Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    Yep - I think Manning's been better.  He's been asked to do more and be more responsible for his team's success than anyone, including Brady.  Its why both the NFL Network and Sporting News polls of NFL personnel and writers picked Manning #1.  No reason to argue with the people inside the game.  

    I find it enjoyably funny that you consider my reasons to be qualifications, but I understand it.  You're a ball washer for Brady, and can't stand someone like me with a validly dissenting opinion. 

    I never said that Manning's receivers were bad, but I do believe that Manning made them significantly better.  Did you know that Harrison didn't sniff a post season award until Manning showed up.  Some people now think that Reggie Wayne may be better than Harrison and has been one of the best receivers of the last decade, except that he didn't sniff a postseason award until his 6th season.  Dallas Clark - 8 seasons in the league, but only 1 probowl.  Yet you want to make him out to be the best thing since sliced bread.  In Indiana, we believe it, but we are homers, like you are for Brady.  Maybe we are blind, maybe these guys really aren't as good as we thought they were. 

    The point I was making was regarding other receivers (lets not turn this into a belichick is a great drafter thread - we've already got one of those going), is that there are a heckuva alot of 1st rd receivers taken in the last decade that busted.  If I were to include those taken in the 1st 5 picks of the second (which is closer to where Wayne was taken at 30), I could probably add to the total. 

    That said, your point about the pats defense is well taken.  The greatness of it from about '01-'08 is that it allowed Brady to operate as a game manager as opposed to having the pressure to win the games like Manning. 
     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    You mean like Brady?  How'd that discount work out for Brady?
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?:
    Yep - I think Manning's been better.  He's been asked to do more and be more responsible for his team's success than anyone, including Brady.

    RESPONSE: I should hope so. Last time I checked, Brady plays for the Patriots...not the Colts. In Indy, you're saddled with the greatest choke artist in NFL history...and...you're right...Manning has been most responsible for all those chokes, over the years.  

    Its why both the NFL Network and Sporting News polls of NFL personnel and writers picked Manning #1.  No reason to argue with the people inside the game.

    RESPONSE: That's laughable.

    I find it enjoyably funny that you consider my reasons to be qualifications, but I understand it.  You're a ball washer for Brady, and can't stand someone like me with a validly dissenting opinion.

    RESPONSE: Using my terminology now, are we, Dog(gggg)? I do completely "understand" you. You are a blind Indy homer, and have had  a man-crush on Peyton for years. But, really...don't you think it's unseemly for a 46 year old man to be sleeping with a Peyton Manning blow-up doll? Hasn't your wife voiced a complaint yet? If she hasn't, that should give you cause to pause.

    I never said that Manning's receivers were bad, but I do believe that Manning made them significantly better.  Did you know that Harrison didn't sniff a post season award until Manning showed up.

    RESPONSE: Typical Doggie do-do, here. Harrison was drafted 19th overall in 1996, only a couple of years before Peyton. In Harrison's first two seasons, the Colts were quarterbacked by Jim Harbaugh, now the head coach of the 49ers. Harrison had a very productive rookie season, finishing with 64 receptions for 836 yards, and 8 TDs...while playing on a 9-7 team. In 1997, though the Colts dropped to 3-13, Harrison was still productive, finishing with 73 receptions for 866 yards, and 6 TDs. In  Manning's rookie season in 1998, the Colts finished an abysmal 3-13 again...and Harrison's production dropped to 59 receptions for 776 yards, and 7 TDs. Thereafter, he and Peyton grew into a lethal tandem. Do you deny that having a receiver of Harrison's caliber was a huge benefit to Peyton? Prior to the arrival of Randy Moss in 2007, has Tom Brady had such a gifted WR to work with? Do you deny that Manning substantially benefited from playing his games in a climate controlled dome?    

     Some people now think that Reggie Wayne may be better than Harrison and has been one of the best receivers of the last decade, except that he didn't sniff a postseason award until his 6th season.

    RESPONSE: We both know that those people, whoever they are, are wrong. Though Wayne has evolved into a great player, he's not as good as Harrison was. Further more, you choose to gloss over the fact that Harrison, Wayne, and Dallas Clark were all #1 draft choices. Meanwhile, Tom Brady, during his SB years, toiled with the likes of Troy Brown (8th round draft choice), Deion Branch (a late second round pick), David Givens (a 7th round pick)

    Dallas Clark - 8 seasons in the league, but only 1 probowl.  Yet you want to make him out to be the best thing since sliced bread.

    RESPONSE: How typical of a Colts fans to judge a career in terms of pro-bowl appearances, rather than championships, and wins. What's your point...that's Clark is on par with former Patriots' TE, Ben Watson? That Clark is vastly overrated?

    In Indiana, we believe it, but we are homers, like you are for Brady.

    RESPONSE: Please don't put me in the same category as you. Unlike you, I believe myself to be quite objective.

    Maybe we are blind, maybe these guys really aren't as good as we thought they were.

    RESPONSE: No maybes about it...y'all are blind! Blinded by you're Peyton hero worship, and Indy bias.

    The point I was making was regarding other receivers (lets not turn this into a belichick is a great drafter thread - we've already got one of those going), is that there are a heckuva alot of 1st rd receivers taken in the last decade that busted.  If I were to include those taken in the 1st 5 picks of the second (which is closer to where Wayne was taken at 30), I could probably add to the total.

    RESPONSE: What does that have to do with Harrison, Wayne, and Clark? All turned out to be very good players. You're really not trying to imply that, without Peyton being in their lives, they would have been busts...are you??  

    That said, your point about the pats defense is well taken.  The greatness of it from about '01-'08 is that it allowed Brady to operate as a game manager as opposed to having the pressure to win the games like Manning.

    RESPONSE: No...that's not my point. That's your warped point. My point was that the Pats' defense was better than Indy's because the Pats spend more high draft choices and money on the defensive side of the ball...while Indy spent their draft choices and money primarily on weapons for Peyton. Because Peyton had far more, and better weapons than Brady...and the fact that he played most of his games in a climate controlled dome...allowed him to accumulate his gaudy passing stats throughout his career. Meanwhile, Brady did almost as well statistically with far less weaponry...and in weather conditions better suited for polar bears, than hall of fame QBs.
    Posted by UD6
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    I don't know TexasPat, the Pat's D is a strong contender against Manning for greatest choker in NFL history. The collapse against Indy and letting Eli march down for a winning TD are legend.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    Tex - what you might find laughable doesn't matter when it is the truth.  That Publication and Network through polling of players/ former players/ and executives picked Manning.

    As for the receivers, I think you need to answer this question:  What matters, draft position or playing effectiveness? 

    Here's what I am getting at:  If draft position only correlates to eliteness (a word?), then players drafted in the 1st 2 rounds are the elite players:  Here are the elite Ball catchers (WR & TE) Brady had at his disposal 01-06  (6 years):    T Glenn 1st;  C Johnson 1st;  R Rutledge 2nd;  B Emanuel 2nd;  D Branch 2nd;  C Cleeland 2nd;  C Fauria 2nd;  D Graham 1st;  B Johnson 2nd;  JJ Stokes 1st;  B Watson 1st;  A Davis 2nd;  R Caldwell 2nd;  J Gaffney 2nd;  C Jackson 2nd  (15 1st or 2nd rdrs in 6 years - Very elite). 

    By contrast in Manning's entire 13 year career, he's had the following elite ball catchers:    M Harrison 1st;  K Dilger 2nd;  J Pathon 2nd;  R Wayne 1st;  T Simmons 2nd;  Q Ismail 2nd;  D Clark 1st;  A Gonzalez 1st  (8 in 13 years)

    Manning had half the elite receivers and TE's as Brady in twice as many years, if draft position determines eliteness.  Brady was flush with great receivers.  

    Now, if playing effectiveness is all that matters, then I'll tell you that it didn't matter that Troy Brown was an 8th Round selection just as it didn't matter that Marcus Pollard was an undrafted free agent, or that Wes Welker was an undrafted free agent.  The point - Brady had plenty of great receivers at his disposal.  The only year he may have been thin was 06 and he had Gaffney who I think is good and still had Brown, Watson, and Graham.     
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?:
    Tex - what you might find laughable doesn't matter when it is the truth.  That Publication and Network through polling of players/ former players/ and executives picked Manning.
     
    RESPONSE: I can understand why the media would gravitate toward Manning.  I'd like to know how heavily weighted this alleged poll was to the media, versus players. I doubt that players would choose the Picasso of the art of the choke over a winner like Brady. Please give a cite to your alleged poll. 

    As for the receivers, I think you need to answer this question:  What matters, draft position or playing effectiveness?  Here's what I am getting at:  If draft position only correlates to eliteness (a word?), then players drafted in the 1st 2 rounds are the elite players:  Here are the elite Ball catchers (WR & TE) Brady had at his disposal 01-06  (6 years):    T Glenn 1st;  C Johnson 1st;  R Rutledge 2nd;  B Emanuel 2nd;  D Branch 2nd;  C Cleeland 2nd;  C Fauria 2nd;  D Graham 1st;  B Johnson 2nd;  JJ Stokes 1st;  B Watson 1st;  A Davis 2nd;  R Caldwell 2nd;  J Gaffney 2nd;  C Jackson 2nd  (15 1st or 2nd rdrs in 6 years - Very elite).  By contrast in Manning's entire 13 year career, he's had the following elite ball catchers:    M Harrison 1st;  K Dilger 2nd;  J Pathon 2nd;  R Wayne 1st;  T Simmons 2nd;  Q Ismail 2nd;  D Clark 1st;  A Gonzalez 1st  (8 in 13 years) Manning had half the elite receivers and TE's as Brady in twice as many years, if draft position determines eliteness.

    RESPONSE: LOL!! What a croc!!!

    Now, if playing effectiveness is all that matters, then I'll tell you that it didn't matter that Troy Brown was an 8th Round selection just as it didn't matter that Marcus Pollard was an undrafted free agent, or that Wes Welker was an undrafted free agent.  The point - Brady had plenty of great receivers at his disposal.  The only year he may have been thin was 06 and he had Gaffney who I think is good and still had Brown, Watson, and Graham.

    RESPONSE: More Dog(gggg)ie do-do...LOL!!! 
    Posted by UD6

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    Tex you can go ahead and look it up.  I'm sure you'll find it online.  And you should know all about the NFL Networks poll that came out last year. 

    BTW - how come you didn't answer my question.  What matter's draft position or play on the field?
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?:
    Tex you can go ahead and look it up.  I'm sure you'll find it online.  And you should know all about the NFL Networks poll that came out last year.

    RESPONSE: Why can't you produce it? Or, is this just another of your lies and misrepresentations, which you pluck out of thin air to support your bogus positions? 

    BTW - how come you didn't answer my question.  What matter's draft position or play on the field?

    RESPONSE: You are again trying to misdirect the discussion. I'm not falling for it. The issue had to do with who had the better receivers to work with...Brady or Manning. It had nothing to do with a whether  draft position matters. Are you seriously trying to argue that Brady had better receivers to work with than Manning?
         Speaking of unanswered questions, do you deny that playing most of his games in a dome was a huge advantage for Manning over Brady?  

    Posted by UD6

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    What a cop-out.  Patty, here are your words:  

      Further more, you choose to gloss over the fact that Harrison, Wayne, and Dallas Clark were all #1 draft choices. Meanwhile, Tom Brady, during his SB years, toiled with the likes of Troy Brown (8th round draft choice), Deion Branch (a late second round pick), David Givens (a 7th round pick)

    Your statement begged the question:  What's important, draft position or play on the field? You led me to it.  It's relevant that you answer it. 

    As for Manning playing in a dome, can you be more specific about how Manning may have benefitted by playing in a dome?  For example, I don't see it from a team wins and losses perspective because the opposition gets the same benefit.  If weather is a question, then the only weather that matters is extreme cold, snow, or rain.  I suppose the amount of that benefit could be quantified if someone were willing to research how many games Manning played in Indy's dome when there was bad weather otherwise.  
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    Patty, to appease and enable your laziness. 

    http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2009-09-09/sporting-news-nfl-top-100-peyton-manning-no-1-on-our-experts-list

    http://top100.nfl.com/all-time-100
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sam-Adams. Show Sam-Adams's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    UD6,

    I'll try this another way. In all honesty who do think id better, Joe Montana or Dan Marino?
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from lippa. Show lippa's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    Well I would have to say montana cause of SB wins but stats are very close overall
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?:
    UD6, I'll try this another way. In all honesty who do think id better, Joe Montana or Dan Marino?
    Posted by Sam-Adams


    who cares.  this isn't about Montana and Marino.  This is about Brady and Manning.  That's apples and oranges. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from lippa. Show lippa's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    UD6 I think the point his tring to make its about SB wins and nothing else.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?:


    Well, that thing says Brady got more 1st place votes than Manning, 50-35, and it's 2 years old.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    Babe, yes. 

    And since that time, both Manning and Brady have won an MVP, Manning's been to a SB is 2-2 in the playoffs and Brady's 0-2. 

    Babe, I'll admit, that going forward, I could see Brady being better if only because I have real concern about Manning's neck. 

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?:
    UD6 I think the point his tring to make its about SB wins and nothing else.
    Posted by lippa


    Lippa - the SB's certainly have their place in the discussion, but they don't decide it.  And you are right he is trying to make that point, because it is the only thing that Brady has over Manning. 

    Food for thought - Brady didn't stop the greatest show on turf.  His defense did.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?:
    In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end? : Lippa - the SB's certainly have their place in the discussion, but they don't decide it.  And you are right he is trying to make that point, because it is the only thing that Brady has over Manning.  Food for thought - Brady didn't stop the greatest show on turf.  His defense did.
    Posted by UD6


    Actually, Brady has better quality of stats and arguably equal accolades. And then there is the dome and nice weather factor. So Brady clearly wins.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    what do you mean better quality of stats?

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?:
    what do you mean better quality of stats?
    Posted by UD6


    Well, Brady has a better passer rating and a much lower rate of interceptions. His TD% is slightly better as well.  And those leads for Brady are even more pronounced when you examine outdoor/indoor where he is significantly better than Manning in both venues. Of course it is nearly universal that stats are higher indoors so the overall stats look closer. And that does not account for Peyton playing so much in nice weather places as opposed to Brady's miserable northeast locales.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    Babe - Brady just did overtake Manning this year in Rg Seas passer rating due to his great year and Manning's bad year.  Manning has a higher passer rating in the all important (at least on this board) playoffs.  Yet Manning has passed an average of an entire games worth of passes each year more than Brady over their active (non-benched, non-injured) years.  He also did this with more of a vertical passing game than the pats ball control dink and dunk game.

    Further Manning has a better yds/attempt average, more yards per game and fewer sacks behind a worse overall line. 

    Manning has 4 MVP and 5 First Team all Pro to Brady's 2 and 2. 

    I think Brady's great.  Manning's better.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    In Response to Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?:
    Babe - Brady just did overtake Manning this year in Rg Seas passer rating due to his great year and Manning's bad year.  Manning has a higher passer rating in the all important (at least on this board) playoffs.  Yet Manning has passed an average of an entire games worth of passes each year more than Brady over their active (non-benched, non-injured) years.  He also did this with more of a vertical passing game than the pats ball control dink and dunk game. Further Manning has a better yds/attempt average, more yards per game and fewer sacks behind a worse overall line.  Manning has 4 MVP and 5 First Team all Pro to Brady's 2 and 2.  I think Brady's great.  Manning's better.
    Posted by UD6


    Well, he did overtake him. That's the key. And this despite an injury many guys never come back from.

    And again you ignore the venue. Brady's passer rating is nearly 4 points better outdoors (and in worse weather when he is outdoors than Manning) and is nearly 5 points better indoors.

    Brady's 111-32 record is quite better than Manning's 141-67. As is his 14-5 playoff record compared to Manning's 9-9.

    As far as MVP Manning has a tie (let's give him 1/2, and 3 others, one VERY dubious) and Brady has a comeback of the year award and a sportsman of the year award (the one no NFL player had gotten since Montana). Plus Brady has 2 SBMVPs to Manning's one. Oh, and there is Brady's only time ever unanimous MVP.

    And then of course there are the 3 SB rings to one.

    It's not very close, Brady wins.

    You are rather desparately clinging to the votes of writers to carry your case that Manning is better, at the expense of all other measures most persons consider.

    (And the dink and dunk comment is just spin. Their career Y/A is within just about 12" of each other, their average per completion, less than that.)
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Quagmire3. Show Quagmire3's posts

    Re: Colts' Manning undergoes 2nd neck surgery Since Feb 2010. Beginning of the end?

    A few months ago I posted this article; Stats say what rings suggested; Brady is better than Manning  http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/kerry_byrne/12/21/tom-brady-peyton-manning/index.html?eref=sihp
    and that troll UD6 responds that the article was written by "a Boston hack." So I respond by posting this article which was written by well respected Indy writer Bob Kravitz saying Brady was better than Manning. www.indystar.com/article/20101121/SPORTS03/11210353/Kravitz-Online-voters-favor-Colts-Manning-say-Patriots-Brady

    I think the article has been archived but an exerpt is this;  
    "Statistically, in the regular season, Manning vs. Brady is a virtual wash...

    So I go to the tiebreaker:The postseason. When it matters most. When reputations are made and legends are built. Brady is 14-4 in the postseason, has won three Super Bowls and would have had a fourth if not for a miraculous catch by the New York Giants' David Tyree...Manning is 9-9, including 1-1 in the Super Bowl."

    Bottom line is Brady has proven to be a better QB,  but you can never convince a moronic troll like UD6. He will always twist facts to fit his argument!

     
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