In response to TrueChamp's comment:
In response to zbellino's comment:
Haha. I have to crack up at that draft.
I had Chung, Brace, AND Butler on my board! Haha. While it proves I have a good idea what NE is looking for positionally ... it was really a waterloo of a draft.
Still, I think Chung has basically been the middle of my expectations. I saw him as a guy who *at least* wouldn't be out of the NFL. He's a start somewhere.
The problem is with Butler and Brace I thought they could stick around as depth as their floor.
Still the beat goes on with NE trying to staff their SS spot ... this time with Adrian Wilson. Let's hope someone finally sticks.
Hey Z, do you think the loss of RAC and then Mangini could have had a negative effect on the development of defensive players over the course of the rebuild? Or does it all fall back on a players talent level and the GM should pick the guys who will do well no matter what kind of experience the coaching staff has?
Maybe coaching matters in regards to "hitting" on drafted players.....
This is kind of a false dilemma. Why does it have to be one or the other? Both are huge parts of building a team. One is scouting players and deciding which roster spots to scout, the other is developing those players.
I'm not really sure what you mean "guys who will do well no matter ... the experience." Maybe clarify that. You pick as talented and as smart a player as you possibly can no matter what. If you don't think your coaches can do the job of developing them and you let that inflect how you scout/draft, you have MAJOR organizational issues.
I think once a team wins 3 super bowls in 4 years the coaching staff tends to get plucked for other teams. We can all agree this happened to us. So, I would say it is a fair opinion that the lack of players who "stick" on our roster has less to do with the one constant on this team(the GM) and more to do with the younger more inexperienced coaches trying to develop these players who don't make it.
I am sure Belichick had confidence in the guys he promoted but lets not pretend these guys could step in and replace men who have coached with BB for years and been in more dog fights, and won championships. There is a learning curve for these younger coaches and imo this has had more to do with failed draft picks then the GM who built a dynasty.
1.) Yes it could.
2.) I've said time and again 99% of coaching has nothing to do with the game, but how you a.) develop, b.) coach, and c.) motivate/focus your players.
Agree, and is why I think the departure of many coaches has more to do with a slower development of young players.
In terms of palyers "making it" or "not" it is crucial, and by far is the most important aspect in what makes a good coach. Read the coaching books by Belichik, and others. Not many people actually spend time discussing strategies ... they spend most of their time discussing how to get players to execute.
GM's jobs are to fill a roster. Scouts jobs are to locate talent in college that could help do that. The deficiencies of the roster are communicated between the head coach, coaching staff, and the GM himself along with Pro-Personell, (who have an idea about the contractual plans up ahead).
3.) Scouts go get the best guys they can. Whether you are collecting talented players or getting guys to fit what you are doing is a whole different argument. BPA (the myth of myths) doesn't exist. A roster and its needs do, and basic philosphies do as well.
I'm not sure how to guage the loss of Mangini or Crennel. When I look to critique an organization for failing to draft good players, I'd criticize the scouts. When I look to criticize development I'd look at positional coaches.
When most players BB selects are considered to be top prospects but don't make it on our championship caliber team, is it the GM's fault or the coaches fault for failing to develop these prospects? I understand there are a few reaches involved(Wilson and Harmon etc) but as Texas Pat alludes to in his OP of this thread, these other guys looked good and were in fact fine prospects at the time.
There are schisms in both.
Magini, as you allude to, was the DBs coach until the one season where he was the full blown coordinator. NE did a much better job incorporating DBs then. Since then merry go round of Joel Collier from 2006-2007. Dom Capers in 2008. Finally, Josh Boyer from 2009-2011 (he is now the CBs coach after a "demotion" or re-delegation (depending on how you look at it) where Brian Flores became the Safeties Coach.
In terms of player development, I think you would be hard pressed (as much at it hurts to say it) to state that any of these positional coaches have done as well as Mangini. From 2000-2004 he was the DBs coach, and New England had this knack for plugging anyone in and getting good results.
With a guy like RAC who is the longest tenured coach in the NFL I am sure it was a bit easier to develop young coaches, which in turn would make it easier to develop young players(draft picks) Mangini learned from RAC and BB(he used to sleep on BB's couch) and after he was gone we lost guys with culture on the coaching staff. Guys who learned from guys who won titles.
It's a little more cloudy in the Thomas Dimitrioff/Jon Robinson split. On the one hand, I think Dimitrioff had a better handle on defensive talent. This includes all of the defense. A lot is made of Seymour/Warren being high selections that the new staff hasn't had, but Dimitrioff would dig out real, good players that made New England so good, Asante Samuel (4th), Mike Wright (UDFA), solid role players like Eugene Wilson, and value depth guys like Randall Gay.
NE just seems to miss and miss in those spots now. The middle has been eaten out of the pie, so to speak.
But, I am a much bigger fan of how Robinson has scouted offensive players than Dimitrioff. New England couldn't wish a decent TE, and if the young WRs now stick with the team, it will be a huge improvement over Dimitrioff who can claim a couple of decent picks like Graham, but really a legacy of stunning offensive busts like Maroney and Chad Jackson, to dissapointments like Watson.
I think the real thing missing ws the draw down and retirement of Larry Cook, who is still with the team as a "consultant" but was hitting home runs early on. Jarvis Green in the 4th? Thank you very much. Deion Branch and David Givens in the same draft? Every day and twice on Sunday, man.
I agree, and a few others. Even losing a strength and conditioning coach like Mike Woiceck( 6 super bowl rings between Pats and Cowboys) hurts. My agenda here is to get the BB is a bad GM crowd to realize there is so much more going into a young player doing well for a football team then whether or not he is a talent. They are all talented. They just don't all make it.