"Brady going back to the open receiver" nonsense.

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    "Brady going back to the open receiver" nonsense.

    How many ppg in the playoffs did they score this way? Then, how many of those scores were defensive and how many were assisted by the fact that they were a turnover machine in the playoffs?

     

    Everyone who says going back to this style remembers everything incorrectly.

    2001: Offensive points scored: 16, 17, 13

    2003: Offensive points scored: 17, 24, 32

    2004: Offensive points scored: 20, 34, 24

    2005: Offensive points scored: 28, 13

    2006: Offensive points scored, 31, 24, 27

     

    Here's a couple of things for some of you to remember. Maybe outside of 2004, those offenses were not great at all. Stick those offenses on this team, and they will lose in the first round.

     

     

    For everyone who says that Wes has handicapped the offense, realize that they actually used to win playoff games where the offense scored under 20 points. And in some of the games where they scored over 20, it was because the defense put the offense in great field position OR gave them extra possessions.

     

    This isn't a case of addition by subtraction. The Patriots aren't going to become an offense where everybody gets 50 balls or whatever, this just means Gronk and Hern will get slightly more looks each...and if Gronk gets hurt again, it means Hern will just get a bunch of the targets that Wes used to get.

     

    It still comes down to the defense. If Ty Law doesn't make the plays he made in the playoffs, or if McGinest doesn't get those sacks, people would remember that in those championship years, that offensive system was not better than what we have had lately.

     

    I'm still holding out hope, because there are still some domino's to drop. But I do believe the offense will be slightly worse next season. But it's not about what the offense does, never has been for me during this offseason. It's about what BB is going to do about the defense.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from seattlepat70. Show seattlepat70's posts

    Re:

    Situational football. They were not scoring a lot of points per game in general. The ability to find the open man did not apply to the entire game in general. However, he showed excellence at it during crunch time: Last 1.5 minutes of SB against the Rams; Last quarter shoot out vs CAR. 

    Recently, when they get to the last minutes and the score is close, TB has shown tendency to force the ball usually to WW. Not 100% but close enough that the good Ds gain an advantage by anticipating it.

    I don't want to speak for others, but I would gladly trade all the scoring and yards records for getting back that ability to elevate his performance during crunch time in the playoffs. To me that really defined TB's legend; not all these recent records.

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re:

    I'm just curious as to which open recievers he will be throwing to?

    They cannot be done here.  If so, they are screwed.

    Defense needs to be fixed, big time, and yet the receiving core is pathetic.

    LLoyd may also be gone.  Te's often injured.  Tom is a year older.  UGH

    Depth Chart

    1. Danny Amendola. The newest Patriot projects to have a role comparable to Wes Welker's in New England, as he has the skills to play in the slot and can align as a flanker or "Z" receiver.

    2. Brandon Lloyd. Lloyd served as an "X" or split-end receiver in the Patriots' offense last season, working primarily on the perimeter (the team occasionally used him on interior receiver screens). If the team picks up his roster bonus due this week, that's an indication he'll stick around through at least 2013.

    3. Matthew Slater. The drop-off comes here, as Slater is a limited receiver who can work from a "Z" alignment. He's at his best running down the field vertically, though he likely won't play a big role on offense in 2013.

    4. Jeremy Ebert. The 2012 seventh-round draft pick was limited in training camp due to injury and eventually waived. He signed back on with the team and should have a chance to compete as a "Z" this offseason.

    5. Kamar Aiken. We didn't see much of Aiken once he was signed to the team's practice squad, but he has the frame to project as an "X" receiver.

    6. Andre Holmes. We know this much about Holmes: he's long and fast, and that's something the Patriots don't have much of in their receiver group right now. He's built like an "X" and is a player we look forward to seeing on the field.

    Remaining free agents: Julian Edelman, Deion Branch, Donte' Stallworth. Edelman is the player to watch most closely in free agency, as he'd be a quality re-signing for the team. He has good versatility and athleticism, and was playing the best football of his career prior to a season-ending injury in December.

     

     

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from CaptainZdeno33. Show CaptainZdeno33's posts

    Re:

    I posted the turnover numbers a few months ago. They were forcing 2, 3, 4 turnovers in just about every game in the 2001, 2003, 2004 playoffs versus very few in the recent years.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Asher77. Show Asher77's posts

    Re:

    We scored alot of points with Wes and a better D would have made a big diff in the playoffs. I like Wes and I do not see him as a problem or a guy who needs to be replaced. That being said I think we can also score alot of points without Wes and we still do not have a problem. Wes got alot of targets, those targets will be spread out now to others positions. If Amendola proves to be Wes's equal in this offense he will get them, great, if not then it will be more touches for Vereen, more runs for Ridley, a couple more throws a game to the non existent outside reciever not named Loyd. Maybe Gronk will have a couple more high catch games that if it were last year Wes might have been upset he only got 5 targets in the game?

    Going to the open receiver is a bad way to say it. We threw to Wes alot because he was open. Spreading the touches more evenly across the offense as a whole is more what I am thinking. This could possibly make us less predictable in big games and give our guys not named Wes more confidence in those big games that there number will be called and that they can respond since they had the need to do so in the regular season.

    There have been other factors mentioned about Amendola, younger, smaller cap hit next year, could be more sure handed ( seen some amazing catches on vids ), might still be playing at his highest lvl for us in 5 years.

    We don't know all the factors here but considering what we do know it does seem that the Wes vs. Amendola debate is closer to an overall tie than a reason to find a high bridge. Everyone liked Wes, i get that. We wont know how good this move was till next years playoffs, we win it all and all is forgiven. Despite this move i think we all still feel like we will be one of a handfull of teams in the hunt come next December. 

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re:

    In response to seattlepat70's comment:

    Situational football. They were not scoring a lot of points per game in general. The ability to find the open man did not apply to the entire game in general. However, he showed excellence at it during crunch time: Last 1.5 minutes of SB against the Rams; Last quarter shoot out vs CAR. 

    Recently, when they get to the last minutes and the score is close, TB has shown tendency to force the ball usually to WW. Not 100% but close enough that the good Ds gain an advantage by anticipating it.

    I don't want to speak for others, but I would gladly trade all the scoring and yards records for getting back that ability to elevate his performance during crunch time in the playoffs. To me that really defined TB's legend; not all these recent records.

     



    Example? Last time they were in a similar situation (Super Bowl 46) I remember drops by Hern and Branch

    Sf game I remember him going to Woody...but before that, he was airing it out to Lloyd.

    2009 4th and 2 game, he went straight to Faulk...didn't even look to Wes.

    And in those two cases, Brady forced the ball to those players...so is it really just a Wes thing?

    Brady forced it to Lloyd for most of the season.

    2011 Championship, Brady forced an over the shoulder pass to Edelman that got picked

    My least favorite, forced a deep ball to Branch...with Sherman covering him.

     

    This isn't just a Wes thing. Brady forces it all the time. If you're going to force it, then force it to your best players. When Gronk, Welker and Hern are all healthy together, I would say there is a fair distribution between the three. Problem is, all three were rarely on the field together in 2012.

    Hern got 20 targets to Welkers 9 in the SF game.

     

    One more thing: Pats don't even have a chance for a GW drive in '01 if they played with this defense. Improve the defense, the offense should get more opportunities and the running game should indirectly be affected in a positive manner.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Iceman4. Show Iceman4's posts

    Re:

    I say sign Edelman...he's your insurance in case DA goes down. If he isn't asking for too much.

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re:

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:

    I'm just curious as to which open recievers he will be throwing to?

    They cannot be done here.  If so, they are screwed.

    Defense needs to be fixed, big time, and yet the receiving core is pathetic.

    LLoyd may also be gone.  Te's often injured.  Tom is a year older.  UGH

    Depth Chart

    1. Danny Amendola. The newest Patriot projects to have a role comparable to Wes Welker's in New England, as he has the skills to play in the slot and can align as a flanker or "Z" receiver.

    2. Brandon Lloyd. Lloyd served as an "X" or split-end receiver in the Patriots' offense last season, working primarily on the perimeter (the team occasionally used him on interior receiver screens). If the team picks up his roster bonus due this week, that's an indication he'll stick around through at least 2013.

    3. Matthew Slater. The drop-off comes here, as Slater is a limited receiver who can work from a "Z" alignment. He's at his best running down the field vertically, though he likely won't play a big role on offense in 2013.

    4. Jeremy Ebert. The 2012 seventh-round draft pick was limited in training camp due to injury and eventually waived. He signed back on with the team and should have a chance to compete as a "Z" this offseason.

    5. Kamar Aiken. We didn't see much of Aiken once he was signed to the team's practice squad, but he has the frame to project as an "X" receiver.

    6. Andre Holmes. We know this much about Holmes: he's long and fast, and that's something the Patriots don't have much of in their receiver group right now. He's built like an "X" and is a player we look forward to seeing on the field.

    Remaining free agents: Julian Edelman, Deion Branch, Donte' Stallworth. Edelman is the player to watch most closely in free agency, as he'd be a quality re-signing for the team. He has good versatility and athleticism, and was playing the best football of his career prior to a season-ending injury in December.

     

     

     



    Next point that I meant to get too. We still have crumby WRs!

    I said it in another post, but what's going to end up happening is that Gronk and Hern will just eat up some of Wes' old targets.

    Selective memory from Pats fans.

    2009, wasn't Sam Aiken the #3 WR? Watson the #1 TE? Did it occur to anyone that those guys aren't very good, and maybe that's why Brady didn't spread the ball around?

    2010, Wes still got nearly 40 more receptions than the next guy. Brady and the offense also played at an ultra efficient level, so it wasn't a huge problem

    2011, I thought the share between, Gronk, Welker and Hernandez was perfect. Of course, once Gronk goes down, then the fact that they didn't have a real running game or another WR came back to haunt them.

    2012, One TE was always hurt and Edelman and Stallworth got hurt while Branch really can't do much.

     

    Can't spread the ball around if you have no WR depth. That wasn't Wes' fault

     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re:

    In response to RidingWithTheKing's comment:

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

     

    How many ppg in the playoffs did they score this way? Then, how many of those scores were defensive and how many were assisted by the fact that they were a turnover machine in the playoffs?

     

    Everyone who says going back to this style remembers everything incorrectly.

    2001: Offensive points scored: 16, 17, 13

    2003: Offensive points scored: 17, 24, 32

    2004: Offensive points scored: 20, 34, 24

    2005: Offensive points scored: 28, 13

    2006: Offensive points scored, 31, 24, 27

     

    Here's a couple of things for some of you to remember. Maybe outside of 2004, those offenses were not great at all. Stick those offenses on this team, and they will lose in the first round.

     

     

    For everyone who says that Wes has handicapped the offense, realize that they actually used to win playoff games where the offense scored under 20 points. And in some of the games where they scored over 20, it was because the defense put the offense in great field position OR gave them extra possessions.

     

    This isn't a case of addition by subtraction. The Patriots aren't going to become an offense where everybody gets 50 balls or whatever, this just means Gronk and Hern will get slightly more looks each...and if Gronk gets hurt again, it means Hern will just get a bunch of the targets that Wes used to get.

     

    It still comes down to the defense. If Ty Law doesn't make the plays he made in the playoffs, or if McGinest doesn't get those sacks, people would remember that in those championship years, that offensive system was not better than what we have had lately.

     

    I'm still holding out hope, because there are still some domino's to drop. But I do believe the offense will be slightly worse next season. But it's not about what the offense does, never has been for me during this offseason. It's about what BB is going to do about the defense.

     



    First of all, toss out 2001. We all know he was a game manager in his "rookie" year that year.

     

    Second, note how 2003 and 2004 show higher scores, but they're also games where he didn't throw picks.

    Third, the blowout in 2005 was vs Jax at home. Jax is a warm weather team. The 13 points in DEnver featured 5 NE turnovers and a Brady pick 6 in the shotgun spread base with Dillon on one foot and too much Faulk, which proves my premise even more.

    So, you can't use a 5 turnover game in Denver as a barometer.  

    IMO, NE's offense ran the best in 2003, 2004 2010 and 2012.  If I had to rank them, I would go like this:

    2004

    2010

    2003

    2012

    I leave out 2007 because it's an aberration season.  Give me 2010 and 2004 with a pinch of 2007 and we win the SB.

    Not a coincidence that two toys Brady got in 2007 (Moss and Welker) were overused after 2007 ti the point one guy got traded and we saw two more non SB ending seasons in 2011 and 2012 because Welker was used too much already with no real perimeter balance.

    Get Brady back under center more for playaction on the flanks, because NE is loaded down the middle with Gronk, Hern or Amendola.

     

     



    2004...do you think it helped that the Pats had a defense that was able to hold that Colts offense to 3 points? If the 2012 Pats defense held the Ravens to 3 points, I doubt Brady throws it 54 times and I would imagine they run it a bit more.

    AFC Championship game, they got up on the Steelers 24-3 (7 coming from the defense). Most importantly, they shut down the Steelers offense.

     

    Easier to have Brady only throw it 25ish times and have Dillon grind it out when you have a defense that prevents you from falling behind or allows you more opportunities to get on the field.

    2010 is just as much of an abberation season as 2007. I doubt Brady is going to have another season where he goes 300+ straight passes without a pick again.

     

    Defensive play has a large impact on offensive balance.

     
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  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re:

    This statement couldn't be more true!

    ""Defensive play has a large impact on offensive balance.""

    Yet, there are some goons here ( especially the King goon) that can't or refuse to admit that and think the O should be running the show WITHOUT any support from the D. 

    It's beyond crazy!

     

     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re:

    In response to RidingWithTheKing's comment:

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

     

    In response to RidingWithTheKing's comment:

     

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

     

    How many ppg in the playoffs did they score this way? Then, how many of those scores were defensive and how many were assisted by the fact that they were a turnover machine in the playoffs?

     

    Everyone who says going back to this style remembers everything incorrectly.

    2001: Offensive points scored: 16, 17, 13

    2003: Offensive points scored: 17, 24, 32

    2004: Offensive points scored: 20, 34, 24

    2005: Offensive points scored: 28, 13

    2006: Offensive points scored, 31, 24, 27

     

    Here's a couple of things for some of you to remember. Maybe outside of 2004, those offenses were not great at all. Stick those offenses on this team, and they will lose in the first round.

     

     

    For everyone who says that Wes has handicapped the offense, realize that they actually used to win playoff games where the offense scored under 20 points. And in some of the games where they scored over 20, it was because the defense put the offense in great field position OR gave them extra possessions.

     

    This isn't a case of addition by subtraction. The Patriots aren't going to become an offense where everybody gets 50 balls or whatever, this just means Gronk and Hern will get slightly more looks each...and if Gronk gets hurt again, it means Hern will just get a bunch of the targets that Wes used to get.

     

    It still comes down to the defense. If Ty Law doesn't make the plays he made in the playoffs, or if McGinest doesn't get those sacks, people would remember that in those championship years, that offensive system was not better than what we have had lately.

     

    I'm still holding out hope, because there are still some domino's to drop. But I do believe the offense will be slightly worse next season. But it's not about what the offense does, never has been for me during this offseason. It's about what BB is going to do about the defense.

     



    First of all, toss out 2001. We all know he was a game manager in his "rookie" year that year.

     

    Second, note how 2003 and 2004 show higher scores, but they're also games where he didn't throw picks.

    Third, the blowout in 2005 was vs Jax at home. Jax is a warm weather team. The 13 points in DEnver featured 5 NE turnovers and a Brady pick 6 in the shotgun spread base with Dillon on one foot and too much Faulk, which proves my premise even more.

    So, you can't use a 5 turnover game in Denver as a barometer.  

    IMO, NE's offense ran the best in 2003, 2004 2010 and 2012.  If I had to rank them, I would go like this:

    2004

    2010

    2003

    2012

    I leave out 2007 because it's an aberration season.  Give me 2010 and 2004 with a pinch of 2007 and we win the SB.

    Not a coincidence that two toys Brady got in 2007 (Moss and Welker) were overused after 2007 ti the point one guy got traded and we saw two more non SB ending seasons in 2011 and 2012 because Welker was used too much already with no real perimeter balance.

    Get Brady back under center more for playaction on the flanks, because NE is loaded down the middle with Gronk, Hern or Amendola.

     

     

     



    2004...do you think it helped that the Pats had a defense that was able to hold that Colts offense to 3 points? If the 2012 Pats defense held the Ravens to 3 points, I doubt Brady throws it 54 times and I would imagine they run it a bit more.

     

    AFC Championship game, they got up on the Steelers 24-3 (7 coming from the defense). Most importantly, they shut down the Steelers offense.

     

    Easier to have Brady only throw it 25ish times and have Dillon grind it out when you have a defense that prevents you from falling behind or allows you more opportunities to get on the field.

    2010 is just as much of an abberation season as 2007. I doubt Brady is going to have another season where he goes 300+ straight passes without a pick again.

     

    Defensive play has a large impact on offensive balance.

     



    Your last statment is one of the dumbest things I've ever read here. No offense. 

     

    The only way that is true is if the D allows a bunch of points in the first half. That's not what has been going on here, dude.

    3 points in SB 42, 7 in SB 46, 7 in this last year's AFC title game. NE had LEADS in all of these games. LEADS.  They weren't trailing. We ended up CHOOSING to throw 45 times in these games. CHOOSING.  

    FAIL

    Christ, even in the 2010 divisonal loss to the Jets, it was 7 before the CHung fake punt fumble in short field for the Jets to get their second TD before half. It was 14-11 at the end of the 3rd qtr for chrissakes and Brady is staring over at O'Brien looking for more shotgun spread calls to go 3 and out on.

    IN an offensive era like this EVERY SINGLE Pats fan should be expecting more from our QB and offense and a bit less from the D.  Are you seriously expecting holding an offense today to under 10 point in a playoff game?

    Are your freaking kidding me?  What league are you watching?

    BB just forced the second divorce for Brady in 3 seasons because Brady was proving the weapons he was given werent' working well enough for him.

     



    When did I ever make mention of the points allowed? It's about the defense making plays.

    You made mention of how the defense in the early days was better rested...howabout the fact they they did not force a single 3 and out in the Super Bowl? Howabout the Giants defense forcing a crucial safety and an interception.

    2007? Why did the Giants win? Cause the defense gave Manning time to perform his goofy game winning drives. Much the way the old Pats defense gave the Brady an opportunity for the game winning drive.

     

    I'm not saying you're going to go back to the old days where you run it 30+times, but defense does play a role in how you play offensively.

    Playing with a stout defense as opposed to a leaky one can play a difference when it comes to choosing to throw the ball away or trying to force it.

    It's an offensive era, and offense matters more, but don't disregard defense. I can name you mutiple defensive plays made by every Super Bowl team that made the difference between them winning a championship.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re:

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

     

    How many ppg in the playoffs did they score this way? Then, how many of those scores were defensive and how many were assisted by the fact that they were a turnover machine in the playoffs?

     

    Everyone who says going back to this style remembers everything incorrectly.

    2001: Offensive points scored: 16, 17, 13

    2003: Offensive points scored: 17, 24, 32

    2004: Offensive points scored: 20, 34, 24

    2005: Offensive points scored: 28, 13

    2006: Offensive points scored, 31, 24, 27

     

    Here's a couple of things for some of you to remember. Maybe outside of 2004, those offenses were not great at all. Stick those offenses on this team, and they will lose in the first round.

     

     

    For everyone who says that Wes has handicapped the offense, realize that they actually used to win playoff games where the offense scored under 20 points. And in some of the games where they scored over 20, it was because the defense put the offense in great field position OR gave them extra possessions.

     

    This isn't a case of addition by subtraction. The Patriots aren't going to become an offense where everybody gets 50 balls or whatever, this just means Gronk and Hern will get slightly more looks each...and if Gronk gets hurt again, it means Hern will just get a bunch of the targets that Wes used to get.

     

    It still comes down to the defense. If Ty Law doesn't make the plays he made in the playoffs, or if McGinest doesn't get those sacks, people would remember that in those championship years, that offensive system was not better than what we have had lately.

     

    I'm still holding out hope, because there are still some domino's to drop. But I do believe the offense will be slightly worse next season. But it's not about what the offense does, never has been for me during this offseason. It's about what BB is going to do about the defense.

     




     

     

    We didnt have 2 dynamic TE's then either. I recall Jermain Wiggins and Rod Rutledge. It was so bad, we had to sub one in and one out to runblock and pass and thats why they fted Graham in 02, but he turned out to be just mainly a blocker and then tried with Watson who turned out to be just a reciever and not a great one. We now have the best TE in the biz and the best TE/WR in the game to go along with a much improved Brady who only managed the game then. Sorry, I disagree. Going to Wes 12 times a game won us how many rings again??

     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re:

    In response to RidingWithTheKing's comment:

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:

     

    This statement couldn't be more true!

    ""Defensive play has a large impact on offensive balance.""

    Yet, there are some goons here ( especially the King goon) that can't or refuse to admit that and think the O should be running the show WITHOUT any support from the D. 

    It's beyond crazy!

     

     



    What does the D have to do with balance on offense in an offensive era? Many of the blown games by our team in recent years were WITH LEADS in the game, where the D was holdoing to 10-14 pionts through 3 qtrs.

     

    IN this era, you dictate with an offense, not a defense. QB/Offensive League. Our D doesn't tell our offense to pass 45 times and be imbalanced.

    Christ, you psychos need help, NOW!

    You call me a goon, but I've nailed every single stage of this the whole time.  Amendola will help the offense because he line up inside and out. Welker couldn't do that.

    Brady's buddy/buddy friendship with Welker also was a detriment to the flow of the offense and it made it easy for Ds to take out Welker with the knowledge they are buddies and what our preference would be.

    Ever hear about deception in football? Well, our offense SUCKED at that for the last 3-5 years (minus Week 4-17 in 2010).

    SUCKED at it.

     




    Duh, You just said it.  The D can't hold a lead.

    When you have a D that can't hold a 2 score lead you try to extend that lead. 

    It's no different than an offense playing from behind because you can expect that you will be eventually and 99% of the time it has come to fruition.

    When a D can't get off the field and limits your scoring opportunities, you also go to a pass first O because you can't waste more time as the D is already eating it up in ELEPHANT size chunks.  High scoring offenses need an acceptable amount of possessions to score, NOT LESS!   Scoring on 40% of your drives will lead to higher scores with 12 possessions (normal) as apposed to 40% of 8 possessions.  The only way to beat that is to score on more than 40% of your drives, as the Gints did against a poor defense.

    When an opposing team recognizes this or game plans for it, it makes you easier to defend.

     
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