DMac as starting FS from here on out. Thoughts?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from agill1970. Show agill1970's posts

    DMac as starting FS from here on out. Thoughts?

    Devin McCourty had a VERY good year as a rookie at corner, but hasn't been able to even remotely get back to that level thus far.  I believe he can be a good/solid second corner, so long as he has someone better opposite him and solid safeties to help bail him out.  Talib, may be the answer for the opposite corner, but that still leaves problems at safety.  Chung can't stay healthy, Wilson has great promise but is still too raw, and Gregory is pure middle road. 

    DMac at Free Safety however, with either Wilson or Chung playing Strong Safety makes for in my opinion a very sound tandem.  McCourty has the speed, size, skills, and agressive fearless tackling that could make him a great safety.  I'm of the mind that providing we can get a set of decent reliable corners (Talib and Dennard?), McCourty could be the key here and this could be a permanent move.  Is his upside higher at Safety? 

     

     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

    Re: DMac as starting FS from here on out. Thoughts?

    It was apparent to me during training camp Ebner had already established himself as the only person back there with talent, skill, brains, ability and a nose for the ball. Yet 1/2 a season in we are cycling a failed CB to Safety.  That's almost as dumb as not playing Ridley in the Super Bowl.  

    I have to believe if DMC was an undrafted free agent he would of been cut last year.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: DMac as starting FS from here on out. Thoughts?

    In response to Neal Page's comment:

    Although he looks comfortable doing it, I wouldn't. Here's why:

    1. He's still a good CB. I don't care what anyone says. The back end stability is the big reason this CB thing has seen some inconsistency.

    Yes it has and Wilson, Gregory, Chung haven't provided any stability behind the CB's. Without help overtop the CB's underneath are useless. McCourty has been our best S so far this year so if you remove him you remove any help overtop and WR's will still run free once they get behind the CB's

    2. If he is your FS, that really thins out your CB pool itself especially with Arrington with a concussion now. You could cut someone else and promote Sterling Moore off the PS, sure. That would leave him with Dennard, Talib and Cole. Cole hurt his leg as well, so you're currently sitting on 2 injured CBs with on IR.  Way too thin.

    It thins out the CB core but what about the S core? That's already thin as is. If it wasn't then they wouldn't have McCourty back there the last 2 games. Still this is your strongest argument

    3. You would have 2 Safeties who wouldn't have a role at all. It's not like Wilson or Gregory can be moved to CB.

    It's situational coverage. They would have roles in those situations. In nickle and dime packages Gregory would fit well and Wilson hasn't been been all that great so far anyways. At least not starting quality yet. He's still a rook and needs to learn but regardless once Chung comes back Wilsons going to be on the bench and subbing for him anyways so it's a moot point by you 

    McCourty is a nice luxury for BB, but it's more a second option than it is a solution, IMO.




     

    Whether you see him as a luxary or not having Dennard, Talib, and McCourty on the field at the same time is better then having one of them on the bench for a lesser player

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: DMac as starting FS from here on out. Thoughts?

    In response to tcal2-'s comment:

    It was apparent to me during training camp Ebner had already established himself as the only person back there with talent, skill, brains, ability and a nose for the ball. Yet 1/2 a season in we are cycling a failed CB to Safety.  That's almost as dumb as not playing Ridley in the Super Bowl.  

    I have to believe if DMC was an undrafted free agent he would of been cut last year.



    calling McCourty failed is just dumb tcal. McCourty has easily been the best CB we've had on the field so far and is most certainly a starting caliber player. Lets not get carried away and call him Wilson yet

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

    Re: DMac as starting FS from here on out. Thoughts?

    Did you even follow the Patriots last year Eng?  He had no ability to play the position and that carried over to this year.  Just because he's the best of our sucky DB's that doesn't by default make him good.  I'll bet you anything he doesn't get resigned when his contract expires. 

     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from agill1970. Show agill1970's posts

    Re: DMac as starting FS from here on out. Thoughts?

    In response to tcal2-'s comment:

    Did you even follow the Patriots last year Eng?  He had no ability to play the position and that carried over to this year.  Just because he's the best of our sucky DB's that doesn't by default make him good.  I'll bet you anything he doesn't get resigned when his contract expires. 




    I'll take that bet.  BB values versatility as much as anything.  The fact that he has C+ corner that can play safety at a B level (that can also play on special teams) is not something he will just let go unless DMac gets crazy and prices himself out of here.  He's smart, versatile, tough, and a very sound and reliable tackler.  No way BB says goodbye to him like he's a JAG. 

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: DMac as starting FS from here on out. Thoughts?

    I actually agree with Rusty on this one.  McCourty is a good corner.  Maybe not the Pro Bowler we thought he'd be after his rookie year, but a solid player.  The problem is he's both the best corner we've got and the best safety and he can't really play both positions at once.  If Talib works out, I think you'll see Talib and Dennard at corner with McCourty at safety.  If we had a better safety, then McCourty would stay at corner.  But given who we've got, I think BB will try to keep Wilson, McCourty, Dennard, and Talib on the field, with Arrington and Ebner the next two on.  Once Chung and Gregory are healthy, we might see McCourty come back to corner and a different mix at safety, but as long as Chung and Gregory remain injured, I expect McCourty to play a lot of safety.  

    Other guys in the mix are Cole and Martin, but I see them as deeper on the depth chart. Williams remains mostly a special teamer, I think.  

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from FrnkBnhm. Show FrnkBnhm's posts

    Re: DMac as starting FS from here on out. Thoughts?

    I doubt he is going to stay back there. Last year, after he moved there towards the end of the season due to injuries people were saying the same thing, but the Pats moved him back to CB and tried to fill the hole at safety instead (drafting Wilson and signing Gregory). 

    I think the Patriots would like to have McCourty and Talib start at CB, Gregory and Chung at S, with Dennard and Arrington as the extra corners and Wilson and Ebner as backup safeties.

    Just the impression that I get...

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: DMac as starting FS from here on out. Thoughts?

    In response to FrnkBnhm's comment:

    I doubt he is going to stay back there. Last year, after he moved there towards the end of the season due to injuries people were saying the same thing, but the Pats moved him back to CB and tried to fill the hole at safety instead (drafting Wilson and signing Gregory). 

    I think the Patriots would like to have McCourty and Talib start at CB, Gregory and Chung at S, with Dennard and Arrington as the extra corners and Wilson and Ebner as backup safeties.

    Just the impression that I get...



    I think this is what they'd like to see too.  Depends, however, on Gregory and Chung coming back and their effectiveness after they're back.  If BB is not happy with the safety play, he will move guys around and may continue to take advantage of McCourty's flexibility to play multiple positions by using him more at safety.  In their zone defense, good safety play is almost more important than good corner play.  If they go more man-to-man, then the McCourty may be at corner more. 

     

    I've always wondered why they don't try Arrington at safety.  He's a tad small maybe, but he can tackle well and he might be a better cover guy than some of the other safeties they have. 

     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from FrnkBnhm. Show FrnkBnhm's posts

    Re: DMac as starting FS from here on out. Thoughts?

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to FrnkBnhm's comment:

    I doubt he is going to stay back there. Last year, after he moved there towards the end of the season due to injuries people were saying the same thing, but the Pats moved him back to CB and tried to fill the hole at safety instead (drafting Wilson and signing Gregory). 

    I think the Patriots would like to have McCourty and Talib start at CB, Gregory and Chung at S, with Dennard and Arrington as the extra corners and Wilson and Ebner as backup safeties.

    Just the impression that I get...



    I think this is what they'd like to see too.  Depends, however, on Gregory and Chung coming back and their effectiveness after they're back.  If BB is not happy with the safety play, he will move guys around and may continue to take advantage of McCourty's flexibility to play multiple positions by using him more at safety.  In their zone defense, good safety play is almost more important than good corner play.  If they go more man-to-man, then the McCourty may be at corner more. 



    I completely agree. Personally, I like McCourty at safety. He seems to over think it when at CB, but just play football when he is back there.

    I do not think Arrington stinks as bad as some other people on this board do. I would honestly rather see McCourty as the last line of defense than any other safety on the roster (Chung, Gregory, Wilson or Ebner). 

     
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  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: DMac as starting FS from here on out. Thoughts?

    In response to agill1970's comment:

    In response to tcal2-'s comment:

    Did you even follow the Patriots last year Eng?  He had no ability to play the position and that carried over to this year.  Just because he's the best of our sucky DB's that doesn't by default make him good.  I'll bet you anything he doesn't get resigned when his contract expires. 




    I'll take that bet.  BB values versatility as much as anything.  The fact that he has C+ corner that can play safety at a B level (that can also play on special teams) is not something he will just let go unless DMac gets crazy and prices himself out of here.  He's smart, versatile, tough, and a very sound and reliable tackler.  No way BB says goodbye to him like he's a JAG. 



    " BB values versatility as much as anything.  "

    thats been the problem, versatility over ability

    why bb didnt go after pass rushers till this past draft, ditto on picking his db's versatility over ablity to stop a wr., whihc he aslo is breaking habit with talib trade. glad hes turning a new leaf.

     
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  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: DMac as starting FS from here on out. Thoughts?

    In response to Neal Page's comment:

    In response to agill1970's comment:

    Devin McCourty had a VERY good year as a rookie at corner, but hasn't been able to even remotely get back to that level thus far.  I believe he can be a good/solid second corner, so long as he has someone better opposite him and solid safeties to help bail him out. 




    Also, why did you choose the word "bail" there?  Just wondering. Did Milloy and Clay or Rodney bail out Law and Samuel?

    How about this: Any team that doesn't have efficient Safety play from week to week, the CBs won't look as good?



    Agree Russ, that is the point. We haven't had good safety nor cb play on a consistent basis, so the whole backend suffers. 

    I think mccourty is our best safety and he still iS a good corner. Yes, he has regressed, and it makes me wonder if cb is his natural position or safety? The way Dennard has been coming on. Recently, i don't see much drop off between McCourty and Dennard. Dennard and Talib make a good combo. I would like mccourtym and Talib better, but what concerns me more is the safety play than the cb play. If you are consistently giving up 20+ yard plays, and quite a few in the 30+ range where do you place blame? I have seen a few times the cb stop running because he thought he had the safety there as help,pother times on the corner himself. 

    I am going to say let's roll with McCourty at safety especially on 3rd and longs, Talib and Dennard play corner, cole in the slot, bring on Arrington in nickel. Gregory next to McCourty. 

    i think Gregory and McCourty are the 2 best coverage safeties we have...start them both...why do we need to start Chung or Wilson? McCourty is as good against the run as either of them and I think a better tackler 

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from bt33. Show bt33's posts

    Re: DMac as starting FS from here on out. Thoughts?

    while there is little doubt that the patriots haven't gotten good play from their cornerbacks over the past few years, I do think it's about time the scheme was questioned in relation to performance. from indiviudal coverage technique that involves body position; zone schemes that leave the middle vulnerable; the size of cushion and lack of jamming and aggressive play at the line (and obvioulsy blitz/disguised schemes and how those are integrated), etc., you can't ignore the overall lack of pass defense. there were several years when some of problems were seemingly buffered by forcing turnovers and playing well in the red zone, but you can't give up lots of passing yards AND fail to turn the ball over AND give up tds at a high rate in the red zone. this year they are obviously getting killed over the top and deep (though at times it seems like they're getting beat evrywhere). since samuel's departure it seems liked they've lacked that really solid, shutdown cb with good ball skills that helps your entire defense out. now, obviously these guys are hard to find, and one also has to take into account the state of the nfl and the rules hamperiong pass coverage, but is it the parade of dbs they've brought in, or the scheme, or a combo of the two? i'm at the point where i'm no longer sure. it becomes even more complicated when guys are hurt - how do you judge patrick chung; steve gregory; arrington; dowling when they aren't on the field and healthy. the book is still out on guys like cole and dennard and wilson obviously. there just isn't a lot of healthy, experienced bodies. at least with talib (assuming he can stay out of jail) you feel like he's a guy with legit skills who could start for a lot of teams in the nfl. personally, I don't think it matters where mccourty plays. you need to put your 4-5 healthiest, most effective bodies wherever they'll be the most successful. not sure right now they even have 4-5 decent guys to accomplish that. when healthy they're probably best off with mccourty; talib; gregory; and chung and dennard in that slot spot, I guess. 

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: DMac as starting FS from here on out. Thoughts?

    Personally I wouldn't leave him at safety. I think what happens sometimes with moves like these is that after closer evaluation you find out there will be problems with the players performance. McCourty is probably  the most talented guy we have in the secondary - I don't want him playing a positon that corners tend to retire into in his third season. Ten years from now...yeah.

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: DMac as starting FS from here on out. Thoughts?

    Devin McCourty is our best athlete in the secondary, it's why he can return kicks 101 yards for a TD.  He is starting at safety now because he is also the most technically sound secondary defender we have and won't let people get behind him in zone.  He can erase mistakes by Dennard, Moore and Arrington or whoever plays corner.  

    That being said when we get some healthy safeties back, he'll go back to corner.  He does what's asked of him, he's a good soldier who gets the toughest assignment game after game and gets exposed because of our pathetic pass rush.  A lot of you thought Dennard was going to be the next coming of Ty Law, but the reality is that he stepped in, got burned just as easy when the pass rush was non existant and benefitted when they got pressure.

    Our four man front has been getting better as the season has worn on and the increased use of 3 DT's (a healthy Deaderick) has also helped.  In short we have better options at safety with Chung, Wilson, Gregory and Ebner.  This defense will get better with health and real game experience as a unit... they've been improving since game one.

     

     
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