Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

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    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on:
    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on : No way.  Execution of the play is meaningless.  It's all about who called the play. Of course it's execution. And the biggest "if" would be "if" Gronkowski, the best player on the Patriots not named Brady, hadn't been crippled, they likely would have scored the 30 or so they average all season.  But that's football. 
    Posted by zbellino

    "Execution" is meaningless?  Come on!  Yes, we can say maybe the "right" play wasn't called, but, either way, any play called has to be executed.  We can agree, the Giants had plays that "worked" better for them and they got some breaks fall their way, too.  Still doesn't change the outcome.  We all need to party now and take our shirts off!!!
     
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    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on:
    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on : "Execution" is meaningless?  Come on!  Yes, we can say maybe the "right" play wasn't called, but, either way, any play called has to be executed.  We can agree, the Giants had plays that "worked" better for them and they got some breaks fall their way, too.  Still doesn't change the outcome.  We all need to party now and take our shirts off!!!
    Posted by agcsbill


    You're both right.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from GEAUX-TIGRES. Show GEAUX-TIGRES's posts

    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on:
    Geaux Tigres, No. I'd have to go back and re-watch every game.  We can guess by seeing what he does, what he motions, etc, but I can't remember it as the game unfolds. I would venture to guess BB/O'Brien and Brady all quuckly chat about what they see at halftime, but Brady is the QB and a great one, so there may be something to the idea where Brady has too much power in the final decisions. What we do know is, OB calls in at least 2 plays to Brady.  Sometimes 3. I know this because there was an article written by I think Vic Carruci back in 2009 (I think), where he says Manning and Brady get multiple plays called and  have autonomy. Now, some teams may have built in audibles beind the original playcall in hte playbook, but if you give a Manning or a Brady 3 to choose from, this means those QBs are basically running the game. When O'Brien blew up on Brady in Washington on that shotgun spread junk from the 2 yard line, I think that was because Brady was choosing passes and was probably bypassing the order of why O'Brien wanted plays called.  O'Brien may have called in 2 runs and 1 pass and Brady chose the pass. Otherwise, why get so angry over a dumb INT in Washington? It's dumb, but at the point of the game, it wasn't like the game was lost. It could have been as the FG there is just fine just like in the Balt AFC Title game here or the SB this past Sunday when Brady launched that reckless INT. In fact, NE's D bailed out Brady with a Mayo INT in DC, which just yet again reinforces the premise. Something like that. I was glad O'Brien did that (blew up on him on national tv). I think it took Brady off guard, but I also that's a reflection of the frayed ideology of each O'Brien and Brady. I thought maybe that would yet again rein Brady in, but then the Miami game came where we saw more shotgun obsession and our offense was abysmal in the first half, unable to mvoe the sticks past the 50 yard line for an entire HALF. My god in heaven. Holy mackerel. I also think O'Brien was backed by BB when dealing Moss after Week 4 in 2010, where in turn, O'Brien felt comfortable doing his job. I think this is why we saw better balance in 2010 v.s. 2011.  I think O'Brien was great Week 5 -- />Week 17 in 2010, but Brady got control in the playoff gameplan. They changed what they dominated with just 4 weeks earlier. I called Cromartie on Branch in December, said it would be a mistake, it was, and then you knew no way NY would use him on Branch again, so why didn't we know that going into that game?  Why did we throw into it? It's fairly sad that you're so enamored with passing that even though you blasted your rival 45-3 with Brady throwing 27 times, BJGE running amuck, you feel a need to alter your approach.  Yep, pretty sad. BB promotes O'Brien after 2010's season, with the official title which means O;Brien gets a raise, and it also then attracts morons at Penn State to think he's some great coordinator. Personally, I would have had more respect for O'Brien if he continued to bitchslap Brady like he did in Week 4 and Week 5, where Brady was great and we used a lethal rushing attack to annhilate the Raiders and Jets. Now, granted, those D's aren't very good, but in man coverages, the run game then forced some zone, which is what O'Brien should be shooting for during a game (See Revis torched in zone in the second half of the Pats/Jets game in FOxborough). Perfect example of how to use patience, use all your weapons and then dictate from there, opening it up more in the second half. But, if you are throwing at Brady's rates where he's up to 35+ passes, that's a win for the opponent's D because they know deep down, Brady wants to pass. Even the road Jets game was Brady wisely reined in with good running (not production wise), Brady under Center, etc, and even him wildly throwing 3 dropped picks, the patience in the first half showing BJGE and Ridley, opened up what he did in the second half. What's even more sad is, this offense is the offense when know it can be when BJGE and Ridley are used in the same way as lead backs. Look at any drive when either is used as a lead back, even against man coverages, and you'll see long drives and some version of points being score and no INTs from Brady. People will complain about BB's draft, his defense, etc, next year, all over again regardless of facts, but until I see this "problem" fixed. The problem is the offensive ideology and its many flaws since 2005.
    Posted by RustyGriswold

    My understanding is that Manning has free reins to call his own game. Probably the last breed of a Jurassic ideology and ultimately eliminates the OC's input to a certain degree. The assistants up in the crow's nest have a much broader and more advantageous overview of the entire opposing defense. I think somehow he is given limited choices and that is probably the reason he audibles so frequently. With his quick reads and delivery his progressions are probably whittled down to only a couple vs. a 5 progression in the likes of a Montana and back to his first for a completion. PM is always making changes and I don't know because I haven't counted, but I don't expect or recall him not changing up before the snap. One of the traits that makes him great.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from tanbass. Show tanbass's posts

    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    Saying "who the loss falls on" is placing blame....plain and simple.

    I for one am pretty sick & tired of the stupid blame game. Does it matter? We did not play well enough to win the game....end of story.

    Both sides of the ball need work, so Thank God the draft is right around the corner. Worry about blaming anyone is a waste of time.....seriously...move on already!!
     
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    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on:


     I am speechless . . . .

    Posted by RustyGriswold






    If only we were so lucky!


     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    The team. The entire team. GM, coaching on down. The loss falls on the entire team. We can pick over the rubble for dicsussion post fodder if we want, but it's a team loss and in that situation every party is accountable.
     
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    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on:
    Saying "who the loss falls on" is placing blame....plain and simple. I for one am pretty sick & tired of the stupid blame game. Does it matter? We did not play well enough to win the game....end of story. Both sides of the ball need work, so Thank God the draft is right around the corner. Worry about blaming anyone is a waste of time.....seriously...move on already!!
    Posted by tanbass


    i don't see it as a blame game. i see it as an analysis of what went wrong, what can the team learn so that they succeed the next time around.
     
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    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on:
    When you throw 75-80% of the time it's like telling your chess partner your next move. Against an average player you can win, against a top line player you can't. When a pass rushing team knows you are going to pass you have handed them your "next" move. They will come at you hard every snap putting tremendous pressure on your O line. You have 2 choices.... Begin to run the ball to counter the rush.... or Build an O line that takes no prisoners.... Against teams like the Ravens, Jets, Steelers, Giants, 49ers and the like you run into trouble. These teams come at you like you harmed a family member. Against the Giants in 08, Ravens in 10, Jets in 11 and Giants in 12 we passed the majority of the time and the pass rushing teams capitalized on this and we didn't score much and lost. Going forward we either... Run the damn ball..... Or build a Peyton Manning type of O line that can defend Brady like the US Secret Service.
    Posted by NoMorePensionLooting


    The Patriots throw 75-80% of the time?  Can you cite a single example of a game in which they threw this much? 
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on:
    So no answer to my question.  5.1 ypc vs 3.7? And BJGE would have had 20 carries if he were effective  with the ten he had gotten.
    Posted by zbellino


    Hey, I'll take the 5.1!
     
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    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on:
    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on : Wrong.  It's how he was used. Once they started to use Woodhead as a lead back in the first half, that's a problem. That's problem #1. They had a chance to just unload a healthy BJGE and Ridley type approach oin the second and subsequent drives after the first TD drive out of halftime and they ddin't. Problem #2. I would have bet money with you on the spot that if they did what I just suggested (BJGE or RIdley in the second half as lead back), his YPC average would have been FAR better than 3.7 if he had been used. Yep. If he got around 20 carries, Brady doesn't throw that pick and I bet Welker never has that drop. And guess what? We win. YEP
    Posted by RustyGriswold


    I bet if Brady had thrown the ball 100 times we would have won.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from palookaski. Show palookaski's posts

    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    Obviously Jays original thread has gone to other robust talk about the game itself, prior Historical facts of games, execution, play calling etc...Thats not what he is looking for.

    What I believe Jay is looking for are our opinions of whom ultimately takes

    the responsibility for the loss and why! He thinks Belichick and so do I.

    In any business the Higher management Ultimately bears the accountability. But before that happens there will be 'others' who will be scorned first. In any business the inner circle of management and knowledge champions always gather periodically and peer review each and every fuction that requires success and All issues are put up for discussion. We the fans can only do this from the outside looking in but still do a fine anaylsis without having inner circle info.
    The gap analysis will reveal what we have NOW and then what we need to Have added value to get back on top.

    Not long ago it was reported in the local media with -Pats players and assistants participating - that when Belichick has a meeting, Belichick does the talking and most all others are simply afraid to speak their minds. If that is the case then Belichick did not learn business at Wesleyan. He did learn Football from a young age from his father and worked himself up from a film cutter with the Broncos in 78 and holds a superior knowledge of the game but apparently knows little about managing a business but then he is a master with the media. He does have some qualities. Jonathan Kraft manages the CAP!

    The question of Micro-management was already mentioned here but needs to go under the microscope a bit. Looking at our History -the past 10 years- is undoubtably success, OK what happened? Parcells bought some great groceries and miraculously a guy Called Brady shows up. Weis and Crennel who SPEAK their MIND are on-board!!!! Belichick adds a few PROVEN FA players and off we go!

    Then what happened? The groceries run short (2006+), not replaced by NY Sirloin but replaced with Mac-N-Cheese. Charlie and Romeo replaced by Lousy brown nosed Coordinators who are micro-managed. Go back and get the groceries, A PROVEN FA hard nosed RB to begin with that WILL make the run work!!!! Football IS STILL based on a good run game!

    Bringing in 18 D'lineman (pre-season) and allowing a D'backfield to degenerate with JAGS who don't know enough to look up and defend a pass is discraceful. We need a break & bend D.

    Coughlin with McBride would not have success with Brady and company the past 10 years? another example: The 49ers with a couple of added groceries and a good coach?

    That was a desperate Head Coach who threw a red flag on a clearly legit catch made only 2 yards from him, I'd bet the screeners upstairs said NO! it was good! So did'nt 107 million others? Having the right groceries will help make up for mental mistakes.

    As Brady goes so goes Belichick....err Belichuckum! Jay, I agree! In my own way! I take responsibility and accountability for what I say here.

    good night/day to all

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on:
    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on : He ended up with 40 because they were TRAILING.  Are you struggling with this concept, too? If not the last drive or being handed a Safety which gave them an extra possesion, he doesn't end up with 40.  Nor the gift INT with them TRAILING. 40 passes, 27 runs is balanced when TRAILING. Our 41 passes and 17 runs is not when LEADING. Get it? Trust me, you're just backing yourself into a corner here. The board is waiting on confessionals from you, Prolate, Patsman3/Phat Rex and Tom Penny. We're waiting. I am probably missing a few, too.
    Posted by RustyGriswold


    You're starting to zone on us here. They never trailed by more than one score. One score doesn't force you to throw unless it's the very last minutes.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on:
    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on : No way.  Execution of the play is meaningless.  It's all about who called the play. Of course it's execution. And the biggest "if" would be "if" Gronkowski, the best player on the Patriots not named Brady, hadn't been crippled, they likely would have scored the 30 or so they average all season.  But that's football. 
    Posted by zbellino


    Yeah. But that's too obvious.

    We must use this as we use all things to grind our favorite axe, whether that be bashing Brady, ranting nonsense about the "spread", feeding our running game fetish or trying to hype a D that has FAILed in the endgame for years.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    So tell me Mr. Griswald....

    Why can't BB reign in the maniacal Brady/OB and make them stop passing so much?

    Is he weak?

    Does he just not "get it"?

    Maybe he could fit Tom with a shock collar and every time he calls a spread he could zap him?
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on:
    Obviously Jays original thread has gone to other robust talk about the game itself, prior Historical facts of games, execution, play calling etc...Thats not what he is looking for. What I believe Jay is looking for are our opinions of whom ultimately takes the responsibility for the loss and why! He thinks Belichick and so do I. In any business the Higher management Ultimately bears the accountability. But before that happens there will be 'others' who will be scorned first. In any business the inner circle of management and knowledge champions always gather periodically and peer review each and every fuction that requires success and All issues are put up for discussion. We the fans can only do this from the outside looking in but still do a fine anaylsis without having inner circle info. The gap analysis will reveal what we have NOW and then what we need to Have added value to get back on top. Not long ago it was reported in the local media with -Pats players and assistants participating - that when Belichick has a meeting, Belichick does the talking and most all others are simply afraid to speak their minds. If that is the case then Belichick did not learn business at Wesleyan. He did learn Football from a young age from his father and worked himself up from a film cutter with the Broncos in 78 and holds a superior knowledge of the game but apparently knows little about managing a business but then he is a master with the media. He does have some qualities. Jonathan Kraft manages the CAP! The question of Micro-management was already mentioned here but needs to go under the microscope a bit. Looking at our History -the past 10 years- is undoubtably success, OK what happened? Parcells bought some great groceries and miraculously a guy Called Brady shows up. Weis and Crennel who SPEAK their MIND are on-board!!!! Belichick adds a few PROVEN FA players and off we go! Then what happened? The groceries run short (2006+), not replaced by NY Sirloin but replaced with Mac-N-Cheese. Charlie and Romeo replaced by Lousy brown nosed Coordinators who are micro-managed. Go back and get the groceries, A PROVEN FA hard nosed RB to begin with that WILL make the run work!!!! Football IS STILL based on a good run game! Bringing in 18 D'lineman (pre-season) and allowing a D'backfield to degenerate with JAGS who don't know enough to look up and defend a pass is discraceful. We need a break & bend D. Coughlin with McBride would not have success with Brady and company the past 10 years? another example: The 49ers with a couple of added groceries and a good coach? That was a desperate Head Coach who threw a red flag on a clearly legit catch made only 2 yards from him, I'd bet the screeners upstairs said NO! it was good! So did'nt 107 million others? Having the right groceries will help make up for mental mistakes. As Brady goes so goes Belichick....err Belichuckum! Jay, I agree! In my own way! I take responsibility and accountability for what I say here. good night/day to all  
    Posted by palookaski


    The responibility for the loss is on the entity that lost it. That would be the D who gave up a TD with 57 seconds left.

    If they do not allow a score we win. Simple. It's called choking in the endgame.

    Same old same old.
     
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    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on:
    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on : The responibility for the loss is on the entity that lost it. That would be the D who gave up a TD with 57 seconds left. If they do not allow a score we win. Simple. It's called choking in the endgame. Same old same old.
    Posted by BabeParilli


    Yes, but thats not what I'm talking about, maybe Jay too, Dunno. Every team Chokes with miscues. It's the ability to have the necessary talent to execute well and keep drives going and then on defense to make the necessary critical stop. The Pats just don't have the few differencemakers like they had in previous years. The groceries were hardly replenished. I blame the coaching starting with Belichick. Just look at it! We need a RB guy like Jones-Drew and a Jared Allen even if giving up 2 1st and a 2nd rounder to get them. Proven players that will get the job done in the Brady era.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on



    I'm not sure you can "blame" the game plan or the coaching for the loss.  You have a better argument if you want to "blame" Belichick as GM for talent decisions.  As I've said many times before, I think Belichick did an amazing coaching job to get this particular team--with its limited talent--as far as he got it.  The problem with the Pats is that they haven't been able to pick up as much good talent--especially on defense but even in certain positions on offense--as they need.  

    As far as the game Sunday, there's a reason why so many experts picked the Giants to win.  All the silly posts about it being "media bias" were wrong.  If you looked at the two teams objectively, it was pretty clear that the Giants had better all-round talent and that the match-ups would be difficult for the Pats. And with Gronk injured, the balance really did swing more heavily in favour of the Giants.  Belichick did a good job coaching the team, I think, but you can't win when you don't have the players you need to sustain drives on offense or get stops on defense.  The Pats just don't have enough of those players right now. That's the whole problem.

    Still, Bill Belichick got this odd collection of a few great players and a whole army of street free agents to the Super Bowl.  That was an amazing coaching feat and he deserves praise for it. 





     
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    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    THE TEAM
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on:
    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on : Z, Bradshaw carried 17 times (which is the Giants lead back) for 4.1 Jacobs carried 9 for 37(I think) Benny carried 10 for 44 Wood carried 7 for 18. How was Benny not effective. He had the best running production in the game. Bradshaw got stuffed for no gain in the 4rth as well. It happens. Benny has averaged over 4.5 ypc in the last 2 games against the Giants. On 22 carries. Russ is correct in saying the following.... 27 carries to 41 passes when behind is good balance for the Giants, who were the worst run team in the league. They showed a commitment to the run, when wwe did not. We had 17 carries to 42 passes with a lead at half? ? Whats happening to you my man? Replace our int drive with 4 runs in 5 plays(like N.Y did) and we don't turn the ball over, maintain t.o.p and give NY much less time when we throw another incompletion in our 2nd to last drive. I can't believe anyone would try to defense our lack of run commitment. Benny is not a great back.....Neither is Bradshaw as they were dead last in the league at running the ball.
    Posted by TrueChamp


    Champ, you don't seriously believe that their running game won the Super Bowl for the Giants?  It was Eli's 40 passes, 75% completion rate, and 296 yards that kept their offense moving.  And the Giants' success in the passing game wasn't because the Pats' defense was focusing on their running game. In fact, the Pats defended the run pretty well given that they had to keep their safeties back most of the game to prevent even bigger gains in the passing game. 

    The Giants live or die with the pass nearly as much as the Pats do. They, however, have a better defense than the Pats do, their receivers are more difficult to defend (especially with Gronk hurt), and they also played much better on special teams Sunday than the Pats did.  Running 8 more times and passing one less time was not the reason for the game's outcome.






     
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    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    Despite what some call a flawed gameplan on offense and the D giving up the final TD, this game was there for the taking.  I see three or four plays really that changed the game:

    Brady's INT - going for broke when the offense was doing just fine
    Ninkovich in the neutral zone
    Molden 12th man on the field
    Wes Welkers's non-catch/Brady's iffy delivery

    Also, if the Pats land on any of those fumbles by the Giants, this game is a different story. 

    I can appreciate that the Giants won the game, they did what they had to do and it was a close, hard-fought game.  I never expected the Pats to be in the SB and a win for me would've been gravy.  Let's face it, this was a flawed team and they still got there.  It's hard to be angry after you get over the disappointment.     
     
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    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    it is hard to believe that a bill belichick coached team, after two weeks of preparation, would make so many silly mistakes....with all those mistakes, they still had a chance to put the game away with 4 minutes left, but couldnt....and thats ultimately where the game was lost
     
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    Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on

    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on:
    In Response to Re: Can we be Honest and Say who the Lost Ultimately Falls on : Champ, you don't seriously believe that their running game won the Super Bowl for the Giants?  It was Eli's 40 passes, 75% completion rate, and 296 yards that kept their offense moving.  And the Giants' success in the passing game wasn't because the Pats' defense was focusing on their running game. In fact, the Pats defended the run pretty well given that they had to keep their safeties back most of the game to prevent even bigger gains in the passing game.  The Giants live or die with the pass nearly as much as the Pats do. They, however, have a better defense than the Pats do, their receivers are more difficult to defend (especially with Gronk hurt), and they also played much better on special teams Sunday than the Pats did.  Running 8 more times and passing one less time was not the reason for the game's outcome.
    Posted by prolate0spheroid


    Like I've always said, as well as almost every succesful offensive coach in NFL history.....The run game opens up the pass.

    Look at the play by play from the 3rt qtr to the 4rth. The Giants are in run formation most of the game. They weren't getting chunks of yards(like BJGE was) but they committed to it and they threw out of the same run formations.

    It is no coincidence we had trouble slowing there passing game late in the 4rth qtr as they had juts put together a string of 5 minute drives(ending in punts or fgs) while we were going 3 and out.

    And yes if we had mixed in more running we would have maintained possession longer, kept our defense off the field and given the Giants much less time to win the game.

    Look at the play by play in the 3rd and 4rth qtr. Giants live in run formation despit Eli throwing for 5000 yards this year. Smart coaching right there.

    When did you start believing that 42 passes to 17 runs is an effective NFL offense? With numbers like that we have put up 14,20 and 17 points against this Giants team.

    You must think there 28th ranked defense is REALLY good to stop our 35 ppg offense 3x in a row.
     
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