Biggest Personnel Mistake Besides Amendola

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    Re: Biggest Personnel Mistake Besides Amendola

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    Always keeping in mind that the Patriots offered Welker more money than he's making now the season before last, before they invested the resources to sign Amendola.  There's only so much money you can allocate to the slot receiver position.



    If it was just a slot position I would agree Wozzy but we are talking a #1 receiver, not just a slot guy. Since we ended up spending nearly as much on a guy who can't even stay on the field it does say that per production value they spent more on Amendola than Welker got from Den so they are actually spending more to get less as of right now. That's not to mention if they decide to cut Amendola for any reason in the next 2 years the dead money they will incur because of it.



    Good point. perhaps that was the problem? Slot WR as our #1 option and 2 te's as our #2 & 3 options?

    i am not saying I am smarter than bb, however, I would have built the offense a bit differently. First, I would have extended Gronk like he did. But, I would have let ah ride on his rookie contract and taken the money we gave him and signed a quality deep threat. ah plays for another year or two and then we see what happens. I would have let welker walk and not signed amendola. I would drafted another big wr that can play outwide and also another TE Like ertz or fleener. 

    PI would have been left with Gronk and my rookie TE/ah/hooman as my te's, a proven vet WR outside, edelmn in the slot, and a rookie WR learning behind them. Add to that thompkins aS the udfa and I think the offense would have been okay. Gronk not playing and ah gone still leaves ertz/Fleener at TE plus hooman, edelman in the slot, vet WR outside and thompkins as well. When we run 4 WR sets, Fleener or ertz could have lined up as a WR, with Edelman, vet WR and thompkins Even with gronk and ah missing, still a potent offense. 



    Yes, but if you are planning on walking from Welkie, which it was clear by summer 2012, they were, who is your Welkie? It was Hernandez.  

    Would you rather have rented Welkie for 2 years, not resign Hernandez for those 2 and then lose Hernandez after 2014?

    Obviously now, this is a dead question, but just saying.  Some fans would have raced in here in 2014 and blamed BB for not investing in the younger Hernandez and trying to chase a ring for Welkie. Sometimes BB will never win with some people.

    That was the logic because letting either Gronk or AH go to FA would have meant easily losing one of them and then not having budget control over your 1st choice, which would have been Gronk.

    Bottom line is, anyone complaining about these approaches by BB does not get it.  Not saying you, but it's beyond lame to armchair QB these things. The approach is sound, everything else is fate and destiny that is out of a human's control.

     

     



    And just to elaborate...my approach wouldn't have factored in or arm chaired the ah situation. Meaning I am it saying this now because of what happened with ah, but rather where I chose to invest and in what positions. Clearly the pats offense has been 2 dimensioanl as I noted above. I would have invested my cash in 1 player representing the 3 dimensions and used my drafting to add 1 player to each dimension. 2 is 1 and 1 is none. 



    WHat is your definition of 3 dimension and 2 dimension?

    I think BB viewed Hernandez as a guy who could go wide and inside, where Welker could only stay on the inside to be effective due to his height.

    Add in the age element, and there's the reasoning.

    Fact is, you aren't finding a Hernandez every day of a tree.  Fleener is nowhere near Hernandez's talent level.

    Again, the logic is quite sound. In 2015 when the cap goes up and you have some Fleener type wanting perceived market value, for example, he would have gotten more than Hernandez assuming the production is similar.

    Hence, why BB was trying to pay ahead of market. These are things that you really can't fault. I am not saying you are, but if you're nitpicking in terms of saying "I would draft the move TE because you can find a Hernandez talent in ever draft", then we disagree.

    Hernandez was a 1st rd pick without the weed or immaturity issues.  Dustin Keller was a 1st rd pick, for example and he's nowhere near Hernandez level.



    Short, middle, long/outside part of the field. I personally don't think ah was a threat on the outside at least not like a true wideout. He was better there using him like you mentioned using welker there. Hern worked the short and middle like welker. I don't think he added anything on the outside. 

    PI know ah was a unique talent, but honestly I think he was somewhat overrated. I think with bb and tb coaching them up and tb slinging the ball, they could have taken great advantage of either ertz and Fleener. I think either of those kids are as athletic as Hernandez. 

    again, I am not armchairing. I am saying my approach out of the gate would be a bit different. 



    At 6'1 against a smaller nickel he's a weapon on the outside, yes.



    Okay but they didn't use him on the outside running anything resembling a longer type route where speed, positioning, hands and jumping ability come into play. He could out muscle a smaller db or out quicken a bigger lb, but he ain't going long for a reason. He had limits just like welkie.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Biggest Personnel Mistake Besides Amendola

    In response to 49Patriots' comment:

     



    Correct me if im wrong, but i believe BB told everyone that Rex was a good friend of his and that he had great respect for him. He also told them, the entire team, that they were not allowed to insult him in anyway. The little twerp disregarded a direct order from the top and gave the Jets bulletin board material, which if I remember correct, was one of the reason Bart Scott listed in his "can't wait" rant for the Jets playing so hard on defense. Bruschi wouldn't have made foot puns, but   then again, Bruschi wouldn't have left for the Colts if BB didnt give him Urlarcher money.



    Ok, unless you are BB's friend please point out where he said not to insult Rex. I'd like to see that quote. Besides isn't BB always saying do what's best for the team? Please explain how having your best WR on the bench is best for the team or letting that incident prevent you from signing him resulting in signing a player who's been MIA as best for the team? I understand the loyality to the laundry cause I have it too but I'm also objective enough to realize it goes both ways and letting Welker walk over a mil and some tension over foot puns was a bad decision 

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: Biggest Personnel Mistake Besides Amendola

    In response to Harvey-Wallbanger's comment:

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    Would you rather have Talib or Welker? I know i would take Talib over paying Welker his Larry Fitzgerald level contract he asked for in 2011.



    Nonsense. Welker wasn't asking for Fitzgerald money. Talib will be looking for that kind of money. Talib is going to get paid based on how he is playing this year. Not sure the pats can afford him. I would have let welker walk. I would rather have Talib but we are talking about 2 different positions and 2 different pay grades. 



    Yes, he was, originally. 10-12 million per.

    It's why rejected the 8 million per originally. Reiss reported the disconnect was Welker saw himself as a 12 TD per year guy and a real red zone threat and someone who could stretch the field and line up on the outside.

    Flat cap next year, not good leverage for any FA. Talib will not command 10-12 million per in this market.

    8 is as high as he will see in the market, IMO.  I think 7 with up front guarantees gets it done.

    Welker outperformed his prior deal and his ego got the better of him. BB does not pay anyone on past laurels and he doesn't just see stats as the value.



    I agree, but I am talking negotiations after the turned down 8mil per. There is a big difference between welker and Fitzgerald, surely welkie and his agent get this? 

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: Biggest Personnel Mistake Besides Amendola

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    Always keeping in mind that the Patriots offered Welker more money than he's making now the season before last, before they invested the resources to sign Amendola.  There's only so much money you can allocate to the slot receiver position.



    If it was just a slot position I would agree Wozzy but we are talking a #1 receiver, not just a slot guy. Since we ended up spending nearly as much on a guy who can't even stay on the field it does say that per production value they spent more on Amendola than Welker got from Den so they are actually spending more to get less as of right now. That's not to mention if they decide to cut Amendola for any reason in the next 2 years the dead money they will incur because of it.



    Good point. perhaps that was the problem? Slot WR as our #1 option and 2 te's as our #2 & 3 options?

    i am not saying I am smarter than bb, however, I would have built the offense a bit differently. First, I would have extended Gronk like he did. But, I would have let ah ride on his rookie contract and taken the money we gave him and signed a quality deep threat. ah plays for another year or two and then we see what happens. I would have let welker walk and not signed amendola. I would drafted another big wr that can play outwide and also another TE Like ertz or fleener. 

    PI would have been left with Gronk and my rookie TE/ah/hooman as my te's, a proven vet WR outside, edelmn in the slot, and a rookie WR learning behind them. Add to that thompkins aS the udfa and I think the offense would have been okay. Gronk not playing and ah gone still leaves ertz/Fleener at TE plus hooman, edelman in the slot, vet WR outside and thompkins as well. When we run 4 WR sets, Fleener or ertz could have lined up as a WR, with Edelman, vet WR and thompkins Even with gronk and ah missing, still a potent offense. 



    Yes, but if you are planning on walking from Welkie, which it was clear by summer 2012, they were, who is your Welkie? It was Hernandez.  

    Would you rather have rented Welkie for 2 years, not resign Hernandez for those 2 and then lose Hernandez after 2014?

    Obviously now, this is a dead question, but just saying.  Some fans would have raced in here in 2014 and blamed BB for not investing in the younger Hernandez and trying to chase a ring for Welkie. Sometimes BB will never win with some people.

    That was the logic because letting either Gronk or AH go to FA would have meant easily losing one of them and then not having budget control over your 1st choice, which would have been Gronk.

    Bottom line is, anyone complaining about these approaches by BB does not get it.  Not saying you, but it's beyond lame to armchair QB these things. The approach is sound, everything else is fate and destiny that is out of a human's control.

     

     



    And just to elaborate...my approach wouldn't have factored in or arm chaired the ah situation. Meaning I am it saying this now because of what happened with ah, but rather where I chose to invest and in what positions. Clearly the pats offense has been 2 dimensioanl as I noted above. I would have invested my cash in 1 player representing the 3 dimensions and used my drafting to add 1 player to each dimension. 2 is 1 and 1 is none. 



    WHat is your definition of 3 dimension and 2 dimension?

    I think BB viewed Hernandez as a guy who could go wide and inside, where Welker could only stay on the inside to be effective due to his height.

    Add in the age element, and there's the reasoning.

    Fact is, you aren't finding a Hernandez every day of a tree.  Fleener is nowhere near Hernandez's talent level.

    Again, the logic is quite sound. In 2015 when the cap goes up and you have some Fleener type wanting perceived market value, for example, he would have gotten more than Hernandez assuming the production is similar.

    Hence, why BB was trying to pay ahead of market. These are things that you really can't fault. I am not saying you are, but if you're nitpicking in terms of saying "I would draft the move TE because you can find a Hernandez talent in ever draft", then we disagree.

    Hernandez was a 1st rd pick without the weed or immaturity issues.  Dustin Keller was a 1st rd pick, for example and he's nowhere near Hernandez level.



    Short, middle, long/outside part of the field. I personally don't think ah was a threat on the outside at least not like a true wideout. He was better there using him like you mentioned using welker there. Hern worked the short and middle like welker. I don't think he added anything on the outside. 

    PI know ah was a unique talent, but honestly I think he was somewhat overrated. I think with bb and tb coaching them up and tb slinging the ball, they could have taken great advantage of either ertz and Fleener. I think either of those kids are as athletic as Hernandez. 

    again, I am not armchairing. I am saying my approach out of the gate would be a bit different. 



    At 6'1 against a smaller nickel he's a weapon on the outside, yes.



    Okay but they didn't use him on the outside running anything resembling a longer type route where speed, positioning, hands and jumping ability come into play. He could out muscle a smaller db or out quicken a bigger lb, but he ain't going long for a reason. He had limits just like welkie.



    Less limits than Welkie, though, which is the point.  Outside doesn't mean "go long".



    Yes I get it, but I was saying we need an outside the numbers long threat. We didn't have it. Splitting Hern outsid and having him run a slant where welker and maybe Gronk are operating is where I originally stated as I saw the issue. I think you did too? 

    Agree that Hern was more versatile, but his versatility has limits.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: Biggest Personnel Mistake Besides Amendola

    Why do the "hindsight being 20/20" discussions occur so often when it comes to BB and his personnel decisions?  IMHO, there is some "GM wannabe" who believes they know better and simply want to express it.  Drafting and signing players is a judgement game.  What they bring to the table is not fully known until game time, and in some cases, showed up in training camp.  Also, who knows what the mindset of the player will be once signed and "got paid".

    Look at some of the biggest gaffs we have seen with this team over the years.  Big name players who showed excellent promise when coming from another team, on which they played extremely well, and caused Pats fans to salivate over the thought of being here.  Once here, all that promise went up like a candle being blown out.  The names escape me, but, I know many here can rattle them off.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: Biggest Personnel Mistake Besides Amendola

    In response to agcsbill's comment:

    Why do the "hindsight being 20/20" discussions occur so often when it comes to BB and his personnel decisions?  IMHO, there is some "GM wannabe" who believes they know better and simply want to express it.  Drafting and signing players is a judgement game.  What they bring to the table is not fully known until game time, and in some cases, showed up in training camp.  Also, who knows what the mindset of the player will be once signed and "got paid".

    Look at some of the biggest gaffs we have seen with this team over the years.  Big name players who showed excellent promise when coming from another team, on which they played extremely well, and caused Pats fans to salivate over the thought of being here.  Once here, all that promise went up like a candle being blown out.  The names escape me, but, I know many here can rattle them off.



    Because that's human nature. Same thing happens on every team in every sport. It's our job as fans. akin to questioning your elected officials on their decisions. Doesnt mean you are any less patriotic. in fact, i would argue the opposite applies. its our job. Bb is great, but he is fallible. God knows he has a very tough job that requires many balls in the air. 

    i can't speak for others that question bb, but my motivation is just to have the best team possible. Generally he has made some great decisions. My outline above on what I would have done with the offense is not a slight of bb. Just an opinion. I love the pats either way, whoever they pick, whatever their recorD.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from LittleTimmy31. Show LittleTimmy31's posts

    Re: Biggest Personnel Mistake Besides Amendola

    Yeah, Vereen may be more talented than Woodhead, but if Vereen can't stay healthy and in the lineup, what good is he? At least DW was available throughout the seasons he played for us.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: Biggest Personnel Mistake Besides Amendola

    Patslifer...  then the thinking going on here questioning BBs decisions is occurring in the fan base of every team in the NFL about their GMs etc..   I agree, to question is fine and appears to come more from a desire to get an explanation from BB himself as to why he chose this player over that player etc.

    Are you also implying BB IS NOT trying to get the best team possible and only the fans who question his decisions are the only ones who feel that way?  In my mind, unless I am priviledged enough to see and read all the same information BB uses when evaluating which players to draft and/or sign, how can one truly "question" BB?  Seems this is all an excercise attempting to get answers from BB himself and that will never happen!  Just sayin'. 

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from HelmetofLeather. Show HelmetofLeather's posts

    Re: Biggest Personnel Mistake Besides Amendola

    To whomever started this thread. Go through all 32 teams drafts, FA signings, trades, FA's who left then take all those teams combined records over the last 15 yrs, then take the number of SB wins, appearances, Divisions won, playoffs, winning seasons vs losing seasons and then take all those stats and see how this has anything to do with 5 - 1.......

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from AyyyBoston. Show AyyyBoston's posts

    Re: Biggest Personnel Mistake Besides Amendola

    In response to Harvey-Wallbanger's comment:

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    Woody would have been nice, but if Vereen stays healthy, I like his potential a bit more.

    Also, I think many thought Woodhead would be a Charger if not resigned by the Patriots...SD has been looking for their Sproles replacement ever since they stupidly let him get away.



    True. They miss sproles.



    I think Woodhead's addition is one of a few reasons why Rivers is having a bounce back season so far...having a good receiver out of the backfield (Sproles, Woodhead) has always been a part of his game it seems.



    I just don't see what that does, personally. Ryan Matthews was supposed to be that guy.

    SD won't make the playoffs from that division and an AFC South or AFC North the way it is there.

    I guess if you have Rivers in fantasy, then great.  I think Woodhead is just a better Ryan Matthews.

     



    I don't really know either, but for some reasons, it seems to be true for Rivers. His best years were when Sproles was there (and their O-Line did not stink as much). 

    I agree that SD is not a playoff team. My point is simply that Rivers seems to be playing better this year than the last couple of years. 72.6% completion percentage, 108.7 QB rating, 14 TD with 5 INT. I know stats do not tell the whole story, but so far, he has shown significant improvement in his QB play oer the last 2 or so years.

     
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    Re: Biggest Personnel Mistake Besides Amendola

    I really wish the edit button would work...

     
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    Re: Biggest Personnel Mistake Besides Amendola

    I actually forget about Tolbert. He was a good player for them too.

     

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Biggest Personnel Mistake Besides Amendola

    In response to agcsbill's comment:

    Why do the "hindsight being 20/20" discussions occur so often when it comes to BB and his personnel decisions?  IMHO, there is some "GM wannabe" who believes they know better and simply want to express it.  Drafting and signing players is a judgement game.  What they bring to the table is not fully known until game time, and in some cases, showed up in training camp.  Also, who knows what the mindset of the player will be once signed and "got paid".

    Look at some of the biggest gaffs we have seen with this team over the years.  Big name players who showed excellent promise when coming from another team, on which they played extremely well, and caused Pats fans to salivate over the thought of being here.  Once here, all that promise went up like a candle being blown out.  The names escape me, but, I know many here can rattle them off.



    I think there are a couple different types of hindsight. Things like we should of signed player 'x' or drafted player 'y' I agree you never know how they would fit into a team. But, hindsight like we should have signed Woodhead or Welker because you already know how they would have fit is something completely different. Esp if you say it before the season starts. And then there is they I don't want to sign player 'x' because they are injury prone and then the player gets injured which I don't think is bad hindsight either. I mean if a player is consistently injured and you wonder why you signed him and then it turns out he gets injured is that really hindsight?

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcherbrook. Show Fletcherbrook's posts

    Re: Biggest Personnel Mistake Besides Amendola

    In response to Harvey-Wallbanger's comment:

    In response to jimmytantric's comment:

    In response to CHAMPSXLVIII's comment:

    Picking up Leon Washington and letting Danny Woodhead go




    I can understand letting Woodhead go due to Vareen-but if the Wes Welker thing was due to an Ego thing between him and BB then it makes it yough to swallow and explain a million or so a year difference between DA and WES-esp. if WW goes on to win a SB with the Broncos?



    You think Denver and that awful D is a SB D?  What about Gomer 3-9 outdoors in the postseason?  The SB is in NJ.  A blizzard is predicted. Looks like Welkie's agent didn't put Wes in the best position to win a SB. He just took the biggest offer.

    Irony is, Welker in Denver makes their D so much worse.  Never improved the D. 



    Now your a meteorologist? With a 4 month extended forecast. Wow. You are special. 

    Why even repeat something as hokey as a weather prediction 4 months from now? Napoleon Again.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Biggest Personnel Mistake Besides Amendola

    In response to agcsbill's comment:

    Patslifer...  then the thinking going on here questioning BBs decisions is occurring in the fan base of every team in the NFL about their GMs etc..   I agree, to question is fine and appears to come more from a desire to get an explanation from BB himself as to why he chose this player over that player etc.

    Are you also implying BB IS NOT trying to get the best team possible and only the fans who question his decisions are the only ones who feel that way?  In my mind, unless I am priviledged enough to see and read all the same information BB uses when evaluating which players to draft and/or sign, how can one truly "question" BB?  Seems this is all an excercise attempting to get answers from BB himself and that will never happen!  Just sayin'. 



    In some cases I think BB does get in his own way. His explaination of way he wouldn't trade up for J Jones because Baldwin was the same player for better value shows that at times. It's not that he doesn't think it's in the best interests of the team but maybe that he does things not in the best interest because of a conflicted thought process. For example 06' letting WRs walk he in a subtle way admitted was a mistake that he corrected in 07'. I think letting Woodhead go for pretty much no cap savings for Washington I think was a mistake. It's hard to argue letting Woodhead go for a 1 dimensional (KR) RB who wasn't as productive for less than a mil was in the best interests of the team. Or spending mid round pick after mid round pick on aging/failed low risk vets instead of singing more proven FAs was in the best interests. Or replacing a proven vet WR with a injury prone one for minimal savings and leaving 1 carry over at the WR position might not have been in the best interests of the team this year. I think there are cases you can say that he didn't always act in the best interest of the team from an outside perspective vs what his value system says was the best interest for his team but you can say that about any coach/GM in the league. It's when a fan sees it's not in the best interest from an outside perspective, like lifer said, fans tend to point them out.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from expertmike. Show expertmike's posts

    Re: Biggest Personnel Mistake Besides Amendola

    In response to zeitgeist49's comment:

     The biggest personnel mistake is allowing BB to remain as GM. So many head scratching decisions by Belichick year after year. And b/c we have TB and winning records every year, BB's ineptitude as GM is tolerated. As bad as Belichick's draft record is, his efforts in free agency are even worse. The last several years of Brady's career will be wasted thanks to BB's rigid value approach.



    +============================

    +Best answer. Fix the problem at it's source. 

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from HelmetofLeather. Show HelmetofLeather's posts

    Re: Biggest Personnel Mistake Besides Amendola

    In response to expertmike's comment:

    In response to zeitgeist49's comment:

     The biggest personnel mistake is allowing BB to remain as GM. So many head scratching decisions by Belichick year after year. And b/c we have TB and winning records every year, BB's ineptitude as GM is tolerated. As bad as Belichick's draft record is, his efforts in free agency are even worse. The last several years of Brady's career will be wasted thanks to BB's rigid value approach.



    +============================

    +Best answer. Fix the problem at it's source. 

     



    I think the once again Non GM Scott Pioli must share in some of BB the GM's failures. After NE gave the "Hot" Pioli a contract extension after several teams inquiries about hiring him to be their GM, Pioli's drafts starting with 2006 produced such 1st thru 4th round gems as

    2006 1st round     Maroney

             2nd round    Chad Jackson

             3rd round     David Thomas

             4th round     Garrett Mills, Ghost

    2007 1st round     Merriweather

              4th round     Kareem Brown

    2008  1st round     Mayo

              2nd round   Wheatley

              3rd round    Crable , O'Connell 

              4th round    Wilhite

    2009 The year he helped prepare until hired by the Chiefs 4 months before the draft

              2st round    Chung, Brace , Butler , Vollmer

              3rd round    Tate, McKenzie

              4th round    Ohrnberger

    Since then BB the GM 

    2010  1st round   McCourty

               2nd round  Gronk, Cunningham, Spikes

               3rd round  Price

               4th round  Hernandez 

    2011   1st round  Solder

               2nd round Dowling, Vereen

               3rd round  Ridley, Mallett

    2012  1st round  Jones, Hightower

               2nd round Wilson

               3rd round Bequette

    2013  2nd round Collins, Dobson

               3rd round  Ryan, Harmon

               4th round Boyce

    The draft will always be a crap shoot but when you add the number of UDFA's to the mix, BB the sole GM maybe isn't as bad as some like to think. Is it genius or worthy of GM of the year awards.........no, but it's not the Land of Busts the negative ones would lead you to believe.........thoughts?

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from glenr. Show glenr's posts

    Re: Biggest Personnel Mistake Besides Amendola

    In response to CHAMPSXLVIII's comment:

    Picking up Leon Washington and letting Danny Woodhead go




    Yeah because they should pay that much for a #4 back. Idiot

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Biggest Personnel Mistake Besides Amendola

    I agree Vareen is a better prospect than Woodhead, but woodhead plays...Vareen gets injured...big difference.

    Signing Amendola and not retaining Welker (or getting someone else) is ridiculous.

     
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