BYE-BYE WES!

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    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    LMFAO , buried in his own thread. This loser got his azz handed to him by a giants fan , colts fan and pats fans. I wonder what his next handle will be?
     
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    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    In response to "Re: BYE-BYE WES!": [QUOTE]In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES! : BS! Your point of this thread was to rant about Welker's negotiating tactic.  Welker's missed opportunity was also Brady's missed opportunity.  Brady was not even pressured yet thew to Welker's wrong shoulder.  Was it catchable? Given Welker's excellent body control, yes.  But most receivers couldn't have even turned to it let alone gotten two hands on the ball.  Had he thrown that ball to nearly any other receiver who would've been incapable of turning on the ball, you would be complaining about Brady's throw, not Welker's drop.   If Welker goes, it won't be because of his comments about OTA's.  Many pat greats have gone significantly further to express their displeasure with the orgs negotiating tactics only to end up with a deal.  If Welker is gone, it will be because the pats received an offer they couldn't refuse.  Welker's absence would be significant loss for the pats offense and Brady in particular.   You can blather all you wish about what you meant by your OP, but you said much much more over the course of the thread that was effectively refuted time and again.  You've got an axe to grind against welker but hypocritically see things differently where Brady Mankins and Wilfork are concerned.   Posted by UD6[/QUOTE] Whatever UD. You live in a dream world with many others in the stands if you really think any QB even a great one can consistently throw 30 yard passes and land them on either the right or left shoulder of a player (not that that argument makes much sense since Welker like all receivers has arms hanging off both his shoulders). Look at the barrel drill the Pats do in camp where the QBs try to put the ball in a barrell at the corner of the end zone from the 10, 20, and 30 yard mark. By your logic QBs can make split decisions and hit moving targets with the accuracy that it would take to hit that barrel (left or right shoulder). So what's a QBs success rate on a non moving target with no decision making in play? 90%, 80%? No, in all of training camp all the QBs only managed to hit it a handful of times, 8 or 9 each last I heard. Your expecting QBs to throw with greater accuracy than a Major league pitcher, but from further away, with a less aerodynamic ball, and to a moving target. Sure from 10 or 15 yards I expect a QB in the NFL to have that sort of accuracy but the further downfield the wider the target area is. Welker got thrown the ball the one place he could get it and the defense couldn't, and frankly it wasn't that hard of a catch. If I put myself in the QB position I bet I only make that throw two or three times in 50 tries. If I put myself in the receivers shoes I make the catch forty out of 50 times. It's just not that hard of a catch, certainly not for a pro. Not that I want to crucify Welker, because sometimes stuff happens. But it was on Welker, he dropped a pass that hit him in the hands.
     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES!:
    [QUOTE]In response to "Re: BYE-BYE WES!": Whatever UD. You live in a dream world with many others in the stands if you really think any QB even a great one can consistently throw 30 yard passes and land them on either the right or left shoulder of a player (not that that argument makes much sense since Welker like all receivers has arms hanging off both his shoulders). Look at the barrel drill the Pats do in camp where the QBs try to put the ball in a barrell at the corner of the end zone from the 10, 20, and 30 yard mark. By your logic QBs can make split decisions and hit moving targets with the accuracy that it would take to hit that barrel (left or right shoulder). So what's a QBs success rate on a non moving target with no decision making in play? 90%, 80%? No, in all of training camp all the QBs only managed to hit it a handful of times, 8 or 9 each last I heard. Your expecting QBs to throw with greater accuracy than a Major league pitcher, but from further away, with a less aerodynamic ball, and to a moving target. Sure from 10 or 15 yards I expect a QB in the NFL to have that sort of accuracy but the further downfield the wider the target area is. Welker got thrown the ball the one place he could get it and the defense couldn't, and frankly it wasn't that hard of a catch. If I put myself in the QB position I bet I only make that throw two or three times in 50 tries. If I put myself in the receivers shoes I make the catch forty out of 50 times. It's just not that hard of a catch, certainly not for a pro. Not that I want to crucify Welker, because sometimes stuff happens. But it was on Welker, he dropped a pass that hit him in the hands.
    Posted by shenanigan[/QUOTE]
    Please!  Accuracy is part of the requirement for greatness, and Brady has it.  The throw was not a complicated one.  Brady had no pressure.  It was simple pass and catch.  Brady's throw required Welker to fully turn around backward and time a jump to get to the ball.  He managed both of those things and I am going on record as saying most NFL receivers couldn't have gotten two hands on the ball or wouldn't have tried given its location. 

    Now, Welker did get two hands on the ball, and at that time it does become his responsibility.  In the NFL, if a receiver gets two hands on a ball, they have to be expected to make the catch no matter how hard.  So, don't think I give Welker a pass on this.  I don't.  But, imo, even in his drop, he outperformed 80-90% of the other receivers in the game.  Finally, Brady deserves blame on the throw as well.  If he's one of the best in the game, then without pressure, that throw should have been on target.  It wasn't. 

    Finally, and this is the issue that I have with Rally.  This drop has nothing to do how the patriots are dealing with his contract or how welker should deal with it on his end.  Rally thinks it should.  Rally wants to eliminate everything that Welker has done for your org because of that drop and force him to take what the pats offer although he was the consummate team player by not forcing a renegotiation prior to the completion of his former contract.  There is nothing wrong with Welker having expectations beyond a franchise tag.  Laundry guys refuse to accept that.
     
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    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

       As a Giants fan, if you want to ship Wes to us, we will take him with open arms.
     
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    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    nfl football is a major corporate enterprise. agreements are made when both parties feel reasonably satisfied with what they get. Welker's contributions are undeniable. the patriots success in not overpaying is also undeniable. welker can make more elsewhere. but should he try? will he try? the patriots success has been built on believing that tom brady is not replacable and everyone else in uniform is. this will not change. the only way to know if welker will sign is to know if he wants top dollar or wants to be a patriot. he cannot have both. he knows it. the patriots know it. the fans know it.
     
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    In response to "Re: BYE-BYE WES!": [QUOTE]In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES! : Please!  Accuracy is part of the requirement for greatness, and Brady has it.  The throw was not a complicated one.  Brady had no pressure.  It was simple pass and catch.  Brady's throw required Welker to fully turn around backward and time a jump to get to the ball.  He managed both of those things and I am going on record as saying most NFL receivers couldn't have gotten two hands on the ball or wouldn't have tried given its location.  Now, Welker did get two hands on the ball, and at that time it does become his responsibility.  In the NFL, if a receiver gets two hands on a ball, they have to be expected to make the catch no matter how hard.  So, don't think I give Welker a pass on this.  I don't.  But, imo, even in his drop, he outperformed 80-90% of the other receivers in the game.  Finally, Brady deserves blame on the throw as well.  If he's one of the best in the game, then without pressure, that throw should have been on target.  It wasn't.  Finally, and this is the issue that I have with Rally.  This drop has nothing to do how the patriots are dealing with his contract or how welker should deal with it on his end.  Rally thinks it should.  Rally wants to eliminate everything that Welker has done for your org because of that drop and force him to take what the pats offer although he was the consummate team player by not forcing a renegotiation prior to the completion of his former contract.  There is nothing wrong with Welker having expectations beyond a franchise tag.  Laundry guys refuse to accept that. Posted by UD6[/QUOTE] Whatever I sighted a real world example to show QBs are not as accurate as your perception. If you have some evidence to the contrary I'd like to see it. Is there a drill where QBs are throwing a football through tires from 30 yards out and doing it accurately and consistently. I know the talking heads like to give QBs credit for every ball that looks like it was perfect but some is just luck and and some is the receiver adjusted his direction and speed to catch the ball at the right moment. I don't know why you think that catch was so difficult. Go get a friend ( if you can find one) and have them throw the ball to you in that manner, chances are you can catch it, it's just not that hard of a catch. There was a man over the top. A man underneatth and a man to the inside. The ball was thrown in the one area where Welker could get it and the defenders couldn't. Had he made the catch I wouldn't have even remembered it. It wouldn't be the most difficult catch in that game or the most difficult catch I've seen Welker make. As far as Welker's remarks and wanting a new contract I have no problem with what he's doing. He's gonna try to get a big contract, he deserves on and I hope the Pats keep him... But he still dropped a perfectly catchable ball.
     
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    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES! : BS! Your point of this thread was to rant about Welker's negotiating tactic.  Welker's missed opportunity was also Brady's missed opportunity.  Brady was not even pressured yet thew to Welker's wrong shoulder.  Was it catchable? Given Welker's excellent body control, yes.  But most receivers couldn't have even turned to it let alone gotten two hands on the ball.  Had he thrown that ball to nearly any other receiver who would've been incapable of turning on the ball, you would be complaining about Brady's throw, not Welker's drop.   If Welker goes, it won't be because of his comments about OTA's.  Many pat greats have gone significantly further to express their displeasure with the orgs negotiating tactics only to end up with a deal.  If Welker is gone, it will be because the pats received an offer they couldn't refuse.  Welker's absence would be significant loss for the pats offense and Brady in particular.   You can blather all you wish about what you meant by your OP, but you said much much more over the course of the thread that was effectively refuted time and again.  You've got an axe to grind against welker but hypocritically see things differently where Brady Mankins and Wilfork are concerned.  
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]

    You are being lulled into thinking that your defense of WWs strategy is correct. You obviously haven't ever competed as an elite athlete if you are continually going to make excuses for a millionaire who is paid to catch footballs with his hands and doesn't on THE MOST CRITICAL PLAY OF HIS LIFE despite the ball hitting squarely in thsoe hands! Then, you and the rest of the sympathizers here, want to believe that WW is only human and can make mistakes but should get "his money" despite that failure. Yes, I played the game and yes I was a free agent. And, yes, I know what negotiating leverage is! WW screwed up by bringing attention to himself in the media and the court of public opinion because he is dealing with the PATS, not the Browns, or Raiders, or etc...... You are a dreamer UD. Watch how this turns out. My points are the same points that the PATS are going to throw at WW's agent! They wil go on to rebut them just as you have here. Unfortunately, WW doesn't have a leg to stand on based on recent events, especially now that his rare trait of "loyalty" to team is in question. He doesn't have to go to OTAs! But commenting on it was an ORGANIZATIONAL SIN! His point is weakened by breaking that Patriot code. How long have you been watching BB and Co.'s reactions to this type of public pronouncement? Brady, Mankins, and Wilfork are in another teir of invaluable assets. Each of them were in their prime and the very best at their positions at the time of their situations. THAT's a FACT and makes a huge difference! WW is not in that situation, despite his bloated stats No matter how you want to anylyze it, Wes made a tactical error by publicly commenting on his status. Just do what you're gonna do, don't talk about it in the media. Whats seen as "Leverage" against most Orgs. has proven to be death with the PATS when used against them. WW is 30+ dropped THE BALL, and deminished his leadership value by speaking publicly when he didn't have to. BYE-BYE Wes!

     
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    In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES! : seeing as your "facts" got blown up by a Colts fan and you folded quicker than a lawn chair, I guess it must be time to go back to uninformed opinion 
    Posted by provpats[/QUOTE]

    What did you read? It is a fact that the majority of 30+ WR/SB are in decline, and that WW dropped the biggest ball of his carreer. Then, he decides to speak of his situation in the press. ALL WRONG THINGS TO DO AS A PATRIOT. Argue that.

     
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    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    make sure you capitalize as much as you can; that is the sign of an elite athelete and competitor!

    again totally unfounded opinion on his status with the club. Is Brady in trouble for his safety and INT in the SB? with your status as an elite player and competitor you shold know that a game is composed of a lot of plays any one of which can have an impact.  we as fans focus on one play; teams focus on the entire game both offense and defense

    He also I believe has the most receptions in the league since 2007 and makes Brady feel comfortable as the one sure thing he has.  Brady's numbers have soared since the arrival of welker.

    As a free agent, can you maybe take that offer from another board?
     
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    In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES!:
    [QUOTE]make sure you capitalize as much as you can; that is the sign of an elite athelete and competitor! again totally unfounded opinion on his status with the club. Is Brady in trouble for his safety and INT in the SB? with your status as an elite player and competitor you shold know that a game is composed of a lot of plays any one of which can have an impact.  we as fans focus on one play; teams focus on the entire game both offense and defense He also I believe has the most receptions in the league since 2007 and makes Brady feel comfortable as the one sure thing he has.  Brady's numbers have soared since the arrival of welker. As a free agent, can you maybe take that offer from another board?
    Posted by provpats[/QUOTE]

    AND DON'T FORGET HOW MANY RINGS WE HAVE SINCE HE ARRIVED! ZERO!!! As a former, elite player, I understand that individual stats mean SQUAT! CHAMPIONSHIPS ARE EVERYTHING! Ask David Givens-2 rings, and David Patten-3-rings! Ask TB12 which way he liked it more. As far as who I really am, You would be surpised! Now, go back to your fantasy team draft. Dope.
     
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    In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES! : As much as the Rusty King can argue, he NEVER claimed to 'have been there', i.e. played in the NFL and apparently been through the free agency/franchise tagged, as Rally C says he has...
    Posted by BostonSportsFan111[/QUOTE]

    I speak from a position of experience and un-biased opinion. Was never tagged, but was all of the rest that you mention. Oh, you forgot the CFL too! Rusty may never have been part of any, "BostonSportsFan".

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from provpats. Show provpats's posts

    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES! : AND DON'T FORGET HOW MANY RINGS WE HAVE SINCE HE ARRIVED! ZERO!!! As a former, elite player, I understand that individual stats mean SQUAT! CHAMPIONSHIPS ARE EVERYTHING! Ask David Givens-2 rings, and David Patten-3-rings! Ask TB12 which way he liked it more. As far as who I really am, You would be surpised! Now, go back to your fantasy team draft. Dope.
    Posted by RallyC[/QUOTE]

    come on out and tell us, please.  You should be proud to declare yourself being the ELITE competitior!  After, all an ELITE competitor can take everything thrown his way

    I don't think I will be surprised, because you are a hot air blowhard, nothing more, noting less

    As far as the record goes the patriots five SBs in this decade were decided by a total of +1 point.  As a former player and ELITE competitor, you should understand the criticality of all the plays, not just a focus on one play

    As far as the SB record with Wes, if you want to blame Wes for this you really need to enter the concussion program study that the NFL is sponsoring
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES!:
    [QUOTE]In response to "Re: BYE-BYE WES!": Whatever I sighted a real world example to show QBs are not as accurate as your perception. If you have some evidence to the contrary I'd like to see it. Is there a drill where QBs are throwing a football through tires from 30 yards out and doing it accurately and consistently. I know the talking heads like to give QBs credit for every ball that looks like it was perfect but some is just luck and and some is the receiver adjusted his direction and speed to catch the ball at the right moment. I don't know why you think that catch was so difficult. Go get a friend ( if you can find one) and have them throw the ball to you in that manner, chances are you can catch it, it's just not that hard of a catch. There was a man over the top. A man underneatth and a man to the inside. The ball was thrown in the one area where Welker could get it and the defenders couldn't. Had he made the catch I wouldn't have even remembered it. It wouldn't be the most difficult catch in that game or the most difficult catch I've seen Welker make. As far as Welker's remarks and wanting a new contract I have no problem with what he's doing. He's gonna try to get a big contract, he deserves on and I hope the Pats keep him... But he still dropped a perfectly catchable ball.
    Posted by shenanigan[/QUOTE]

    Ok Shen - lets go back to your previous post where you cited a drill the pats run.  I haven't seen it, but assuming you are correct, you are talking about possibly a 55 gallon barrel with a 22.5" diameter.  Receivers have arms so their range to catch a ball significantly exceeds that of the mouth of a barrel.  A receiver can make a QB look accurate by catching a ball even when they are not accurate.  Further, the throw was 25 yards not 30.  It matters.  3rd - you contradict yourself in your previous post by suggesting that QB's can't be expected to be "that" accurate but then state Brady intentionally threw the ball to the only place that he could to keep it from the defense.  So you need to pick.  Did Brady intentionally throw the ball to the spot it went or was it off?  I know we can't know this but you can have an opinion on it.  My contention is that Brady's throw was off.  the inside safety was 5 yards from Welker when the ball got to welker.  Brady could have thrown to Welker's inside (which was the direction his head and shoulders were turned) and completed the pass without concern for an incompletion or interception, but the ball was outside and required Welker to fully turn, in stride, to the outside and leave his feet just to get his hands on the ball.  Again, I don't think 90% of NFL receivers get 2 hands on that ball either due to less coordination or less effort.   

    Your comment however, does bring up a new thought to all of this.  What was Brady trying to do.  If he was trying to keep the throw away from the defender and intentionally threw it to Welker's "other side", then he knew he was throwing a ball that would have been very difficult to catch.  That Welker didn't could be understood given the degree of difficulty. 

    Another note and this goes to some of my previous comments regarding the importance of Welker to the team.  On that play, 3 db's had some form of coverage around welker.  If the pats walk away from that kind of defensive attention, they will lose a significant competitive advantage.  Anthony Gonzalez (if healthy) will not command that kind of attention.  Which brings up another thought.  Did welker make the comments he is being bashed for here before or after the pats picked up Gonzalez?  If after, I am wondering where the organizational loyalty to Wes is?  Laundry guy probably doesn't think organizations are required to show loyalty.  Just vice versa.

    Now to your current post.  I've noted my thoughts on accuracy.  I'll agree that the ball was catchable only because Welker got both hands on it.  Perfectly catchable, no. 
     
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    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES! : come on out and tell us, please.  You should be proud to declare yourself being the ELITE competitior!  After, all an ELITE competitor can take everything thrown his way I don't think I will be surprised, because you are a hot air blowhard, nothing more, noting less As far as the record goes the patriots five SBs in this decade were decided by a total of +1 point.  As a former player and ELITE competitor, you should understand the criticality of all the plays, not just a focus on one play As far as the SB record with Wes, if you want to blame Wes for this you really need to enter the concussion program study that the NFL is sponsoring
    Posted by provpats[/QUOTE]

    I won't tell you because it is my right to say what I want here without rammifications to those who know me. Its a great concept. In my circles, this could hurt real players' feelings. I am not intent on doing that. You are right in a way as I am bowing off steam without having to pay a price for it in the real world. My livlihood depends on my very cool job. If you had one like mine, you'd understand. IF WW makes that catch, you wouldn't have to be here to defend him, and try to rationalize his failure to make THE difference. You see, regardless of who the other guilty contributors are to the demise of the PATS this past SB, WW is the only one who is talking about his relationship with the greatest organization in the NFL in the media, after having had the chance to drive his point home with "THE CATCH." I know, WAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from provpats. Show provpats's posts

    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    more hot air from a blowhard fanboy.  If you keep inflating your self-importance, you will soon resemble the Hindenberg and more importantly crash in flames.  OHHHH, THE HUMANITY!!!!!

    well there we have it, another internet tough guy.  So common, not even close to ELITE!  Afraid to put his money and integrity where his mouth is.  That explains it all, especially the various reasons for the OP.

    And by the way, nowhere have I defended or criticized Welker, Brady or anyone else in this thread.  How did you understand the playbook, if your reading comprehension is so bad? 

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

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    In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES! : You are being lulled into thinking that your defense of WWs strategy is correct. You obviously haven't ever competed as an elite athlete if you are continually going to make excuses for a millionaire who is paid to catch footballs with his hands and doesn't on THE MOST CRITICAL PLAY OF HIS LIFE despite the ball hitting squarely in thsoe hands! Then, you and the rest of the sympathizers here, want to believe that WW is only human and can make mistakes but should get "his money" despite that failure. Yes, I played the game and yes I was a free agent. And, yes, I know what negotiating leverage is! WW screwed up by bringing attention to himself in the media and the court of public opinion because he is dealing with the PATS, not the Browns, or Raiders, or etc...... You are a dreamer UD. Watch how this turns out. My points are the same points that the PATS are going to throw at WW's agent! They wil go on to rebut them just as you have here. Unfortunately, WW doesn't have a leg to stand on based on recent events, especially now that his rare trait of "loyalty" to team is in question. He doesn't have to go to OTAs! But commenting on it was an ORGANIZATIONAL SIN! His point is weakened by breaking that Patriot code. How long have you been watching BB and Co.'s reactions to this type of public pronouncement? Brady, Mankins, and Wilfork are in another teir of invaluable assets. Each of them were in their prime and the very best at their positions at the time of their situations. THAT's a FACT and makes a huge difference! WW is not in that situation, despite his bloated stats No matter how you want to anylyze it, Wes made a tactical error by publicly commenting on his status. Just do what you're gonna do, don't talk about it in the media. Whats seen as "Leverage" against most Orgs. has proven to be death with the PATS when used against them. WW is 30+ dropped THE BALL, and deminished his leadership value by speaking publicly when he didn't have to. BYE-BYE Wes!
    Posted by RallyC[/QUOTE]
    Lulled?  My opinion exists based Welker's excellent play since being a patriot and the fact that he didn't push for a new contract before his old one was up like some other pats that you currently support did.  You're excuse for them is that they are in some other "tier"?  So they are welcome to challenge and trash the org when they choose?  Wow.  That's some kind of example for the vaunted organization.   

    And what does my opinion have to do with competing at an elite level?  I believe in production and none have produced more than Welker.  And he's done it without requesting a new contract before his old one was up.  Many others who've produced much less have asked for much more.  And don't give me the bs about the patriot way.  Mankins has never won a SB.  Welker's got more 1st team all pro selections than Mankins. 

    As for the ball hitting him squarely in the hands, I think not.  It was Welker's acrobatic move that allowed his hands to get to the ball.  Had the ball been thrown better and not required him to turn on it and leave his feet as he had to, then you might have been able to say the ball hit him squarely in his hands.  You obviously never played receiver or db. 

    So you played in the NFL?  And even were a free agent?  What's your real name Rally?  Forget it.  I am not buying it anyway.  If you understood negotiating and leverage, you wouldn't be making these comments. 

    I'll ask the same question I did in a previous post.  Did Welker make his comments before or after the pats signed Anthony Gonzalez?  If after, where was the patriots loyalty to Welker by bringing in a former first rounder whose only issue has been health and not ability?  You think they were sending a message to Welker?  I do.  So in your mind the pats get carte blanche to treat players any way they wish contractually, but the player that wishes to challenge that has earned his ticket out of the building - unless you're Mankins and call the owner a liar. 

    LOL - Some patriot way.
     
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    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES! : I won't tell you because it is my right to say what I want here without rammifications to those who know me. Its a great concept. In my circles, this could hurt real players' feelings. I am not intent on doing that. You are right in a way as I am bowing off steam without having to pay a price for it in the real world. My livlihood depends on my very cool job. If you had one like mine, you'd understand. IF WW makes that catch, you wouldn't have to be here to defend him, and try to rationalize his failure to make THE difference. You see, regardless of who the other guilty contributors are to the demise of the PATS this past SB, WW is the only one who is talking about his relationship with the greatest organization in the NFL in the media, after having had the chance to drive his point home with "THE CATCH." I know, WAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!
    Posted by RallyC[/QUOTE]
    Did Brady throw the ball where he wanted or was it off?
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    In response to "Re: BYE-BYE WES!": [QUOTE]In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES! : Ok Shen - lets go back to your previous post where you cited a drill the pats run.  I haven't seen it, but assuming you are correct, you are talking about possibly a 55 gallon barrel with a 22.5" diameter.  Receivers have arms so their range to catch a ball significantly exceeds that of the mouth of a barrel.  A receiver can make a QB look accurate by catching a ball even when they are not accurate.  Further, the throw was 25 yards not 30.  It matters.  3rd - you contradict yourself in your previous post by suggesting that QB's can't be expected to be "that" accurate but then state Brady intentionally threw the ball to the only place that he could to keep it from the defense.  So you need to pick.  Did Brady intentionally throw the ball to the spot it went or was it off?  I know we can't know this but you can have an opinion on it.  My contention is that Brady's throw was off.  the inside safety was 5 yards from Welker when the ball got to welker.  Brady could have thrown to Welker's inside (which was the direction his head and shoulders were turned) and completed the pass without concern for an incompletion or interception, but the ball was outside and required Welker to fully turn, in stride, to the outside and leave his feet just to get his hands on the ball.  Again, I don't think 90% of NFL receivers get 2 hands on that ball either due to less coordination or less effort.    Your comment however, does bring up a new thought to all of this.  What was Brady trying to do.  If he was trying to keep the throw away from the defender and intentionally threw it to Welker's "other side", then he knew he was throwing a ball that would have been very difficult to catch.  That Welker didn't could be understood given the degree of difficulty.  Another note and this goes to some of my previous comments regarding the importance of Welker to the team.  On that play, 3 db's had some form of coverage around welker.  If the pats walk away from that kind of defensive attention, they will lose a significant competitive advantage.  Anthony Gonzalez (if healthy) will not command that kind of attention.  Which brings up another thought.  Did welker make the comments he is being bashed for here before or after the pats picked up Gonzalez?  If after, I am wondering where the organizational loyalty to Wes is?  Laundry guy probably doesn't think organizations are required to show loyalty.  Just vice versa. Now to your current post.  I've noted my thoughts on accuracy.  I'll agree that the ball was catchable only because Welker got both hands on it.  Perfectly catchable, no.  Posted by UD6[/QUOTE] I'm saying the window Brady had to throw to was about 5ft by 5ft wide. It was a moving area and need to have enough loft so the underneath man couldn't get a hand on it. Putting it in that window from that distance to a moving target is a perfectly acceptable throw, and one I would expect an NFL QB to be able to make, but not so easy a typical amateur could make it. In order to keep it out of the defenders it had to be slightly shorter than where Welker could have reached at a full sprint but not so short that he would turn and the ball would land at his feet. He had a man covering the inside so as is the case in such situations he must put the ball between Welker and the sideline, and not have the ball land between Welker and the defender on the right. Whether the ball went two feet to the left or right or short or long makes little difference. I expect any NFL receiver, or even an amateur one could haul in such a pass that falls within the radius of how wide they can spread their arms. I would expect that no coach would start nitpicking about whether the ball needed to be a foot further this way or that from that distance because they know that no matter who the QB is, they will never find someone who can drop a pass in a precise one foot radius window consistently in that situation, the best they could hope is for someone who can put it in a window the receiver can reach and the defenders can't in that situation. I can say this, if you were passed that ball and dropped it like Welker and started blaming the QB people would laugh at you. It's clearly on the receiver here. Welker is important to the team. He's not irreplaceable, but I wouldn't want to replace him. I expect him to get everything he cam because that's how these things work. I don't expect players to take less for the Pats, I don't think negotiating his contract or missing OTAs during negotiation means he's disloyal. It's one of the few cards he can play in his situation and I don't have any problem with it. He's not the face of the franchise, he doesn't owe the Pats brand anything.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from RallyC. Show RallyC's posts

    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES! : Did Brady throw the ball where he wanted or was it off?
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]

    The QB's job is to put the ball where only the receiver can catch it. Ultimately, Tom did that perfectly. The ball was put in THE location at a point where the defenders would have least chance at making a play on it. Problem with shooting for a point inside or outside is if he misses by a foot, the DB has a shot at an INT. So the answer is YES. Tom split the defenders and threw it where only Wes had a chance, and aimed at a projected point of his helmet. Unfortunately, despite making a perfect adjustment, Wes just doesn't make THE CATCH. If you are asking if the ball could have been put in a place that would have made it easier to catch? Yes, but only with increased risk of allowing the ball to be intercepted if Tom misses slightly off the mark inside or out. Here, judge for yourself, and while watching, remember that the job is to put it where only Wes can get his hands on it. What you say/think isn't gonna change the fact that I was a pro CB at one time. Even the height of the ball is right above his eyes and exactly where a receiver wants it. For the situation, an incredibly accurate throw between two pro DB's to a full speed SMURF of a moving target. And as I said, it hit both hands flush. See for yourself by copy and pasting this link into a new browser. This link won't work otherwise:  

    No excuses. Tom did what he's supposed to do. Any better is simply gravy. For NFL All-Pro's, this ball must be caught. What do you want Tom to do, hand it to him? BYE-BYE WES.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES!:
    [QUOTE]In response to "Re: BYE-BYE WES!": I'm saying the window Brady had to throw to was about 5ft by 5ft wide. It was a moving area and need to have enough loft so the underneath man couldn't get a hand on it. Putting it in that window from that distance to a moving target is a perfectly acceptable throw, and one I would expect an NFL QB to be able to make, but not so easy a typical amateur could make it. In order to keep it out of the defenders it had to be slightly shorter than where Welker could have reached at a full sprint but not so short that he would turn and the ball would land at his feet. He had a man covering the inside so as is the case in such situations he must put the ball between Welker and the sideline, and not have the ball land between Welker and the defender on the right. Whether the ball went two feet to the left or right or short or long makes little difference. I expect any NFL receiver, or even an amateur one could haul in such a pass that falls within the radius of how wide they can spread their arms. I would expect that no coach would start nitpicking about whether the ball needed to be a foot further this way or that from that distance because they know that no matter who the QB is, they will never find someone who can drop a pass in a precise one foot radius window consistently in that situation, the best they could hope is for someone who can put it in a window the receiver can reach and the defenders can't in that situation. I can say this, if you were passed that ball and dropped it like Welker and started blaming the QB people would laugh at you. It's clearly on the receiver here. Welker is important to the team. He's not irreplaceable, but I wouldn't want to replace him. I expect him to get everything he cam because that's how these things work. I don't expect players to take less for the Pats, I don't think negotiating his contract or missing OTAs during negotiation means he's disloyal. It's one of the few cards he can play in his situation and I don't have any problem with it. He's not the face of the franchise, he doesn't owe the Pats brand anything.
    Posted by shenanigan[/QUOTE]
    Shen - I don't want to disagree with you too vehemently as I agree that if you can put both hands on the ball, you should be expected to catch.  Welker accomplished the former, so the latter should have happened it didn't. 

    that said, I think the ball could have been thrown better, and I'll stand by my belief that most receivers couldn't have turned on that ball as effectively as welker did.  Unlike Rally, his drop doesn't diminish his value in my eyes. 

    I'll be surprised if he and the pats don't find some middle ground agreement that gets him out of the franchise tag and pays him a little more guaranteed.  That said, the addition of lloyd and a possibly healthy (don't count on a year's worth of health) Gonzalez does give the pats a little leverage in the process.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES! : The QB's job is to put the ball where only the receiver can catch it. Ultimately, Tom did that perfectly.  The ball was put in THE location at a point where the defenders would have least chance at making a play on it.  Problem with shooting for a point inside or outside is if he misses by a foot, the DB has a shot at an INT. So the answer is YES. Tom split the defenders and threw it where only Wes had a chance, and aimed at a projected point of his helmet. Unfortunately, despite making a perfect adjustment, Wes just doesn't make THE CATCH. If you are asking if the ball could have been put in a place that would have made it easier to catch? Yes, but only with increased risk of allowing the ball to be intercepted if Tom misses slightly off the mark inside or out. Here, judge for yourself, and while watching, remember that the job is to put it where only Wes can get his hands on it. What you say/think isn't gonna change the fact that I was a pro CB at one time. Even the height of the ball is right above his eyes and exactly where a receiver wants it. For the situation, an incredibly accurate throw between two pro DB's to a full speed SMURF of a moving target. And as I said, it hit both hands flush. See for yourself by copy and pasting this link into a new browser. This link won't work otherwise:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT6XziIQ5RI No excuses. Tom did what he's supposed to do. Any better is simply gravy. For NFL All-Pro's, this ball must be caught. What do you want Tom to do, hand it to him? BYE-BYE WES.
    Posted by RallyC[/QUOTE]
    Rally, I've seen the play numerous times.  Hindsight is perfect and the inside safety was a good 5 yards from Welker at the time the ball reached Welker.  Had Brady thrown to Welker's facing side with a little zip, Welker not only likely would have made the catch, but he probably would have also scored.  That said, he did miss the catch.  The point I am making is that drop doesn't diminish his skills in my eyes and obviously many here.  With the pats getting lloyd and gonzalez, maybe they really don't want to negotiate a more favorable deal for Welker.  Just as its welker's preogative to expect a better deal, its the pats preogative not to offer anything better. 
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES! : Its easy to laugh at people like you when you are someone like me. HA-HA-HA-HA! Peasant, wanna be, dope!!!
    Posted by RallyC[/QUOTE]

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from provpats. Show provpats's posts

    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES! : Its easy to laugh at people like you when you are someone like me. HA-HA-HA-HA! Peasant, wanna be, dope!!!
    Posted by RallyC[/QUOTE]

    Glad you have been exposed for all to see coward?
    How did you ever come up with enough courage to play ELITE football?
    You must have an ELITE bank account to be worried about money right now!
    Blowhard, fanboy, ELITE FAILURE!
     
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