Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking

    In Response to Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking:
    Seems there are other QB's who have performed better when it mattered.  http://community.advancednflstats.com/2010/12/playoff-qbs-who-carry-their-teams-and.html
    Posted by UD6

    Both Big Ben and A-Rod benefited from their defenses bailing them out of poor performances.  As a result, right or wrong, they are getting credited with the victory, especially Big Ben inspite of his horrid 2nd half performance.  When your team wins, and it is in the SB, the spot light shines and the love affairs begin.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking

    In Response to Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking:
    the point is UD6 Some QB's are CONSISTENTLY on the winning team. A winning team starts at the top and rolls down. The Arizona cardinals lost 3 key players last year, there 2nd wide reciever, a good defensive player, and the QB. They went from superbowl quality, to out of the playoffs. The patriots went from 18-1 and losers of the superbowl, to 11-5 and out of the playoffs because they lost their starting QB, with Brady the pats win the AFC east again, and possibly contend for the title. Basically what im saying is your QB is a leader of a team, Some QB's lead thier teams to greatness(Brady, Montana, Aikman) And some QB's lead their teams well until the spotlight is brightest(manning) But lets ignore the 2 superbowl MVP's brady has, those games were not important.
    Posted by ChasaB

    So what you are saying is when a quality QB is lost, a team deteriorates?  Ok, I get that.  Most here agree that the colts would be a 5-6 win team without Manning.  So, I don't know how any of that relates to your conclusion that a QB leads a team to greatness when all of the examples you provided were of superbowl losers (NE, Arizona, Indy).  Maybe without saying it you were harkening back to Brady's glory days when he wasn't as good but the defense was.  But if you were doing that, then it would play into my point and make yours worthless. 

    So really what are you trying to say?
     
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  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from p-mike. Show p-mike's posts

    Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking

    In Response to Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking:
    In Response to Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking : I think the Colts win in spite of Manning.  They still win that division even if Sorgi was their QB.
    Posted by dmpc








     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from ChasaB. Show ChasaB's posts

    Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking

    In Response to Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking:
    In Response to Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking : So what you are saying is when a quality QB is lost, a team deteriorates?  Ok, I get that.  Most here agree that the colts would be a 5-6 win team without Manning.  So, I don't know how any of that relates to your conclusion that a QB leads a team to greatness when all of the examples you provided were of superbowl losers (NE, Arizona, Indy).  Maybe without saying it you were harkening back to Brady's glory days when he wasn't as good but the defense was.  But if you were doing that, then it would play into my point and make yours worthless.  So really what are you trying to say?
    Posted by UD6

    Actually you dense human being, I was referring to the fact that Brady is one of the best playoff QB's of all time. I was referring to the fact that Brady has 2 Superbowl MVPs. I was referring to the fact that has has 3 rings, had a chance at a 4th, and will put his team into a position for the next 5 years to win more.

    Lets go over this again, since you dont understand it and you seem to like facts so much.

    type in qb stats for the playoffs, just look at the links who shows up? I see alot of tom brady stats, clearly hes done something to warrent high google ranking no? Lets dig deeper on this brady fellow not even in the top ten of Qb's who play well when its important.

    YearTeamGGSPassingRushingSackedFumbles
    AttCompPctYdsY/ATDIntRtgAttYdsAvgTDSackYdsFumLost
    2001NE33976061.95725.91177.38222.8153610
    2003NE331267559.57926.35284.512181.500000
    2004NE33815567.95877.250109.4730.410011
    2005NE22633555.65428.64292.2382.7041220
    2006NE331197058.87246.15476.58182.2042220
    2007NE331097770.67376.86396.04−1−0.2085211
    2009NE11422354.81543.72349.1000032211
    2010NE11452964.42996.62189.0221.0054010
    Total191968242462.24,4076.5301685.744701.622918493

    Here are brady's post season stats. he averages 85.7. Do post season games matter? Anyone? can anyone here UD6 you seem to be a real knowledgeable person, hey man how important would you say playoff games are? 

    Lets break this down a bit: lets start with the specific things important about these stats.

    The record 14-5 thats a pretty good record id say, 3 rings. even if he keeps going 1 and done, he will still have less playoff losses then manning when he retires. think about that crazy since manning is the best of all time right?

    lets look at 2007, he went 26 of 28 in a game to make it to the afc championship. thats the best ever

    how about a post season winning streak, its 10 games. thats a record by the way

    How about completing alot of passes: superbowl 38. brady completed 32, also a record.

    But i'm sure you are not convinced. I mean lets face it, hes lost his last 3 playoff games spanning 4 years. he lost the superbowl to the giants(a freak catch), he lost to a hungry ravens team, and he lost to the jets one of the top 4 teams in the nfl and one of the only 2 teams to beat them in the regular season.

    Look at the QB's your list has above Brady, tell me honestly which of those would you rather have on your team in the playoffs?
     
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  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking

    oh,  I guess I really didn't get it did I?  But then again, how could I?  Your example was cited only of how the losing superbowl teams of the past 3 years fared.  2 of them lost their QB and didn't make the playoffs.  One of them (the colts)  did not lose their QB but did make the playoffs.  
     
    You went on to say, ridiculously, "with Brady the pats...possibly contend for the title".  This is ridiculous, of course, because following his injury, the pats have been one and done, at home, two years in a row.  So, where's that magic? 

    I mean with brady being so great, and I think he is better than he was 01-04, how come the team that he leads to greatness has not tasted that sweet success since?  How could the man that leads his team to greatness and is better than he was when he was winning those superbowls not repeat that achievement since? 

    As for your stats, did you know that the guy who leads his team to greatness has a lower QB rating in the playoffs than the one you malign.  Clearly, its not that stat that demonstrates how Brady leads his team to greatness while Manning does not, right?

    Isn't the record a team achievement and not specifically a brady achievement?  I wonder how Bruschi, Vrabel and McGinest, and Seymour, Harrison and Law, Wilfork and Milloy, feel about you attributing all of the team's success to Brady and none to them?

    As I said before, I never said Brady didn't have quality playoff games.  I never said that.  As noted by the article I cited, there are simply some other QB's who have performed well more consistently.  Goes for Manning too. 

    Ultimately, the point is that to frequently, the QB gets blamed for the losses and praised for the wins.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from bostatewarrior. Show bostatewarrior's posts

    Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking

    The premise of the article is extremely flawed.

    You have to believe that adjusted yards per attempt is the only measure of a quarterbacks value to his team in order to accept the authors conclusion. 

    What about other factors that affect the AYA?  Some QB's played most of their playoff games outdoors (January) Some played indoors on carpet.

    Trent Dilfer?  Please!

    As much as I don't like the person, Big Ben makes some clutch plays.  Often with his feet.  This is not reflected in AYA.

    Favre loses games with turnovers.  The gunslinger piled up stats....then he gave games away. Not reflected in AYA.

    Some QB's are carried, but the article is bad science.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from ChasaB. Show ChasaB's posts

    Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking

    In Response to Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking:
     You went on to say, ridiculously, "with Brady the pats...possibly contend for the title".  This is ridiculous, of course, because following his injury, the pats have been one and done, at home, two years in a row.  So, where's that magic? 


    have you ever heard the term "any given sunday"?

    what makes the NFL so great is that any team can win. the parity in the NFL is awesome. Think about this the NFC has had a different team in the superbowl for what the last nine years? 9 years, 9 different teams. You know what sets some teams apart, teams like the steelers, pats?

    Consistency at QB, and Solid leadership. Brady, Rapethlisberger

    rapeberger could join Brady is the 3 ring club. if they lose him do they make the playoffs, win in the playoffs, and then win the title? id say not likely

    Brady coming off knee surgery and missing a year led his team to the playoffs and lost in the first round.

    Brady playing on a team in a rebuilding year(completely new offense, youngest defense in the league) leads the team to the best record in the NFL, but lost in the playoffs.

    they will be a favorite again next year to win it all. nothing in life is guaranteed, but with Brady playing QB, i know the team is going to be better then most of the nfl.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking

    Chase, I am not sure I getting your reasoning. 

    On the one hand, you suggest that great leaders lead their teams to victory, yet subsequently say that any team can win on any given Sunday.  Aren't these points somewhat contradictory?

    Further, you then praise your QB for being the leader, but then provide excuses for his failure. 

    I'll ask this question again: 

    With brady being so great, and I think he is better than he was 01-04, how come the team that he leads to greatness has not won a superbowl since? 

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from ChasaB. Show ChasaB's posts

    Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking

    lets take this slow

    UD6 would you say the superbowl is an important game?
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking

    Cute Chase, before we take it slow, lets start with you answering my questions. 

    You said: Basically what im saying is your QB is a leader of a team, Some QB's lead thier teams to greatness(Brady, Montana, Aikman) And some QB's lead their teams well until the spotlight is brightest(manning). 

    How come the great leader didn't lead his team to victory in 02,05, 06, 07, 09, and 10?

    Isn't Brady a better QB now than he when he won his superbowls?

    Do you think players like Bruschi, Vrabel, McGinest, Harrison, Milloy, Law, Samuel, Wilfork, Seymour had a hand in the pats winning their superbowls, or was it all because of Brady?

    You mention that Manning fails when the spotlight is brightest, yet his playoff QB rating (the stat that you cite for Brady's greatness) is higher than Brady's at 88.4. 

    Isn't this counter to your argument that Brady leads his team to greatness while Manning does not?

    Isn't a won-loss record a team achievement as opposed to an individual achievement?

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ChasaB. Show ChasaB's posts

    Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking

    In Response to Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking:
     How come the great leader didn't lead his team to victory in 02,05, 06, 07, 09, and 10? Isn't Brady a better QB now than he when he won his superbowls?
    Because in the NFL anything can happen. the seahawks can beat the saints. 

     Do you think players like Bruschi, Vrabel, McGinest, Harrison, Milloy, Law, Samuel, Wilfork, Seymour had a hand in the pats winning their superbowls, or was it all because of Brady?
    Of course they did, its a team sport, how many playoffs games has mcginest, vrabel, law, milloy, samuel win without the patriots? im sure im mistaken but only samuel has a W in the playoffs post pats.

      You mention that Manning fails when the spotlight is brightest, yet his playoff QB rating (the stat that you cite for Brady's greatness) is higher than Brady's at 88.4.
      Lets look at the superbowl, bright shiney lights.

    Brady has played in 4, manning 2

    brady: 100.5, 82.5, 110.2, 86.2, 
    Manning: 88.5, 81.8

    Brady won 3 out of 4, manning is 1 out of 2 brady averages 94, manning averages 85

    Please just go back to the colt boards you troll.



     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking

    Aw chase, you seem to be getting upset over what seem to be very valid questions. Anyway, lets carry on. 

    1.  you didn't answer this question - Is Brady a better QB now than he was when he won his SB's? 

    2.  How does the who leadership thing work when on "any given sunday" one team can beat another team even if they have a superior leader? 

    Further, as it relates to QB rating which you cited.  In the playoffs, isn't each game the most important one and just as bright as the SB?  I make this assumption because if you don't win, you don't go on, right?  So if that's the case why are we looking at just the Superbowl games.  Why not look at a larger sampling like all of their playoff games? 

    You set Brady's playoff passer rating as a mark of greatness.  Its surprising you give Manning no credit for actually having a higher passer rating than Brady.  Why is that? 

    Brady's playoff passer rating is 85.7.  He's had 9 playoff games above that number and 10 playoff games below that number.  Manning has had 10 playoff games above that number and 9 below.  Can we assume that the good games are the ones above and the bad games are the ones below?  If so, here's some interesting information. 

    In the games where brady exceeded his average passer rating he is 8-1.  Manning is 5-5.  Is that due to Manning or some other criteria (the rest of the team's play)?

    In the games where brady performed below his average passer rating, he is 6-4.  Manning is 4-5.  Brady won more games in spite of his poor performance.  Manning won some in spite of his poor performances as well. 

    Ultimately the point is that factors outside of one player's performance in football (even if he is the most important player) generally have a greater influence on the game's outcome than that player's performance alone.  That's why I asked you about all of the great defensive players the pats had.  My point was that together those great defenders led the pats to victory.  Without them, the pats have had less success.  That's what's changed.  The offense is as good if not better, but the defense is not. 

    You say none of those defenders have won playoff games since leaving the pats, but when they left, they didn't leave as a group to play together somewhere else.  Had that happened, they may have produced playoff and even superbowl wins.  
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from ChasaB. Show ChasaB's posts

    Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking

    and just to go a little deeper

    Manning:
    YearTeamGamesWinsPassingRushingPasser Rating
    CompAttPctYdsYPATDIntAttYdsAvgTD
    1999IND10194245.22275.40022211162.3
    2000IND10173253.11946.1101−2−2082.0
    2002IND10143145.21374.402122031.2
    2003IND326710365.09188.994430.80106.4
    2004IND21547572.06969.342273.51107.4
    2005IND10223857.92907.610000090.9
    2006IND449715363.41,0346.837830.4170.5
    2007IND10334868.74028.4321−6−6097.7
    2008IND10254259.53107.4101−1−1090.4
    2009IND328712868.09567.5623-2−0.6099.0
    2010IND10182669.22258.710000.00108.7
    Career19971845363.15,3897.5291923261.1388.4
    Brady
    YearTeamGGSPassingRushingSackedFumbles
    AttCompPctYdsY/ATDIntRtgAttYdsAvgTDSackYdsFumLost
    2001NE33976061.95725.91177.38222.8153610
    2003NE331267559.57926.35284.512181.500000
    2004NE33815567.95877.250109.4730.410011
    2005NE22633555.65428.64292.2382.7041220
    2006NE331197058.87246.15476.58182.2042220
    2007NE331097770.67376.86396.04−1−0.2085211
    2009NE11422354.81543.72349.1000032211
    2010NE11452964.42996.62189.0221.0054010
    Total191968242462.24,4076.5301685.744701.622918493

    Lets looks at the important stuff, your right manning has 2.7 QB rating higher then Brady, thats pretty impressive. HOWEVER Brady has thrown 1 more touchdown, and 3 less interceptions then manning.

    Interceptions lower your teams chance of winning a game by as much as 25% according to statistics the NFL announcers were tossing around all year. thats pretty key.

    Bradys lowest post season Passer rating was when the ravens destroyed the pats in 09 brady had a rating of 49.1. Mannings worst playoff game came in 2002 he had a 31.2.

    Manning has 7 one and done seasons(makes it easier to see his stats). Brady has 2(makes it more difficult to see if he had off games, or was consistent)
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking

    Look - In this situation, I am not trying to say Manning is better than Brady or that Brady isn't a good playoff QB. 

    I am just trying to point out that you made statements that are not very defensible. 

    You've defended brady while criticizing Manning, yet the stat you used to do so favors Manning.  Now you are bringing out additional things like TD's and Ints. 

    What if I were to tell you that I know of 2 ints Manning had that either did not hurt the team or were not his fault.  In a home playoff game vs. SD, Manning threw and end of half hail mary bomb that was picked off.  The result was that the half ended with no point scored.  There was another int manning got against SD again but in SD (i think) where the colts were about to score a screen was thrown (soft and short) to kenton keith who stone handed it and the ball fell into an SD defender who was laying on the ground.  Regardless, even with more picks and 1 fewer TD (if correct) Manning still has a higher rating. 

    What you don't have an answer for is how in 5 games manning played above Brady's average but lost, while that has happened to Brady only once. 

    Here's another - based on your stats, Brady's playoff passer rating average in 2 of his superbowl years was lower than his overall playoff passer rating average, yet he won the SB.  Wouldn't you attribute those wins to something other than Brady or at least give some credit to other teammates?

    Oh, and you've never answered this question.  Is Brady better now than he was when he won his superbowls? 
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from jcour382. Show jcour382's posts

    Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking

    In Response to Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking:
    Seems there are other QB's who have performed better when it mattered.  http://community.advancednflstats.com/2010/12/playoff-qbs-who-carry-their-teams-and.html
    Posted by UD6



    actually gomer is only on that level in your mind... get a grip.... oh wait you probably already have one...
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from hagen910. Show hagen910's posts

    Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking

    only the TMZ of sports ESPN is talking this crap.  Big small Ben has helped his team win one super bowl.  they carried him in the first one.  the only TD pass thrown in the first one was by a wr hines ward.  come on now.  break some passing records and win some super bowls with some super bowl mvp's and we can talk.  this is a joke.  As much as people want to take away from brady and credit adam v or the defense, look at ben in the big games and did he help or hurt in the super bowls.  1 and 1 in my opinion and he still hasn't won the 3rd yet.  ESPN is the TMZ of sports and turning men around the country in girls who are more interested in the soap opera of sports then the competition.  disgusting.
     
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  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from jcour382. Show jcour382's posts

    Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking

    In Response to Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking:
    In Response to Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking : I don't believe Brady ever led his team to a game-winning TD only FG's-and he had the most accurate, clutch kicker in NFL history. No Venitari, no rings?  Maybe
    Posted by JintsFan


    ya and you could also say...no magical helmet catch no superbowl...

    so have some cake and eat it too..
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking

    In Response to Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking:
    In Response to Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking : ya and you could also say...no magical helmet catch no superbowl... so have some cake and eat it too..
    Posted by jcour382


    Did you just make an excuse?  I think you just made an excuse.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from ChasaB. Show ChasaB's posts

    Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking

    everyone should just put UD6 on the ignore list, that includes the other trolls too.

    Brady's Superbowl numbers are better then Manning's, the only game that matters is the Superbowl.

    Case closed
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from jcour382. Show jcour382's posts

    Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking

    In Response to Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking:
    In Response to Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking : Did you just make an excuse?  I think you just made an excuse.
    Posted by UD6


    read it again fluffer... youll get it...  eventually
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from BBReigns. Show BBReigns's posts

    Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking

    In Response to Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking:
    In Response to Re: Brady/Manning Fans may have to adjust their thinking : I don't believe Brady ever led his team to a game-winning TD only FG's-and he had the most accurate, clutch kicker in NFL history. No Venitari, no rings?  Maybe
    Posted by JintsFan


    It's not like his D helped him out too much in SB 36 and 38, blowing large leads.

    As JCour said barring a miracle catch off the side of helmet we have never seen nor will ever see again in our life, your statement would be inaccruate.

    That was a go ahead TD to win the game, barring a series of good luck plays for the Giants.

    As if that is some sort of barometer anyway?   Who cares?

    At the very least he quickly led his team down field twice for SB victories, has two SB MVPs and has been to 4 SBs.


     
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