BYE-BYE WES!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from MichFan. Show MichFan's posts

    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    Welker plays next year on old contract.  Beyond that it would be tough going more than 3 years because of his age.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from provpats. Show provpats's posts

    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    another reason for your post; you admire Wes and now have angst because he dropped the ball and will have to leave  I think that is the fourth reason you have given.

    What about what became public with Mankins vs Kraft in the newspapers and the holdout 9 games into the season?  Mankins left the team!  Can it get much worse?

    To my way thinking that is much worse than missing OTAs , yet he got a record deal.  How do you reconcile the two and come to the conclusion that WW is gone?

    At the end of the day this is business for both sides and if the money and years make sense it gets done

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from RallyC. Show RallyC's posts

    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES! : Rally, I've seen the play numerous times.  Hindsight is perfect and the inside safety was a good 5 yards from Welker at the time the ball reached Welker.  Had Brady thrown to Welker's facing side with a little zip, Welker not only likely would have made the catch, but he probably would have also scored.  That said, he did miss the catch.  The point I am making is that drop doesn't diminish his skills in my eyes and obviously many here.  With the pats getting lloyd and gonzalez, maybe they really don't want to negotiate a more favorable deal for Welker.  Just as its welker's preogative to expect a better deal, its the pats preogative not to offer anything better. 
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]

    UD6, I know it seems like such an easy task, and with all due respect, you appear to have sound knowledge about the game. But, measure the circumstances, weigh the gravity of the situation, and realize the difficulty to make that throw as well as TB12 did. WES has to do his part now and do what he has done dozens of times previously....Catch the Ball when it hits your hands. These guys aren't in the back yard playing catch for neighborhood bragging rights. All a professional athlete wants in those circumstances, whether it be bottom 9 with two outs down by a run, or down by 2 with 5-seconds left and a three wins it, or in this case closing minutes of the SB with a chance to ice it with THE CATCH, is a chance to do it in the biggest game in front of the entire world. Wes had it, didn't do it, and as a result, lost significant performance leverage towards a more lucrative deal from the PATS. And, by not continuing to display an unparralleled level of class by making the statement to the press, against the philosophic discipline that this org looks from their leaders, WES DROPED TWO BALLS. They reward those who toe the company line. Money isn't everything, but the PATS are fair in their value assesments and spread the wealth in order to keep a balance between very good and strong complimentary players. Saying anything when he did, in my opinion, and I think it will play out this way, seals his fate as an ex-Patriot unless he takes an unbelievablly team friendly deal now. Most of my angst is because I really do admire him, until that statement, and now we likely lose him. I didn't want it to happen. My arguments here are simply my points of view that the PATS are forced to over analyze, and yes exxagerate now that he has called them out. I am a PATS fan, I was cut by them once too a few years back, but still remain a PATS fan. Born in Boston, I have no choice! Went off to the CFL for a while too, but always a PATS fan.........No matter what happens. You're points are well taken. I admire your vigor and respect your knowledge. I can't say that for many here! I guess we will soon enough see WW's fate.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from provpats. Show provpats's posts

    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    NIce way to use your physical strength.  Glad you can do a 40 so  fast on the internet.  I am impressed by anonymous rantings

    The watches are a nice touch.  When you learn to tell time, come back and tell us all about it in a couple of months

    now that you have to rely on other things, how about some testicular fortitude?

    or maybe just answer questions
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from RallyC. Show RallyC's posts

    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES!:
    [QUOTE]another reason for your post; you admire Wes and now have angst because he dropped the ball and will have to leave  I think that is the fourth reason you have given. What about what became public with Mankins vs Kraft in the newspapers and the holdout 9 games into the season?  Mankins left the team!  Can it get much worse? To my way thinking that is much worse than missing OTAs , yet he got a record deal.  How do you reconcile the two and come to the conclusion that WW is gone? At the end of the day this is business for both sides and if the money and years make sense it gets done
    Posted by provpats[/QUOTE]

    PP, Mankins was the absolute best at what it is he does in the prime of his carreer and protects the backbone of this team on nearly every play. Is value to the team is obviously more to them than WW. Mankins timing was not following his biggest gaff of his crreer either, like WW's. Timing is everything and WW showed very poor use of it with the MISS OF A LIFETIME followed up by a public statement that was less than supportive of the cause, even his own. Why don't you see that? It was stupid! Mankins, VW, TB12 are different echelon players. WW is a beneficiary of the system.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES!:
    [QUOTE]UD6, I know it seems like such an easy task, and with all due respect, you appear to have sound knowledge about the game. But, measure the circumstances, weigh the gravity of the situation, and realize the difficulty to make that throw as well as TB12 did. WES has to do his part now and do what he has done dozens of times previously....Catch the Ball when it hits your hands. These guys aren't in the back yard playing catch for neighborhood bragging rights. All a professional athlete wants in those circumstances, whether it be bottom 9 with two outs down by a run, or down by 2 with 5-seconds left and a three wins it, or in this case closing minutes of the SB with a chance to ice it with THE CATCH, is a chance to do it in the biggest game in front of the entire world. Wes had it, didn't do it, and as a result, would have gained respect and likely a more lucrative offer from the PATS by continuing to exemplify what he has since his arrival and what they want from their leaders. They reward those who toe the company line. Money isn't everything, but they are fair and spread the wealth in order to keep a balance between very good and strong complimentary players. Saying anything when he did, in my opinion, and I think it will play out this way, seals his fate as an ex-Patriot unless he takes an unbelievablly team friendly deal now. Most of my angst is because I really do admire him, until that statement, and now we likely lose him. I didn't want it to happen. My arguments here are simply my points of view that the PATS are forced to over analyze, and yes exxagerate now that he has called them out. I am a PATS fan, I was cut by them once too a few years back, but still remain a PATS fan. Born in Boston, I have no choice! Went off to the CFL for a while too, but always a PATS fan.........No matter what happens. You're points are well taken. I admire your vigor and respect your knowledge. I can't say that for many here! I guess we will sson see WW's fate......
    Posted by RallyC[/QUOTE]
    Rally - I get it.  And I've said, that as a professional, if you can put both hands on the ball, you are expected to pull it in.  Welker didn't.  He failed.  I don't think the lack of that catch will alter the offer that the pat have or will make to him.  If they didn't want him, they wouldn't have tagged him.  That said, and as I've said before, the tag is not welcomed by the player.  Its a tool for the benefit of the org.  They could not (in time) or did not want to negotiate with welker before they had to tag him so that he couldn't walk away without some form of compensation for the team via trade or have more time to negotiate a more equitable deal for Welker. 

    As for toeing the company line, I call BS.  Brady's disconnect article was not "the company line", and Mankins "the pats are liars" certainly wasn't the company line, yet they are both happily in the fold today, and they are both leaders of the team.  So the company line bs doesn't work especially when it is the "leaders" who are the ones not toeing it themselves. 

    What would you describe as a team friendly deal?

    In the end, you may be right, but I disagree that Welker's better days are done.  There are a number of teams including those with good QB's that would gladly take Welker.  Maybe the pats think they have all they need to play the middle of the field going forward, but I don't agree.  Then again, I am just a football fan, but when I look at the replay of welkers drop and see all of the attention (3 dbs) focused on him, I see his value.  Further, Brady always knowing where his outlet is, is a value to Brady.  That said, maybe the org sees Welker as too much of a crutch for Brady.  That his is too quickly dumping off to him.  I don't know.  We shall see.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from RallyC. Show RallyC's posts

    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES! : Rally - I get it.  And I've said, that as a professional, if you can put both hands on the ball, you are expected to pull it in.  Welker didn't.  He failed.  I don't think the lack of that catch will alter the offer that the pat have or will make to him.  If they didn't want him, they wouldn't have tagged him.  That said, and as I've said before, the tag is not welcomed by the player.  Its a tool for the benefit of the org.  They could not (in time) or did not want to negotiate with welker before they had to tag him so that he couldn't walk away without some form of compensation for the team via trade or have more time to negotiate a more equitable deal for Welker.  As for toeing the company line, I call BS.  Brady's disconnect article was not "the company line", and Mankins "the pats are liars" certainly wasn't the company line, yet they are both happily in the fold today, and they are both leaders of the team.  So the company line bs doesn't work especially when it is the "leaders" who are the ones not toeing it themselves.  What would you describe as a team friendly deal? In the end, you may be right, but I disagree that Welker's better days are done.  There are a number of teams including those with good QB's that would gladly take Welker.  Maybe the pats think they have all they need to play the middle of the field going forward, but I don't agree.  Then again, I am just a football fan, but when I look at the replay of welkers drop and see all of the attention (3 dbs) focused on him, I see his value.  Further, Brady always knowing where his outlet is, is a value to Brady.  That said, maybe the org sees Welker as too much of a crutch for Brady.  That his is too quickly dumping off to him.  I don't know.  We shall see.
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]

    UD6, the tag is a great mechanism to lock a player in with "perceived" high value to gain trade leverage. I believe that other teams do see WW as more valuable than what the PATS now do. But I do still believe that a team friendly deal would make keeping him sensible for 2-yrs at 11-mil total value. Year 3 his delcine is past maturity rendering him irrelevant.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES! : PP, Mankins was the absolute best at what it is he does in the prime of his carreer and protects the backbone of this team on nearly every play. Is value to the team is obviously more to them than WW. Mankins timing was not following his biggest gaff of his crreer either, like WW's. Timing is everything and WW showed very poor use of it with the MISS OF A LIFETIME followed up by a public statement that was less than supportive of the cause, even his own. Why don't you see that? It was stupid! Mankins, VW, TB12 are different echelon players. WW is a beneficiary of the system.
    Posted by RallyC[/QUOTE]
    rally - Welker helped create the system. 

    I'll state again.  Brady won no MVP's and was not a 1st team all pro until Welker showed up.  Moss - he's come and gone.  Who remained?  Welker. 

    When Brady was winning those SB's, the offense wasn't as important as the defense.  Offense was game managment while the defense dominated opposing offenses.  That tide has turned, and the defense no longer can stop opposing offenses in the same way it once did.  The requirement for success fell to Brady and his receiving corps.  the glue - welker. 

    Maybe that's all changed with the development of the TE's and the addition of Lloyd.  And maybe Gonzalez can find a way to stay healthy.  If so, he will be a gem for the pats.  Very good.  Not welker, but very good. 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES! : UD6, the tag is a great mechanism to lock a player in with "perceived" high value to gain trade leverage. I believe that other teams do see WW as more valuable than what the PATS now do. But I do still believe that a team friendly deal would make keeping him sensible for 2-yrs at 11-mil total value. Year 3 his delcine is past maturity rendering him irrelevant.
    Posted by RallyC[/QUOTE]
    I don't see that the Welker would accept that offer especially with the tag at 9.5.  Wouldn't make sense for him.  I was thinking 3 years in the 18-20 mill range with 15 guaranteed.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from RallyC. Show RallyC's posts

    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES! : rally - Welker helped create the system.  I'll state again.  Brady won no MVP's and was not a 1st team all pro until Welker showed up.  Moss - he's come and gone.  Who remained?  Welker.  When Brady was winning those SB's, the offense wasn't as important as the defense.  Offense was game managment while the defense dominated opposing offenses.  That tide has turned, and the defense no longer can stop opposing offenses in the same way it once did.  The requirement for success fell to Brady and his receiving corps.  the glue - welker.  Maybe that's all changed with the development of the TE's and the addition of Lloyd.  And maybe Gonzalez can find a way to stay healthy.  If so, he will be a gem for the pats.  Very good.  Not welker, but very good. 
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]

    You forgot the NO RINGS since WW got here. And now he owns direct responsibly in at least one of those chances! BRADY, nor does any other REAL winner, prefer individual accollades over the ultimate prize, CHAMPIONSHIPS! Come on UD!

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from RallyC. Show RallyC's posts

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    In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES! : I don't see that the Welker would accept that offer especially with the tag at 9.5.  Wouldn't make sense for him.  I was thinking 3 years in the 18-20 mill range with 15 guaranteed.
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]

    If he makes the catch, and shuts his mouth, 16-mil 3 yrs. Now, his prior injury, and the 30+ yo WR average decline will draw focus.

     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from provpats. Show provpats's posts

    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    so everything is related to that one play?  Nothing about the subsequent Branch drop, the too many men on the field penalty, the failure by the D to recover two balls on the ground?  It all comes down to that. 

    If Wes does not provide protection to TB in the form of a valuable safety valve, then does Tom ring up the records that he has?  Wasn't the major problem in 2006 the lack of quality receivers, which was fixed the next year with the acquisition of Moss and Welker.  Wes has over 550 catches and 6100 yards in that timeframe which in the Pats offense (which I would describe as less vertical than the Colts) is by far and away the best in the league over this 5 year period

    You profess to know the Patriots well; I assume you believe that the Patriots believe that keeping Brady both safe and happy is critical.  Would TB be happy losing his most consistent and productive receiver?
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from provpats. Show provpats's posts

    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES! : You are so much more intelligent than me that I am motivating you to contine this thread that I started about 175 entries ago. Wow, I am stupid. Tell that to BDC. Idiot!
    Posted by RallyC[/QUOTE]

    I hope you take this thread to your next job interview to show them how much "controversy" you  can dredge up.

    Of course welker makes $9M this year and becomes a FA again next year; don't know why he would accept $11M to play here. 

    No rings since Mankins got here and he is more ELITE and therefore should bear a greater responsibility?
     
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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from portfolio1. Show portfolio1's posts

    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    The drop is irrelevent in connection with a Welker contract. Regardless of whether you lay more of the blame for that play on TB or WW WW is still who he is. And last I looked he had 122 for over 1500 yards!  Let me repeat "!!!!!" That is MORE than good. So for those of you who think his career is now all downhill you can relax and take your heads out of your hind quarters.

    Yes he is over 30 and that WILL affect the length of the contract. But he is the best at the thing he does. Maybe not the first or even fifth WR I would take if I had the league to choose from but the best at ball control from the slot. I do not expect Lloyd to put up Moss numbers from 2007 but I expect he will have a superb year and Welker will have yet another 80-120 catches.

    I expect them to sign WW at some point. Hopefully not too late into preseason. But they need the flexibilty in the cap at this point.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from RhodyATL. Show RhodyATL's posts

    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES!:
    [QUOTE]shameful post. We should keep Wes at all costs!!!
    Posted by jam757[/QUOTE]

    If Wes does not feel 9 million is enough show him the door. The Pats have more needs, and Wes Welker can be replaced. There are plenty of good slot receivers out there.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

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    In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES! : Thanks for the acknowledgement! Actions speak louder than words! I am having an impact on you and you can't do anything about it. No mental discipline, eh? Stupid.....
    Posted by RallyC[/QUOTE]

    Yes, You've impacted me so much that I decided to find the perfect avatar for you.  Please accept this gift and remember that it's the thought that counts.
    Enjoy!

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from RallyC. Show RallyC's posts

    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    In response to "Re: BYE-BYE WES!": [QUOTE]so everything is related to that one play?  Nothing about the subsequent Branch drop, the too many men on the field penalty, the failure by the D to recover two balls on the ground?  It all comes down to that.  If Wes does not provide protection to TB in the form of a valuable safety valve, then does Tom ring up the records that he has?  Wasn't the major problem in 2006 the lack of quality receivers, which was fixed the next year with the acquisition of Moss and Welker.  Wes has over 550 catches and 6100 yards in that timeframe which in the Pats offense (which I would describe as less vertical than the Colts) is by far and away the best in the league over this 5 year period You profess to know the Patriots well; I assume you believe that the Patriots believe that keeping Brady both safe and happy is critical.  Would TB be happy losing his most consistent and productive receiver? Posted by provpats[/QUOTE] TB12 has 3-rings without WW, Zero with him. You tell me.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from provpats. Show provpats's posts

    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    OK let's play the game

    Brady does not have one without Troy Brown as a receiver; without Bruschi, McGuiness and Seymour as defenders
    mankins has no rings
    Mayo does not have a ring

    Moss does not have a ring

    BB has never won a ring without Weis or Crennel

    Parcells never won a ring without BB

    This is called a logical disconnect;

    But as usual with you no answers, no hard facts just bluster and b/s

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonSportsFan111. Show BostonSportsFan111's posts

    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES! : I speak from a position of experience and un-biased opinion. Was never tagged, but was all of the rest that you mention. Oh, you forgot the CFL too! Rusty may never have been part of any, "BostonSportsFan".
    Posted by RallyC[/QUOTE]
    Yeah, whatever... I was WBC, WBA and WBF heavyweight champion simulatneously, while also holding the WWE and TNA titles. I pitched 3 no hitters, one perfect game, and hit for the cycle. I dunked on Kobe and LeBron, knocked Zdano Chara into the boards and bicycle kicked on Pele. I was franchise tagged, held out and signed a multi-gazillion dollar contract... Oh, and I speak from a position of experience and un-biased opinion.

    See anyone with an internet connection can be a big shot.

    I think PatsFanSince1966 is back out of the lab and off his meds again...
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rocky. Show Rocky's posts

    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES! : Yeah, whatever... I was WBC, WBA and WBF heavyweight champion simulatneously, while also holding the WWE and TNA titles. I pitched 3 no hitters, one perfect game, and hit for the cycle. I dunked on Kobe and LeBron, knocked Zdano Chara into the boards and bicycle kicked on Pele. I was franchise tagged, held out and signed a multi-gazillion dollar contract... Oh, and I speak from a position of experience and un-biased opinion. See anyone with an internet connection can be a big shot. I think PatsFanSince1966 is back out of the lab and off his meds again...
    Posted by BostonSportsFan111[/QUOTE]

    +1....I asked Rally for his autograph but he refused!  Pompus athlete! Thinks he is better than everybody else!  Thinks he is something special!

    I know I can get your autograph....right? I will even send a SASE!

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonSportsFan111. Show BostonSportsFan111's posts

    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES! : +1....I asked Rally for his autograph but he refused!  Pompus athlete! Thinks he is better than everybody else!  Thinks he is something special! I know I can get your autograph....right? I will even send a SASE!
    Posted by Rocky[/QUOTE]

    Anything for my fans...
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: BYE-BYE WES!

    In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: BYE-BYE WES! : UD6, the tag is a great mechanism to lock a player in with "perceived" high value to gain trade leverage. I believe that other teams do see WW as more valuable than what the PATS now do. But I do still believe that a team friendly deal would make keeping him sensible for 2-yrs at 11-mil total value. Year 3 his delcine is past maturity rendering him irrelevant.
    Posted by RallyC[/QUOTE]


    Why would he accept two years at 11 million, when he can sign the tag that's already been offered him for 9.5 million and become a free agent next year and go after the big contract (likely worth well more than 1.5 million) then?  When the Pats tagged Welker, they limited Welker's options to negotiate with other teams, but they also handcuffed themselves to a deal with a minimum value of one year at 9.5 million.  They really can't get Welker on the cheap anymore.  If they don't want to pay him the 9.5 million this year, their only option is to withdraw the tag and let Welker walk as a free agent.  The Pats get nothing for him if they do this. 

    The likelihood at this point is that both Welker and the Pats are looking at a three or four year deal that averages around 8 million a year and has at least $12 million guaranteed.  The Pats may actually want a slightly longer deal, not so much because they plan to keep Welker for a long time, but because they may want to spread the salary cap hit out over more time, even if it means a bigger hit if they end up cutting Welker early. 


     
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