Day1, strong safety and kudos to me

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Day1, strong safety and kudos to me

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

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    Hey Z, do you think the loss of RAC and then Mangini could have had a negative effect on the development of defensive players over the course of the rebuild? Or does it all fall back on a players talent level and the GM should pick the guys who will do well no matter what kind of experience the coaching staff has?

    Maybe coaching matters in regards to "hitting" on drafted players.....

     

     

    HEy sorry about the time getting back at you, I've been real busy lately. 

     I think once a team wins 3 super bowls in 4 years the coaching staff tends to get plucked for other teams. We can all agree this happened to us.

    Brain drain man. NE had a case of it. BB has been trying to replace coaches. Personally, I think he is spread thin. NE has the smallest coaching staff in the NFL. He does, in my opinion, need to realize this and delegate more. Especially as he gets older.

    So, I would say it is a fair opinion that the lack of players who "stick" on our roster has less to do with the one constant on this team(the GM) and more to do with the younger more inexperienced coaches trying to develop these players who don't make it.

    Hmm. IS this a protect BB thread now? Look the guy is one of the best ever. Sorry to say, as HC and GM any of the problems you are coming up with here ultimately fall on his shoulders no matter what. If his coaches aren't coaching players, he should replace them. He should also step in (which he does) and give those players personal attention. If his scouts are letting him down, he should replace them too. 

    And no, that would assume that other teams have polished these terrible players. There is not a shelf life for talent other than age. Players aren't a bundt cake where you get one go, and it doesn't rise in the oven it's never going to rise.

    Most of the players NE has brought in that haven't worked have been duds, much like it is with every team right? Not many players that "bust" for a team go on to another place to suddenly blossom. When it happens it is rare.

    I am sure Belichick had confidence in the guys he promoted but lets not pretend these guys could step in and replace men who have coached with BB for years and been in more dog fights, and won championships. There is a learning curve for these younger coaches and imo this has had more to do with failed draft picks then the GM who built a dynasty.

    I disagree. But we can leave that at that. Chad Jackson, Meriweather, Maroney, et al, are just bad players. 

     

    When most players BB selects are considered to be top prospects but don't make it on our championship caliber team, is it the GM's fault or the coaches fault for failing to develop these prospects?

    IT depends. Just because they are considered top prospects doesn't mean they are. The proof is in the pudding. If BB or his staff are having trouble bringing players along, then New England is not as well coached as reputation has it. If the players are not good, then like everyone else, they make drafting mistakes. 

    I understand there are a few reaches involved(Wilson and Harmon etc) but as Texas Pat alludes to in his OP of this thread, these other guys looked good and were in fact fine prospects at the time.

    Yeah they did, haha. I loved Chung, lol. I think some people thought they would all be available a bit later. But for the most part, they were decent prospects.

    So what. BB missed on some guys. It wasn't his finest hour. If you are telling me that the positional coach failed BB, then BB should seriously spend some time of his own with these kids, because Chung/Butler/Brace were a huge draft pick and dollar investment. If the player is sinking he can always pull him away.  

    With a guy like RAC who is the longest tenured coach in the NFL I am sure it was a bit easier to develop young coaches, which in turn would make it easier to develop young players(draft picks) Mangini learned from RAC and BB(he used to sleep on BB's couch) and after he was gone we lost guys with culture on the coaching staff. Guys who learned from guys who won titles.

    OK, NE definitely had brain drain. I'm still missing the narrative though, where this makes all their selections great, and absolves their GM and scouts from any blame. 

    I agree, and a few others. Even losing a strength and conditioning coach like Mike Woiceck( 6 super bowl rings between Pats and Cowboys) hurts. My agenda here is to get the BB is a bad GM crowd to realize there is so much more going into a young player doing well for a football team then whether or not he is a talent. They are all talented. They just don't all make it.

    One, I think that is a bad way of voicing it. It's like saying the Jets' selection of Gholston was great.... but just blaming their coaches because he bombed. It was just a bad selection. 

    That's a bad way of going about the whole argument. Just leave the argument alone. Ignore them. Anyone who truly thinks BB is a bad GM is entitled to their opinion,  but I really wouldn't buy it, or entertain a long conversation about it either.

    I can sit here, say BB has had a rough go of it, and also maintain he is one of the best GMs in the game. Don't fall for false dilemmas. The number of succeses that go into building a champion are so huge, you can be truly great and still miss. 

    Cripes ... the last two playoff losses BB took he was missing the super-mega-all-pro TE he drafed to freak injuries. If Gronk is in there, and NE wins, then all of sudden he is back being the best GM. But Gronk breaks his arm in a freak accident, and suddenly BB is the worst? I wouldn't buy that if someone plated it with gold and sold it to me for a nickel.

    It's about as preposterous as saying TB is the guy holding NE back from a championship ... which I also won't buy.

    BB is a fine GM. He had a bad run for a little bit.He has had problems, which we all know about, hitting on defensive backs. Much, much more of that has to do with scouting, some with scouting profiles and philisophies (IMHO), some of it is scouting turnover, in my opinion, more than coaching turnover. A coach gets a player prepared to play ... he can't turn garbage into starters. He can develop someone who has raw ability and maximize that ... but being realistic ... most of the players NE has missed (like every other team in the NFL too) just were not NFL caliber minds. 

     




     




     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Eldunker. Show Eldunker's posts

    Re: Day1, strong safety and kudos to me

    "kudos to me"

    Hope you got enough to satiate youself.  LOL.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Day1, strong safety and kudos to me

    In response to Eldunker's comment:

    "kudos to me"

    Hope you got enough to satiate youself.  LOL.



    I'm a comedian, sorry you don't "get it."

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Day1, strong safety and kudos to me

    Zbellino, I agree no matter the problems they fall on BB's shoulders but at the same time when you are replacing so many proven coaches you will have what I would call an acceptable decline.

    As you just said and I agree with coaches are responsible for player development and motivation. Now certainly BB is responsible for missing on guys and some guys were not going to make it, but I wanted to voice my disagreement with the notion that it is because the GM isn't good at his job.

    He has missed on corner backs but we have changed CB coaches a few times in the process of replacing Mangini. So yes we may have taken some bad players but we may have taken some players that needed better development.

    In short I am not trying to deny blame to BB but would rather point out that BB and his coaching staff(due to the cupboards being raided) deserve to shoulder as much or more blame then BB the GM (In regard to missing on draft picks)

    I think he is one of the best at both duties, and we should thank our lucky stars that Kraft was smart enough to push for him and ultimately give up a 1st rd pick for him. He built a dynasty for N.E by acquiring great players and coaching them to championships.

     

        







    "Defense Wins Championships"
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Day1, strong safety and kudos to me

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

    Zbellino, I agree no matter the problems they fall on BB's shoulders but at the same time when you are replacing so many proven coaches you will have what I would call an acceptable decline.

    As you just said and I agree with coaches are responsible for player development and motivation. Now certainly BB is responsible for missing on guys and some guys were not going to make it, but I wanted to voice my disagreement with the notion that it is because the GM isn't good at his job.

    He has missed on corner backs but we have changed CB coaches a few times in the process of replacing Mangini. So yes we may have taken some bad players but we may have taken some players that needed better development.

    In short I am not trying to deny blame to BB but would rather point out that BB and his coaching staff(due to the cupboards being raided) deserve to shoulder as much or more blame then BB the GM (In regard to missing on draft picks)

    I think he is one of the best at both duties, and we should thank our lucky stars that Kraft was smart enough to push for him and ultimately give up a 1st rd pick for him. He built a dynasty for N.E by acquiring great players and coaching them to championships.

     

        







    "Defense Wins Championships"



    You know, you really are a troll..trying to blame Belichick for players not developing, drafting the wrong guys and ruining this offense..defense..special teams. And I taste a bit of Parcells love/credit going on with you too. Next thing you'll do is start giving Brady credit for some of the team's success over the last decade, when we all know it was the play of our safeties (Patrick Chung for the most part).

    Shameful

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from nyjetssuc. Show nyjetssuc's posts

    Re: Day1, strong safety and kudos to me


    Semi-pro GM's..LMFAO...it's supposed to be F-U-N guys...you'll enjoy it more if you keep it informal and fun...if anyone here was really good at picking players on the basis of Draft sites and 60 second snipets of a college players greatest hits there'd be a million applicants for each teams scouting department....if you have to measure your self worth by how great an evaluator of football talent you are, and you don't do that for a living, methinks  you need to regroup...and even if you do that for a living, egads, get some advice from Stuart Smalley

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from nyjetssuc. Show nyjetssuc's posts

    Re: Day1, strong safety and kudos to me

    In response to nyjetssuc's comment:


    Semi-pro GM's..LMFAO...it's supposed to be F-U-N guys...you'll enjoy it more if you keep it informal and fun...if anyone here was really good at picking players on the basis of Draft sites and 60 second snipets of a college players greatest hits there'd be a million applicants for each teams scouting department....if you have to measure your self worth by how great an evaluator of football talent you are, and you don't do that for a living, methinks  you need to regroup...and even if you do that for a living, egads, get some advice from Stuart Smalley

     




     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Day1, strong safety and kudos to me

    In response to mthurl's comment:

    You know, you really are a troll..trying to blame Belichick for players not developing, drafting the wrong guys and ruining this offense..defense..special teams. And I taste a bit of Parcells love/credit going on with you too. Next thing you'll do is start giving Brady credit for some of the team's success over the last decade, when we all know it was the play of our safeties (Patrick Chung for the most part).

    Shameful



    Exactly, that guy who drafted Brady must have been a pretty bright guy.  Oh wait, that doesn't fit the narrative, lets just not give him credit for that...

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Eldunker. Show Eldunker's posts

    Re: Day1, strong safety and kudos to me

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    In response to Eldunker's comment:

     

    "kudos to me"

    Hope you got enough to satiate youself.  LOL.

     



    I'm a comedian, sorry you don't "get it."

     



    Keep your day job.

    If you have one.

    The clever joke was mine, Stuart Smalley. 

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Day1, strong safety and kudos to me

    Brilliant job pulling images off google, amazing use of an outdated reference, you don't need to pat yourself on your back I'll do it for you.   You're truly the funniest person you know, if it wasn't for you nobody would be laughing at your jokes.     I'm self congratulatory the way Steven Colbert is, only I've been doing it much longer.  You'd be hard pressed to find a poster who admits to being wrong as much as me, it's more rare than a Megalodon sighting.     Also I tend to dabble in sarcasm and hyperbole, these are all big words so you'll need to check your dictionary and come back in a while to respond.  Bye.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Eldunker. Show Eldunker's posts

    Re: Day1, strong safety and kudos to me

    Swing and a miss, last word queen.  Next time try leveraging your awesome humor and self proclaimed intelligance.  And try not to use those hyperboles on yourself.  Thats where you really get tripped up.  

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Day1, strong safety and kudos to me

    In response to Eldunker's comment:

    Swing and a miss, last word queen.  Next time try leveraging your awesome humor and self proclaimed intelligance.  And try not to use those hyperboles on yourself.  Thats where you really get tripped up.  



    You mispelled intelligence, good work.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Day1, strong safety and kudos to me

    easy Woz. your not yourself today (or yesterday). you nursing an injury or something?

    why does this board, including you, get so testy if some one has some criticism for the Pats?

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Day1, strong safety and kudos to me

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

     

    He has missed on corner backs but we have changed CB coaches a few times in the process of replacing Mangini. So yes we may have taken some bad players but we may have taken some players that needed better development.

    In short I am not trying to deny blame to BB but would rather point out that BB and his coaching staff(due to the cupboards being raided) deserve to shoulder as much or more blame then BB the GM (In regard to missing on draft picks)

    "Defense Wins Championships"



    I disagree. How many of the players have gone on to be successful elsewhere? If it were a coaching issue (like it was with Pete Carroll who made losers out of eventual HOF caliber guys like Bruschi, McGinest, Law, et al) then you should be able to get me a list of 5 or so guys that didn't work here, and did somewhere else (like Vrabel, in reverse, for instance, that was a coaching problem as Pitt didn't know how to utilize that talent).  

    Bill is one of the best at both. But he has been better as a coach than a GM. As a coach, I think he is all time great. As a GM really just one of the best of his generation. 

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Day1, strong safety and kudos to me

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    In response to mthurl's comment:

     

    You know, you really are a troll..trying to blame Belichick for players not developing, drafting the wrong guys and ruining this offense..defense..special teams. And I taste a bit of Parcells love/credit going on with you too. Next thing you'll do is start giving Brady credit for some of the team's success over the last decade, when we all know it was the play of our safeties (Patrick Chung for the most part).

    Shameful

     



    Exactly, that guy who drafted Brady must have been a pretty bright guy.  Oh wait, that doesn't fit the narrative, lets just not give him credit for that...

     



    That's basically the only way you can boil it down to BB being a "bad" general manager. By excluding his biggest hit. 

    I don't care who was in the draft room (though the story is overstated here) that guy, like all the scouts, was hired by BB, and retained by BB, and BB used the information that guy gave him to make the selection as he does with every other selection. 

    Bill doesn't go through pages of selections ... he gets a list and some dossiers and works with people who actually go on visits through pages of candidates. 

    If you give him credit for the misses give him credit for the hits ... AND vice versa, as I see happening in this thread. When BB hits, it's great ... when he misses it's also his responsibility ultimately. 

     
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