Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!

    In Response to Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!:
    In Response to Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here! : Agreed, if the Pat's had just moved the chains after Brady's interception, never mind score, they would have left no time for the Giant's to do anything. Game over... But unlike the first three Super Bowls the offense was impotent in the clutch... thus Tom's recent comments about the 4 minute offense.
    Posted by wozzy


    Unlike in the 3 winning superbowls the D left the O more than 57 and 35 seconds before they blew the lead.  They also got off the field in less than 30 minutes, allowing the O opportunities to score.  He11 they actually helped by scoring points.  Imagine that!
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from vertigho. Show vertigho's posts

    Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!

    Did you just say that this team's success is "All about Brady."...?

    That's hardly fair to Tom himself, and simply not true. 

    The defense needs to do their job, which they have struggled to do from time to time recently. Furthermore, by making that statement you're completely removing responsibility from the defense. That isn't fair for a number of reasons. One, you're giving them a free pass, which isn't right. Secondly, by relieving them of responsibility, you're putting yourself in a tough position to praise them when they come through.

    The success of this team, much like any other team, depends heavily on the play of the quarterback -- I agree with that, and that's a prime reason that New England has been so successful over the past decade... Tom Brady is the best QB in the league. But the success of the team isn't entirely dependent on him as you would like to believe.
     
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    Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!

    In Response to Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!:
    Lol!  There is a guy on 98.5 right now saying "Brady picks his WRs" LOL!! Told ya! This isn't something only I believe. WIDELY suggested throughout this fanbase.
    Posted by Dusty Bottoms


    2 days ago, Brady said he has no influence and doesn't pick his receivers.  I think I'll believe that guy.  You know, the one who actually plays for the team.
    What kind of dope searches for any reason in the world to blame Brady?
    I don't know any, not even non-Pats fans.
     
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    Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!

    In Response to Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!:
    In Response to Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here! : Err, the starters weren't in there for long. We won't be seeing teams score under 10 each in this league. Stop it. Enough. THe board has had enough. You lost. Get over it. Brady must be better. 
    Posted by Dusty Bottoms


    Who said anything about starters.  The O scored 7 and the D gave up 6...That's normally how you win, by out scoring your opponent. Right?  That takes both O and D.
    Sorry, you lost months and months ago.  Probably about the time of your 3rd banning.   Only you and Rusties 1 thru 11 agree with you.
     
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    Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!

    In Response to Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!:
    In Response to Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here! : Yes. People can shove their yardage stats where the sun don't shine. If the Pats score just one lousy field goal in the second half after their opening TD drive, the D would have held in the red zone instead of gifting the Giants their final TD.
    Posted by digger0862



    Yeah, well, yards lost us the Lombardi trophy, so.... enjoy shoving them.

    Hopefully BB has solved the yards problem with his huge defensive investment.

    As far as one more FG... how about the D allowing scores on only 2 of 4 2nd half Giants possessions instead of 3 of 4? That would have done the same thing.
     
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    Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!

    In Response to Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!:
    Lol!  There is a guy on 98.5 right now saying "Brady picks his WRs" LOL!! Told ya!
    Posted by Dusty Bottoms



    Well that settles it.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!

    In Response to Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!:
    In Response to Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here! : It's kind of funny that we keep talking about this...kind of makes you wonder just how good a team we really are/were. Think about it for a second - the offense was flawed and the defense was ranked about as low as you can get. I think Belichick and Brady were the real difference makers in last season. I thought for the most part they both were on top of there games. I worry about a team like Houston getting their QB back and peaking at the right time...I also worry about Brady taking a nasty shot before this offensive line comes together.
    Posted by mthurl


    Mthurl, I can honestly say I have a hard time arguing with you about this, on threads not pertaining to this subject I find you to be one of the funniest, most logical poster here. 

    I want to stress that I think this defense was put together with duct tape and stick em. BB held players out and played this to win in the playoff's, and mostly I think he ran that 2/4/5 nickel because he was holding the DT's for the playoff's, Warren retires and comes back, good cap use?

    But they played above themselves in the playoff's, the offense came up short. The Giant's were a great team and made next to no mistakes.

     
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    Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!

    In Response to Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!:
    I really try to keep things civil. I think most do other then Babe and Rusty, and a few trolls who only try and illicit reactions. I agree with your post. I don't blame Brady in the slightest and I think BB has his hands full rebuilding a defense that lost its core 4 years ago, and has battled quite a few under achievers and injuries in the secondary. I blame lazy offensive play calling that relies too much on Tom Brady and his amazing ability, and not enough on keeping the opposing defense's off balance. I don't think that is an absurd notion.
    Posted by TrueChamp



    "I blame lazy offensive play calling that relies too much on Tom Brady and his amazing ability, and not enough on keeping the opposing defense's off balance."

    i agree with you here. however i would substitute "not good" for the word "lazy"
    particularly in the 2nd half where the game was lost with the offensive play calling
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!

    In Response to Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!:
    In Response to Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here! : It's kind of funny that we keep talking about this...kind of makes you wonder just how good a team we really are/were. Think about it for a second - the offense was flawed and the defense was ranked about as low as you can get. I think Belichick and Brady were the real difference makers in last season. I thought for the most part they both were on top of there games. I worry about a team like Houston getting their QB back and peaking at the right time...I also worry about Brady taking a nasty shot before this offensive line comes together.
    Posted by mthurl


    Dunno if the offense is so much flawed as incomplete.  Face it, the spread offense and pass happy play calling is good enough to win most regular season games - even with a below average defense. In addition, the Patriots kryptonite is an opposing team who can harrass Brady just enough - and cover at the same time (aka, the Giants).
     
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    Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!

    I don't understand the either/or mentality of the argument.  NEITHER offense nor defense did enough to get the win.  If the offense puts up another 7, we win.  If the defense prevents another 7, we win.  CHOOSING TO BE INDRODUCED AS A TEAM is symbolic of this very important concept.  We, as fans, need to be in the same mindset as the team, simply THE TEAM didn't do enough to win.  This kind of blame game that keeps getting played here is like a bad divorce, it is ugly, stupid, and pointless, because it is NOT getting us a Lombardi this coming year.  Let's get past our personal feelings and move FORWARD.  Or are you NOT FAN ENOUGH?
     
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    Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!

    In Response to Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!:
    In Response to Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here! : Dunno if the offense is so much flawed as incomplete.  Face it, the spread offense and pass happy play calling is good enough to win most regular season games - even with a below average defense. In addition, the Patriots kryptonite is an opposing team who can harrass Brady just enough - and cover at the same time (aka, the Giants).
    Posted by anonymis

    You know what really kills me? We had that game won. During that whole game I'm thinking, I can't believe we're in this game and actually leading. I mean so many things were going wrong...timely penalties, time of possession, turn overs...and yet it was one dropped pass from a Lombardi trophy.

    I DO think that we were a flawed team on both sides of the ball and yeah when you can cover and hit Brady it means trouble (truthfully they didn't cover us anywhere near as good as Baltimore did, they just rushed much better).

    Hopefully things will be better this year (sounds funny considering that we made it all the way to the Super Bowl).
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!

    In Response to Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!:
    In Response to Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here! : Mthurl, I can honestly say I have a hard time arguing with you about this, on threads not pertaining to this subject I find you to be one of the funniest, most logical poster here.  I want to stress that I think this defense was put together with duct tape and stick em. BB held players out and played this to win in the playoff's, and mostly I think he ran that 2/4/5 nickel because he was holding the DT's for the playoff's, Warren retires and comes back, good cap use? But they played above themselves in the playoff's, the offense came up short. The Giant's were a great team and made next to no mistakes.
    Posted by wozzy


    I'll tell you what, if the young runners this year show they have talent and deserve the ball and we decide we are going to be unbalanced and predictable, I'll change my mind. I will blame the play calling. If these guys are running well and being consistent, productive, difference makers - then I will definitely question lining up in the spread on 3rd and 1's. I will question passing on first down from the 5 yard line (although I think that is somewhat of a less predictable move than running). 

    We'll see how it goes, I'm really looking forward to seeing what these young backs can do. They may be able to make a difference...or they may fall on their face. The good thing is, defenses won't be gearing up to stop them, which is huge.  
     
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    Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!

    In Response to Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!:
    Cue Hurlie's built in ready made Brady excuse for 2012: The O Line. Priceless.  It's always someone else or some other position but Brady. 
    Posted by Dusty Bottoms


    Now this is funny stuff!!

    We lose our starting left tackle, our right tackle is being played by a rookie (that by all reports has him being embarrassed daily in pass rush drills), our pro bowl guard is coming off acl surgery, and our left guard may retire...yet all this is an excuse for a QB that has brought this team to heights it has never even dreamed of?

    So if we start the season like this and he is running for his life, it's his fault? My word! You don't even care what you write anymore, do you? What happened? You're not even....I don't know...trying.
     
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    Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!

    In Response to Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!:
    In Response to Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here! : I would rather have the argument in one thread... instead of every thread and so far people here are having a good back and forth. Maybe we can it get it all out here maybe not but your not adding anything.
    Posted by csylvia79


    Not saying anything???? Everyone here and myself have said our views before ad infinitum. But by all menas lets all say it again... and again... Brilliant guys...

    OK... here it is... like it or not:

    1. the offense choked on too many key plays, starting with Brady's egg on the very first play and ending with the almost good throw and almost good catch.

    2. the D choked on too many plays, especially during the second half and especially during the game winning drive.

    3. Mankins, the best O lineman on the team and a consumate all pro was playing with injuries that would have sidelined most all pros let alone professional football players. Gronk, the best TE in the league was all but totally ineffective as he was playing with a critical injury. The effect to the O was perhaps akin to if JPP and Justin Tuck were trying to play with those injuries. Think that would have had an effect on the NY D?

    SO it was a team loss. Plenty of blame to go around. Debating this further is just obsessive and NOTHING new is being said here. If you all want to continue in this vein go right ahead and waste your time. Do not forget to repeat what you say in a post at least 5 more times in subsequent posts just in case no one heard you.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from ChasaB. Show ChasaB's posts

    Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!

    Just going to toss this out there, Its not possible to have a civil debate while there are trolls present.

    people will say tom brady is bad for the team despite being one of the best QB's currently in the league.

    People will say BB is a terrible coach, despite being one of the best coaches in the league.

    people will say the patriots suck, despite making it to the superbowl last year.

    The only thing that matters are facts. the pats are the best team in the AFC east, brady is a top 3 QB, and the pats are a favorite to make it to the superbowl.

    there is nothing to debate.
     
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    Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!

    In response to "Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!":
    Just going to toss this out there, Its not possible to have a civil debate while there are trolls present. people will say tom brady is bad for the team despite being one of the best QB's currently in the league. People will say BB is a terrible coach, despite being one of the best coaches in the league. people will say the patriots suck, despite making it to the superbowl last year. The only thing that matters are facts. the pats are the best team in the AFC east, brady is a top 3 QB, and the pats are a favorite to make it to the superbowl. there is nothing to debate. Posted by ChasaB
    Totally agree! The pats are still great and I think this year They are going to be much better. My only worry is having a healthy O-line with deapth for the start of the season. About the trolls... I always hope we can keep the fight in a few threads not every one.
     
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    Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!

    In Response to Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!:
    Just going to toss this out there, Its not possible to have a civil debate while there are trolls present. people will say tom brady is bad for the team despite being one of the best QB's currently in the league. People will say BB is a terrible coach, despite being one of the best coaches in the league. people will say the patriots suck, despite making it to the superbowl last year. The only thing that matters are facts. the pats are the best team in the AFC east, brady is a top 3 QB, and the pats are a favorite to make it to the superbowl. there is nothing to debate.
    Posted by ChasaB


    It's kind of funny, but I find that most of the fighting/bickering is between Pat's fans more than anything. The trolls come in and say something ridiculous once in a while, but this raging debate of offense vs. defense is more fan related in my opinion.
     
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    Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!

    In Response to Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!:
    In Response to Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here! : It's kind of funny, but I find that most of the fighting/bickering is between Pat's fans more than anything. The trolls come in and say something ridiculous once in a while, but this raging debate of offense vs. defense is more fan related in my opinion.
    Posted by mthurl


    I think he considers some of the more polarized Pat fans trolls.  But I do agree with you that most of the fighting comes from fans.  I choose to ignore most trolls unless they say something really not factual.

    I miss the days when Rusty wasn't so bitter and was more of a troll fighter... there were some really good reading threads.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from ChasaB. Show ChasaB's posts

    Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!

    In Response to Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!:
    In response to "Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!": Totally agree! The pats are still great and I think this year They are going to be much better. My only worry is having a healthy O-line with deapth for the start of the season. About the trolls... I always hope we can keep the fight in a few threads not every one.
    Posted by csylvia79


    I think once we see the actual O-line we will get a better feel for where its at. right now we have only seen it with 60% of the regular starters. I'm confident BB will have a solid unit ready to go for week 1.

    Now if we can fix those PIs things will be looking wicked bright.
     
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    Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!

    In response to "Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!":
    In Response to Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here! : I think once we see the actual O-line we will get a better feel for where its at. right now we have only seen it with 60% of the regular starters. I'm confident BB will have a solid unit ready to go for week 1. Now if we can fix those PIs things will be looking wicked bright. Posted by ChasaB
    They just need to have a turn your head for the ball drill
     
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    Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!

    In Response to Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!:
    I don't understand the either/or mentality of the argument.  NEITHER offense nor defense did enough to get the win.  If the offense puts up another 7, we win.  If the defense prevents another 7, we win.  CHOOSING TO BE INDRODUCED AS A TEAM is symbolic of this very important concept.  We, as fans, need to be in the same mindset as the team, simply THE TEAM didn't do enough to win.  This kind of blame game that keeps getting played here is like a bad divorce, it is ugly, stupid, and pointless, because it is NOT getting us a Lombardi this coming year.  Let's get past our personal feelings and move FORWARD.  Or are you NOT FAN ENOUGH?
    Posted by TroyBrown80


    I think most of us realize both sides of the ball could have done more to win. If we scored another td we could have won by scoring 24. If we had prevented that last td we would have won by holding them to 13 points (offensively).

    Imagine if we could have kept the ball away from them a little longer in the 2nd half. Most of us would be talking about the amazing job BB did with a glued up secondary, holding a very good offense to 13 points in the SB....Maybe they would have put another one of his defensive schemes in the HOF.
     
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    Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!

    In Response to Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!:
    In Response to Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here! : I think most of us realize both sides of the ball could have done more to win. If we scored another td we could have won by scoring 24. If we had prevented that last td we would have won by holding them to 13 points (offensively). Imagine if we could have kept the ball away from them a little longer in the 2nd half. Most of us would be talking about the amazing job BB did with a glued up secondary, holding a very good offense to 13 points in the SB....Maybe they would have put another one of his defensive schemes in the HOF.
    Posted by wozzy


    I have to add that it didn't look like there was any thought given in the offensive game plan that Gronk would be a shaddow of himself. It looked like they came to conclusion he wasn't going to be effective in the first quarter and had no backup plan.
     
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    Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!

    In response to "Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!":
    In Response to Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here! : I think most of us realize both sides of the ball could have done more to win. If we scored another td we could have won by scoring 24. If we had prevented that last td we would have won by holding them to 13 points (offensively). Imagine if we could have kept the ball away from them a little longer in the 2nd half. Most of us would be talking about the amazing job BB did with a glued up secondary, holding a very good offense to 13 points in the SB....Maybe they would have put another one of his defensive schemes in the HOF. Posted by wozzy
    That's how I see it too. They were outplayed in special teams too. It was that close though, one more first down probably would have won that game.
     
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    Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!

    In Response to Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!:
    Just going to toss this out there, Its not possible to have a civil debate while there are trolls present. people will say tom brady is bad for the team despite being one of the best QB's currently in the league. People will say BB is a terrible coach, despite being one of the best coaches in the league. people will say the patriots suck, despite making it to the superbowl last year. The only thing that matters are facts. the pats are the best team in the AFC east, brady is a top 3 QB, and the pats are a favorite to make it to the superbowl. there is nothing to debate.
    Posted by ChasaB


    I don't recall seeing a single post that has said any of that stuff. I've only seen it used as a defense by certain people trying to dump the whole thing on the defense.
     
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    Re: Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!

    In Response to Can we have a civil debate to end all this bickering in ever thread here!:
    I just wanted to post this because I read these forums all the time. As a paramedic a sit at different posting around the county I work in, so I have a lot of phone surfing time.  I read and check this site way more than should but hey it like a personal addiction. Lately this message board has become splashed with the same types of threads constantly and my hope is if we can keep it contained in one big thread maybe some of the more interesting  new will start popping back up. My goal is to start an interesting discussion from my POV that will be as civil as possible. Maybe I'M dreaming but I figure 99% of us are all adults most of us have been Pats fan for 20+ years. There over 10 threads where this topic is raging on and I would like to see if we can find some areas where there is some agreement between us all.  Now this is my personal view, disagree all you want.   There is so much discourse is about who is to blame on the last superbowl.  I see a ton of half-truths going around with the people who want to put all the blame all on Brady and the offense.  I have been looking at quite a few superbowl play by plays off of Si/cnn.com.  One thing I have to say is our defense did not show up in any meaningful way to help the team win the game. If I must I will bring up some examples but I could not find one game where the winning teams defense did not get one turnover or three and out the whole game.  Now I only looked  from 1985 forward so maybe someone can fine one some where. The offense did not play the best game. Brady did make two big errors that could have made this game easier to win.  The offensive line at times was horrible, the WRS made some drops, and Brady was not as pin point accurate as he can be. The question is did they deliver enough to win the game. my opinion is they were so/so but I have to give the edge to yes. Because at the end of the day Pats still lead for a good portion of the game and it did come down to one drive to beat them. Looking at the defense in the same light they were so/so but they didn't do anything that gave the Pats a real chance to win. Even on none scoring drives they allowed the Giants to move the ball and eat up a ton of time. Then in the second half they couldn't make a play.  Now did the the Offense help by the D-out by running down the clock?  No they didn't for various reasons. Play-calling and poor execution did that train in.   Although, I'm so tired of the excuse that it was because the D was tired.  I played football for from seven years old  throughout college and then in the army intramural leagues so I have some personnel experience. I wasn't all world skill or size wise but I loved the game. From high-school on I  have only played defense and was in some battles.  Never once did I think we lost because my team was tired or the offense didn't score enough. That the offense didn't get us enough of a break off the field.  These guys train all year round to play. If they can't play at a high level throughout a football game they aren't Pros.  Those that want to point out the O- didn't score much you realise our first superbowl the offense score one touchdown and two field goals. The D got three turn overs, one being a pick six. Maybe its because I played mostly defense i'm biased but our goal was to stop the other team and get the ball back.  If the D can't show up for a few drives to make some big plays when the team needs it, I believe most teams are going to lose. My biggest grip was the play calling. I think the safety was a direct result of OB getting too cute early in the game.  Those that want to totally blame Brady, where was he going to throw that ball and not risk giving up six?   Now the interception was a broken play and is all on Brady for getting too risky, but if the same situation wouldn't you want most QB's to try and get it out there? So without drawing this out more the team failed... I if I had to put one area that has the biggest blame it would have to be the coaching on both side of the ball. I don't think the Pats were risky enough on defense to force the giants into errors... Those of you that played.... didn't you at least on one third and long a game do an all out blitz to give the QB no time to throw? I don't remember it even looking like the Pats were trying to be sellout aggressive at any point.  The offensive play calling needed an overhaul be it the personnel on the field or just a horrible coordinator but something had to give. I think most of us could see what is going to happen  almost every play....so can the other team.  Now really good teams can punch you in the mouth even when you know it coming.  The pats have that in the passing game but not in the running game. The is were better coaching was needed the most. They didn't do much at all to catch the other team off guard. So in the end after all my blabbing I think the Pats lost as a team but the biggest failure has to be at the hands of the coaching staff that really didn't do those extra things to put the team in position to win outside of our skill areas. I'm sorry for grammatical error and spelling error I'm actaul tied from typing this with my thumbs on the phone. Oh and I don't hate or dislike anyone on this board who is a Pats fan. 
    Posted by csylvia79


         Thanks for the interesting post. My take on the game is that not having Gronk at 100% crippled the offense. He was Brady's most lethal weapon last year. Gronk's inability to run and cut allowed the G-men to single cover him with a LB or a safety, and focus their efforts on Hernandez and Welker, over the middle. It also allowed their safeties to cheat up towards the line of scrimmage, making it harder for the Pats to run the ball.

         With a healthy Gronk, the 2011 Pats were on equal footing with the Giants. Without him, the Giants were the better overall team. The Pats needed a break or two to win. Unfortunately, the ball didn't bounce their way. Nonetheless, I felt a lot better the SB 46 loss than I did about the SB 42 heartbreaker. The Pats gave it their all in SB 46, but just came up a tad short.  
     
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