Deep Threat?
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Re: Deep Threat?
posted at 3/3/2012 11:20 AM EST
- Rocky
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Re: Deep Threat?
posted at 3/3/2012 12:31 PM EST
- Rocky
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Re: Deep Threat?
posted at 3/3/2012 12:54 PM EST
- seattlepat70
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In Response to Re: Deep Threat?:While I agree with the notion that Brady isn't all that great going deep, the presence of a deep threat that dictates coverage is what we need. Hell, a deep threat isn't the right way to put it, we need a WR that can be affective outside the numbers with the ability to get separation and go deep. Right now, defenses can pack the middle of the field and play one safety deep on us with pure man across the board( think Steelers game), stuff the run and bump our WR's and TE's going over the middle. ....
Posted by GadisRKO
i agree in theory that the offense could benefit from wide out options. i am just not sure if it makes a difference.
i hope i am wrong but i observe that he may be turning into a bledsoe who just wants to throw bullets all over the place; on the other hand may have difficulty throwing lobs to the sideline that require touch. tb has not been throwing a lot of passes that require touch. only times is see him attempt lobs are the 30-40 yard incompletions.
most memorable recent short lob was the intereception to the right. i think it was during the loss to the jets. -
Re: Deep Threat?
posted at 3/3/2012 1:15 PM EST
- thejoshuatree28
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In Response to Re: Deep Threat?:In Response to Re: Deep Threat? : Except for B Johnson mthurl not a single receiver you mentioned was considered a deep threat. All of them typically worked the 5-20yrd range which is considered the short-intermediate range. Givens and Patten though were considered outside threats. I think that's the type of WR we need. A intermediate-deep range WR (10-30yrd range) who can work the sidelines. Which isn't always a burner that you hit 30+yrds down field
Posted by PatsEng
This. When your three leading recivers are middle of the field guys it kinda clogs the middle of field. I'll tell you that no teams were really afriad of branch on the outside this year. We need as another thread said a branch 2.0 somebody that can seperate in the long-intermeddiate range on the out side of the field to roll at least a saftey off to there side of the field -
Re: Deep Threat?
posted at 3/3/2012 1:39 PM EST
- mthurl
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In Response to Re: Deep Threat?:In Response to Re: Deep Threat? : Except for B Johnson mthurl not a single receiver you mentioned was considered a deep threat. All of them typically worked the 5-20yrd range which is considered the short-intermediate range. Givens and Patten though were considered outside threats. I think that's the type of WR we need. A intermediate-deep range WR (10-30yrd range) who can work the sidelines. Which isn't always a burner that you hit 30+yrds down field
Posted by PatsEng
None of them were text book "deep threats", but they all were young and could run - they all had quickness and got separation as well. No none of them were Larry Fitzgerald (who runs a 4.5 on a good day) or Randy Moss, but you could send any of them deep. I can recall the old Branch blazing past safeties in his prime and Patten getting behind the entire Colt's secondary. Givens would use his size deep. But I agree with you, they weren't burners, but guys that were young and more intermediate threats, that got separation consistently (they couldn't be covered during that Carolina Super Bowl). -
Re: Deep Threat?
posted at 3/3/2012 1:55 PM EST
- prolate0spheroid
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In Response to Re: Deep Threat?:In Response to Re: Deep Threat? : None of them were text book "deep threats", but they all were young and could run - they all had quickness and got separation as well. No none of them were Larry Fitzgerald (who runs a 4.5 on a good day) or Randy Moss, but you could send any of them deep. I can recall the old Branch blazing past safeties in his prime and Patten getting behind the entire Colt's secondary. Givens would use his size deep. But I agree with you, they weren't burners, but guys that were young and more intermediate threats, that got separation consistently (they couldn't be covered during that Carolina Super Bowl).
Posted by mthurlPatten was pretty fast, though. He may not have had Bethel Johnson speed, but he could get open down the field and was much more effective than Johnson ever was. Look at the 18.2 yard per reception average in 2004--beats even Johnson's average!David Givens 56 874 15.6 50 3 David Patten 44 800 18.2 48 7 Deion Branch 35 454 13.0 26 4 Daniel Graham 30 364 12.1 48 7 Patrick Pass 28 215 7.7 22 0 Kevin Faulk 26 248 9.5 31 1 Troy Brown 17 184 10.8 22 1 Christian Fauria 16 195 12.2 25 2 Corey Dillon 15 103 6.9 20 1 Bethel Johnson 10 174 17.4 48 1 Jed Weaver 8 93 11.6 25 0 Dan Klecko 3 18 6.0 11 0 Benjamin Watson 2 16 8.0 14 0 Mike Vrabel 2 3 1.5 2 2 Rabih Abdullah 1 9 9.0 9 0 -
Re: Deep Threat?
posted at 3/3/2012 1:58 PM EST
- TrueChamp
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Patten was a play maker! Threw, caught and ran for a td in the same game....on the anniversary of Sweetness doing the same! Awesome! -
Re: Deep Threat?
posted at 3/3/2012 2:44 PM EST
- anonymis
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In Response to Re: Deep Threat?:Trading Welker would be giving up a hundred catches a season. Give Welker a fair offer maybe 18-20 for 3 years. Personally I don't want Brady throwing it down field all the time. I am of the camp we need to commit to the run more then throw it down field.
Posted by Philskiw1
meaning his replacement would only get 20 catches a season? i hope not.... -
Re: Deep Threat?
posted at 3/3/2012 3:20 PM EST
- neackerwitz
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In Response to Re: Deep Threat?:In Response to Re: Deep Threat? : In 2010 under McDaniels and playing a full year with a stable QB he was 2nd in 20+yrd and 40+yrd recs (23, 9) only Wallace had more (26, 10) so I would say that even though he's not a traditional deep threat he would force teams to respect his abilities and place a S deeper to prevent his big play ability. This coming at a cost that will most likely be much lower then a 1st and a deal in the range of C. Johnson
Posted by PatsEng
I would assume that most of those big receptions were short passes with YAC, no? -
Re: Deep Threat?
posted at 3/3/2012 4:29 PM EST
- PatsEng
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In Response to Re: Deep Threat?:In Response to Re: Deep Threat? : I would assume that most of those big receptions were short passes with YAC, no?
Posted by neackerwitzhonestly I don't remember but either way the effect is the same. Whether it's YAC ability of speed to get separation deep they need to have a S leaning towards that sideline and set back a bit deeper to prevent the big play. I believe most of the passes came in the 10-20 yrd range for Lloyd and he made plays on them. -
Re: Deep Threat?
posted at 3/3/2012 4:32 PM EST
- PatsEng
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In Response to Re: Deep Threat?:In Response to Re: Deep Threat? : None of them were text book "deep threats", but they all were young and could run - they all had quickness and got separation as well. No none of them were Larry Fitzgerald (who runs a 4.5 on a good day) or Randy Moss, but you could send any of them deep. I can recall the old Branch blazing past safeties in his prime and Patten getting behind the entire Colt's secondary. Givens would use his size deep. But I agree with you, they weren't burners, but guys that were young and more intermediate threats, that got separation consistently (they couldn't be covered during that Carolina Super Bowl).
Posted by mthurlThat's what I mean though mthurl. They weren't traditional deep threats as you think of them. Most of the time they caught passes on the outside in the 10-20yrd range then made plays for YAC. That's why I say we don't need a deep threat. We could use a 10-20yr guy with good-great YAC provided they can generate separation in single coverage. That can be as effective as a speedster that just blows by CB's. Sometimes even more so as Brady is much more accurant in the 10-20yrd range then the 30+yrd range -
Deep Threat?
posted at 3/4/2012 2:30 AM EST
- ipats
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People who think Brady can't throw the deep ball are extremely ignorant. The guy is one of the best to ever play the game. It's a lower % play no matter who is chucking it. Duh! Give the guy some guys with speed on the edge who can make some plays and try and stop this offense!
I can't believe some people want to critique Brady as the problem with this team. Really? Please wake up from your dreams people! -
Re: Deep Threat?
posted at 3/5/2012 8:20 PM EST
- neackerwitz
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In Response to Deep Threat?:People who think Brady can't throw the deep ball are extremely ignorant. The guy is one of the best to ever play the game. It's a lower % play no matter who is chucking it. Duh! Give the guy some guys with speed on the edge who can make some plays and try and stop this offense! I can't believe some people want to critique Brady as the problem with this team. Really? Please wake up from your dreams people!
Posted by ipats
Nobody says Brady is the problem .. its when Brady doesnt play to his own strengths. The Pats won three rings throwing screens and throwing short. Lets forget about this "need for a deep threat" and get back to what made them successful to begin with. -
Re: Deep Threat?
posted at 3/5/2012 8:39 PM EST
- PatsEng
- Posts: 9137
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In Response to Deep Threat?:People who think Brady can't throw the deep ball are extremely ignorant. The guy is one of the best to ever play the game. It's a lower % play no matter who is chucking it. Duh! Give the guy some guys with speed on the edge who can make some plays and try and stop this offense! I can't believe some people want to critique Brady as the problem with this team. Really? Please wake up from your dreams people!
Posted by ipatsBrady might be the best to play the game but he is an average deep passer. There are much better deep route guys.What is Brady's strengths is diagnosing a D, finding the open receiver, and throwing accurate balls to receivers in stride in the short to intermediate range.You want to maximise Brady's strengths and those are his strengths. The best way to maximise those strengths is to get players who excel in gaining separations and working the short to intermediate routes with great YAC ability. Branch, Welker, Givens, Patten, and Gaffney all excel/excelled in gaining separation in short to intermediate routes, catching balls in stride, and all had great YAC ability. Only 1 player with speed every had great success as a deep route runner (Moss). Stallworth had limited success but given he was playing next to Moss and Welker not great productionBut then again anyone who followed Brady's career understands his strengths and weaknesses and wouldn't make ignorant statements like give the guy someone with speed and watch him go because they understand all the speed guys that never worked out (Tate, Jackson, Johnson, Price) -
Re: Deep Threat?
posted at 3/5/2012 8:49 PM EST
- TrueChamp
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In Response to Re: Deep Threat?:In Response to Deep Threat? : Brady might be the best to play the game but he is an average deep passer. There are much better deep route guys. What is Brady's strengths is diagnosing a D, finding the open receiver, and throwing accurate balls to receivers in stride in the short to intermediate range. You want to maximise Brady's strengths and those are his strengths. The best way to maximise those strengths is to get players who excel in gaining separations and working the short to intermediate routes with great YAC ability. Branch, Welker, Givens, Patten, and Gaffney all excel/excelled in gaining separation in short to intermediate routes, catching balls in stride, and all had great YAC ability. Only 1 player with speed every had great success as a deep route runner (Moss). Stallworth had limited success but given he was playing next to Moss and Welker not great production But then again anyone who followed Brady's career understands his strengths and weaknesses and wouldn't make ignorant statements like give the guy someone with speed and watch him go because they understand all the speed guys that never worked out (Tate, Jackson, Johnson, Price)
Posted by PatsEng
And to expand on this, utilize a running game that will make a defense commit to stopping it. Use run pass balance, and help Brady as opposed to using an open book offense in which you rely on Brady and his amazing ability alone.