In Response to Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking:

Both Big Ben and A-Rod benefited from their defenses bailing them out of poor performances.  As a result, right or wrong, they are getting credited with the victory, especially Big Ben inspite of his horrid 2nd half performance.  When your team wins, and it is in the SB, the spot light shines and the love affairs begin.

In Response to Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking:

So what you are saying is when a quality QB is lost, a team deteriorates?  Ok, I get that.  Most here agree that the colts would be a 5-6 win team without Manning.  So, I don't know how any of that relates to your conclusion that a QB leads a team to greatness when all of the examples you provided were of superbowl losers (NE, Arizona, Indy).  Maybe without saying it you were harkening back to Brady's glory days when he wasn't as good but the defense was.  But if you were doing that, then it would play into my point and make yours worthless. 

So really what are you trying to say?

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In Response to Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking:

In Response to Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking:

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oh,  I guess I really didn't get it did I?  But then again, how could I?  Your example was cited only of how the losing superbowl teams of the past 3 years fared.  2 of them lost their QB and didn't make the playoffs.  One of them (the colts)  did not lose their QB but did make the playoffs.  
 
You went on to say, ridiculously, "with Brady the pats...possibly contend for the title".  This is ridiculous, of course, because following his injury, the pats have been one and done, at home, two years in a row.  So, where's that magic? 

I mean with brady being so great, and I think he is better than he was 01-04, how come the team that he leads to greatness has not tasted that sweet success since?  How could the man that leads his team to greatness and is better than he was when he was winning those superbowls not repeat that achievement since? 

As for your stats, did you know that the guy who leads his team to greatness has a lower QB rating in the playoffs than the one you malign.  Clearly, its not that stat that demonstrates how Brady leads his team to greatness while Manning does not, right?

Isn't the record a team achievement and not specifically a brady achievement?  I wonder how Bruschi, Vrabel and McGinest, and Seymour, Harrison and Law, Wilfork and Milloy, feel about you attributing all of the team's success to Brady and none to them?

As I said before, I never said Brady didn't have quality playoff games.  I never said that.  As noted by the article I cited, there are simply some other QB's who have performed well more consistently.  Goes for Manning too. 

Ultimately, the point is that to frequently, the QB gets blamed for the losses and praised for the wins.

The premise of the article is extremely flawed.

You have to believe that adjusted yards per attempt is the only measure of a quarterbacks value to his team in order to accept the authors conclusion. 

What about other factors that affect the AYA?  Some QB's played most of their playoff games outdoors (January) Some played indoors on carpet.

Trent Dilfer?  Please!

As much as I don't like the person, Big Ben makes some clutch plays.  Often with his feet.  This is not reflected in AYA.

Favre loses games with turnovers.  The gunslinger piled up stats....then he gave games away. Not reflected in AYA.

Some QB's are carried, but the article is bad science.

In Response to Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking:

Chase, I am not sure I getting your reasoning. 

On the one hand, you suggest that great leaders lead their teams to victory, yet subsequently say that any team can win on any given Sunday.  Aren't these points somewhat contradictory?

Further, you then praise your QB for being the leader, but then provide excuses for his failure. 

I'll ask this question again: 

With brady being so great, and I think he is better than he was 01-04, how come the team that he leads to greatness has not won a superbowl since? 

lets take this slow

Cute Chase, before we take it slow, lets start with you answering my questions. 

You said: Basically what im saying is your QB is a leader of a team, Some QB's lead thier teams to greatness(Brady, Montana, Aikman) And some QB's lead their teams well until the spotlight is brightest(manning). 

How come the great leader didn't lead his team to victory in 02,05, 06, 07, 09, and 10?

Isn't Brady a better QB now than he when he won his superbowls?

Do you think players like Bruschi, Vrabel, McGinest, Harrison, Milloy, Law, Samuel, Wilfork, Seymour had a hand in the pats winning their superbowls, or was it all because of Brady?

You mention that Manning fails when the spotlight is brightest, yet his playoff QB rating (the stat that you cite for Brady's greatness) is higher than Brady's at 88.4. 

Isn't this counter to your argument that Brady leads his team to greatness while Manning does not?

Isn't a won-loss record a team achievement as opposed to an individual achievement?

In Response to Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking:

Aw chase, you seem to be getting upset over what seem to be very valid questions. Anyway, lets carry on. 

1.  you didn't answer this question - Is Brady a better QB now than he was when he won his SB's? 

2.  How does the who leadership thing work when on "any given sunday" one team can beat another team even if they have a superior leader? 

Further, as it relates to QB rating which you cited.  In the playoffs, isn't each game the most important one and just as bright as the SB?  I make this assumption because if you don't win, you don't go on, right?  So if that's the case why are we looking at just the Superbowl games.  Why not look at a larger sampling like all of their playoff games? 

You set Brady's playoff passer rating as a mark of greatness.  Its surprising you give Manning no credit for actually having a higher passer rating than Brady.  Why is that? 

Brady's playoff passer rating is 85.7.  He's had 9 playoff games above that number and 10 playoff games below that number.  Manning has had 10 playoff games above that number and 9 below.  Can we assume that the good games are the ones above and the bad games are the ones below?  If so, here's some interesting information. 

In the games where brady exceeded his average passer rating he is 8-1.  Manning is 5-5.  Is that due to Manning or some other criteria (the rest of the team's play)?

In the games where brady performed below his average passer rating, he is 6-4.  Manning is 4-5.  Brady won more games in spite of his poor performance.  Manning won some in spite of his poor performances as well. 

Ultimately the point is that factors outside of one player's performance in football (even if he is the most important player) generally have a greater influence on the game's outcome than that player's performance alone.  That's why I asked you about all of the great defensive players the pats had.  My point was that together those great defenders led the pats to victory.  Without them, the pats have had less success.  That's what's changed.  The offense is as good if not better, but the defense is not. 

You say none of those defenders have won playoff games since leaving the pats, but when they left, they didn't leave as a group to play together somewhere else.  Had that happened, they may have produced playoff and even superbowl wins.  

and just to go a little deeper

Look - In this situation, I am not trying to say Manning is better than Brady or that Brady isn't a good playoff QB. 

I am just trying to point out that you made statements that are not very defensible. 

You've defended brady while criticizing Manning, yet the stat you used to do so favors Manning.  Now you are bringing out additional things like TD's and Ints. 

What if I were to tell you that I know of 2 ints Manning had that either did not hurt the team or were not his fault.  In a home playoff game vs. SD, Manning threw and end of half hail mary bomb that was picked off.  The result was that the half ended with no point scored.  There was another int manning got against SD again but in SD (i think) where the colts were about to score a screen was thrown (soft and short) to kenton keith who stone handed it and the ball fell into an SD defender who was laying on the ground.  Regardless, even with more picks and 1 fewer TD (if correct) Manning still has a higher rating. 

What you don't have an answer for is how in 5 games manning played above Brady's average but lost, while that has happened to Brady only once. 

Here's another - based on your stats, Brady's playoff passer rating average in 2 of his superbowl years was lower than his overall playoff passer rating average, yet he won the SB.  Wouldn't you attribute those wins to something other than Brady or at least give some credit to other teammates?

Oh, and you've never answered this question.  Is Brady better now than he was when he won his superbowls? 

In Response to Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking:



actually gomer is only on that level in your mind... get a grip.... oh wait you probably already have one...

only the TMZ of sports ESPN is talking this crap.  Big small Ben has helped his team win one super bowl.  they carried him in the first one.  the only TD pass thrown in the first one was by a wr hines ward.  come on now.  break some passing records and win some super bowls with some super bowl mvp's and we can talk.  this is a joke.  As much as people want to take away from brady and credit adam v or the defense, look at ben in the big games and did he help or hurt in the super bowls.  1 and 1 in my opinion and he still hasn't won the 3rd yet.  ESPN is the TMZ of sports and turning men around the country in girls who are more interested in the soap opera of sports then the competition.  disgusting.

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In Response to Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking:


ya and you could also say...no magical helmet catch no superbowl...

so have some cake and eat it too..

In Response to Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking:


Did you just make an excuse?  I think you just made an excuse.

everyone should just put UD6 on the ignore list, that includes the other trolls too.

In Response to Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking:


read it again fluffer... youll get it...  eventually

In Response to Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking:


It's not like his D helped him out too much in SB 36 and 38, blowing large leads.

As JCour said barring a miracle catch off the side of helmet we have never seen nor will ever see again in our life, your statement would be inaccruate.

That was a go ahead TD to win the game, barring a series of good luck plays for the Giants.

As if that is some sort of barometer anyway?   Who cares?

At the very least he quickly led his team down field twice for SB victories, has two SB MVPs and has been to 4 SBs.