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Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from palookaski. Show palookaski's posts

    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    Obviously Jays original thread has gone to other robust talk about the game itself, prior Historical facts of games, execution, play calling etc...Thats not what he is looking for.

    What I believe Jay is looking for are our opinions of whom ultimately takes

    the responsibility for the loss and why! He thinks Belichick and so do I.

    In any business the Higher management Ultimately bears the accountability. But before that happens there will be 'others' who will be scorned first. In any business the inner circle of management and knowledge champions always gather periodically and peer review each and every fuction that requires success and All issues are put up for discussion. We the fans can only do this from the outside looking in but still do a fine anaylsis without having inner circle info.
    The gap analysis will reveal what we have NOW and then what we need to Have added value to get back on top.

    Not long ago it was reported in the local media with -Pats players and assistants participating - that when Belichick has a meeting, Belichick does the talking and most all others are simply afraid to speak their minds. If that is the case then Belichick did not learn business at Wesleyan. He did learn Football from a young age from his father and worked himself up from a film cutter with the Broncos in 78 and holds a superior knowledge of the game but apparently knows little about managing a business but then he is a master with the media. He does have some qualities. Jonathan Kraft manages the CAP!

    The question of Micro-management was already mentioned here but needs to go under the microscope a bit. Looking at our History -the past 10 years- is undoubtably success, OK what happened? Parcells bought some great groceries and miraculously a guy Called Brady shows up. Weis and Crennel who SPEAK their MIND are on-board!!!! Belichick adds a few PROVEN FA players and off we go!

    Then what happened? The groceries run short (2006+), not replaced by NY Sirloin but replaced with Mac-N-Cheese. Charlie and Romeo replaced by Lousy brown nosed Coordinators who are micro-managed. Go back and get the groceries, A PROVEN FA hard nosed RB to begin with that WILL make the run work!!!! Football IS STILL based on a good run game!

    Bringing in 18 D'lineman (pre-season) and allowing a D'backfield to degenerate with JAGS who don't know enough to look up and defend a pass is discraceful. We need a break & bend D.

    Coughlin with McBride would not have success with Brady and company the past 10 years? another example: The 49ers with a couple of added groceries and a good coach?

    That was a desperate Head Coach who threw a red flag on a clearly legit catch made only 2 yards from him, I'd bet the screeners upstairs said NO! it was good! So did'nt 107 million others? Having the right groceries will help make up for mental mistakes.

    As Brady goes so goes Belichick....err Belichuckum! Jay, I agree! In my own way! I take responsibility and accountability for what I say here.

    good night/day to all

     

     
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    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on:
    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on : The responibility for the loss is on the entity that lost it. That would be the D who gave up a TD with 57 seconds left. If they do not allow a score we win. Simple. It's called choking in the endgame. Same old same old.
    Posted by BabeParilli


    Yes, but thats not what I'm talking about, maybe Jay too, Dunno. Every team Chokes with miscues. It's the ability to have the necessary talent to execute well and keep drives going and then on defense to make the necessary critical stop. The Pats just don't have the few differencemakers like they had in previous years. The groceries were hardly replenished. I blame the coaching starting with Belichick. Just look at it! We need a RB guy like Jones-Drew and a Jared Allen even if giving up 2 1st and a 2nd rounder to get them. Proven players that will get the job done in the Brady era.

     
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    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on



    I'm not sure you can "blame" the game plan or the coaching for the loss.  You have a better argument if you want to "blame" Belichick as GM for talent decisions.  As I've said many times before, I think Belichick did an amazing coaching job to get this particular team--with its limited talent--as far as he got it.  The problem with the Pats is that they haven't been able to pick up as much good talent--especially on defense but even in certain positions on offense--as they need.  

    As far as the game Sunday, there's a reason why so many experts picked the Giants to win.  All the silly posts about it being "media bias" were wrong.  If you looked at the two teams objectively, it was pretty clear that the Giants had better all-round talent and that the match-ups would be difficult for the Pats. And with Gronk injured, the balance really did swing more heavily in favour of the Giants.  Belichick did a good job coaching the team, I think, but you can't win when you don't have the players you need to sustain drives on offense or get stops on defense.  The Pats just don't have enough of those players right now. That's the whole problem.

    Still, Bill Belichick got this odd collection of a few great players and a whole army of street free agents to the Super Bowl.  That was an amazing coaching feat and he deserves praise for it. 





     
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    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    THE TEAM
     
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    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on:
    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on : Z, Bradshaw carried 17 times (which is the Giants lead back) for 4.1 Jacobs carried 9 for 37(I think) Benny carried 10 for 44 Wood carried 7 for 18. How was Benny not effective. He had the best running production in the game. Bradshaw got stuffed for no gain in the 4rth as well. It happens. Benny has averaged over 4.5 ypc in the last 2 games against the Giants. On 22 carries. Russ is correct in saying the following.... 27 carries to 41 passes when behind is good balance for the Giants, who were the worst run team in the league. They showed a commitment to the run, when wwe did not. We had 17 carries to 42 passes with a lead at half? ? Whats happening to you my man? Replace our int drive with 4 runs in 5 plays(like N.Y did) and we don't turn the ball over, maintain t.o.p and give NY much less time when we throw another incompletion in our 2nd to last drive. I can't believe anyone would try to defense our lack of run commitment. Benny is not a great back.....Neither is Bradshaw as they were dead last in the league at running the ball.
    Posted by TrueChamp


    Champ, you don't seriously believe that their running game won the Super Bowl for the Giants?  It was Eli's 40 passes, 75% completion rate, and 296 yards that kept their offense moving.  And the Giants' success in the passing game wasn't because the Pats' defense was focusing on their running game. In fact, the Pats defended the run pretty well given that they had to keep their safeties back most of the game to prevent even bigger gains in the passing game. 

    The Giants live or die with the pass nearly as much as the Pats do. They, however, have a better defense than the Pats do, their receivers are more difficult to defend (especially with Gronk hurt), and they also played much better on special teams Sunday than the Pats did.  Running 8 more times and passing one less time was not the reason for the game's outcome.






     
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    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    Despite what some call a flawed gameplan on offense and the D giving up the final TD, this game was there for the taking.  I see three or four plays really that changed the game:

    Brady's INT - going for broke when the offense was doing just fine
    Ninkovich in the neutral zone
    Molden 12th man on the field
    Wes Welkers's non-catch/Brady's iffy delivery

    Also, if the Pats land on any of those fumbles by the Giants, this game is a different story. 

    I can appreciate that the Giants won the game, they did what they had to do and it was a close, hard-fought game.  I never expected the Pats to be in the SB and a win for me would've been gravy.  Let's face it, this was a flawed team and they still got there.  It's hard to be angry after you get over the disappointment.     
     
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    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    it is hard to believe that a bill belichick coached team, after two weeks of preparation, would make so many silly mistakes....with all those mistakes, they still had a chance to put the game away with 4 minutes left, but couldnt....and thats ultimately where the game was lost
     
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    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on:
    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on : Champ, you don't seriously believe that their running game won the Super Bowl for the Giants?  It was Eli's 40 passes, 75% completion rate, and 296 yards that kept their offense moving.  And the Giants' success in the passing game wasn't because the Pats' defense was focusing on their running game. In fact, the Pats defended the run pretty well given that they had to keep their safeties back most of the game to prevent even bigger gains in the passing game.  The Giants live or die with the pass nearly as much as the Pats do. They, however, have a better defense than the Pats do, their receivers are more difficult to defend (especially with Gronk hurt), and they also played much better on special teams Sunday than the Pats did.  Running 8 more times and passing one less time was not the reason for the game's outcome.
    Posted by prolate0spheroid


    Like I've always said, as well as almost every succesful offensive coach in NFL history.....The run game opens up the pass.

    Look at the play by play from the 3rt qtr to the 4rth. The Giants are in run formation most of the game. They weren't getting chunks of yards(like BJGE was) but they committed to it and they threw out of the same run formations.

    It is no coincidence we had trouble slowing there passing game late in the 4rth qtr as they had juts put together a string of 5 minute drives(ending in punts or fgs) while we were going 3 and out.

    And yes if we had mixed in more running we would have maintained possession longer, kept our defense off the field and given the Giants much less time to win the game.

    Look at the play by play in the 3rd and 4rth qtr. Giants live in run formation despit Eli throwing for 5000 yards this year. Smart coaching right there.

    When did you start believing that 42 passes to 17 runs is an effective NFL offense? With numbers like that we have put up 14,20 and 17 points against this Giants team.

    You must think there 28th ranked defense is REALLY good to stop our 35 ppg offense 3x in a row.
     
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    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on:
    it is hard to believe that a bill belichick coached team, after two weeks of preparation, would make so many silly mistakes....with all those mistakes, they still had a chance to put the game away with 4 minutes left, but couldnt....and thats ultimately where the game was lost
    Posted by redsoxfan94


    It is no coincidence that after 138 passing atts to 55 rushing atts in the 3 games we played the Giants that they have had the ball inside of 3 minutes to go in the game. Our offense has consistently been unable to get a 1st down in our pass heavy sets.

    The Giants won a very close game because once again they mixed in pass to run effectively and won the battle for field position and the clock. The 2 most basic aspects of winning a football game.

    Fans blame our defense that let up 17 points and 19 points in both SB's well below there average.

    They don't blame our offense which scored 14 and 17 points, which if combined is less then we averaged in ONE GAME this season????
     
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    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on:
    Ridiculous premise.  BB doesn't have wires connected to Bill O'Brien's brain or Brady's brain or Welker's brain, etc. Sorry. The defensive gameplan was very good, the offensive gameplan flawed as usual. The only blame for him is not taking over O'Brien's headset and bitchslapping Brady's wishes to try to throw more to pull away in the game. You wan't to blame him for that, fine. Frankly, I have no idea how this team can look at their fans with a straight face using that same crappy, finesse base offense for another season and expect me or anyone to think that it's going to lead to a SB win. They have literally handed over 3 SBs in 5 years because they didn't want to commit to a run or run it with a lead. I am at the end of my patience rope with the pretend game, so if they don't change this next year, I am done as a fan, until BB and Brady are gone.  That simple. Best coach and QB when they want to be. Period. But, BB can't do it all and control Brady's mind or take over the OC role duuring a game, drugging O'Brien and taking his headset. But, he can change the ideology of the offense, yes. In other words, BB, please slap Brady and now McDaniels.
    Posted by RustyGriswold

    Oh Yeah... Brady and Belichick have to go.

    You are an even bigger moron than I thought!

     
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    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    Rusty will NEVER understand that the Exact reason B.B. wants Brady to throw it so much is because our Defense is a DoorMat!!!


    The defensive Gameplan was very good?  Do you think B.B. wanted no 3 and outs?  Do you think he wanted Vince to be a no show and for us to get gashed in the run game making Eli more effective as a passer and killing our offense in the process?


    B.B. LIKES to THROW. With our MAtador defense you cant afford to run Benny 40 times a game.

    The shortest Giants drive was 8 plays!!!! 

    When you stop being delusional about our defense making statements like we are as good as the texans defense, and maybe if you watch other teams you will see how bad our defense is. Do they compete and get turnovers? Yes, but they spend way too much time trying to get off the field and THIS is why Brady has to throw a Ton.

     
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    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    Even ref had no faith in Patriots' defense

    February, 9, 2012
    Feb 9
    2:30
    PM ET
    NFL Films does a wonderful job replaying live sound from the previous week's games. That is why I was interested to hear what players and coaches had to say during Sunday's Super Bowl XLVI between the New England Patriots and New York Giants.

    It was an emotional game where momentum swung from New York to New England and back to New York. The Giants won the game, 21-17. But there were two very interesting tidbits I took from New England's perspective.

    First, following a fourth-quarter drop by Patriots receiver Wes Welker, NFL referee John Parry said to another official: "That was the game." Keep in mind New England was winning, 17-15, late and was about to punt the ball deep in New York's territory.

    It showed even officials involved in the Super Bowl knew that New England's 31st-ranked defense wasn't going to make a big stop to win a championship. The ref's thought process at that moment wasn't any different from the media and fans who closely watched the Patriots all season.

    Second, on New York's final drive, Patriots coach Bill Belichick encouraged his defense to let the Giants throw to Mario Manningham, who made the big 38-yard grab to get New York's Super Bowl-winning drive started.

    "This is still a [Victor] Cruz and [Hakeem] Nicks game," Belichick said on the sidelines. "I know we're right on them. It's tight but those are still the guys. Make them go to Manningham, make them go to [Bear] Pascoe. Let's make sure we get Cruz and Nicks."

    The Patriots were a team this season that thrived and executed under pressure. But these fourth-quarter mishaps by Welker and Belichick/New England's defense were the difference in Super Bowl XLVI.
     
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    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    In Response to Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on:
    Bill Belicheck. Every player on the team probably feels they could have done more to contribute but the fact is, they didnt. The coaches job is to put the players in positon to make plays. 1.) After your field position was established at the 4 yard line, why didnt B.B. overide the call that was a playaction, 7 step drop into the endzone with 3 long developing routes? 2.) Why did he play the defensive tackles out wide closer to the ends? I assume its because he wanted the ends to get one on one matchups. It looked ok the first drive. After that, the Giants caught on and gashed us while double teaming Wilfork. 3.) When we were getting gashed(because we had to stay in cover 2) B.B. decided to take out Deaderick and put in Ellis to better the run defense. Cant say if it worked because the Giants were passing too but taking out Deaderick ensured he wouldnt get any more sacks. Ellis never sniffed Eli 4.) Above I pointed a clear change in the defense as a result of not being able to stop the run that made us less effective in rushing the passer. 4.) 12 men on the field on defense!?!?  This is what happens when you tell your CB to keep switching back from CB to Safety. eventually they are gonna get confused. Molden thought he was in at Cb, but it was someone else. 5.) Knowing how the Giants covered the middle of the field, how many passes were called outside the hash marks??  2, one to Deion and one to Ocho?!  Does Ocho have a one catch limit that he cant get any more balls thrown his way? 6.) Run the ball with your Lead Back. I get why Danny was in there for the passing game but he got too many carries and did nothing with it. This falls on B.B., not Brady..ahem, Rusty. 7.) Coach Ferrel said he had a hard time adjusting when we went no huddle and was surpised that we didnt run that offense more.( I think they were scared to go 3 and out, and already behind in T.O.P. so they backed off) 8.) After contuining to give up runs, we never brought a safety down in the box for fear of getting burnt over the top. I get it, but it didnt help with our offense sitting on the sideline all night. 9.) B.B. challened the Manningham catch which was clearly a catch with the first replay showing both feet hit the ground. Could have used the extra T.O. 10.) A coaching staff of B.B., Obie, Joshy, Matty P should not be outcoached by Coughlin, Ferrel and McBride. They had a few plays where things were going good and then resorted back the stale playcalling we've been accustomed to and lost the game On 3rd and 11 after the wes drop, Brady had Edleman, branch, Ocho and Nate Soldier on the field as recieving options. Really?  Those are the guys you count on in the clutch? Why not go back to Wes again and let him make up for it like most Qb's do?  Well, he doesnt call in the personell. I am not mad about the loss as i saw a team in the giants who were destined to win. I believe even is Wes makes the catch, something else may have happened. We were that unlucky that night. It wasnt in the cards. Brady n Wes failed on routine play and Eli and Manningham executed a great play. Game Over Now, Why is it that B.B. seems to be always outcoached in big games as of late and his gameplans leave you scratching your head??? Anybody?  oK Rusty has his hand up......anyone else....lol
    Posted by JayShizzle45


    Disagree; here's guessing if they accentuated the run more, you would probably ask why they weren't defending the pass. GIANTS were last in the league in rushing yds; admittedly, that # was skewed due to injuries to Bradshaw & the OL (which had to be reinvented late in the yr as a result), but it's the passing game that makes them who they are, and you're not going to shut it down all game no matter what. Given the horses he had, Bellichick's game plan was terrific, IMO; holding that team to 21 points, and playing them almost as well as SF, who has the best D in the game. And he cannot worry about every square inch on the field either; if anything, that's for his assistants to manage, if even them. Also, FWIW, luck wasn't on their side either; they didn't get the bounces.
     
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    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    Tom Brady re-aggravated his left (non-throwing) shoulder on a third-quarter back by New York Giants defensive end Justin Tuck, says the Boston Herald.

    Brady got up slowly and backup Brian Hoyer was warming up on the sideline, though the New England Patriots star QB did not miss a snap. The report said Brady did not need treatment following the hit and it not believed that it will linger into the off-season. However, following the sack, Brady hit only 7 of his last 17 passes in the 21-17 loss.

    Brady dinged the shoulder earlier in the season and missed a practice to rest it during the week of the AFC Championship Game against Baltimore.

    Before the injury, Brady had set a new Super Bowl record throwing 16 straight completions in a row.  As far as I'm concerned, the Giants pulled off a lucky shot on Brady.  This stuff happens.

     
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    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on:
    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on : Like I've always said, as well as almost every succesful offensive coach in NFL history.....The run game opens up the pass. Look at the play by play from the 3rt qtr to the 4rth. The Giants are in run formation most of the game. They weren't getting chunks of yards(like BJGE was) but they committed to it and they threw out of the same run formations. It is no coincidence we had trouble slowing there passing game late in the 4rth qtr as they had juts put together a string of 5 minute drives(ending in punts or fgs) while we were going 3 and out. And yes if we had mixed in more running we would have maintained possession longer, kept our defense off the field and given the Giants much less time to win the game. Look at the play by play in the 3rd and 4rth qtr. Giants live in run formation despit Eli throwing for 5000 yards this year. Smart coaching right there. When did you start believing that 42 passes to 17 runs is an effective NFL offense? With numbers like that we have put up 14,20 and 17 points against this Giants team. You must think there 28th ranked defense is REALLY good to stop our 35 ppg offense 3x in a row.
    Posted by TrueChamp



    But one of the reasons the Giants can throw successfully from run formations is they have receivers who can stretch the field vertically.  We need to do a horizontal stretch because we don't have any deep threats.  That requires more spread offenses.  The problem with the Pats as I have been saying all season is they don't have the talent to do what you are recommending.  It's not that running and running formations are bad things--it's just that the Pats' players aren't made for that kind of game.  If you and Rusty are right, then BB either is an idiot when it comes to offense or (as Rusty seems to think) lacks control of his offensive coordinator and quarterback.  Neither of those possibilities seems credible to me.  There is another explanation for why we don't run much or used run formations that much: that explanation is that we don't have the right talent.  Why people can't see that and insist instead that Belichick has had a five-year brain f@rt is beyond me. 
     
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    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on:
    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on : But one of the reasons the Giants can throw successfully from run formations is they have receivers who can stretch the field vertically.  We need to do a horizontal stretch because we don't have any deep threats.  That requires more spread offenses.  The problem with the Pats as I have been saying all season is they don't have the talent to do what you are recommending.  It's not that running and running formations are bad things--it's just that the Pats' players aren't made for that kind of game.  If you and Rusty are right, then BB either is an idiot when it comes to offense or (as Rusty seems to think) lacks control of his offensive coordinator and quarterback.  Neither of those possibilities seems credible to me.  There is another explanation for why we don't run much or used run formations that much: that explanation is that we don't have the right talent.  Why people can't see that and insist instead that Belichick has had a five-year brain f@rt  is beyond me. 
    Posted by prolate0spheroid


    Prolate no offense but you are constantly making excuses as to why we are a one dimensional offense. Sure we can use a guy to run deep routes but imo Brady no longer has the accuracy needed to throw the ball deep.

    Plenty of QB's have been successful without the ability to throw deep. We did it for years before Moss, only occasionally going deep to Patten or Brown. Trick plays or gadget plays like the Dieon Branch td against Pitt in the playoffs years back.

    For you to suggest that this team does not have enough/the right talent is crazy imo. We just broke Marino's record for passing yards. I don't think its crazy for BB to be enamored with Brady's ability to throw the ball. I am not trying to insinuate I know more then BB.

    With all opinions aside, our offense has scored:

    SB 07- 14 points against the giants.

    November - 20 points but 3 in the 1st 3 qtr's against the giants.

    SB 2012 - 17 points against the Giants.

    The last 2 games we had a RB who ran 22 carries for 100 yards yet threw the ball too much causing 3 interceptions and a sack fumble.

    Our offense has averaged 17 ppg in the loss. Down from 34 ppg

    Our defense has averaged 19.6 ppg in there losses, less then what they give up on average.

    138 pass atts to 55 rushes and only 17 ppg to show for it.

    Proof is in the pudding broski.
     
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    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on:
    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on : Prolate no offense but you are constantly making excuses as to why we are a one dimensional offense. Sure we can use a guy to run deep routes but imo Brady no longer has the accuracy needed to throw the ball deep. Plenty of QB's have been successful without the ability to throw deep. We did it for years before Moss, only occasionally going deep to Patten or Brown. Trick plays or gadget plays like the Dieon Branch td against Pitt in the playoffs years back. For you to suggest that this team does not have enough/the right talent is crazy imo. We just broke Marino's record for passing yards. I don't think its crazy for BB to be enamored with Brady's ability to throw the ball. I am not trying to insinuate I know more then BB. With all opinions aside, our offense has scored: SB 07- 14 points against the giants. November - 20 points but 3 in the 1st 3 qtr's against the giants. SB 2012 - 17 points against the Giants. The last 2 games we had a RB who ran 22 carries for 100 yards yet threw the ball too much causing 3 interceptions and a sack fumble. Our offense has averaged 17 ppg in the loss. Down from 34 ppg Our defense has averaged 19.6 ppg in there losses, less then what they give up on average. 138 pass atts to 55 rushes and only 17 ppg to show for it. Proof is in the pudding broski.
    Posted by TrueChamp



    The two other great passing teams this year (GB and NO) each have seven guys with at least 20 catches and at least 200 yards.  The Pats have just four.  That's the reason we're one-dimensional.  We lack weapons in the passing game.  It's not an excuse.  It's a fact. 

    And it's not just because BB is some kind of stubborn idiot who is over-enamored with those four guys and won't call plays for anyone else.  It's because Ocho, and Edelman, and Underwood, and Benny, and even Woodhead are not great receivers. 

    And handing the ball to a mediocre back like Benny is not going to make this team better.  Getting more receiving targets--or a better running back--would.  But until we get the talent, I'm afraid we're going to remain one dimensional.  It's not the coach.

     
     
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