Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    Never - TP - I am just unwilling to engage in a one sided interrogation with you.  If you wish to discuss you must be willing to give answers if you expect to receive them. 

    As far as babe's comments are concerned, he's just unwilling to see my side which is his fandom coming out. 

    If Wayne is a star receiver (31st pick) then Chad Jackson is comparable (36th)
    If Clark is a star receiver/TE (24th pick) then so are Daniel Graham (21st) and Ben Watson (32nd). 
     
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    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?:
    [QUOTE]Never - TP - I am just unwilling to engage in a one sided interrogation with you.  If you wish to discuss you must be willing to give answers if you expect to receive them.  As far as babe's comments are concerned, he's just unwilling to see my side which is his fandom coming out.  If Wayne is a star receiver (31st pick) then Chad Jackson is comparable (36th) If Clark is a star receiver/TE (24th pick) then so are Daniel Graham (21st) and Ben Watson (32nd). 
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]

    This reasoning is an example of your lack of reasoning on all fronts. Draft order doesn't make a player a star. Playing great does.

    My fandom didn't make Brady's stats better, his SB wins and SBMVPs greater or his W/L record better.

    I'm afraid your credibility is entirely shot to hell at this point UD6.
     
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    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    Babe - I've been asking exactly that question for quite some time.  No one would answer.  Ok, since no one else would answer the question, we will go with great play on the field determining greatness as opposed to draft selection. 

    Did you know that in 8 years of play, Dallas Clark has been to only one probowl.  So much for greatness, huh? 

    What I can't figure is that with as great a qb as Brady is, why'd they keep all these substandard players around him for so long?   

    So, since 07, Brady has APPARENTLY had significantly better talent around him than before:  Moss, Welker, Stallworth, Watson (whether or not you agree), Morris, Faulk, Woodhead, Green-Ellis, Hernandez, Gronkowski, Crumpler, and Edelman who has converted very well.  Hopefully no one is disputing this. 

    So, here's what I don't understand.  The common statement here is that Brady is better because he won superbowls with less talented skill players than Manning.  But since 07, Brady has had significantly better skill players than his superbowl winning days and, it could be argued, better skill players than Manning, yet in 3 years since he's accomplished nothing of value.  

    If the argument is that Brady is better because he did more (won SB's) with less (marginal skill players) than Manning, then the logic would be that Brady would do even more (win more SB's) with more (better skill players).  He hasn't. 

    If the logic fails, then the premise is flawed.  So, what is the difference.  This is it.  Brady was simply asked to be a game manager while the team had a dominating defense and a kicker who never missed when it mattered most.  He managed superbly and the skill players around him were perfect for the system - and better than the credit they are given.  

    With the team on his shoulders, like Manning and the talent around him better than Manning's, Brady has failed to produce.  Manning's better.
     
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    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?:
    [QUOTE]What does draft status have to do with being a star receiver? Wes Welker - undrafted = star receiver. I dont care where Wayne was drafted he has been a star receiver for a while now. I mean what are you trying to say Wayne and Clark *suck and are not star players at their positions?
    Posted by MVPkilla4life[/QUOTE]

    Tas - Like I noted with Babe, the board is finally speaking up.  Lets not allow the board to argue great players as determined simply by their draft selection. 

    Texas Patty was too afraid to answer this question.  Go figure.  It was an easy one. 
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?:
    [QUOTE]Never - TP - I am just unwilling to engage in a one sided interrogation with you.  If you wish to discuss you must be willing to give answers if you expect to receive them.  As far as babe's comments are concerned, he's just unwilling to see my side which is his fandom coming out.  If Wayne is a star receiver (31st pick) then Chad Jackson is comparable (36th) If Clark is a star receiver/TE (24th pick) then so are Daniel Graham (21st) and Ben Watson (32nd). 
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]

         Whatever you say, Dog(gggg)...LOL!!!

         This is yet another example of why you have zero credibility on this forum, and why no one should take you seriously. 
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end? :      Whatever you say, Dog(gggg)...LOL!!!      This is yet another example of why you have zero credibility on this forum, and why no one should take you seriously. 
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]

    This must just be a simple copy and paste response for you.  Broken record.  Who listens to a broken record?
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?:
    [QUOTE]Babe - I've been asking exactly that question for quite some time.  No one would answer.  Ok, since no one else would answer the question, we will go with great play on the field determining greatness as opposed to draft selection.  Did you know that in 8 years of play, Dallas Clark has been to only one probowl.  So much for greatness, huh?  What I can't figure is that with as great a qb as Brady is, why'd they keep all these substandard players around him for so long?    So, since 07, Brady has APPARENTLY had significantly better talent around him than before:  Moss, Welker, Stallworth, Watson (whether or not you agree), Morris, Faulk, Woodhead, Green-Ellis, Hernandez, Gronkowski, Crumpler, and Edelman who has converted very well.  Hopefully no one is disputing this.  So, here's what I don't understand.  The common statement here is that Brady is better because he won superbowls with less talented skill players than Manning.  But since 07, Brady has had significantly better skill players than his superbowl winning days and, it could be argued, better skill players than Manning, yet in 3 years since he's accomplished nothing of value.   If the argument is that Brady is better because he did more (won SB's) with less (marginal skill players) than Manning, then the logic would be that Brady would do even more (win more SB's) with more (better skill players).  He hasn't.  If the logic fails, then the premise is flawed.  So, what is the difference.  This is it.  Brady was simply asked to be a game manager while the team had a dominating defense and a kicker who never missed when it mattered most.  He managed superbly and the skill players around him were perfect for the system - and better than the credit they are given.   With the team on his shoulders, like Manning and the talent around him better than Manning's, Brady has failed to produce.  Manning's better.
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]

    And how may pro-bowls have Pats TE been in? As usual you use pro-bowls to measure quality. Have you considered if other pro-bowl players are getting the numbers at the expense of a guy like Clark he may not make as many pro-bowls but is still a great player?

    Brady has not produced despite having some better offensive weapons because of himself not playing as well as he could have at times and the defense failing at inopportune times, plus a dash of bad luck.

    Nothing changes the facts that Brady has better stats, more SBs and SBMVPs and a better W/L record. And Manning only has MVP/pro-bowl berths to go against all that. Manning loses, by a significant margin.

     
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    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end? : This must just be a simple copy and paste response for you.  Broken record.  Who listens to a broken record?
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]

         With all your refusals to answer simple questions, misrepresentations, misdirections, and flat out lies over the years...what else can be said, other than to point out further examples of why you should not be taken seriously? If you think that no one agrees or is listening, than does it bother you so?

         I'll tell you what's a broken record...reading your whines and gibberish , as you defend the Picasso of choke artists...day after day.    
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    But Babe - he doesn't have better stats when it supposedly matters - the postseason.  Here comes the outdoors argument. 

    Babe - you can't use defense and bad luck excuses for brady's postseason losses with better talent - not if, you disregard my proof of the colts poor playoff defense and poor kicking in the clutch, as you did.  Heck - I didn't even mention the coaching failure at the end of last year's playoff game vs. the jets when Manning put with less than 1 minute to go only to have the colts coach call time out with 29 seconds left giving the jets the chance at one more play that put them in good field goal range. 

    The fact, however, that you are using these things validates mine and proves by leaps and bounds that Manning is tops.  Thanks. 

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from dastardly. Show dastardly's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?:
    [QUOTE]So, since 07, Brady has APPARENTLY had significantly better talent around him than before:  Moss, Welker, Stallworth, Watson (whether or not you agree), Morris, Faulk, Woodhead, Green-Ellis, Hernandez, Gronkowski, Crumpler, and Edelman who has converted very well.  

    Brady was simply asked to be a game manager while the team had a dominating defense and a kicker who never missed when it mattered most.  He managed superbly and the skill players around him were perfect for the system - and better than the credit they are given.   With the team on his shoulders, like Manning and the talent around him better than Manning's, Brady has failed to produce.  Manning's better.
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]

    Stallworth was here for 1 year.  Hernandez and Gronkowski are rookies.  You consider Morris, BJGE, Watson and Edelman talented?!?  Welker and Woodhead and to some extent Crumpler ARE good – funny how both names weren’t exactly synonymous with talent until they came NE.  I wonder why the sudden improvement - oh yes…must be that do-it-all NE defense.   Since 2007, the only legitimate talent Brady consistently had to work with was Moss, but you make it sound as if Brady had all this “talent” around him for about the same number of consecutive years Manning had with Wayne, Harrison, Clark, Addai, and a superb OL.  Great job picking and choosing players that fits your argument though.

     
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    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    Since you brought up the Jets/Colts PO game, why did the Colts only manage 16 points in that game?  Shouldn't they have score much more against the Jets given Manning supposed unquestionable talents?  Taking a page out of your favorite arguments, I would've blamed the Colts defense, after all, it's a team effort right?  The problem is...they only allowed 17 points and was actually responsible for keeping the game close.
     
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    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?:
    [QUOTE]But Babe - he doesn't have better stats when it supposedly matters - the postseason.  Here comes the outdoors argument.  Babe - you can't use defense and bad luck excuses for brady's postseason losses with better talent - not if, you disregard my proof of the colts poor playoff defense and poor kicking in the clutch, as you did.  Heck - I didn't even mention the coaching failure at the end of last year's playoff game vs. the jets when Manning put with less than 1 minute to go only to have the colts coach call time out with 29 seconds left giving the jets the chance at one more play that put them in good field goal range.  The fact, however, that you are using these things validates mine and proves by leaps and bounds that Manning is tops.  Thanks. 
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]

    You're just a cake and eat it too type of guy apparently.

    You try to discount Brady's regular season stats by saying Manning has better post season stats, and they are what count, but your whole argument that Manning is better is based on MVPs, which are won on the regular season.

    You can't have it both ways.

    And yes, Manning's huge advantage of playing so many games in domes while Brady is forced to play playoff games outdoors in December or January is a huge statistical advantage for Manning. Tell me it isn't.
     
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    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end? : Stallworth was here for 1 year.   Hernandez and Gronkowski are rookies.   You consider Morris, BJGE, Watson and Edelman talented?!?   Welker and Woodhead and to some extent Crumpler ARE good – funny how both names weren’t exactly synonymous with talent until they came NE.   I wonder why the sudden improvement - oh yes…must be that do-it-all NE defense.    Since 2007, the only legitimate talent Brady consistently had to work with was Moss, but you make it sound as if Brady had all this “talent” around him for about the same number of consecutive years Manning had with Wayne, Harrison, Clark, Addai, and a superb OL.   Great job picking and choosing players that fits your argument though.
    Posted by dastardly[/QUOTE]
    Dast, here's the way I see it.  If Belichick didn't think the players were capable, then he wouldn't have them around, e.g. Caldwell.  Stallworth is a talent.

    Hernandez and Gronkowski may be rookies, but Gronkowski tied for the NFL lead for TD's among TE's.  Hernandez was in the top 10.  Both were spectacular in different ways.  If one or the other wasn't there, more TD's and receptions and yards would be expected from the one left.  They were both fantastic, rookie or not. 

    Last year Green Ellis ran for 1000 yds while sharing duties and tied for 2nd in the league among RB's for rushing TDs

    Edelman was fantastic in relief of Welker in 09, and many here were singing his praises as the next welker - until Woodhead came along.  

    As for the talent before a team thing:  Everyone was surprised the colts took Edgerrin James instead of Ricky Williams.  No one thought anything of Brandon Stokely in Baltimore.  6th rd Pierre Garcon? 4th rd Austin Collie?  UDFA's Marcus Pollard and Dominic Rhodes?  Jacob Tamme?  Maybe just maybe the QB's make the receivers better.  This includes Brady and Manning.  Draft status does not matter.  

    I could go on, but after you listed Welker as only good its pointless.  I believe he's had more receptions than any receiver in the last 4 yrs. 

    So I'll ask you - did Brady have more skilled talent around him from 01-05 or 07-10?
     
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    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?:
    [QUOTE]Since you brought up the Jets/Colts PO game, why did the Colts only manage 16 points in that game?  Shouldn't they have score much more against the Jets given Manning supposed unquestionable talents?  Taking a page out of your favorite arguments, I would've blamed the Colts defense, after all, it's a team effort right?  The problem is...they only allowed 17 points and was actually responsible for keeping the game close.
    Posted by dastardly[/QUOTE]

    Dast - maybe you didn't know, but the Jets have a good D.  They won the time of possession game.  the colts had a poor offensive line and injuries to all of their skill players.

    The fact is Manning put the team up with less than 1 minute to play and ST, D, and Coaching mistakes couldn't hold it. 
     
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    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end? : You're just a cake and eat it too type of guy apparently. You try to discount Brady's regular season stats by saying Manning has better post season stats, and they are what count, but your whole argument that Manning is better is based on MVPs, which are won on the regular season. You can't have it both ways. And yes, Manning's huge advantage of playing so many games in domes while Brady is forced to play playoff games outdoors in December or January is a huge statistical advantage for Manning. Tell me it isn't.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    Not really, having been on this board for a number of years, its been beaten into my head that the regular season doesn't matter.  To have a Pats fan do an about face on this both surprising and not so surprising given the recent postseason failures.  If you are going to use the Reg Season as your hammer, then I'll go back to Manning's 4 MVP's vs. Brady's 2, stats be damned.  Besides, the stat difference is miniscule at best.  If Brady is better, why doesn't he have Manning's MVPs?  Why has he been chosen 1st or 2nd team all pro only 3 times to Manning's 8?  Surely stats had something to do with these selections. 

    Brady postseason games in decent weather:

    01 - Pitt - 50 degrees - ptly sunny - wind 16 mph
    01 - STL - dome
    03 - IND - 32 degrees - occassional snow - wind 2 mph
    03 - CAR - dome
    04 - IND - 25 degrees - snow - wind 7 mph
    04 - PHI - 59 degrees - clear - wind 12 mph
    05 - DEN - 54 degrees - ptly cloudy - wind 3 mph
    06 - NYJ - 60 degrees - sunny - wind 8 mph
    06 - SDC - 53 degrees - clear - wind 6 mph
    06 - IND - dome
    07 - JAX - 37 degrees - cloudy - wind 5 mph
    07 - NYG - dome
    10 - NYJ - 30 degrees -  clear - wind 14 mph

    13 of his 19 games were not in terrible weather.  That does not create a huge statistical difference.  
     
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    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?:
    [QUOTE]So I'll ask you - did Brady have more skilled talent around him from 01-05 or 07-10?
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]

    I’m glad you asked this question.   

    Sorry but I can't accept your ridiculous inclusion of Edelman as a talent.  At least not yet.  Had I not been a Pats fan I wouldn’t even know this ex-QB transformed-WR, let alone a HOF-caliber receiver which you're implying.  He’s not on any top 20 list for any category.  Not one. 

    BJGE compiled those stats because he was their ONLY rusher.  This undrafted, former practice squad player barely made the top-20 in any rushing category.  He’s decent sure, but not in the same league as Edgerrin James or Addai.   I have a feeling you’re already aware of this, you’re just trying to add as many names you can to your list of “great” players to sound like you know what you’re talking about.

    And I’ll pretend I didn’t read your assertions about Watson and Reche Caldwell as being “weapons” Brady could’ve utilized. 

    Lets’ look at 2007-2010 on a year-to-year basis with the rest of the players. 

    2007 – Stallworth and Moss joined the Pats – and yes, both were already established stars when they joined.  You provide a great QB weapons he never had, he sets all sorts of records under the sun.  Take a look at the record books, you’ll see Brady’s name front and center.  Welker joined the team but has anyone heard of this guy pre-Pats?  You provide a decent WR a great QB he never had, he instantly becomes one of the best WRs in the league.   Missing: Gronkowski,  Hernandez, Woodhead. 

    2008 – Missing: Gronkowski,  Hernandez, Woodhead, and oh yeah…Brady

    2009 –Brady comes back from a nasty injury.  NO ONE was expecting anything spectacular from Brady that year.  Being able to even start the season was a miracle.  In the end, he finished with the 5th best yards passing and was named Comeback Player of the year which btw, he earned despite finishing the year with a broken finger and 3 fractured ribs. 

    Missing: Stallworth, Hernandez, Woodhead,  Gronkowski,  Hernandez.

    2010 – Subtract Moss.  You’d be a fool to think Welker will be back playing at 100% after he tore ACL and MCL only a few months earlier.  Was evidently not the same player he was the last few years.  So, no, I don’t consider Welker as a legitimate weapon for Brady this year.  

    So missing:  Moss, Welker.  

    Additions:  Gronkowski,  Hernandez, Woodhead.   These 3 are rookies.  They turned out to be productive rookies but you don’t really expect rookies to help take a team to the SB do you?  Does anyone here do?  I noticed that in efforts to support a lame and weak argument, you senselessly reach for something that’s simply not there.   If you bring this up 2 to 3 years down the road, you’d actually seem credible.  

    BTW, in 2010, with 3 promising (not considered great yet) rookies at his disposal, Brady earned MVP honors in addition to breaking some records along the way.  Manning had to rely on consistent play from steady veterans who he’s developed chemistry with for years, to win his MVPs.  You think Manning can take his team as far as Brady did last year with a bunch of rookies?  I seriously would like to know.

    Let’s recap.  We can exclude 2008.  Exclude 2009 since this is Brady’s rehab year and most of these aforementioned talents were not with the team.  Exclude 2010 unless you live in bizarro world where 1st year rookies become HOF-bound superstars are expected to play a pivotal role in winning it.  We’re left with 2007 the one year Brady truly had the supposed talent.

    2001-2005

    Now let’s look at 2001-2005.  I won’t even bother breaking this down by year.  Why?  Because unlike 2007-2010, Brady pretty much had the same personnel offensively throughout this period.  Let’s look at their “talent” during this period as a whole:

    RB: They had Antwain Smith.  Need I say more?  He couldn’t crack the top 20 in any offensive rushing category.  Corey Dillon joined in 2004 and was exceptional that year.  Unfortunately, that’s about it.

    WR: They had Brown, Branch, Givens, and Patten.  Good solid consistent players but definitely not in the same caliber as a Harrison or Wayne athletically.  None possess blazing speed but because Brady and this group spent a lot of time together, they’ve developed chemistry that almost negated the need for such speed.   Proof of the importance of developing chemistry was the season Branch was traded to Seattle.  Brady’s stats were not the usual in 2006.

    ---

    So, after considering what transpired in the 2007-10 timeframe a realistic and sensible rephrasing of your question becomes :   “Did Brady have more skilled talent around him from 01-05 or 07?

    My answer:  I would pick periods 01-05 as the period Brady had better talent if only because he had consistency.  A factor missing during the later years what with injuries and personnel turnover.

    In 01-05, he played with the same cast and have developed a good relationship with them on and off the field.  They might not be super athletes (a lot of people even labeled them midgets) they had enough talent that a great QB like Brady could squeeze the most of it.  Do you really believe Manning could do better with a cast composed of Smith, Brown, Branch, and Givens?  I know Brady could with Harrison, Wayne, and James.

    The 2007 team year surely had the potential to be greater.  You have to realize a lot of these players they brought in in 2007 have never previously played with Brady so 2007 can be considered as an adjustment year.  A really great adjustment year – further testament to Brady’s talents.

    And had the Pats kept the same personnel in 2008, 2009, and 2010 minus all the injuries, it’s conceivable that they win a couple more SBs, then we wouldn’t even have this discussion, and you wouldn’t be here failing miserably to convince us after 2000 or so of your posts that Manning is the better QB.

     
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    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end? : Dast - maybe you didn't know, but the Jets have a good D.  They won the time of possession game.  the colts had a poor offensive line and injuries to all of their skill players. The fact is Manning put the team up with less than 1 minute to play and ST, D, and Coaching mistakes couldn't hold it. 
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]

    They had an awesome D, I agree.  I also noticed Vinatieri scored 3 FGs on the game which basically means 3 missed opportunities to score TDs.  Had they converted just one into a TD, they would've won.  
     
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    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end? : Not really, having been on this board for a number of years, its been beaten into my head that the regular season doesn't matter.  To have a Pats fan do an about face on this both surprising and not so surprising given the recent postseason failures.  If you are going to use the Reg Season as your hammer, then I'll go back to Manning's 4 MVP's vs. Brady's 2, stats be damned.  Besides, the stat difference is miniscule at best.  If Brady is better, why doesn't he have Manning's MVPs?  Why has he been chosen 1st or 2nd team all pro only 3 times to Manning's 8?  Surely stats had something to do with these selections.  Brady postseason games in decent weather: 01 - Pitt - 50 degrees 01 - STL - dome 03 - IND - 32 degrees 03 - CAR - 81 degrees 04 - IND - 25 degrees 04 - PHI - 59 degrees 05 - DEN - 54 degrees 06 - NYJ - 60 degrees 06 - SDC - 53 degrees 06 - IND - dome 07 - JAX - 37 degrees 07 - NYG - dome 10 - NYJ - 30 degrees 13 of his 19 games were not in terrible weather.  That does not create a huge statistical difference.  
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]


    Well, if you insist.

    We can add playoff stats to our list if you like. But if we do we need to add playoff record, and Manning's 9-10 isn't going to stack up too well to Brady's 14-5, is it?

    And let's be honest, Manning's small lead in passer rating for the playoffs is bolstered mostly by his 102 rating in 7 games in the wild card round. pffft

    And while we're at it let's add Brady's 94.5 PR in the SB against Manning's 85.4 PR. I mean the SB is where it really counts, right? And don't forget Brady's 7/1 TD/INT ratio in the SB to Manning's 2/2. Oh, and Brady's PR is better in conference championships as well by 8 points. I guess Tom just plays better when more is on the line and Peyton gets worse when the going gets tougher.

    Can you name a Brady gaff as huge as Manning's pick six in the SB at crunch time? Nope.

    As far as the weather, temperature is only one consideration. There is wind and precipitation. And some of those you listed were in the 30s, hardly like the idyllic conditions of a dome.


    You have just got no juice in this argument UD6. Brady has been better in so many areas than Manning, it's not that close anymore.

    UD, arguing for Manning against Brady at this point....

    is like bringing a plastic fork to a gun fight.
     
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    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    There's the problem right there.   Comparing an outdoor QB to a dome QB.  Along with the piped in noise. 
     
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    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    Dast and Babe - I'll get to you when I have more time...

    But if I am to take Gary seriously, then there's no comparison.  Brady would have known his opponents defensive signals through 06, and that de-legitimizes (a word?) all of Brady's victories including the playoffs.  

    If I am to take Gary seriously, then we don't really have anything to discuss.  Do you guys think I should take Gary seriously?
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?:
    [QUOTE]There's the problem right there.   Comparing an outdoor QB to a dome QB.  Along with the piped in noise. 
    Posted by garytx[/QUOTE]

         Don't waste your time with this boorish blowhard. He refuses to admit or even take into account that Manning played the great majority of his games in a dome, or good weather. He refuses to admit or take into account that Manning had more, and better weapons at his disposal throughout his career, than did Brady. He refuses to fault Bill Polian for using his top draft choices on receivers, RBs, and on the OL...all to assist Gomer...at the expense of the Indy defense. 

         I repeat, this is yet another example of why UD6, a/k/a The Dog(gggg), has no credibility here, and should not be taken seriously.

           
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    TP - I've already proven that most of Brady's playoff games were not in substandard weather. 

    On the other hand, you are wrong about my feelings on Polian.  I think he was/is a very good personnel guy, but he's shown plenty of mistakes over the past few years.  A Gonzalez (although unless there was a known injury history, this couldn't have been projected), Tony Ugoh, Quinn Pitcock, Mike Pollak, Donald Brown (although after only 2 years he deserves another before he's labeled significantly less effective than his draft status)

    In the last 4 years, he's hit on the following defensive players: A Bethea (6th); C Session (4th); P Wheeler (3rd); J Powers (3rd); P Angerer (2nd) - potential misses on D are:  F Moala (2nd); J Hughes (1st)
     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?:
    [QUOTE]TP - I've already proven that most of Brady's playoff games were not in substandard weather.

    RESPONSE: There you go again...misdirecting the discussion. The issue is whether Manning's career stats...both playoff and regular season...are inflated due to the fact that he's played the great majority of his games in a dome, or in good weather? Do you deny that Manning playing in a dome and good weather for the great majority of his games was a huge aid to him in putting up his Manning Meter numbers? 

    On the other hand, you are wrong about my feelings on Polian.  I think he was/is a very good personnel guy, but he's shown plenty of mistakes over the past few years.  A Gonzalez (although unless there was a known injury history, this couldn't have been projected), Tony Ugoh, Quinn Pitcock, Mike Pollak, Donald Brown (although after only 2 years he deserves another before he's labeled significantly less effective than his draft status) In the last 4 years, he's hit on the following defensive players: A Bethea (6th); C Session (4th); P Wheeler (3rd); J Powers (3rd); P Angerer (2nd) - potential misses on D are:  F Moala (2nd); J Hughes (1st)

    RESPONSE: Again. trying to misdirect and side-step the issue. The question is, do you agree that Manning had better weapons at receiver and RB to work with throughout his long career, than did Tom Brady?

         As for Polian, you constantly make an issue about how the Patriots had a better "D" than your lovables. Polian sacrificed his "D" to give Mr. Wonderful the very best weapons available...while Tom Brady had to make due, largely with bargain basement type talent. Number one draft choices were used on pro-bowlers Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Edgerrin James, and Joe Addai. Another #1 pick was sacrificed in order to draft OT Tony Ugoh...and a number one was spent this year on Anthony Castonzo. The Colts top pick was used on another offensive lineman, Mike Pollak, in 2008. In 2007 and 2009, the Colts used their number ones on Anthony Gonzalez and on RB Donald Brown. All at the expense of the defense, and all to aid Gomer's climb up the Manning Meter.   
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]
     

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