo better, while Guyton was playing the 3-4 Strongside ILB (where Guyton played before Seau, who can't play forever, took over the reigns). 
         Again, Guyton's got excellent speed (if I recall correctly) and is a decent tackler, BOTH traits lend further credence to Wizard's "Big Nickle Defense" thinking...  Also, again imho-Gary Guyton, even though he has that speed, showed himself as a massive liability in pass-coverage over the short-middle portions of the field, specifically in terms of opposing offenses dumping the ball of to their RBs-who would subsequently turn a 5 yard pass into a 25 yard gain early in this past season. 
         So as there's 4 down Defensive lineman now occupying an extra O-Lineman than a merely just 3 in N.E.'s standard 3-4 D, Then on plays which are in fact passing plays by the other team, Guyton (again-as our current personell...even though he's a Free Agent) would and could be sent in as an extra pass-rusher...somewhere up the middle with one or both of N.E.'s DEs going wide around the O-line (resigning Derrick Burgess in Free Agency, would imo offer with Burgess's skills as a 3-4 OLB, an even wider array of potentials-i.e. in probably more varying blitz schemes and/or dropping into pass-coverage better too)...

    ~However, the most interesting part of "The Big Nickle" in terms of current New England Patriot personell, comes with The Defensiveback set-up.  Recall, There are 5 DBs...  Which I've seen listed as 2 Strong Safeties, 2 Cornerbacks (left CB/right CB), and 1 nickleback...AND/OR, I've also seen Big Nickle D's with 2 Strong Safeties, 2 Cornerbacks, and yet another Safety.  So, even though I'm unsure IF that other Safety would be a player more adept at the deep-field, ball-hawking, better-in-coverage Free Safety Role OR the bigger, better-tackling, harder-hitting Strong Safety Role...Is NOT The Far More Intriguing part to me...  

    ~The interesting idea comes with wondering How well a player such as Wizard mentioned, with the physical form of Tank Williams for instance (something like 6'3 but not very far over 200lbs), could occupy one of those Safety's roles by playing as a sort of Safety/Linebacker 'tweener. 
          See ALLOne problem I have with The Big Nickle D, is those MLBs: even though, your defense has an extra D-Lineman on the line, those 2 MLBs usually aren't the best pass-rushers (perhaps that a 3-4 OLB is, for instance)...  YET, by having someone possibly like Burgess, who doesn't have those overly strong aspect(s) of his game (like Jerod Mayo's tackling prowess), Burgess instead-doesn't have any real weak areas of his game either, SO he very well could be used to help stop a running play, or drop into coverage, and He very well could blitz also.  BUT imho, THIS isn't the largest concern of playing The Big Nickle Defense...
          The biggest worry to me, Is the overall SIZE of the player-personell the defense now has on the field...  Size of the players take a backseat to the overall Speed of the players in said big nickle defense...Overall, that's great against offensive passing plays, but it's a liability against the run (as we ALL saw in a somewhat similiar sense when Belichick experimented with Tank Williams as an undersized 3-4 Linebacker during pre-season a few years back...the opposing offense ran something like a dozen consecutive running plays-and though they weren't huge runs, they were enough to keep the offense's drive steadily going).  
           HERE though, By offering that Safety/Nickle CB as that player who has the measurables of a "Tank Williams-esque" Safety/Linebacker hybrid...COULD absolutely make a Nickle Defense's biggest shortcoming (the small size factor), not nearly as bad (even IF you offer that S/LB hybrid on certain running downs, and subsequently interchange him with that Regular Safety/Nickle Cornerback on certain passing downs). 
        
    ~Finally NOW, In terms of the 2 Strong Safeties that a "Big Nickle Defense" Always has on the field of play...IMHO, The N.E. Patriots current personell would work utterly brilliantly...  See, as some of you ALL might know, Bill Belichick THIS year, has been experimenting with his 2 Safety Spots as is:  GONE is the smaller Free Safety who's main forte was excellent coverage coupled with the much larger Strong Safety who's main forte was hitting like a truck on run/safety blitzes, IN now, Is 2 mid-sized, decent hitting, decent covering, And now interchangeable Safeties.  This gives far greater variables to a Defensive scheme instead of having a pure SS and a pure FS (Example: as the audibling QBs of nowadays can see the typical Strong Safety of the past crowding the line to blitz the passer or help with a sure running play, the QB therefore would merely change the play-call to a passing play in order to exploit a secondary manned only by 1 single Free Safety)...
          YET NOW, With N.E.'s current personell of mid-sized Safeties in McGowan, Merriweather, Chung, and somewhat to a lesser degree-in Sanders (more of a Free Safety imo) Many of hese guys have played many other positions in a Defense's Secondary (Merriweather played deep-safety alot this year, but was usually a SS last year, & He played some CB in college too/Chung played SS/FS/CB and was even a mid-sized LB roamer during his College time @ Oregon/McGowan I believe played Strong Safety mainly in Maine, but this year He played as an excellent coverage Safety, showing he could almost shut-down any and all TEs in this league-check out the stats too-Jet's TE, Bill's TE, Indy's Dallas Clark, Atlanta's Tony Gonzalez...all Brandon McGowan).  
         So N.E., by playing with any number of these Safeties in any number of those secondary spots of either: 3 Safety//or 2 Safety 1 nickle CB//or 2 Safety 1 S-LB hybrid positions would, in theory, be able to mask so much of what it wanted to do and give the other team's offense so many varying looks.  

    ~Man...so sorry about the length, but this Thread Idea offers so much pure potential it's ridiculous.
      
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: Big Nickle

    I really don't know enough about about fooball X's and O's (Sometimes I think I may be the only guy here who knows he can't be a coach in the NFL) to know if this is a brilliant plan.  However from what I do understand about the big nickel it sounds like a very good plan.  If you look at the personnel moves the last couple of years it almost seems like BB might be putting the pieces in place get a package like this running. (maybe that's why he wants to run the defense this year?)

    If it helps the Pats pass defense I'm all for it because I would agree that the passing game is where the NFL is going and defending it is the only way to be successful.  However I think it's important to point out that the Pats are likely to face two of the best rushing attacks in the NFL in their own division in NYJ and MIA so they have to make sure there is a good run defense package available.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from LazarusintheSanatorium. Show LazarusintheSanatorium's posts

    Re: Big Nickle

    "I really don't know enough about about fooball X's and O's (Sometimes I think I may be the only guy here who knows he can't be a coach in the NFL) to know if this is a brilliant plan.  However from what I do understand about the big nickel it sounds like a very good plan.  If you look at the personnel moves the last couple of years it almost seems like BB might be putting the pieces in place get a package like this running. (maybe that's why he wants to run the defense this year?)."

    ~Shenanigan...I was actually thinking the exact same thing.  BB drafting Myron Pryor & Daryl Richard, BOTH players, in technique and size, who are far more suited to 4 D-Lineman type D's than a 3-4 D; 4 Safeties, as well as these Safeties playing varying DB spots throughout their careers, as well as outsizing the true SS & FS to the mid-sized, dual-coverage interchangeable Safeties; Experimenting with that Safety/Linebacker hybrid; Smaller (but altogether, quicker) Outside Linebackers than what BB once had deployed in his 3-4 D; Not caring about drafting a true Strong Inside Linebacker; Not "seemingly" greatly concerned about keeping a true 3-4 NT in Wilfork and/or IF BB's using some type of Nickle/Big Nickle, which has more DBs overall, Then Belichick- Not totally concerned with keeping Asante Samuel as a CB...  ALL these moves when taken together, just screams that something has gotta be up here.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Davedsone. Show Davedsone's posts

    Re: Big Nickle

    Eh.  I like playing good solid coverage behind a furious pass rush.  With 3 linebackers.  2 corners, 2 safeties.  One safety should be a bit more of an LB size wise.  But the point of emphasis here, 4 large men up front pushing the Oline back into the QB's lap.  Pressure=pick, Cover=sack.  Period.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Tcal2. Show Tcal2's posts

    Re: Big Nickle

    Have any teams of the past won the Super Bowl employing a Big Nickel?  Is anyone using it currently? 
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jason4444444. Show Jason4444444's posts

    Re: Big Nickle

    The big thing with BB and his defenses are that they are constantly changing. Reiss usually tracks after the game how often they are in a given formation and it is usually different depending on the opponent. In other words BB likes players that are flexible, smart and athletic. To say that they are going to change into a certain defense is the wrong way to look at it. To say that they have the flexibility to go into different defenses depending on the situation in the game and the strengths of the other teams offense. I am not saying I don't like the idea of having a hybrid LB/SS in the bag for BB is a bad idea but I don't think he should change his entire offense becuase of one player.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from NickC1188. Show NickC1188's posts

    Re: Big Nickle

    The Saints just used the 3-3-5 extensively in their Super Bowl win.

    It depends on whether your personnel and the game plan fit, but it's definitely something different and the SS/OLB gives you a lot of versatility.

    I swear I already saw McGowan play the SS/OLB role at times, though, this year.  Maybe after hitting a midseason wall he'll come around this year and make the leap
     

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