Complaining About Pats Cap Space

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from DoNotSleepOnThePats. Show DoNotSleepOnThePats's posts

    Complaining About Pats Cap Space

    In Mike Reiss's chat today, someone complained about the Pats being $10 million under the cap and not using any money to sign Welker or other free agents that could help right away.  Reiss's answer, as usual, was thoughtful and intelligent...

     

    "I think the under-the-cap stuff is some of the most misunderstood chatter in all of football. I am guessing this is talk-radio driven, and it's often misleading. Here is my take on the whole under-the-cap stuff with the Patriots: 1) They will use all their cap space this year when all is said and done; 2) You always want to leave some cap room for emergencies during the season; 3) With a big dead charge on the cap next year with Aaron Hernandez (assuming the Patriots don't get relief), strategic planning takes on added importance; 4) Some of that cap space will go to players already on the roster (Wendell, McCourty, Ninkovich, Spikes etc.). ..."

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Complaining About Pats Cap Space

    In response to DoNotSleepOnThePats' comment:

    In Mike Reiss's chat today, someone complained about the Pats being $10 million under the cap and not using any money to sign Welker or other free agents that could help right away.  Reiss's answer, as usual, was thoughtful and intelligent...

     

    "I think the under-the-cap stuff is some of the most misunderstood chatter in all of football. I am guessing this is talk-radio driven, and it's often misleading. Here is my take on the whole under-the-cap stuff with the Patriots: 1) They will use all their cap space this year when all is said and done; 2) You always want to leave some cap room for emergencies during the season; 3) With a big dead charge on the cap next year with Aaron Hernandez (assuming the Patriots don't get relief), strategic planning takes on added importance; 4) Some of that cap space will go to players already on the roster (Wendell, McCourty, Ninkovich, Spikes etc.). ..."



    Some things to point out, I like Reiss but he's just making guesses at this point, of which two of his points contradict each other

    Points 1 and 3. The huge cap hit for Hernandez does not count towards this year nor was it known before the 1st and 2nd FA period that Hernandez murdered someone. Really it only effects the players signed at the waiver period, which they ended up signing 4 waivers (a high number even for the Pats). So, clearly Hernandez's huge cap hit next year didn't prevent them from using the space. But more importantly, if they are planning to carry over salary from this year into next year to help with that cap hit it means of the $10+mil, $5mil can't be carried over so they can't spend to the cap, nor really extend any critical players to large contracts if they want to save money for the cap hit next year.

    Additionally the you always leave cap space for emergencies, while true to a degree hasn't prevented a single team from signing street FA's in the past regardless of cap situation. That point #2 is so overblown it's not even funny. Show me one team in the existence of the league that hasn't been able to sign street FA's regardless of cap space left on the team and had to go into a week with 52 players instead of 53 because of it. There is always ways to get street FA's, it's not like we are talking that they are going to sign a starter during the season. Yes I know a trade can happen but trades in the NFL during the season are rare and how many involve starters or higher priced base salaries? Pretty much none.

    However, Reiss did cover all his bases, if they don't spend he can say he was right about #3, if they extend then he can say he was right about #1 and #4, and no matter what they will sign someone during the year so he will always claim #2. It's like Commie, if you toss enough against the wall you will always claim victory.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Complaining About Pats Cap Space

    You know what?  I typically know what the cap is from year to year, generally get good info from several sources re: what the cap hit will be for a particular player and how much cap room the Pats have.  Beyond that, I'm going to leave NFL salary cap management to those who actually no sh1t know what they're doing.  I'm no where near knowledgeable enough to know whether the Pats are mismanaging their cap.  I'm assuming that Kraft is a pretty savvy cat with regard to the business side of football and the cap is part of it.  Criticize BB if you will, I'm going to assume he's got some pretty savvy people projecting how a particular move will impact the cap.  Perhaps there are those in this forum who really get the intricacies of the cap and the nuances of what a certain move will do or won't.  If so, more power to 'em.  I know that I don't.  

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Complaining About Pats Cap Space

    The emergency money is such a joke.

    They'll go with super discount players to start the season in case they have a problem later and need to find high priced players for replacements? 

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from NoMorePensionLooting. Show NoMorePensionLooting's posts

    Re: Complaining About Pats Cap Space

    Maybe the money is for this year.....

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: Complaining About Pats Cap Space

    Maybe Kraft needs to pay for a booob job!

     

    "Take care of my B*tch, I may need her back in a couple years"

    Brady to Manning after Wes signed with Denver

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mike-J-D. Show Mike-J-D's posts

    Re: Complaining About Pats Cap Space

    What Kraft needs to do is hire someone from this board to replace Belichick as GM.  I mean, it's obvious that he is average at best and there are at least 20 posters on this board alone who would do a better job.  Plus, I'm sure that person would be willing to work for less than half of Belichick's salary so Kraft would be all about it considering how cheap he is.  I know he's cheap because I read it on this board.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Low-FB-IQ. Show Low-FB-IQ's posts

    Re: Complaining About Pats Cap Space

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

     

    In response to DoNotSleepOnThePats' comment:

     

     

     

    In Mike Reiss's chat today, someone complained about the Pats being $10 million under the cap and not using any money to sign Welker or other free agents that could help right away.  Reiss's answer, as usual, was thoughtful and intelligent...

     

    "I think the under-the-cap stuff is some of the most misunderstood chatter in all of football. I am guessing this is talk-radio driven, and it's often misleading. Here is my take on the whole under-the-cap stuff with the Patriots: 1) They will use all their cap space this year when all is said and done; 2) You always want to leave some cap room for emergencies during the season; 3) With a big dead charge on the cap next year with Aaron Hernandez (assuming the Patriots don't get relief), strategic planning takes on added importance; 4) Some of that cap space will go to players already on the roster (Wendell, McCourty, Ninkovich, Spikes etc.). ..."

     

     



    Some things to point out, I like Reiss but he's just making guesses at this point, of which two of his points contradict each other

     

     

    Points 1 and 3. The huge cap hit for Hernandez does not count towards this year nor was it known before the 1st and 2nd FA period that Hernandez murdered someone. Really it only effects the players signed at the waiver period, which they ended up signing 4 waivers (a high number even for the Pats). So, clearly Hernandez's huge cap hit next year didn't prevent them from using the space. But more importantly, if they are planning to carry over salary from this year into next year to help with that cap hit it means of the $10+mil, $5mil can't be carried over so they can't spend to the cap, nor really extend any critical players to large contracts if they want to save money for the cap hit next year.

    Additionally the you always leave cap space for emergencies, while true to a degree hasn't prevented a single team from signing street FA's in the past regardless of cap situation. That point #2 is so overblown it's not even funny. Show me one team in the existence of the league that hasn't been able to sign street FA's regardless of cap space left on the team and had to go into a week with 52 players instead of 53 because of it. There is always ways to get street FA's, it's not like we are talking that they are going to sign a starter during the season. Yes I know a trade can happen but trades in the NFL during the season are rare and how many involve starters or higher priced base salaries? Pretty much none.

    However, Reiss did cover all his bases, if they don't spend he can say he was right about #3, if they extend then he can say he was right about #1 and #4, and no matter what they will sign someone during the year so he will always claim #2. It's like Commie, if you toss enough against the wall you will always claim victory.

     



    I am not argueing you need $10mil to cover #2 by any remote strecth. I certainly don't pay any where near the attention to cap stuff as you do.  I always take  your word for things in this area.

     

    I do however call you out on this point highlighted above. You chose your words carefully, just like Reiss I guess.

    You said it has never stopped a team from signing a street FA?

    1) Do you know that to really be true? It has never happened, ever? I suspect you are correct but just wondering. Is that officially tracked somewhere?

    2) Even if it is true , based on how you worded it, do you think the following is also true? A team has never NOT been able to sign the street FA "that it wanted"? At least not without having to do other "forced" and unwanted roster/cap manipululations?

    How does that work?

    Let's say you have $300,000 in cap space. You have a rash of injuries and the FA's you actually want, out of what is left, are all many year vested vets. Through the course of the season you end up needing say four of them and each one comes with a mandatory minimum salary of 940,000 this season. How do you accomodate that when each guy accounts for 58,750 per game? That is only 2 games for one guy and 1 game for each of the other three before you use up the available cap. Or do I have all of that incorrect? It certainly would not shock me.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Complaining About Pats Cap Space


    People don't get it because they are irrational trolls that only think about winning this year. If you ever went to college you'd know that the NFL salary cap is set up just like real life, except with the NFL you have an endless supply of money and can literally make up your own rules at the end of the season (in the owners meetings). People don't understand just how close this all is to balancing a check book or paying a mortgage, with the only difference being you won't go out of business, are guaranteed to make money and your "friends" own a team/house just like you with the same interests (making money, winning and trying to keep those damn lawsuits to a absolute minimum). And if you have a all time great head coach and a all time great QB...what's 7-10 million you didn't spend to the cap? You're still going to win, right? And hey! Eight million...ten million, is still not bad pocket change even you are worth a billion:) 

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Complaining About Pats Cap Space

    In response to mthurl's comment:


    People don't get it because they are irrational trolls that only think about winning this year. If you ever went to college you'd know that the NFL salary cap is set up just like real life, except with the NFL you have an endless supply of money and can literally make up your own rules at the end of the season (in the owners meetings). People don't understand just how close this all is to balancing a check book or paying a mortgage, with the only difference being you won't go out of business, are guaranteed to make money and your "friends" own a team/house just like you with the same interests (making money, winning and trying to keep those damn lawsuits to a absolute minimum). And if you have a all time great head coach and a all time great QB...what's 7-10 million you didn't spend to the cap? You're still going to win, right? And hey! Eight million...ten million, is still not bad pocket change even you are worth a billion:) 



    The link to he blog was not posted, and neither was the entire article. Mike goes on to say how the money spent has not been spent wisely these past years, and that where the focus should be. The Pats will spend every penny at the end of the day, but will they spend wisely? Mike appreciates spending slowly, but feels the Pats have not spent wisely

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Complaining About Pats Cap Space

    The Pats would have been in trouble against the cap, and forced to make some decisions they otherwise did not want to make, if Brady was counting $21m against the cap rather than $13 against the cap....

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from mia76. Show mia76's posts

    Re: Complaining About Pats Cap Space

    Emergency players can include trades - like last year with Talib. Not sure what his cap charge ended up being for the rest of the season, but I am pretty sure it was more than the Vet minimum that is what a street FA would likely sign for.

    And the structure of contract negotiations can have large cap hits in the year they are signed if a team has the cap space, which reduces the hit in future years. A new signing bonus for example is spread out over the length of the contract but that means if Spikes for example was extended and recieved a signing large signing bonus a prorated portion would be added to this years cap. Or the team could chouse to up his salary this year to 10M and not carry any of that onto his future years. But all that requires this years cap space. 

    And rolling over whatever they can into next year makes a lot of sense since they are likely taking a huge hit against 2014 cap.

    Finally - a lot of the target player people wanted them to sign wanted multi-year contracts so even saying they had the space this year does not account for the hit they would have taken going forward and the limitations to future moves of being tight against the cap migh require.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Complaining About Pats Cap Space

    I'm so sick of the "yeah but next year..." stuff when the team is constantly falling short this year.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Complaining About Pats Cap Space

    In response to Low-FB-IQ's comment:

     


    I am not argueing you need $10mil to cover #2 by any remote strecth. I certainly don't pay any where near the attention to cap stuff as you do.  I always take  your word for things in this area.

     

    I do however call you out on this point highlighted above. You chose your words carefully, just like Reiss I guess.

    You said it has never stopped a team from signing a street FA?

    1) Do you know that to really be true? It has never happened, ever? I suspect you are correct but just wondering. Is that officially tracked somewhere?

    2) Even if it is true , based on how you worded it, do you think the following is also true? A team has never NOT been able to sign the street FA "that it wanted"? At least not without having to do other "forced" and unwanted roster/cap manipululations?

    How does that work?

    Let's say you have $300,000 in cap space. You have a rash of injuries and the FA's you actually want, out of what is left, are all many year vested vets. Through the course of the season you end up needing say four of them and each one comes with a mandatory minimum salary of 940,000 this season. How do you accomodate that when each guy accounts for 58,750 per game? That is only 2 games for one guy and 1 game for each of the other three before you use up the available cap. Or do I have all of that incorrect? It certainly would not shock me.

     



    Little hard to prove something that didn't happen. It's kind of like someone keeping a database of all the times the moon hit the earth in the last 10,000 yrs

     

    Point #2 though I can't prove. However, logically speaking when has a player who is just sitting on his couch ever turned down a chance to play for fairly good money (even min wage) unless they had already a deal with another team or just couldn't play anymore? I mean if you were out of a job and someone offered you $100k would you turn them down and say, nah I was looking for $120k I'll just sit here instead?

    The last part you are right which is why I said it's somewhat true. You need to keep some money on reserve. However, the players you sign only count against the cap for the money they make while on the team. So if the vet min is $300k (way high btw) and they get signed after 8 games they only count for $150k against the cap. Additionally if they get cut after say the first game then only ~$20k gets counted because the contract wasn't guaranteed. So you can manage your way around the cap numbers pretty well. Additionally, you can extend a player during the year lowering his cap number by increasing the years his bonus is spread out. So say a player is 4 years into a contract that had $5mil signing spread over 5 years. You already covered $3mil so if you extend him 2 years giving him $1mil signing the remaining $3mil gets spread over the 4 years on the extended contract lowering his cap hit in the current year by $333k. Street FA's are insanely easy to fit on the teams. That's why the loopholes aren't closed because the NFLPA doesn't want them to be closed it makes it easier to get guys work during the year.

     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from provpats. Show provpats's posts

    Re: Complaining About Pats Cap Space

    Miguel has the cap at $7.6 M for this year so far not that much different than how they have entered other years

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from nyjetssuc. Show nyjetssuc's posts

    Re: Complaining About Pats Cap Space

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    I'm so sick of the "yeah but next year..." stuff when the team is constantly falling short this year.




    They are a business first, a sports team for the fans 2nd..all NFL teams, and other pro-sports teams, and, in fact, all major college football and basketball teams, are...business first, fans second...

    it's just the way it is...owning a business means managing a bottom line, providing for the future, and providing profits for the owners of the business...it's just all-american buysiness...they are doing things the right way, they are the 2nd most valuable NFL franchise...

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from nyjetssuc. Show nyjetssuc's posts

    Re: Complaining About Pats Cap Space

    In response to Bustchise's comment:

    In response to russgriswold's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to NoMorePensionLooting's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    Maybe the money is for this year.....

     

     



    Since they were trying to extend Mesko with him playing hardball, it's not out of the realm to see contracts come down for those who are due. Cushing just got overpaid for example. Houston was trying to budget for him which is why Quin is gone. It's why they lost Barwin or even Winston last year.

     

     

    McCourty and Nink will get new deals. BB loves them and their good players.  Spikes is a wait and see, but yeah, if they're trying to extend multiple players you have to be careful the year before if you are looking to approach players with new deals or already tried to and they rejected your extension offers.

    Extensions affect the current year if they are signed off on, or they can. They rip up the previous deal, kick in the new deal and roll out the remaining years of the new deal. Usually, that happens when you want to keep the player and not risk FA. Gronk, Hern, Brady are examples. Brady's was more of a cap reduction approach, however.

    NE will end up within 5 million of the cap once they submit their final rosters with salaries to the NFL. Any team going over the 5 million mark is taking a massive risk with leverage for new contracts. It's why Ozzie in Baltimore just had to overpay Flacco and lost half his defensive startes in one year, with no entrusted pipeline.

    Watch Denver, though. They cheated in this area 3 years in a row and then played dumb acting like it was some mistake. lmao

    Ironic. Baltimore opens up vs Denver tonight, two weaker run teams than ours.

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Bwa hahahahahaha! Really Queenie? Did you really post "their good players"? Typo, right? Didn't I warn you how much of an idiot you are when you plah grammar cop? Idiot.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    evening Phat Rex...you were just fatsam on the other thread...my oh my you think you fool everyone...you only fool the fools...

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from nyjetssuc. Show nyjetssuc's posts

    Re: Complaining About Pats Cap Space

    In response to Mike-J-D's comment:

    What Kraft needs to do is hire someone from this board to replace Belichick as GM.  I mean, it's obvious that he is average at best and there are at least 20 posters on this board alone who would do a better job.  Plus, I'm sure that person would be willing to work for less than half of Belichick's salary so Kraft would be all about it considering how cheap he is.  I know he's cheap because I read it on this board.




    Bravo, sir, BRAVO...lmao

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Complaining About Pats Cap Space

    Dumb.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from nyjetssuc. Show nyjetssuc's posts

    Re: Complaining About Pats Cap Space

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    Dumb.




    Sad

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Complaining About Pats Cap Space

    In response to mia76's comment:

    Emergency players can include trades - like last year with Talib. Not sure what his cap charge ended up being for the rest of the season, but I am pretty sure it was more than the Vet minimum that is what a street FA would likely sign for.

    And the structure of contract negotiations can have large cap hits in the year they are signed if a team has the cap space, which reduces the hit in future years. A new signing bonus for example is spread out over the length of the contract but that means if Spikes for example was extended and recieved a signing large signing bonus a prorated portion would be added to this years cap. Or the team could chouse to up his salary this year to 10M and not carry any of that onto his future years. But all that requires this years cap space. 

    And rolling over whatever they can into next year makes a lot of sense since they are likely taking a huge hit against 2014 cap.

    Finally - a lot of the target player people wanted them to sign wanted multi-year contracts so even saying they had the space this year does not account for the hit they would have taken going forward and the limitations to future moves of being tight against the cap migh require.




    First point, I fully admit this is true but how often do you see that? It's rare a player like that gets traded and it was only because he was a trouble maker. If not for the suspension TB wouldn't have traded him. Even still I believe his cap hit was under $2mil because of how deep in the season he was traded. $2mil isn't much and I have always said you keep $3mil min as emergency fund which even then is overkill most years.

    Second point, you are completely right about the extensions until that last point. There's language built into the CBA that prevents you from overloading the base salary into a single year. I forget the % but you can only put so much into a single year. It's put in there to prevent teams from completely backloading deals giving players essentially no base salary and paying them only the signing bonus. Don't forget extensions add to the current cap hit, so most extensions while adding cap (esp in rook contract cases) aren't huge leaps and rarely double from that years cap number. To use up all their cap they could resign Spikes, McCourty, Wendell, and Nink and most likely still have funds for "emergency" signings. That might be their plan but have you ever heard of BB extending that many players at once who weren't min level type of deals? 1 or two here or there and mainly only the star players. Except McCourty I'd think we'd both struggle to call the others really stars.

    Third point rolling over does make sense except for $5mil disappears into the air at the end of the season. So you are either spending $5mil to save $5mil or you are extending players which might not let you hit your limit but might mean you can't carry any funds over.

    Final point, a large number of starting caliber players took 1-2 year deals this offseason. Targeting players on multi years deals didn't seem like an issue for Amendola or A. Wilson who have 3+ year deals or the two year for Kelly. Now if the players they targeted wanted large money for long years I'd say that makes sense but most players either took longer years with lower contracts or short deals for bigger salaries this offseason. They could of had their pick with a number of players and still won. Which is funny because that's what they predicted would happen and didn't take advantage of it.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Complaining About Pats Cap Space

    In response to provpats' comment:

    Miguel has the cap at $7.6 M for this year so far not that much different than how they have entered other years



    Miguel's is counted against the $123.8mil league cap. The Pats carried over $5mil from last year allowing them to spend up to $128.8mil this year. However, funds they are allowed to carry over into next year are those under the league cap

     
  24. This post has been removed.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: Complaining About Pats Cap Space

    "We need to stop acting like we're Philly and Roseman/Reid the last few years. We're a 180 from that."

    I think that's a fair point, I agree.

    And along those same lines, you need to stop acting like Brady has played as poorly in the postseason in recent years as Peyton Manning, who has thrown season ending walk-off-the-field interceptions and has never left a Super Bowl by heading to the sidelines with his team in the lead, while Brady has done that twice (except of course for the laughable Super Bowl with the Bears, during a playoff run where Manning didn't play that well and he got to face the immortal Rex Grossman)

    So yeah, preach perspective - and hold yourself to it.. 

     

         
     
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