defineing age in football[some players are to old,or not, in there 30,s]

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from mosseffect43. Show mosseffect43's posts

    defineing age in football[some players are to old,or not, in there 30,s]

    when is a 30+ yr old player perfect to be on the pats team,and when are they not?get away from the brooks thread.but ive heard many people say the pats need to go young.ive heard how ad thomas,or gallowway are great signings,but then there are certain other players mentioned,and the replies could be he is to old,or finished,or over the hill.the derrick brooks thing i can see his size being an issue if it has to do with the pats scheme of things,but not his age.the same with the burgess rumors.some like the idea,and some dont.I have no problem with players being in there 30,s.and we know BB dosent either.someone had mentioned a while back about troy brown comeing back,when the pats signed gallowway,and some said he was to old,or finished.they both are about the same age,plus troy played ST,and DB,and WR,and did very well,but he is to old?I know production is the main reason,but in the buc,s situation the past few years,both brooks,and gallowway were great before this past season.and burgess has had a slump in 2 years.

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/teams/stats/2008/buccaneers/index.
    html


    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/5510/index.html


    http://www.patriots.com/team/index.cfm?ac=playerbio&bio=142

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/5215/index.html
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: defineing age in football[some players are to old,or not, in there 30,s]

    Moss,

    When you say 30's do you mean 30-31 or 34-35 or 37-38?

    The answer is based on the individual athlete, the position, the type of player,
    the type of role.

    Like you allude to it is personal evaluationas well.

    I might think a guy is done, BB could think he is gold, and another fan could think he is in between.

    Burgess is 31 at a spot where 34 is usually the cutoff. Greg Ellis was very effective last season, but will be 34. Jason Taylor was totally ineffective last season, suffered a traumatic injury that some people can't walk after, and will be 35.

    Short shelf life, Burgess is easily the most interesting.

    RB, I pray for rain on the Taylor deal. It is the shortest shelf life of every position. But for some reason athletes and pundits think he has the speed and quickness left to be an very effective back. I didn't watch him play last season so I could only weigh in with stats, which are subjective in a team sport.

    CB has a  long shelf life. Tons of corners play well into their late 30's. As long as Springs isn't asked to be the ace, he will bring a solid vet presence at an affordable price. Deion Sanders, Darrell Green, Eric Allen, Eugene Robinson, Aeneas Williams, Rod Woodson, and a long list of guys at CB who played well at or past 36 IIRC. The fact that Springs' deal is essentially a one year $4.3 million dollar deal, with two non-guaranteed seasons shows the kind of sense it makes.

    Ronde Barber is 34 and I would be surprised if he has a bad season, or was out of the NFL at 35.

    Quality corners but not pro-bowl corners are gettting $7-8 mil per in this league.

    If he can play one more good season at 34 he is worth it. If he gives them two, it was a steal. I doubt he sees the third year of the deal, and depending on player development, maybe the second.

    But a 34 year old corner and a 34 year old outside linebacker are two different animals.

    Same with Galloway and Brown. WR tend to play well into their thirties.

    Flankers who rely on jumping and pure speed can play much longer (Ellard, Bruce, Galloway).

    Slot guys who also return kicks and rely on quickness (which fades much quicker) tend to age faster than the average WR. Troy was cooked when he was 35. When Galloway was 35 he had a 1072 yards, seven TDs, and a 17 YPC, in some respects a better season that Troy Brown's best.

    It is just how they age and the body type that counts and traumatic injury.

    I mean Marvin Harrison is cooked because his knee was baked in a hit. If he doesn't take that injury he is still likely a very effective player at this point.

    This may sound nuts, but honestly. Wes Welker is 28, Randy Moss is 32. There is a significant chance that Randy is still playing at a high level (not HOF like now) when he is 38 and that Welker is out of the NFL.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnHannahrulz. Show JohnHannahrulz's posts

    Re: defineing age in football[some players are to old,or not, in there 30,s]

    One minor point ZB, Springs was never, nor will he ever, be as good as Sanders, Woodson, Williams or definitely Green. His pro Bowl season  was a decade ago. Springs is a potential injury waiting to happen and given the Pats play LCB/RCB do you really want this guy covering T.O. ? I see Springs as starting CB only by default and will be disappointed if one of Butler, Wheatley or Wilhite doesn't wrestle away the starting job by mid-season.

    Kind of a different story with Galloway. He, obviously, won't get as many touches or looks as Moss and Welker, but he can stretch the defenses enough to make the intermediate passes more effective. Like Gaffney or Stallworth he only needs to get 35-45 touches for the Pats offense to be effective. I also agree on Welker the short  routes are going to kill him. He takes the hardest licks of anyone on the Pats offense. 
     
    As for Taylor his carries were limited the last little while by the presence of Jones-Drew as running mate with the Jags. So I don`t think he`s taken the beating that LT and LJ  have; Plus the Pats have a running back by commitee system so he won`t get killed being the feature back.

    As for the LBs I`ll just say this: Mayo is the type of player great linebacking corps are built around. If he stays healthy he could be the best ILB the Pats have ever had (Tippet being OLB). Some one has to step up in the LB corps. We know what the Pats have with Mayo and Adalius now we have to see if Woods, Crable or Guyton can crank it up a notch.

    Much like any business a football team has turnover, how the Pats adjust to the turnover (no Hobbs or Asante....Bodden and Springs) will determine how successful they will be in the near future. Last year I though Meriweather stepped up his game in the secondary, this year as stated, some one on the roster has to step up for the LB corps.

    The  D Line looks as solid as ever

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: defineing age in football[some players are to old,or not, in there 30,s]

    What up hog.

    I never said that Springs would be a pro-bowler. But he will (if healthy) be a quality corner. Someone, unlike last year's crew, who won't get burned all the time. Those players you mention were elite, and still going to probowls late in their career.


    I think you underrate how effective Springs has been over his career. He has been a high interception player. Not a turnover machine like Ty Law, but he has a higher INT/16 games average than Green. If (really if) he can be healthy I wouldn't lose a wink sleep with him at CB in 2009.

    If he played for a better team he would have been to one or two more pro-bowls over his career.

    For instance, look at 5 time pro-bowler Charles Woodson's stats next to Shawn Springs.

    Springs 147 starts 34 INTs
    Woodson 149 starts 36 INTs

    When Woodson was young the Raiders were legit contenders. He got extra pub and went to four pro-bowls in a row.

    People could say that Taylor was not a good player because he dealt with injuries and he only made one pro-bowl. But on a more popular team he makes the pro bowl one or two more times easily. 

    The reason I am down on him is that the only RB's to be effective after 2500 carries are the top five rushers in NFL history, and none of them were Taylor's age. He has 2428 carries.

    But the point both players' careers make is that you cannot use pro-bowls as a gauge of actual talent in all scenarios. Players from the Seahawks and Jags won't get the consideration that players from the Steelers or Pats will.

    Let's hope both guys can stay healthy and productive, and NE benefits.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnHannahrulz. Show JohnHannahrulz's posts

    Re: defineing age in football[some players are to old,or not, in there 30,s]

    Really, You want to compare Darrell Green to Springs. I respect you're opinion ZB, you know that. I thought we were talking Rod Woodson, Darrell Green and Deion Sanders. You can't say, with a straight face, that Springs is better than any of those DBs. It's not even that close. We are talking about HOFers and not just # of pro-bowls. Alot people must of thought those guys were good enough to make the hall. Sanders took his man totally out of the play, and when he was in his prime QBs/OCs did not want to throw to his side of the field (less INTs). Woodson would crush guys that caught the ball in addition to INTs. Green gets bonus points for being the fastest player in the NFL for about 12 years. Springs is servicable, but nowhere near elite. I like Bodden more than I like Springs, like I said one of the young uns will have to inevitably step up (either in nickel and dime or as eventual starter) for the pass D to make marked improvement.

    What concerns me is that alot of posters thought Deltha O Neal was "servicable" last year. Springs is past his prime and was never NEVER as good as Law. Springs will be better than O Neal, but some young has to step up sooner or later and I don't care who it is....
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from mosseffect43. Show mosseffect43's posts

    Re: defineing age in football[some players are to old,or not, in there 30,s]

    [QUOTE]Moss, When you say 30's do you mean 30-31 or 34-35 or 37-38? The answer is based on the individual athlete, the position, the type of player, the type of role. Like you allude to it is personal evaluationas well. I might think a guy is done, BB could think he is gold, and another fan could think he is in between. Burgess is 31 at a spot where 34 is usually the cutoff. Greg Ellis was very effective last season, but will be 34. Jason Taylor was totally ineffective last season, suffered a traumatic injury that some people can't walk after, and will be 35. Short shelf life, Burgess is easily the most interesting. RB, I pray for rain on the Taylor deal. It is the shortest shelf life of every position. But for some reason athletes and pundits think he has the speed and quickness left to be an very effective back. I didn't watch him play last season so I could only weigh in with stats, which are subjective in a team sport. CB has a  long shelf life. Tons of corners play well into their late 30's. As long as Springs isn't asked to be the ace, he will bring a solid vet presence at an affordable price. Deion Sanders, Darrell Green, Eric Allen, Eugene Robinson, Aeneas Williams, Rod Woodson, and a long list of guys at CB who played well at or past 36 IIRC. The fact that Springs' deal is essentially a one year $4.3 million dollar deal, with two non-guaranteed seasons shows the kind of sense it makes. Ronde Barber is 34 and I would be surprised if he has a bad season, or was out of the NFL at 35. Quality corners but not pro-bowl corners are gettting $7-8 mil per in this league. If he can play one more good season at 34 he is worth it. If he gives them two, it was a steal. I doubt he sees the third year of the deal, and depending on player development, maybe the second. But a 34 year old corner and a 34 year old outside linebacker are two different animals. Same with Galloway and Brown. WR tend to play well into their thirties. Flankers who rely on jumping and pure speed can play much longer (Ellard, Bruce, Galloway). Slot guys who also return kicks and rely on quickness (which fades much quicker) tend to age faster than the average WR. Troy was cooked when he was 35. When Galloway was 35 he had a 1072 yards, seven TDs, and a 17 YPC, in some respects a better season that Troy Brown's best. It is just how they age and the body type that counts and traumatic injury. I mean Marvin Harrison is cooked because his knee was baked in a hit. If he doesn't take that injury he is still likely a very effective player at this point. This may sound nuts, but honestly. Wes Welker is 28, Randy Moss is 32. There is a significant chance that Randy is still playing at a high level (not HOF like now) when he is 38 and that Welker is out of the NFL.
    Posted by zbellino[/QUOTE] zb-good points.but with troy,i dont think he was cooked,maybe slowing down,but at 35 he was mostly being used as a DB,and doing it well.so when they show his stats for the year he was playing DB,his receiver stats looked non-existence.and there are many players who had a down year,and are refered to being finished,but every year before there down year had looked good.maybe haveing that down year was just a fluke.maybe they rebound the following year.its the year after year failures that everyone needs to worry about.haveing one bad year shouldnt mean a player is finished.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: defineing age in football[some players are to old,or not, in there 30,s]

    I never said Springs was better than Woodson, Green or Sanders.

    And I don't think he was better than Ty Law. All I said was that saying he had one pro-bowl and therefore was not a very good corner was wrong.

    Shawn Springs is one of the ten best corners of his era. And I am saying that if he is healthy he will be a solid corner. That is all. I won't lose any sleep.

    Frankly, I think people are too concerned about a player who will likely be the "utility" DB for this team by the end of the season. He is here to play some nickel, play some safety and play some L/RCB, and bring a veteran presence (and some brains) to the backfield. Otis Smith was older, more injury prone, was never as good, and performed this role very well at the ages of 35-37.

    Deltha O'neal was a completely different situation. He was a player who was fantastic when he was younger, but was terrible his last two seasons, and fans were hoping that he would rejuvinate himself here. He was a terrific athlete that never learned to be a smart athlete. He lost a step when he was 29 (like all CB type athletes do around 30) and was never smart enough to compensate.

    IIRC many posters also noted this, including myself, that he was a last second bargain. Any player who is benched then cut by a terrible defense like the Bengals is suspect.

    Springs has been a very good corner who was never benched and was frequently matched on the best WR on the opposing team. His use was obviated by the emergence of a Carlos Rogers as a cheaper starter.

    He is a stopgap, but among league scouts the concensus is that he still can cover. Deltha O'neal was washed two years before he ever donned the flying elvis, and the concensus from scouts was that his time was up. 

    I am excited about Bodden, but like Springs he is one year rental player. If he plays to his potential, he will get priced right out of the uniform.

    This entire defense rests, solely, at this point on the emergence of those three young corners. NE won't have the flexibilty to play in the corner market in years to come, so if Wheatley, Wilhite and Butler can't emerge, it could be rough going.

    I am hopeful based on BB's record as one of the premier talent evaluators and developers at the CB position.

    But with rental players waiting for youth sets the stakes.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from mosseffect43. Show mosseffect43's posts

    Re: defineing age in football[some players are to old,or not, in there 30,s]

    [QUOTE]when is a 30+ yr old player perfect to be on the pats team,and when are they not?get away from the brooks thread.but ive heard many people say the pats need to go young.ive heard how ad thomas,or gallowway are great signings,but then there are certain other players mentioned,and the replies could be he is to old,or finished,or over the hill.the derrick brooks thing i can see his size being an issue if it has to do with the pats scheme of things,but not his age.the same with the burgess rumors.some like the idea,and some dont.I have no problem with players being in there 30,s.and we know BB dosent either.someone had mentioned a while back about troy brown comeing back,when the pats signed gallowway,and some said he was to old,or finished.they both are about the same age,plus troy played ST,and DB,and WR,and did very well,but he is to old?I know production is the main reason,but in the buc,s situation the past few years,both brooks,and gallowway were great before this past season.and burgess has had a slump in 2 years. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/teams/stats/2008/buccaneers/index. html http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/5510/index.html http://www.patriots.com/team/index.cfm?ac=playerbio&bio=142 http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/5215/index.html
    Posted by mosseffect43[/QUOTE] here is another 31 yr old player why they picked him over pisa is beyond me,and to say he was just signed to play on the special teams only is crazy,not when he was a leading starter on another team.and we can throw the size,and weight thing out the window.for if a player was to small to fit in the pats system.they wouldnt even consider to bring them in for a look,let alone sign them.

    http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/2009/05/ linebacker_pari.html
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from mosseffect43. Show mosseffect43's posts

    Re: defineing age in football[some players are to old,or not, in there 30,s]

    [QUOTE]here is another 31 yr old player why they picked him over pisa is beyond me.and we can throw the size thing out the window.for if a player was to small to fit in the pats system.they wouldnt even consider to bring them in for a look,let alone sign them. http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/2009/05/ linebacker_pari.html
    Posted by mosseffect43[/QUOTE] the only good thing i see is,he has gotten better as he has gotten older.

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/6152/index.html
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: defineing age in football[some players are to old,or not, in there 30,s]

    Lenon was a depth signing.

    It is obvious that Tinoisamoa's contract demands are probably more than NE wants. There is no question he has a little more value than Lenon. But NE probably wasn't interested in a starter. Maybe they are happy with Bruschi/Guyton?

    Lenon didn't get better, he switched from LOLB in the Packers' scheme to MLB in the Lions' scheme. It brings more responsibility, but it also brings more opportunity for tackles.


     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: defineing age in football[some players are to old,or not, in there 30,s]

    Moss.. we forget, we have seen players blow out in their 20's, too!

    All in all, IMHO, it purely depends on the athlete, their body type and whether or not they have had a healthy career going into their 30's.  As was pointed out by ZB, BB has the knack for picking out the good ones in their 30's, doesn't he?  We, as fans, think the player is too old and then we are blown away by their play.  BB saw something and took a closer look at their entire career to date and saw a fit.  As much as we like to see a player last for years with the Pats, we understand age has its limitations.  The bottom line, the Pats, in their plug and play system, keep churning out competitive teams to our delight.  There are many fans who wish their teams could be this competitive for such a stretch.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Paul_K. Show Paul_K's posts

    Re: defineing age in football[some players are to old,or not, in there 30,s]

    30 and a broken shoulder?  Glue factory.  30 and a busted bicep?  He'll recover fine.  30 and the fattest guy on the field?  Probably low wear on the guy.  30 and a bug boy of a cornerback?  Ouch!  30 and a QB or a punter?  Hardly any wear at all!  30 and a wideout?  Depends on whether the guy instinctively makes tacklers miss.
     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share