Current crop of CB's best ever in Belichick era?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Current crop of CB's best ever in Belichick era?

    It appears we have guys who compare favorably to the top 3 corners the Pats have had in the last 15 years, let alone all together on one team:

    Darrelle Revis = Ty Law

    Logan Ryan = Asante Samuel (Logan is the same height/weight off a better rookie year)

    Brandon Browner = Aqib Talib (Browner is taller and not quite as polished)

    After those 3 former Patriots the best Pats CB's in the BB era only had one very good season here. Otis Smith (in his age 36 year) in '01, Tyrone Poole ('03), Leigh Bodden ('09) and McCourty ('10). Smith and McCourty had 1-2 other decent but nothing special years at CB. 

    We still have McCourty as a safety and Dennard compares favorably to a younger Smith or a shorter Bodden. Poole was a better outside CB than Arrington but due to his size 5'8" was best as our slot guy and that is where Arrington is solid.

    Am I missing anyone? Hobbs? He had a few decent years, was a solid 3rd-4th CB meant to play in the slot but like Arrington too often forced to be a #2.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from HelmetofLeather. Show HelmetofLeather's posts

    Re: Current crop of CB's best ever in Belichick era?

    On paper...........

    My Marriage looked good on paper too.............

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Eldunker. Show Eldunker's posts

    Re: Current crop of CB's best ever in Belichick era?

    Thank heavens that the Pats won't have to waste any more picks on the secondary this draft.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Current crop of CB's best ever in Belichick era?

    Let's not forget for the longest time BB was in love with 5'10" CB's with quick twitch skill. Contrast that today, and a couple things come into focus.

    With the Revis signing, at least for this year, teams are going to throw away from Revis, at the other CB. IMO that is why the Pats went 3/$17 for Browner or they would have lost him. They needed a stud on the other corner, and Browner is just that. He can do almost as much as Talib could. 

    I don't think this defense would have been as effective with Dennerd opposite Revis, but I guess we find out the first 4 games of the season.

    is Dennerd or Ryan a better slot CB than Arrington? How does Arringtons contract look if he is relegated to the 5th CB mid season? 

    Pats have never had this much talent at CB. What is there to compare this group to? Really not much over the past 8 years or so. Size, experience, talent, depth...this group seems to have it all. 

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from HelmetofLeather. Show HelmetofLeather's posts

    Re: Current crop of CB's best ever in Belichick era?

    In response to rkarp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Let's not forget for the longest time BB was in love with 5'10" CB's with quick twitch skill. Contrast that today, and a couple things come into focus.

    With the Revis signing, at least for this year, teams are going to throw away from Revis, at the other CB. IMO that is why the Pats went 3/$17 for Browner or they would have lost him. They needed a stud on the other corner, and Browner is just that. He can do almost as much as Talib could. 

    I don't think this defense would have been as effective with Dennerd opposite Revis, but I guess we find out the first 4 games of the season.

    is Dennerd or Ryan a better slot CB than Arrington? How does Arringtons contract look if he is relegated to the 5th CB mid season? 

    Pats have never had this much talent at CB. What is there to compare this group to? Really not much over the past 8 years or so. Size, experience, talent, depth...this group seems to have it all. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Browner is not the stud at corner you might think, although BB will try him there. In the long run he will be much better suited lining up against TE's , backs releasing and giving us someone from the secondary to stick in the box . BB has always wanted a Tank Williams type player .

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from FishTaco64. Show FishTaco64's posts

    Re: Current crop of CB's best ever in Belichick era?

    I could see Browner also playing a LB type role in certain games. Namely games where the other team really only has one huge receiving threat. Then they can leave Revis on that guy, put Dennerd at the other CB spot and use Brown to pass-rush, play the run, or pick up the TE or RB. Agaianst teams like Chicago or Detroit with two very good WRs, they leave him covering the #2 WR. 

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from palookaski. Show palookaski's posts

    Re: Current crop of CB's best ever in Belichick era?

    Let's see how much this group cuts down on all those 3rd down and 20 yard long conversions.

    TB must be happy looking forward to this group getting the ball back and that means points.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from rtuinila. Show rtuinila's posts

    Re: Current crop of CB's best ever in Belichick era?

    Nah, till they prove it on the field, 2003's crop of Law, Samuel and Wilson was the best.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Current crop of CB's best ever in Belichick era?

    In response to rtuinila's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Nah, till they prove it on the field, 2003's crop of Law, Samuel and Wilson was the best.

    [/QUOTE]

    Wilson was a only a CB in college, converted to a FS like McCourty. Poole was the 3rd CB in '03 (he actually started over rookie Samuel).

    But I'll agree with you there that these guys have to prove it on the field and Browner is already down 4 games. I think our 4th and 5th CB's back then were Randall Gay and Earthwind Moreland, so Arrington and Dennard are better there.

    If you take it as an entire defensive backfield, safeties included, the '03 team with Harrison at SS was probably better b/c Harmon and Tavon Wilson are backups, Adrian Wilson may be done/cut and Browner is not a SS despite having the size. 

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from rtuinila. Show rtuinila's posts

    Re: Current crop of CB's best ever in Belichick era?

    In response to rameakap's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to rtuinila's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Nah, till they prove it on the field, 2003's crop of Law, Samuel and Wilson was the best.

    [/QUOTE]

    Wilson was a only a CB in college, converted to a FS like McCourty. Poole was the 3rd CB in '03 (he actually started over rookie Samuel).

    But I'll agree with you there that these guys have to prove it on the field and Browner is already down 4 games. I think our 4th and 5th CB's back then were Randall Gay and Earthwind Moreland, so Arrington and Dennard are better there.

    If you take it as an entire defensive backfield, safeties included, the '03 team with Harrison at SS was probably better b/c Harmon and Tavon Wilson are backups, Adrian Wilson may be done/cut and Browner is not a SS despite having the size. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Wilson still occasionally played CB. It was infrequent, but it happened. Gay and Moreland weren't on the team that year.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Current crop of CB's best ever in Belichick era?

    I don't think there is any question (at least on paper) that this is the most talented group of players in our secondary that we have ever had - weather they actually play like that remains to be seen - but either way it will be much better than we've come accustomed to over the last five years.

    Honestly if you look at each player, we have a guy for every type of situation...slot guy? We have an answer. Tightend? Browner should be able to cover him. Number one wideout? Revis lives for that stuff.

    What really may end up happening is that Brady will have a tough time running his offense during practice against these guys, which should make the receivers better in the long run.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Current crop of CB's best ever in Belichick era?

    In response to rtuinila's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Nah, till they prove it on the field, 2003's crop of Law, Samuel and Wilson was the best.

    [/QUOTE]

    But that was 11 years ago. Since those players left, this defensive back field has struggled

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Current crop of CB's best ever in Belichick era?

    I've posed this question in other threads and I still don't really know:  How much Safety has Browner played in his NFL career? I don't know.  I've seen a number of references to BB playing him back there but all of the video I've seen on him (he's physical to be sure) has him at corner.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from ghostofjri37. Show ghostofjri37's posts

    Re: Current crop of CB's best ever in Belichick era?

    In response to ATJ's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I've posed this question in other threads and I still don't really know:  How much Safety has Browner played in his NFL career? I don't know.  I've seen a number of references to BB playing him back there but all of the video I've seen on him (he's physical to be sure) has him at corner.

    [/QUOTE]

    They were in their sub packages almost 2/3 of the time last year. With the depth in the secondary they will have that much more flexibility scheme wise when they are in the sub package. I can see multiple players being used in different ways.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Current crop of CB's best ever in Belichick era?

    In response to FishTaco64's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I could see Browner also playing a LB type role in certain games. Namely games where the other team really only has one huge receiving threat. Then they can leave Revis on that guy, put Dennerd at the other CB spot and use Brown to pass-rush, play the run, or pick up the TE or RB. Agaianst teams like Chicago or Detroit with two very good WRs, they leave him covering the #2 WR. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Hah . . . this is funny.  We sign a corner and a day later he's a safety and now he's a LB.  By the end of the month, I predict he's going to be a nose tackle and no one is going to regret losing Wilfork anymore!

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from donrd4. Show donrd4's posts

    Re: Current crop of CB's best ever in Belichick era?

    In response to rkarp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Let's not forget for the longest time BB was in love with 5'10" CB's with quick twitch skill. Contrast that today, and a couple things come into focus.

    With the Revis signing, at least for this year, teams are going to throw away from Revis, at the other CB. IMO that is why the Pats went 3/$17 for Browner or they would have lost him. They needed a stud on the other corner, and Browner is just that. He can do almost as much as Talib could. 

    I don't think this defense would have been as effective with Dennerd opposite Revis, but I guess we find out the first 4 games of the season.

    is Dennerd or Ryan a better slot CB than Arrington? How does Arringtons contract look if he is relegated to the 5th CB mid season? 

    Pats have never had this much talent at CB. What is there to compare this group to? Really not much over the past 8 years or so. Size, experience, talent, depth...this group seems to have it all. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Seems to have it all.....On paper

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Pats7393. Show Pats7393's posts

    Re: Current crop of CB's best ever in Belichick era?

    One of Browner's biggest gifts is his physicality on the line, locking up WRs not letting them release cleanly creating havoc in timing.  You move him back off the LOS and one of his biggets strengths and best part of his game is gone.  While in coverage his not as gifted as Talib, so this is a timing issue for WRs.  

    Jam let DM read play and react give DEs get to QB, if you make browner play off and read and react he is not the same player.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Pats7393. Show Pats7393's posts

    Re: Current crop of CB's best ever in Belichick era?

    how come most don't think Harmon is the starting SS?  Kid did damn nice job last year and he looks like the real deal.  You don't need that hugh S/LB when you have solid back end play.  The O will be playing with a lead most of the time, safeties will need to cover long pass not be thumpers on constant basis.  also, harmon is not a small guy either, 6'1" 205 with good speed, range to play either spot.  

    Here's a good article on him

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1624721-new-england-patriots-in-defense-of-duron-harmon

    If you read about Harmon who was "a reach" according to the experts, he grades well against other safeties drafted in area he was.  He also has good game tape, although BB has missed with some guys who were reach IMO Harmon not one of those.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: Current crop of CB's best ever in Belichick era?

    In response to HelmetofLeather's comment:

    In response to rkarp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Let's not forget for the longest time BB was in love with 5'10" CB's with quick twitch skill. Contrast that today, and a couple things come into focus.

    With the Revis signing, at least for this year, teams are going to throw away from Revis, at the other CB. IMO that is why the Pats went 3/$17 for Browner or they would have lost him. They needed a stud on the other corner, and Browner is just that. He can do almost as much as Talib could. 

    I don't think this defense would have been as effective with Dennerd opposite Revis, but I guess we find out the first 4 games of the season.

    is Dennerd or Ryan a better slot CB than Arrington? How does Arringtons contract look if he is relegated to the 5th CB mid season? 

    Pats have never had this much talent at CB. What is there to compare this group to? Really not much over the past 8 years or so. Size, experience, talent, depth...this group seems to have it all. 



    Browner is not the stud at corner you might think, although BB will try him there. In the long run he will be much better suited lining up against TE's , backs releasing and giving us someone from the secondary to stick in the box . BB has always wanted a Tank Williams type player .

    [/QUOTE]

    I don't think browner is as good as Talib, but he won't have to be either. Revis is the key here because he forces the throw to the other side where we have Dennard or browner and mccourty can roll over just to one side. No guessing on mccourtys part. with browner on the field, he covers the TE, sending Collins and the lbs to blitz. This is the key. Revis enables a much more aggressive defense for the front, frees up the lbs and simplifies coverage responsibility for mccourty. Revis is the key to this whole thing and browner adds the size dimension to cover bigger wr's, te's, or play in the box. 

    Just remember how different the secondary performed with Talib in. Same thing here but +1 with addition of browner because this gives bb max flexibility with Collins and the LBs. this is exactly what bb likes. He likes to use his lbs to wreak havoc, and this lb corps should be amongst the best in the nfl next year. 

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: Current crop of CB's best ever in Belichick era?

    In response to Pats7393's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    how come most don't think Harmon is the starting SS?  Kid did damn nice job last year and he looks like the real deal.  You don't need that hugh S/LB when you have solid back end play.  The O will be playing with a lead most of the time, safeties will need to cover long pass not be thumpers on constant basis.  also, harmon is not a small guy either, 6'1" 205 with good speed, range to play either spot.  

    Here's a good article on him

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1624721-new-england-patriots-in-defense-of-duron-harmon

    If you read about Harmon who was "a reach" according to the experts, he grades well against other safeties drafted in area he was.  He also has good game tape, although BB has missed with some guys who were reach IMO Harmon not one of those.

    [/QUOTE]

    I like Harmon as well. No reason he and browner can't be on the field at the same time especially given the fact that we play so much sub defense, nickel and dime packages. The way I see it, the strength of this team now is the ability for bb to flood the field with an excellent set of secondary players, mixes of big and smaller guys, CBS and safeties, and using his lbs to blitz. It's a beautiful thing. 

    All we need now is to draft a stud DT. I dont think we nnecessarily need at de like some think, not given the fact we can use Collins in a much more of an attack mode and not relegated to covering TEs. Revis and browner potentially change everything.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from MileHighMike. Show MileHighMike's posts

    Re: Current crop of CB's best ever in Belichick era?

    In response to rkarp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Let's not forget for the longest time BB was in love with 5'10" CB's with quick twitch skill. Contrast that today, and a couple things come into focus.

    With the Revis signing, at least for this year, teams are going to throw away from Revis, at the other CB. IMO that is why the Pats went 3/$17 for Browner or they would have lost him. They needed a stud on the other corner, and Browner is just that. He can do almost as much as Talib could. 

    I don't think this defense would have been as effective with Dennerd opposite Revis, but I guess we find out the first 4 games of the season.

    is Dennerd or Ryan a better slot CB than Arrington? How does Arringtons contract look if he is relegated to the 5th CB mid season? 

    Pats have never had this much talent at CB. What is there to compare this group to? Really not much over the past 8 years or so. Size, experience, talent, depth...this group seems to have it all. 

    [/QUOTE]

    I was told that Arrington is the best slot corner in the NFL.  Therefore, Ryan or Dennard couldn't possibly be better.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from MileHighMike. Show MileHighMike's posts

    Re: Current crop of CB's best ever in Belichick era?

    In response to TravisBean's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Nope. One of the best in the AFC, though, absolutely. Was superb Weeks 1-4 last year in the full time role before he got the hammy tweak and was forced to play more outside, where isn't as good.

    Never said "the NFL".

    Your jealousy is a delight, though, Bustchise. We got Revis AND Browner.  Outright jealousy.

    You lost Revis and now Cromartie.  You have Milliner and Kylie Wilson on the outside. LMAO

    BUSTS

    [/QUOTE]

    Queenie, did you realize that the Jets traded Revis before last season for the DROY and cut Cromartie becasue he when from a  top 5 CB to well below average?  Hey, aren't you the idiot that called the defensive rookie of the last month of the 2013 season a bust?  Yeah you are.  What an idiot.   Still claiming Chris Jones had a better year than Sheldon?  Bwahahahahahahahaha! Idiot.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Current crop of CB's best ever in Belichick era?

    In response to Pats7393's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    how come most don't think Harmon is the starting SS?  Kid did damn nice job last year and he looks like the real deal.  You don't need that hugh S/LB when you have solid back end play.  The O will be playing with a lead most of the time, safeties will need to cover long pass not be thumpers on constant basis.  also, harmon is not a small guy either, 6'1" 205 with good speed, range to play either spot.  

    Here's a good article on him

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1624721-new-england-patriots-in-defense-of-duron-harmon

    If you read about Harmon who was "a reach" according to the experts, he grades well against other safeties drafted in area he was.  He also has good game tape, although BB has missed with some guys who were reach IMO Harmon not one of those.

    [/QUOTE]

    Great post, the kid did indeed impress. He'd be a nice 3rd safety IMO since a team considering itself one of the 4 best in football should really have a legit veteran there and not a starter we 'hope' puts all the good things he showed in small doses into 70% of the snaps at the position.

    I wasn't as annoyed or shocked by the Harmon pick as I was with taking Tavon Wilson one pick ahead of stud DE/DT Kendell Reyes... that was AWFUL.

    The thing that left a bad taste in my mouth with last years draft was that for an extra 700-900k on the offer sheet BB could have given Emmanuel Sanders a contract Pitt would not have matched. With Sanders here the team gives up the Harmon pick, then Harmon is 99.99% still on the board early 4th and Bill could have taken him instead of Boyce. Then, this club that struggled BADLY in the passing game for most of this season probably wins the Jets, Dolphins and Bengals games. They still might lose the Panthers and Saints games (Sanders in at the end vs. Saints over Kenbrell and a VERY hard catch), but unless they lost the Broncos games b/c of having Sanders over Boyce the AFCCG is played in Foxboro.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: Current crop of CB's best ever in Belichick era?

    They will have to beat the 2003 Pats:

    Ty Law - 6 INTs, 23 Passes Defensed

    Tyrone Poole - 6 INTs, 21 Passes Defensed

    Rookie Asante Samuel - 2 INTs, 9 Passes Defensed

    Those PD numbers are off the charts. Sherman has 17, 24, 18 in each of his three years. Revis has highs of 31 and 21, both with the NYJ. Poole and Law each had ELITE seasons.

    73 Passes Defensed, 21 INTs from their Top 5 DBs overall (including Rodney and Eugene Wilson). That's absurd. If they do that again, they'll have another dominant D and ring.

    http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/2003.htm

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from kevin13130. Show kevin13130's posts

    Re: Current crop of CB's best ever in Belichick era?

    Regarding Brandon Browner, apologies if this has been posted already, but...

    Dude lights up three Cardinals in a row for his punt returner - on a fair catch.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XU0SbhuPi8k

     

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