can the Pats power run all the way to a championship

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from rtuinila. Show rtuinila's posts

    Re: can the Pats power run all the way to a championship

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

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    If we agree to not get giddy over one game (last week) has anyone seen the consistancy from the OL the entire year to lead us to believe they can run at will in the playoffs? 

    I actually thought the key to the run game success last week was due to the Ravens playing pass first, with Suggs and Ngata coming upfield and leaving lanes open. The Ravens also did a good job putting their LB's in that mid field area taking away the quick slants TB loves. 

    All this simply opened up the run game...

    I presume BB will have this team prepared to do anything needed in any game, pass heavy, run heavy or balance, with TB able to execute what ever BB wants. This flexibility ImO has been the key to the pats success. 




    Actually, almost every game this year where they tried to run the ball, they've had pretty good success. How many times have most fans wondered why they stopped running the ball. Pretty much every loss! This year forcing teams to honor the Pats running game has opened up the passing game. It hasn't worked the other way.



    No.  First, they don't "stop" running the ball too often.  And when they do it's usually because it isn't working well and/or they are behind and/or they don't have much time left to come back. If just running more were what they needed to do, Belichick would have figured it out.  

    I can post more plays if need be.  Which loss do you want to look at more closely?




    First what do you consider not working well? if you mean they don't gain a lot of yards each time they run I think that is a very simplistic look at the purpose of running. If the attempts at running didn't move the defense from all out pass d then you're right.

    I think the don't have much time to come back isn't a real reason to quit the running game. Especially in the hurry-up it is quicker to line up for the next play after a run than it is for a pass (unless the receiver gets out of bounds of course).  I can't remember if the 49er's proved this or the Seahawks but I seem to recall one of those teams went hurry-up run, run, run, run pretty much all the way to a touchdown in a little less than the same amount of time it takes using pass plays.

    On top of that, most of the losses this year were due to the other team coming back on the Pats. Usually after the Pats start going pass happy and abandon the run. It's almost like if you stuff the run two times in a row, the Pats abandon it for the rest of the series or even the half.

    They seem to start getting away from the run last week but maybe BB talked to McD because it seemed they went back to "committing to the run" again and the O started having success again.

    But then again I'm probably wrong.

     
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    Re: can the Pats power run all the way to a championship

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

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    I



    Or maybe it had a lot to do with throwing the ball 52 times and running it 16 times with rid and blount despite their 4.4 and 5.3 ypc average. Kind of hard to sell play action if the other team sees a pattern. Now, the browns were only up 6 points at the half. I like mcdaniels, but maybe the opening drivess dictated how succesful or lack there of play action would be.

     

    1st pats drive

    pass incomplete

    pass incomplete

    pass short 5 yards

     

    punt.

    2nd pats drive

    blount up middle for 6

    blount up middle for 11

    pass deep incomplete

    pass short incomplete

    pass deep......interception.

    no wonder they didnt fall for play action....



    Or maybe Cinncinnati's defensive front was playing more aggressively than the Ravens'?  I mean I show you an example of the very different way the two teams were playing against similar plays in similar formations and yet you just go back to your usual tactic of repeating pass-run ratios as if play calling was merely about getting the ratios right. 

     



    I cited the plays called, because it is directly related to the topic. If Brady was sacked on 3 play action passes, it was because they either didn't buy the play action fake, or they just dominated our offensive line. As we see, that the Pats started out with 3 straight incompletions, then 2 great runs with 3 more passes and a turnover, I would say they weren't believeing we would run the ball.

    Play action worked better against the ravens, who have a better front 7 then cleveland because they established the run and kept pounding them with it. This is a basic concept of utilizing the play action pass....pound the run and sell the play action. I see a correlation between going pass heavy and getting sacked on play action fakes.

    Besides that, you are insinuating in your post that play action might not be such a good option, when watching Brady execute the play action as well as any qb in the game for the last 12 years tells a different tale all together. 

 
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from crazyworldoftroybrown. Show crazyworldoftroybrown's posts

    Re: can the Pats power run all the way to a championship

    We had a series last week against the Ravens, AND I made sure to write the Time and what we did with a 20-0 lead. 3 incomplete passes, ran off 48 seconds and Punted. Like giving the Ravens extra Timeouts, so you could get back in the game. 10:10 in 3rd quarter, when we Punted.
    Thats ridiculous.
    You lose games in the NFL by seconds.

     

     
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    Re: can the Pats power run all the way to a championship

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

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    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

    I

     



    Or maybe it had a lot to do with throwing the ball 52 times and running it 16 times with rid and blount despite their 4.4 and 5.3 ypc average. Kind of hard to sell play action if the other team sees a pattern. Now, the browns were only up 6 points at the half. I like mcdaniels, but maybe the opening drivess dictated how succesful or lack there of play action would be.

     

     

    1st pats drive

    pass incomplete

    pass incomplete

    pass short 5 yards

     

    punt.

    2nd pats drive

    blount up middle for 6

    blount up middle for 11

    pass deep incomplete

    pass short incomplete

    pass deep......interception.

    no wonder they didnt fall for play action....



    Or maybe Cinncinnati's defensive front was playing more aggressively than the Ravens'?  I mean I show you an example of the very different way the two teams were playing against similar plays in similar formations and yet you just go back to your usual tactic of repeating pass-run ratios as if play calling was merely about getting the ratios right. 

     



    I cited the plays called, because it is directly related to the topic. If Brady was sacked on 3 play action passes, it was because they either didn't buy the play action fake, or they just dominated our offensive line. As we see, that the Pats started out with 3 straight incompletions, then 2 great runs with 3 more passes and a turnover, I would say they weren't believeing we would run the ball.

    Okay, we're confused here, because I was talking at this point about Cinncinati not Cleveland and you're talking about Cleveland.  The three sacks against play action were in the Cinncinati game.  There were sacks against play action in the Cleveland game too, but I haven't counted how many (I'll do that shortly, though).  UPDATE: Three of the four sacks in the Cleveland game were against play action, same as in the Cinncinati game. 

    The Cinncinati defensive front was killing us.  That game started with a Blount run (4 yards) followed by a play action pass for a sack.  Basically, the DLs/LBs just blew past our blockers.  That would have blown up a running play too, though it happened to be a pass play.  

     

    Play action worked better against the ravens, who have a better front 7 then cleveland because they established the run and kept pounding them with it. This is a basic concept of utilizing the play action pass....pound the run and sell the play action. I see a correlation between going pass heavy and getting sacked on play action fakes.

    The major issue for the Pats has always been how well our O line blocks defensive fronts.  When we get a good defensive front, it kills both our running game and our passing game.  Football is very much won and lost with execution in the trenches.  Play calling isn't that important if you can't block. 

     

    Besides that, you are insinuating in your post that play action might not be such a good option, when watching Brady execute the play action as well as any qb in the game for the last 12 years tells a different tale all together. 

     

    Play action is fine.  As I said, though, it's not a panacea.  And shotgun formations often are at least as successful with this team.  The way many people talk on this board, passing is bad unless Brady is under center and using play action.  The shotgun is some kind of abomination. And running is always good.  It's just silly, because football doesn't work that way and if you think these silly things you can't possibly appreciate how clever our offensive coaches have been for years. 




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  • You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: can the Pats power run all the way to a championship

    In response to rtuinila's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to rtuinila's comment:

    In response to rkarp's comment:

    If we agree to not get giddy over one game (last week) has anyone seen the consistancy from the OL the entire year to lead us to believe they can run at will in the playoffs? 

    I actually thought the key to the run game success last week was due to the Ravens playing pass first, with Suggs and Ngata coming upfield and leaving lanes open. The Ravens also did a good job putting their LB's in that mid field area taking away the quick slants TB loves. 

    All this simply opened up the run game...

    I presume BB will have this team prepared to do anything needed in any game, pass heavy, run heavy or balance, with TB able to execute what ever BB wants. This flexibility ImO has been the key to the pats success. 




    Actually, almost every game this year where they tried to run the ball, they've had pretty good success. How many times have most fans wondered why they stopped running the ball. Pretty much every loss! This year forcing teams to honor the Pats running game has opened up the passing game. It hasn't worked the other way.



    No.  First, they don't "stop" running the ball too often.  And when they do it's usually because it isn't working well and/or they are behind and/or they don't have much time left to come back. If just running more were what they needed to do, Belichick would have figured it out.  

    I can post more plays if need be.  Which loss do you want to look at more closely?




    First what do you consider not working well? if you mean they don't gain a lot of yards each time they run I think that is a very simplistic look at the purpose of running. If the attempts at running didn't move the defense from all out pass d then you're right.

    The run isn't working well when you have too many unproductive runs--basically runs that get minimal yards or go for losses (short yardage situations excepted, of course, when you only need one or two yards).  Those kinds of runs create too many second and longs or third and longs, which pretty much force you into predictable pass situations.  You'll note that the Pats stick with the run when they are getting a fair number of longer runs mixed in with a few short ones.  When the balance shifts toward too many short ones, they will try other things.  You just can't put yourself into too many second and long or third and long situations and expect not to punt a lot.  

     

    I think the don't have much time to come back isn't a real reason to quit the running game. Especially in the hurry-up it is quicker to line up for the next play after a run than it is for a pass (unless the receiver gets out of bounds of course).  I can't remember if the 49er's proved this or the Seahawks but I seem to recall one of those teams went hurry-up run, run, run, run pretty much all the way to a touchdown in a little less than the same amount of time it takes using pass plays.

    This is possible of course, if you are a good running team.  In fact pass plays (when the pass is completed in bounds) typically eat more clock than running plays.  The real difference, though, which many people don't understand is that runs average only about 4 yards per play, while pass plays average nearly twice that.  When you pass, you can cover the same yardage in about half as many plays.  That's why passing allows you to score faster.  A certain amount of passing is also almost always required to sustain long drives.  Great running teams can sustain drives without passing, but most teams need to mix the two.  

     

    On top of that, most of the losses this year were due to the other team coming back on the Pats. Usually after the Pats start going pass happy and abandon the run. It's almost like if you stuff the run two times in a row, the Pats abandon it for the rest of the series or even the half.

    The four losses were all very close games.  Bengals and Panthers were ahead, I believe; Jets and Dolphins were behind.  I don't see them passing wildly with big leads. 

    They seem to start getting away from the run last week but maybe BB talked to McD because it seemed they went back to "committing to the run" again and the O started having success again.

    I think it was situational, mostly. 

    But then again I'm probably wrong.




     
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    Re: can the Pats power run all the way to a championship


    Pro,

     

    You are mistaken, check your post. You said 3 of clevelands 4 sacks came on play action, that is why I cited not establishing a run and coming out throwing.

    Of course shot gun works too. the only person who has said that shot gun is always bad and running is always good, is you in your post above. This is what people do when they become frustrated in a discussion, they sensationalize anothers posters opinion, and try to put words in their mouth.

    What myself and many other posters here would like to see, is a commitment to balance.  We believe it helps our offense, and actually helps the passing game. You seem to think our offense is just fine, no matter who calls plays, no matter what the outcome. It is preposterous to think that coaching and game planning is infallible. Especially when your coaches are plucked for head gigs every few years.

     

     

      We have the greatest QB in NFL history, it is only natural to fall back on his right shoulder, and put the running game on the back burner, its just that from 09 to 2012 we did it often and became a one dimensional offense that no longer took what the defense gave them.

     

     

    I think BB and McD made a concentrated effort to change that last year as we were 2nd in the league in rushing attempts only to seattle. This year despite our injuries and ridleys fumblitis we are still 12th in rushing.

     
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    Re: can the Pats power run all the way to a championship

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:


    Pro,

     

    You are mistaken, check your post. You said 3 of clevelands 4 sacks came on play action, that is why I cited not establishing a run and coming out throwing.

    Of course shot gun works too. the only person who has said that shot gun is always bad and running is always good, is you in your post above. This is what people do when they become frustrated in a discussion, they sensationalize anothers posters opinion, and try to put words in their mouth.

    What myself and many other posters here would like to see, is a commitment to balance.  We believe it helps our offense, and actually helps the passing game. You seem to think our offense is just fine, no matter who calls plays, no matter what the outcome. It is preposterous to think that coaching and game planning is infallible. Especially when your coaches are plucked for head gigs every few years.

     

     

      We have the greatest QB in NFL history, it is only natural to fall back on his right shoulder, and put the running game on the back burner, its just that from 09 to 2012 we did it often and became a one dimensional offense that no longer took what the defense gave them.

     

     

    I think BB and McD made a concentrated effort to change that last year as we were 2nd in the league in rushing attempts only to seattle. This year despite our injuries and ridleys fumblitis we are still 12th in rushing.



    I disagree with the premise here. In 2010 as well as 2012 the Pats were pretty balanced. I consider it only a coincidence but both those teams underachieved in the playoffs compared to 2011 pass crazy team. If the Pats defense plays good the run numbers will be up because a huge portion of the pats run game through the years was running out the clock with the lead. If the Pats are not running it as much as you like it is because Belichick does not think it will be as effective for whatever reason. Sure Belichick and his coordinators make mistakes as it was pointed out in the Miami game. Hightower was on the field for that late Miami TD because they expected a run play. They got burned when Hightower screwed up the play. A team that wins 12 almost every year with a below average defense must be doing something right with the play calling.

     
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    Re: can the Pats power run all the way to a championship

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:


    Pro,

     

    You are mistaken, check your post. You said 3 of clevelands 4 sacks came on play action, that is why I cited not establishing a run and coming out throwing.

    I double checked.  In both games there were four sacks and in both three of those four occured on play action passes.  

    Here's the sequence of plays (all three possessions) that lead up to the first sack in the Cleveland game.  Are they ignoring the run here? They open with an incomplete pass, which puts them into 2nd and 10, so it's not terribly surprising that first sequence never gets a run.  But they go back to the run on the next two sequences.  Their problem (and the only reason they get away from the run) is because they miss on some first down passes.  This creates a situation where passing is more necessary.  It's situational play calling. It's not abandoning the run. 

    ew England Patriots at 09:18

    8-B.Cundiff kicks 65 yards from CLE 35 to end zone, Touchback.

    1-10-NE 20(9:18) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 87-R.Gronkowski.

    2-10-NE 20(9:13) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 87-R.Gronkowski.

    3-10-NE 20(9:10) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 34-S.Vereen to NE 25 for 5 yards (43-T.Ward; 29-L.McFadden).

    4-5-NE 25(8:39) 6-R.Allen punts 53 yards to CLE 22, Center-48-D.Aiken, fair catch by 33-J.Poyer.

    1. New England Patriots at 04:47

    1-10-NE 18(4:47) 29-L.Blount up the middle to NE 24 for 6 yards (52-D.Jackson; 99-P.Kruger).2-4-NE 24(4:19) 29-L.Blount up the middle to NE 35 for 11 yards (39-T.Gipson; 22-B.Skrine).1-10-NE 35(3:51) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 11-J.Edelman.2-10-NE 35(3:45) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short middle to 29-L.Blount [71-A.Rubin].3-10-NE 35(3:41) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass deep left intended for 82-J.Boyce INTERCEPTED by 52-D.Jackson at CLE 44. 52-D.Jackson to CLE 44 for no gain (82-J.Boyce).New England Patriots at 14:45
    8-B.Cundiff kicks 69 yards from CLE 35 to NE -4. 82-J.Boyce to NE 14 for 18 yards (33-J.Poyer).
    1-10-NE 14

    (14:41) 22-S.Ridley left tackle to NE 16 for 2 yards (93-J.Hughes).

    2-8-NE 16

    (14:10) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 34-S.Vereen to NE 23 for 7 yards (52-D.Jackson).

    3-1-NE 23

    (13:40) 29-L.Blount up the middle to NE 24 for 1 yard (53-C.Robertson; 99-P.Kruger).

    1-10-NE 24

    (12:58) 22-S.Ridley right end to NE 27 for 3 yards (39-T.Gipson).

    2-7-NE 27

    (12:18) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 80-D.Amendola to NE 40 for 13 yards (52-D.Jackson).

    1-10-NE 40

    (11:47) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 46-J.Develin to CLE 29 for 31 yards (43-T.Ward; 51-B.Mingo).

    1-10-CLE 29

    (10:58) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 11-J.Edelman. Penalty on NE, Illegal Shift, declined.

    2-10-CLE 29

    (10:53) 12-T.Brady sacked at CLE 37 for -8 yards (51-B.Mingo).

    3-18-CLE 37

    (10:26) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 34-S.Vereen.

    4-18-CLE 37(10:22) 6-R.Allen punts 25 yards to CLE 12, Center-48-D.Aiken, fair catch by 15-D.Bess.

    1.  

    Of course shot gun works too. the only person who has said that shot gun is always bad and running is always good, is you in your post above. This is what people do when they become frustrated in a discussion, they sensationalize anothers posters opinion, and try to put words in their mouth.

    What myself and many other posters here would like to see, is a commitment to balance.  We believe it helps our offense, and actually helps the passing game. You seem to think our offense is just fine, no matter who calls plays, no matter what the outcome. It is preposterous to think that coaching and game planning is infallible. Especially when your coaches are plucked for head gigs every few years.

     I think our offense is damn good.  The stats (points scored, which is the most important of those stats) seem to bear that out.  I'm not saying the coaches are infallible, but I don't see any systemic, ongoing issues with play calling.  I think the offense is run quite well and has been for years regardless of offensive coordinator.  

    I also understand that the Pats pass just slightly above the NFL average.  They are passing roughly 60% of the time this year, while the NFL average is about 58%.  So their commitment to the run is middle of the pack.  I just don't see run-pass balance as an issue for this team.  

     

      We have the greatest QB in NFL history, it is only natural to fall back on his right shoulder, and put the running game on the back burner, its just that from 09 to 2012 we did it often and became a one dimensional offense that no longer took what the defense gave them.

     Again, the myth is that we are pass heavy.  We aren't.  We are right about in the middle of the pack for NFL teams if you look at running percentage.  We are 11th in rushing attempts.  The idea that we "back burner" the run is completely and utterly a misconception. 

     

    I think BB and McD made a concentrated effort to change that last year as we were 2nd in the league in rushing attempts only to seattle. This year despite our injuries and ridleys fumblitis we are still 12th in rushing.

    Yes.  We are rushing plenty.  This idea that we lack balance (at least as balance is defined in today's NFL) is just wrong. Even in 2011, our most unbalanced year recently, we were still near the middle of the pack in rushing percentage. 

     




     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: can the Pats power run all the way to a championship

    In response to ccnsd's comment:

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:


    Pro,

     

    You are mistaken, check your post. You said 3 of clevelands 4 sacks came on play action, that is why I cited not establishing a run and coming out throwing.

    Of course shot gun works too. the only person who has said that shot gun is always bad and running is always good, is you in your post above. This is what people do when they become frustrated in a discussion, they sensationalize anothers posters opinion, and try to put words in their mouth.

    What myself and many other posters here would like to see, is a commitment to balance.  We believe it helps our offense, and actually helps the passing game. You seem to think our offense is just fine, no matter who calls plays, no matter what the outcome. It is preposterous to think that coaching and game planning is infallible. Especially when your coaches are plucked for head gigs every few years.

     

     

      We have the greatest QB in NFL history, it is only natural to fall back on his right shoulder, and put the running game on the back burner, its just that from 09 to 2012 we did it often and became a one dimensional offense that no longer took what the defense gave them.

     

     

    I think BB and McD made a concentrated effort to change that last year as we were 2nd in the league in rushing attempts only to seattle. This year despite our injuries and ridleys fumblitis we are still 12th in rushing.



    I disagree with the premise here. In 2010 as well as 2012 the Pats were pretty balanced. I consider it only a coincidence but both those teams underachieved in the playoffs compared to 2011 pass crazy team. If the Pats defense plays good the run numbers will be up because a huge portion of the pats run game through the years was running out the clock with the lead. If the Pats are not running it as much as you like it is because Belichick does not think it will be as effective for whatever reason. Sure Belichick and his coordinators make mistakes as it was pointed out in the Miami game. Hightower was on the field for that late Miami TD because they expected a run play. They got burned when Hightower screwed up the play. A team that wins 12 almost every year with a below average defense must be doing something right with the play calling.



    Yes, I loved the renewed effort in balance last year, which is why I said we were 2nd in league in rushing. I meant 09, 10, and 11 season. I also recognize 2010 we utilized the run game, but it was due to necessity.  We had to ship Moss and it changed our offense. We knew what we wanted to be, but I would also point to having 2 undrafted FA's as your stArting running backs was a sign of the lack of importance we placed on the run game at that time.

    I am also on record as being a huge Mcdaniels fan. The odds are against us with the amount of injuries, but I feel better knowing BB has the guy who worked under charlie weiss and BB for a long time.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: can the Pats power run all the way to a championship

    In response to ccnsd's comment:

    I disagree with the premise here. In 2010 as well as 2012 the Pats were pretty balanced. I consider it only a coincidence but both those teams underachieved in the playoffs compared to 2011 pass crazy team.



    Completely wrong, in 2010 we were as balanced as we ever were in the Bill O'Brien era IN THE REGULAR SEASON, but in the playoffs we became pass happy and started Danny Woodhead at RB because he was more dangerous in the passing game, that was our undoing.  You know the result...

     
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    Re: can the Pats power run all the way to a championship

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

     


    Pro,

     

    You are mistaken, check your post. You said 3 of clevelands 4 sacks came on play action, that is why I cited not establishing a run and coming out throwing.

    I double checked.  In both games there were four sacks and in both three of those four occured on play action passes.  

    Here's the sequence of plays (all three possessions) that lead up to the first sack in the Cleveland game.  Are they ignoring the run here? They open with an incomplete pass, which puts them into 2nd and 10, so it's not terribly surprising that first sequence never gets a run.  But they go back to the run on the next two sequences.  Their problem (and the only reason they get away from the run) is because they miss on some first down passes.  This creates a situation where passing is more necessary.  It's situational play calling. It's not abandoning the run. 

    ew England Patriots at 09:18

    8-B.Cundiff kicks 65 yards from CLE 35 to end zone, Touchback.

    1-10-NE 20(9:18) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 87-R.Gronkowski.

    2-10-NE 20(9:13) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 87-R.Gronkowski.

    3-10-NE 20(9:10) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 34-S.Vereen to NE 25 for 5 yards (43-T.Ward; 29-L.McFadden).

    4-5-NE 25(8:39) 6-R.Allen punts 53 yards to CLE 22, Center-48-D.Aiken, fair catch by 33-J.Poyer.

    1. New England Patriots at 04:47

    1-10-NE 18(4:47) 29-L.Blount up the middle to NE 24 for 6 yards (52-D.Jackson; 99-P.Kruger).2-4-NE 24(4:19) 29-L.Blount up the middle to NE 35 for 11 yards (39-T.Gipson; 22-B.Skrine).1-10-NE 35(3:51) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 11-J.Edelman.2-10-NE 35(3:45) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short middle to 29-L.Blount [71-A.Rubin].3-10-NE 35(3:41) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass deep left intended for 82-J.Boyce INTERCEPTED by 52-D.Jackson at CLE 44. 52-D.Jackson to CLE 44 for no gain (82-J.Boyce).New England Patriots at 14:45
    8-B.Cundiff kicks 69 yards from CLE 35 to NE -4. 82-J.Boyce to NE 14 for 18 yards (33-J.Poyer).
    1-10-NE 14

    (14:41) 22-S.Ridley left tackle to NE 16 for 2 yards (93-J.Hughes).

    2-8-NE 16

    (14:10) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 34-S.Vereen to NE 23 for 7 yards (52-D.Jackson).

    3-1-NE 23

    (13:40) 29-L.Blount up the middle to NE 24 for 1 yard (53-C.Robertson; 99-P.Kruger).

    1-10-NE 24

    (12:58) 22-S.Ridley right end to NE 27 for 3 yards (39-T.Gipson).

    2-7-NE 27

    (12:18) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 80-D.Amendola to NE 40 for 13 yards (52-D.Jackson).

    1-10-NE 40

    (11:47) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 46-J.Develin to CLE 29 for 31 yards (43-T.Ward; 51-B.Mingo).

    1-10-CLE 29

    (10:58) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 11-J.Edelman. Penalty on NE, Illegal Shift, declined.

    2-10-CLE 29

    (10:53) 12-T.Brady sacked at CLE 37 for -8 yards (51-B.Mingo).

    3-18-CLE 37

    (10:26) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 34-S.Vereen.

    4-18-CLE 37(10:22) 6-R.Allen punts 25 yards to CLE 12, Center-48-D.Aiken, fair catch by 15-D.Bess.

    1.  

     

    Of course shot gun works too. the only person who has said that shot gun is always bad and running is always good, is you in your post above. This is what people do when they become frustrated in a discussion, they sensationalize anothers posters opinion, and try to put words in their mouth.

    What myself and many other posters here would like to see, is a commitment to balance.  We believe it helps our offense, and actually helps the passing game. You seem to think our offense is just fine, no matter who calls plays, no matter what the outcome. It is preposterous to think that coaching and game planning is infallible. Especially when your coaches are plucked for head gigs every few years.

     I think our offense is damn good.  The stats (points scored, which is the most important of those stats) seem to bear that out.  I'm not saying the coaches are infallible, but I don't see any systemic, ongoing issues with play calling.  I think the offense is run quite well and has been for years regardless of offensive coordinator.  

    I also understand that the Pats pass just slightly above the NFL average.  They are passing roughly 60% of the time this year, while the NFL average is about 58%.  So their commitment to the run is middle of the pack.  I just don't see run-pass balance as an issue for this team.  

     

      We have the greatest QB in NFL history, it is only natural to fall back on his right shoulder, and put the running game on the back burner, its just that from 09 to 2012 we did it often and became a one dimensional offense that no longer took what the defense gave them.

     Again, the myth is that we are pass heavy.  We aren't.  We are right about in the middle of the pack for NFL teams if you look at running percentage.  We are 11th in rushing attempts.  The idea that we "back burner" the run is completely and utterly a misconception. 

     

    I think BB and McD made a concentrated effort to change that last year as we were 2nd in the league in rushing attempts only to seattle. This year despite our injuries and ridleys fumblitis we are still 12th in rushing.

    Yes.  We are rushing plenty.  This idea that we lack balance (at least as balance is defined in today's NFL) is just wrong. Even in 2011, our most unbalanced year recently, we were still near the middle of the pack in rushing percentage. 

     

     




     



    You have to be kidding. Look at the play chart you put up, and remember, this is the 1st qtr, we aren't even losing....

    Pass incomplete

    Pass incomplete

    Pass incomplete

    punt

    run 6

    Run 11 1st down

    Pass incomplete

    Pass short

    Pass interception

    Run

    Pass 

    Run 1st down 

    Then we finish the drive with

    Run 3

    Pass

    Pass

    Pass

    Pass sack

    Pass 

    Punt.

    The run game was almost solely responsible for moving the chains. You would point out a short run in short down and distance and paint it a bad play all in order to support your argument.  

    Take a long look at those series of calls, and tell me if sometomes we go away from the run when its working and keep passing when its not.. in the plays you posted we had 5 rushes for 23 yards, 1 was a 3rd and short situation where the 1 yard we gained was the 1st down. 

    We had 13 passes, with 5 completions with 1 interception and 1 sack. Looks like maybe we should have used the Baltimore game plan against cleveland, and maybe we wouldn't have needed another come back.

    .

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: can the Pats power run all the way to a championship

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

     


    Pro,

     

    You are mistaken, check your post. You said 3 of clevelands 4 sacks came on play action, that is why I cited not establishing a run and coming out throwing.

    I double checked.  In both games there were four sacks and in both three of those four occured on play action passes.  

    Here's the sequence of plays (all three possessions) that lead up to the first sack in the Cleveland game.  Are they ignoring the run here? They open with an incomplete pass, which puts them into 2nd and 10, so it's not terribly surprising that first sequence never gets a run.  But they go back to the run on the next two sequences.  Their problem (and the only reason they get away from the run) is because they miss on some first down passes.  This creates a situation where passing is more necessary.  It's situational play calling. It's not abandoning the run. 

    ew England Patriots at 09:18

    8-B.Cundiff kicks 65 yards from CLE 35 to end zone, Touchback.

    1-10-NE 20(9:18) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 87-R.Gronkowski.

    2-10-NE 20(9:13) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 87-R.Gronkowski.

    3-10-NE 20(9:10) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 34-S.Vereen to NE 25 for 5 yards (43-T.Ward; 29-L.McFadden).

    4-5-NE 25(8:39) 6-R.Allen punts 53 yards to CLE 22, Center-48-D.Aiken, fair catch by 33-J.Poyer.

    1. New England Patriots at 04:47

    1-10-NE 18(4:47) 29-L.Blount up the middle to NE 24 for 6 yards (52-D.Jackson; 99-P.Kruger).2-4-NE 24(4:19) 29-L.Blount up the middle to NE 35 for 11 yards (39-T.Gipson; 22-B.Skrine).1-10-NE 35(3:51) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 11-J.Edelman.2-10-NE 35(3:45) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short middle to 29-L.Blount [71-A.Rubin].3-10-NE 35(3:41) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass deep left intended for 82-J.Boyce INTERCEPTED by 52-D.Jackson at CLE 44. 52-D.Jackson to CLE 44 for no gain (82-J.Boyce).New England Patriots at 14:45
    8-B.Cundiff kicks 69 yards from CLE 35 to NE -4. 82-J.Boyce to NE 14 for 18 yards (33-J.Poyer).
    1-10-NE 14

    (14:41) 22-S.Ridley left tackle to NE 16 for 2 yards (93-J.Hughes).

    2-8-NE 16

    (14:10) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 34-S.Vereen to NE 23 for 7 yards (52-D.Jackson).

    3-1-NE 23

    (13:40) 29-L.Blount up the middle to NE 24 for 1 yard (53-C.Robertson; 99-P.Kruger).

    1-10-NE 24

    (12:58) 22-S.Ridley right end to NE 27 for 3 yards (39-T.Gipson).

    2-7-NE 27

    (12:18) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 80-D.Amendola to NE 40 for 13 yards (52-D.Jackson).

    1-10-NE 40

    (11:47) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 46-J.Develin to CLE 29 for 31 yards (43-T.Ward; 51-B.Mingo).

    1-10-CLE 29

    (10:58) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 11-J.Edelman. Penalty on NE, Illegal Shift, declined.

    2-10-CLE 29

    (10:53) 12-T.Brady sacked at CLE 37 for -8 yards (51-B.Mingo).

    3-18-CLE 37

    (10:26) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 34-S.Vereen.

    4-18-CLE 37(10:22) 6-R.Allen punts 25 yards to CLE 12, Center-48-D.Aiken, fair catch by 15-D.Bess.

    1.  

     

    Of course shot gun works too. the only person who has said that shot gun is always bad and running is always good, is you in your post above. This is what people do when they become frustrated in a discussion, they sensationalize anothers posters opinion, and try to put words in their mouth.

    What myself and many other posters here would like to see, is a commitment to balance.  We believe it helps our offense, and actually helps the passing game. You seem to think our offense is just fine, no matter who calls plays, no matter what the outcome. It is preposterous to think that coaching and game planning is infallible. Especially when your coaches are plucked for head gigs every few years.

     I think our offense is damn good.  The stats (points scored, which is the most important of those stats) seem to bear that out.  I'm not saying the coaches are infallible, but I don't see any systemic, ongoing issues with play calling.  I think the offense is run quite well and has been for years regardless of offensive coordinator.  

    I also understand that the Pats pass just slightly above the NFL average.  They are passing roughly 60% of the time this year, while the NFL average is about 58%.  So their commitment to the run is middle of the pack.  I just don't see run-pass balance as an issue for this team.  

     

      We have the greatest QB in NFL history, it is only natural to fall back on his right shoulder, and put the running game on the back burner, its just that from 09 to 2012 we did it often and became a one dimensional offense that no longer took what the defense gave them.

     Again, the myth is that we are pass heavy.  We aren't.  We are right about in the middle of the pack for NFL teams if you look at running percentage.  We are 11th in rushing attempts.  The idea that we "back burner" the run is completely and utterly a misconception. 

     

    I think BB and McD made a concentrated effort to change that last year as we were 2nd in the league in rushing attempts only to seattle. This year despite our injuries and ridleys fumblitis we are still 12th in rushing.

    Yes.  We are rushing plenty.  This idea that we lack balance (at least as balance is defined in today's NFL) is just wrong. Even in 2011, our most unbalanced year recently, we were still near the middle of the pack in rushing percentage. 

     

     

     




     

     

     



    You have to be kidding. Look at the play chart you put up, and remember, this is the 1st qtr, we aren't even losing....

     

    So what.  Passing on first down--even passing a lot isn't necessarily bad play calling. 

     

    Pass incomplete

    Pass incomplete

    Pass incomplete

    punt

    Yes, an incomplete pass on first down tends to set up more passing.  This is not abandoning the run.  It's just what's required in the situation based on what happened on first down.  Poor execution and/or good defense.  But not bad play calling.  You can hardly fault a team for coming out passing in the first series.  There's no rule that you must run on the first play of the game. 

     

    run 6

    Run 11 1st down

    Pass incomplete

    Pass short-- 5 yards

    Pass interception

    Bad execution, but they hardly abandoned the run.  In fact, this series they are trying to establish that they can run.  Mixing in a pass that doesn't work isn't bad play calling however.  It's not like they should run every play.  

     

    Run

    Pass -- for 7 yards--the two runs only got 3 yards together--without this pass the running would have failed to produce the first down. 

    Run 1st down 

    Then we finish the drive with

    Run 3

    Pass -- for 13 yards

    Pass -- for 31 yards

    Pass The incompletion here hurts them and sets up what follows.  But again, not every play is going to be successful, but that doesn't mean the call was bad. 

    Pass sack (this is the play action--remember the point of the whole post was to show that they had been running before this)

    Pass 

    Punt.

    The run game was almost solely responsible for moving the chains. (But still the majority of yards gained are through the air, despite the issues they are having with the pass here.) You would point out a short run in short down and distance and paint it a bad play all in order to support your argument.  

    Take a long look at those series of calls, and tell me if sometomes we go away from the run when its working and keep passing when its not.. in the plays you posted we had 5 rushes for 23 yards, 1 was a 3rd and short situation where the 1 yard we gained was the 1st down.  

    Yes the run was working, which is why the play action was not just coming out of the blue.  They were having execution issues with the pass, but they also had several good pass plays that got significant yardage (56 yards).  You don't give up on the pass quite so quickly either.  Most of the pass calls were required because of situation.  You completely ignore situation in your analysis as if it doesn't matter.  

    We had 13 passes, with 5 completions with 1 interception and 1 sack. Looks like maybe we should have used the Baltimore game plan against cleveland, and maybe we wouldn't have needed another come back.

    .



    Finally, if you really want to understand what's happening, stop looking at run-pass ratios and look at the film and watch the actual plays.  Much of what's going on has to do with how the offense and defense are executing.  It's not the calls that matter as much as the execution.  You talk about NFL football as if it's Tecmo Bowl and if you guess the right play you win.  That's just not how it works. 

     
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    Re: can the Pats power run all the way to a championship

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    In response to ccnsd's comment:

    I disagree with the premise here. In 2010 as well as 2012 the Pats were pretty balanced. I consider it only a coincidence but both those teams underachieved in the playoffs compared to 2011 pass crazy team.



    Completely wrong, in 2010 we were as balanced as we ever were in the Bill O'Brien era IN THE REGULAR SEASON, but in the playoffs we became pass happy and started Danny Woodhead at RB because he was more dangerous in the passing game, that was our undoing.  You know the result...



    How am I wrong? I stated I believe it was a coincidence but losing in the first round is not as good as going to the super bowl which they did in 2011. The Pats were balanced in 2010 against the Jets in the playoffs which has been pointed out ad nauseam by Zbellino. The last 15 Pats offensive plays were passes because the Pats were down 2 scores. Take those plays out (and Chungs silly run) it's 30 passes to 27 runs. If anything the Pats ran it too much in that game. When they finally went all out pass in the 4th quarter they were able to move the ball no problem.

     
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    Re: can the Pats power run all the way to a championship

    In response to ccnsd's comment:

    How am I wrong? I stated I believe it was a coincidence but losing in the first round is not as good as going to the super bowl which they did in 2011. The Pats were balanced in 2010 against the Jets in the playoffs which has been pointed out ad nauseam by Zbellino. The last 15 Pats offensive plays were passes because the Pats were down 2 scores. Take those plays out (and Chungs silly run) it's 30 passes to 27 runs. If anything the Pats ran it too much in that game. When they finally went all out pass in the 4th quarter they were able to move the ball no problem. 



    Danny Woodhead had 14 carries, mainly out of passing formations.  The lack of power run formations was our undoing, using our third down back instead of our 1A back was our undoing.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from ccnsd. Show ccnsd's posts

    Re: can the Pats power run all the way to a championship

    The Pats undoing was a combination of factors. Injuries on the defensive line, a terrible fake punt and very good football played by the Jets. You have now switched your argument. you stated "in 2010 we were as balanced as we ever were in the Bill O'Brien era IN THE REGULAR SEASON, but in the playoffs we became pass happy". Zbellino has shown repeatedly here that was one of our most balanced games of the year until the 4th quarter where the Pats eventually had to abandon the run to try to save the season. If the defense could have gotten a stop in the 4th quarter or gotten a turnover maybe the Pats pull it out. Maybe if Green Ellis runs it 10 more times the Pats win but maybe if the Pats pass it 10 more times they also win. Whats done is done but balance didn't help squat on that day.  

     
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    Re: can the Pats power run all the way to a championship

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    Finally, if you really want to understand what's happening, stop looking at run-pass ratios and look at the film and watch the actual plays.  Much of what's going on has to do with how the offense and defense are executing.  It's not the calls that matter as much as the execution.  You talk about NFL football as if it's Tecmo Bowl and if you guess the right play you win.  That's just not how it works. 



    Teams that run more but also have the talent to pass give themselves a chance to win every time, they are statistically more efficient, this isn't a video game, this is the basis of the Ernhardt-Perkins system of offense; it is conservative, it is boring, it is time tested and proven.

    Control the clock, maintain possession of the ball, play "keep away" from the opposition, play opportunistic defense, take chances because your offense will give you a chance to rest and attack.  This used to frustrate Giants fans in the 80's, the press gave Parcells heck for being "boring" but the reality was "boring" wins, taking short chunks of yardage at a time was efficient and successful.  

    Pass happy is only great in video games, fantasy football and for dome teams that win homefield advantage throughout the playoffs, a rarity in the real world.  The Patriots playing in Foxboro are not that team.  We must be balanced, powerful, we must dictate to our opposition when we will run or pass, most of all we must be hyper efficient and lastly tough.  

    Being a "run and shoot" pass happy team is the exact opposite of the tenents of our offensive system, it isn't an easy concept for casual fans our our team to accept, they much rather prefer the ease and enjoyment of 2007 not realizing that even that team, as good as it was, it was mainly because of play action and a hyper efficient version of our offensive system, the best that it can be, but one that lost it's way by season's end or because of the same injury misery that ended Laurence Maroney's career.

    Balance is good, no matter the opponent, being unpredictable is the great equalizer, whoever the defense is be damned.  You don't let your opponent determine how much you'll run or pass, you set the tone and numbers yourself.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: can the Pats power run all the way to a championship

    In response to ccnsd's comment:

    The Pats undoing was a combination of factors. Injuries on the defensive line, a terrible fake punt and very good football played by the Jets. You have now switched your argument. you stated "in 2010 we were as balanced as we ever were in the Bill O'Brien era IN THE REGULAR SEASON, but in the playoffs we became pass happy". Zbellino has shown repeatedly here that was one of our most balanced games of the year until the 4th quarter where the Pats eventually had to abandon the run to try to save the season. If the defense could have gotten a stop in the 4th quarter or gotten a turnover maybe the Pats pull it out. Maybe if Green Ellis runs it 10 more times the Pats win but maybe if the Pats pass it 10 more times they also win. Whats done is done but balance didn't help squat on that day.  



    Again, giving your third down back (Woodhead) the bulk of carries and limiting your power back and power sets is tantamount the conceding the run to your opponent.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from ccnsd. Show ccnsd's posts

    Re: can the Pats power run all the way to a championship

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    In response to ccnsd's comment:

     

    The Pats undoing was a combination of factors. Injuries on the defensive line, a terrible fake punt and very good football played by the Jets. You have now switched your argument. you stated "in 2010 we were as balanced as we ever were in the Bill O'Brien era IN THE REGULAR SEASON, but in the playoffs we became pass happy". Zbellino has shown repeatedly here that was one of our most balanced games of the year until the 4th quarter where the Pats eventually had to abandon the run to try to save the season. If the defense could have gotten a stop in the 4th quarter or gotten a turnover maybe the Pats pull it out. Maybe if Green Ellis runs it 10 more times the Pats win but maybe if the Pats pass it 10 more times they also win. Whats done is done but balance didn't help squat on that day.  

     



    Again, giving your third down back (Woodhead) the bulk of carries and limiting your power back and power sets is tantamount the conceding the run to your opponent.

     



    Just looked up the game thread. The pats scored 18 Points in the last 18 minutes of the game. They scored 3 times on those 4 drives and on the drive they didn't score they went out on downs on the Jets 34 yard line after starting on their own 18. Seven of Woodheads 14 carries came on those drives. Which means 50% of Woodheads runs were in the comeback when the offense was scoring almost at will. They scored on 3 of their last 4 drives mostly out of a spread offense with Woodhead who also caught 3 passes during those drives. Woodhead had only 6 runs in the first half. Without Woodhead they don't make that comeback which fell short. Which to my point is they should have probably passed more and ran more spread, not less. With Woodhead as the main back over the last 4 drives they score 18 points. They probably under utilized him according to the stats.

     
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    Re: can the Pats power run all the way to a championship

    In response to wozzy's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    Finally, if you really want to understand what's happening, stop looking at run-pass ratios and look at the film and watch the actual plays.  Much of what's going on has to do with how the offense and defense are executing.  It's not the calls that matter as much as the execution.  You talk about NFL football as if it's Tecmo Bowl and if you guess the right play you win.  That's just not how it works. 

     



    Teams that run more but also have the talent to pass give themselves a chance to win every time, they are statistically more efficient, this isn't a video game, this is the basis of the Ernhardt-Perkins system of offense; it is conservative, it is boring, it is time tested and proven.

     

    Control the clock, maintain possession of the ball, play "keep away" from the opposition, play opportunistic defense, take chances because your offense will give you a chance to rest and attack.  This used to frustrate Giants fans in the 80's, the press gave Parcells heck for being "boring" but the reality was "boring" wins, taking short chunks of yardage at a time was efficient and successful.  

    Pass happy is only great in video games, fantasy football and for dome teams that win homefield advantage throughout the playoffs, a rarity in the real world.  The Patriots playing in Foxboro are not that team.  We must be balanced, powerful, we must dictate to our opposition when we will run or pass, most of all we must be hyper efficient and lastly tough.  

    Being a "run and shoot" pass happy team is the exact opposite of the tenents of our offensive system, it isn't an easy concept for casual fans our our team to accept, they much rather prefer the ease and enjoyment of 2007 not realizing that even that team, as good as it was, it was mainly because of play action and a hyper efficient version of our offensive system, the best that it can be, but one that lost it's way by season's end or because of the same injury misery that ended Laurence Maroney's career.

    Balance is good, no matter the opponent, being unpredictable is the great equalizer, whoever the defense is be damned.  You don't let your opponent determine how much you'll run or pass, you set the tone and numbers yourself.



    I guess I don't see where the Pats offense is off.  They are one of the top scoring offenses every year.  They win more games than any other team.  There's all this complaining about the play calling any time they lose, but really how many teams lose so infrequently year after year?  Maybe that's a sign that the offensive coordinators aren't making too many mistakes?

    In the 2010 playoffs their game plan was clearly to emphasize the pass against the Jets (the Jets did have the number three rushing defense in the league and were 23rd against the pass, so passing against them wasn't necessarily dumb).  Fans talk about this as if it's some kind of sin to have a game plan that emphasizes the pass.  The Pats do it a lot . . . and win with it a lot.  Sometimes it doesn't work.  That doesn't mean that they should throw that strategy out and just run the ball every game.  Honestly, they haven't had the quality of defense recently to play like the 1980s Giants or today's Forty Niners.  Ground and pound teams that win almost always have great defenses.  You need that defense because ground and pound typically is not a high-scoring offense.  If the Pats ever get a great defense like they had in the early 200s again, I'm sure the game planning on offense will change a bit to reflect it.  If nothing else, they'll run a lot more late in games when they're ahead.  But as long as the defense is prone to giving up quick scores, the Pats offense is going to be designed to score points fast too.  

     
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    Re: can the Pats power run all the way to a championship

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to wozzy's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    Finally, if you really want to understand what's happening, stop looking at run-pass ratios and look at the film and watch the actual plays.  Much of what's going on has to do with how the offense and defense are executing.  It's not the calls that matter as much as the execution.  You talk about NFL football as if it's Tecmo Bowl and if you guess the right play you win.  That's just not how it works. 

     



    Teams that run more but also have the talent to pass give themselves a chance to win every time, they are statistically more efficient, this isn't a video game, this is the basis of the Ernhardt-Perkins system of offense; it is conservative, it is boring, it is time tested and proven.

     

    Control the clock, maintain possession of the ball, play "keep away" from the opposition, play opportunistic defense, take chances because your offense will give you a chance to rest and attack.  This used to frustrate Giants fans in the 80's, the press gave Parcells heck for being "boring" but the reality was "boring" wins, taking short chunks of yardage at a time was efficient and successful.  

    Pass happy is only great in video games, fantasy football and for dome teams that win homefield advantage throughout the playoffs, a rarity in the real world.  The Patriots playing in Foxboro are not that team.  We must be balanced, powerful, we must dictate to our opposition when we will run or pass, most of all we must be hyper efficient and lastly tough.  

    Being a "run and shoot" pass happy team is the exact opposite of the tenents of our offensive system, it isn't an easy concept for casual fans our our team to accept, they much rather prefer the ease and enjoyment of 2007 not realizing that even that team, as good as it was, it was mainly because of play action and a hyper efficient version of our offensive system, the best that it can be, but one that lost it's way by season's end or because of the same injury misery that ended Laurence Maroney's career.

    Balance is good, no matter the opponent, being unpredictable is the great equalizer, whoever the defense is be damned.  You don't let your opponent determine how much you'll run or pass, you set the tone and numbers yourself.

     



    I guess I don't see where the Pats offense is off.  They are one of the top scoring offenses every year.  They win more games than any other team.  There's all this complaining about the play calling any time they lose, but really how many teams lose so infrequently year after year?  Maybe that's a sign that the offensive coordinators aren't making too many mistakes?

     

    In the 2010 playoffs their game plan was clearly to emphasize the pass against the Jets (the Jets did have the number three rushing defense in the league and were 23rd against the pass, so passing against them wasn't necessarily dumb).  Fans talk about this as if it's some kind of sin to have a game plan that emphasizes the pass.  The Pats do it a lot . . . and win with it a lot.  Sometimes it doesn't work.  That doesn't mean that they should throw that strategy out and just run the ball every game.  Honestly, they haven't had the quality of defense recently to play like the 1980s Giants or today's Forty Niners.  Ground and pound teams that win almost always have great defenses.  You need that defense because ground and pound typically is not a high-scoring offense.  If the Pats ever get a great defense like they had in the early 200s again, I'm sure the game planning on offense will change a bit to reflect it.  If nothing else, they'll run a lot more late in games when they're ahead.  But as long as the defense is prone to giving up quick scores, the Pats offense is going to be designed to score points fast too.  



    I agree with you 100%. And honestly I think it's hilarious that some people who call themselves "rational" think we can change/reinvent our offense with a week left to play in the regualr season. Never mind doing that without the personell to play it. Ground and pound is great! Love it! Wish we could play like that, but in the end it won't matter if we could, because in football your defense needs to stop someone. Fact. And the fact remains our offense has been one of the best in football...our defense? Far from it.

     
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    Re: can the Pats power run all the way to a championship

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:



    I guess I don't see where the Pats offense is off.  They are one of the top scoring offenses every year.  They win more games than any other team.  There's all this complaining about the play calling any time they lose, but really how many teams lose so infrequently year after year?  Maybe that's a sign that the offensive coordinators aren't making too many mistakes?

    In the 2010 playoffs their game plan was clearly to emphasize the pass against the Jets (the Jets did have the number three rushing defense in the league and were 23rd against the pass, so passing against them wasn't necessarily dumb).  Fans talk about this as if it's some kind of sin to have a game plan that emphasizes the pass.  The Pats do it a lot . . . and win with it a lot.  Sometimes it doesn't work.  That doesn't mean that they should throw that strategy out and just run the ball every game.  Honestly, they haven't had the quality of defense recently to play like the 1980s Giants or today's Forty Niners.  Ground and pound teams that win almost always have great defenses.  You need that defense because ground and pound typically is not a high-scoring offense.  If the Pats ever get a great defense like they had in the early 200s again, I'm sure the game planning on offense will change a bit to reflect it.  If nothing else, they'll run a lot more late in games when they're ahead.  But as long as the defense is prone to giving up quick scores, the Pats offense is going to be designed to score points fast too.  



    I don't see where the offense is off this year or last, we just haven't been consistently good but at least McDaniels has had them headed back in the right direction since his return.  We could have this back and forth until the cows come home (we already have), the reality is it is better to have a team that can power run and play a wide open passing attack, not ONLY have a passing attack and a run game that is predicated off that passing attack which is what we had from 2009-2011. 

     
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    Re: can the Pats power run all the way to a championship

    In response to wozzy's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:



    I guess I don't see where the Pats offense is off.  They are one of the top scoring offenses every year.  They win more games than any other team.  There's all this complaining about the play calling any time they lose, but really how many teams lose so infrequently year after year?  Maybe that's a sign that the offensive coordinators aren't making too many mistakes?

     

    In the 2010 playoffs their game plan was clearly to emphasize the pass against the Jets (the Jets did have the number three rushing defense in the league and were 23rd against the pass, so passing against them wasn't necessarily dumb).  Fans talk about this as if it's some kind of sin to have a game plan that emphasizes the pass.  The Pats do it a lot . . . and win with it a lot.  Sometimes it doesn't work.  That doesn't mean that they should throw that strategy out and just run the ball every game.  Honestly, they haven't had the quality of defense recently to play like the 1980s Giants or today's Forty Niners.  Ground and pound teams that win almost always have great defenses.  You need that defense because ground and pound typically is not a high-scoring offense.  If the Pats ever get a great defense like they had in the early 200s again, I'm sure the game planning on offense will change a bit to reflect it.  If nothing else, they'll run a lot more late in games when they're ahead.  But as long as the defense is prone to giving up quick scores, the Pats offense is going to be designed to score points fast too.  

     



    I don't see where the offense is off this year or last, we just haven't been consistently good but at least McDaniels has had them headed back in the right direction since his return.  We could have this back and forth until the cows come home (we already have), the reality is it is better to have a team that can power run and play a wide open passing attack, not ONLY have a passing attack and a run game that is predicated off that passing attack which is what we had from 2009-2011. 

     

     



    I agree with this.  Improving the run game clearly is something the Pats have wanted to do going back to at least 2009.  We all heard BB's quote in A Football Life, where he says the team can't run and can't pass to anyone other than Welker and Moss.  I think BB has been trying to change that.  It started with the addition of the two TEs in 2010, then with the integration of the young running backs starting in 2011.  The TEs really changed the offense; the RBs have been more a work in progress, unfortunately, thanks to Ridley's ball security issues and Vereen's injuries, but clearly BB has wanted to move on from the 2010 backfield of BJGE and Woodhead. Personally, I think our running game has improved and we do use it well most games.  I don't agree with TrueChamp or Rusty that we abandon the run and pass too much.  I think the problem we face now is that the TEs have evaporated, our receiving corp is very much in flux, Ridley continues to have problems holding on to the ball, Vereen is injured a lot still, and we have some issues with the O line (both injuries and talent, I think).  The offense has been under extraordinary duress all year but it's still third in offensive points scored (after Denver and Philadelphia) and seventh in offensive TDs scored.  How people complain about it is beyond me.  In my opinion, the play calling (and the QB) are really the reason this team continues to succeed on offense despite adversity that would make most teams look like the Jaguars.

     

     

     

     

     

     
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    Re: can the Pats power run all the way to a championship

    Also, going back to Bill O'Brien, I don't think he was a bad coordinator.  I think he was looking for creative ways to make the offense better given it's talent issues.  I know a lot of fans hated that 2011 offense with its heavy reliance on the pass, but it scored a ton of points by capitalizing on its strengths: the two TEs, Welker, and Brady.  It definitely lacked diversity and was vulnerable to an injury to any of those key players, but it was highly effective.  I'm sure both O'Brien and Belichick wanted to integrate Ridley and Vereen more that year, but there were problems doing that, which we all know about and which continue to this day (ball security and injury).  I know some would have liked to have seen BJGE play a bigger role, but I don't think the coaches felt he would be effective in a larger role.  That's why the let him walk.  It's also why the Bengals ended up getting another RB and using BJGE in a far more limited role.  He is what he is.  A good complementary player, but not someone you can design your offense around. 

     
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    Re: can the Pats power run all the way to a championship


    We complain about the offense, because we watch it score 35 ppg  year in and year out only to score 14, 13, 21, 17, and 13 again, in its last 5 playoff losses. For the mathematicians that is 15.6 points per game we have scored in our playoff losses since 2007.

    I know putting things this blountly will draw the usual rebuttal from murtl and prolate that I must think BB is am idiot, or they might try and lump me in with rustys insane and ignorant theory that everything is Bradys fault. However, I will be right here saying what ive been saying until last year, our offense was too one dimensional to be productive against good defenses on the biggest stage.

    135 passes to 55 rushes in 3 straight losses( 2 super bowl losses) to the ny giants and we lead more then half of those games. We scored 14, 20, and 17 points which is 16 points per game. I don't care who's fault that problem is, I am just smart enough to know it is indeed a problem.

    Running helps our offense. It doesn't hurt it. 

     
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    Re: can the Pats power run all the way to a championship

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:


    We complain about the offense, because we watch it score 35 ppg  year in and year out only to score 14, 13, 21, 17, and 13 again, in its last 5 playoff losses. For the mathematicians that is 15.6 points per game we have scored in our pkay off losses since 2007.

    I know putting things this blountly will draw the usual rebuttal from murtl and prolate that I must think BB is am idiot, or they might try amd lump me in with rustys insane and ignorant theory that everything is Bradys fault. However, I will be right here saying what ive been saying until last year, our offense was too one dimensional to be productive against good defenses on the biggest stage.

    135 passes to 55 rushes in 3 straight losses( 2 super bowl losses) to the ny giants and we lead more then half of those games. We scored 14, 20, and 17 points which is 16 points per game. I don't care who's fault that problem is, I am just smart enough to know it is indeed a problem.

    Running helps our offense. It doesn't hurt it. 



    GREAT post. The loss of Gronk hurts this team, but they still have a shot if they are balanced offensively and make key stops on defense. With the emergence of Blount, the talent and hard running of Ridley, and the versatile Vereen , they have the personnel to keep defenses honest.

     
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