Does Everyone Now See Why?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Does Everyone Now See Why?

    In response to Harvey-Wallbanger's comment:

    In response to Uncle Rico's comment:

     

    Another thread where Harvey is taking a bad beating.  Amazing he continues to come here.  He must have pretty low self esteem.

    rkarp is correct.  Poor roster management. I will add that the GM didn't do his job.

    **

    Back in '82, I used to be able to throw a pigskin a quarter mile.

    How much you wanna make a bet I can throw a football over them mountains?... Yeah... Coach woulda put me in fourth quarter, we would've been state champions. No doubt. No doubt in my mind.

     



    Sounds great, Bustchise. Sweet job signing in and out so quickly and posing as a Pats fan.

     

    RKrap is wrong. As usual.

    Giants and Steelers 0-4, Balt should be 1-3 and is lucky to be 2-2 at this point. 

    You want bad manegement, please see those teams, you phony frauds.

    I specifically warned of those teams to the T with WHY they were running their  teams in poor fashion off the lockout.

    YOu can't have that many poor or average drafts with vets coming off the books due to poor salary allocation and not expect it to catch up. I predicted it wouldn't work, and here we are.

    Watch Baltimore now.  Just watch. If they drop to 2-3 with Miami next week, their schedule won't get any easier and Harbaugh is already calling out players in the press, which is poor leadership.



    when having a discussion on a subject, why is part of your back pedaling and excuse making changing the subject??

    the issue is that with Vince hurt, the Pats have 2 UDFA and TKelly for DT's. They have about $8M in cap space available, but no one to sign. they are hoping against hope that Love or Cunningham will come back, and that Armstead doesnt miss the entire season.

    what does Baltimore, Pitts or the Giants have to do with this topic??

    many of us were calling for a DT to be drafted. many of us were calling for a DT to be signed ALONG WITH Kelly. yet here we are with 2 UDFA manning the position...that is poor roster management

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Does Everyone Now See Why?

    In response to TFB12's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

     

     

     

     

     According to the NFLPA, we currently have just shy of $6.9 million in cap space.  Note that some of that money will be used up by paying performance bonuses, so not all of it is actually available to sign players. 

     

    Trades are rare in the NFL, so acquiring a guy who is paid more than a minimum amount is unlikely.  The most likely signings are rookie or veteran free agents or practice squad players at minimum salaries.

     

     

     

     




    I have 2 different sources showing just over $10 mil in cap room.

     

    Does the NFLPA take into consideration the 2012 rollover of $5.6 mil?

     



    Yes.  The NFLPA numbers (updated on their web site daily) are the most complete and up to date figures available. They do take carry over into account.  The Pats are at $7.2 million today.  Not sure how they got more money.  May have to do with a cut they made (Cole and Davis transactions?).  Seems like they picked up a minimum salary.  

     

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Does Everyone Now See Why?

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

     

     

     

     According to the NFLPA, we currently have just shy of $6.9 million in cap space.  Note that some of that money will be used up by paying performance bonuses, so not all of it is actually available to sign players

     

    Trades are rare in the NFL, so acquiring a guy who is paid more than a minimum amount is unlikely.  The most likely signings are rookie or veteran free agents or practice squad players at minimum salaries.

     

     



    Close pro, in year bonuses are split into two catagories, likely to be earned (which are already counted against this years cap) and unlikely to be earned (which are not counted but are counted against next years cap). Since unused money is transfered over to next year the ULTBE usually has no effect on the current year.

     

    Yes, that's right.  However, if you leave enough padding in this year's budget so that you stay under the cap after those ULTBE bonuses are paid, you won't cut into next year's cap.  If you spend right up to the cap and then have to pay ULTBE bonuses, those bonuses will end up being subtracted from next year's cap, leaving you at a disadvantage next year. I think most teams prefer to keep some padding in the current year to avoid that hit next year.

    You are right about the min salary though. A Wilfork replacement will barely touch the cap because of the quality of potential replacement available. The best case would have been to spend earlier with added depth in the offseason not to reserve the funds until now. Better quality replacement by adding the depth in the offseason and using some of the cap money then instead of waiting for injury at a shallow depth position during the season. Anyone trying to claim that this is the reason why they saved the cap space doesn't know how deals during the season or the cap actually work. You never spend to the cap right before the season but you also never need more than $3mil at most for in season moves unless you decide to make a big trade, which is rare in the NFL and even more rare for the Pats considering they don't take on big contracts and they don't trade away high picks. Whatever cap space they have would best be used on extensions at this point as replacement players won't eat up all that cap space available

     




     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Does Everyone Now See Why?

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

     

     

     

     According to the NFLPA, we currently have just shy of $6.9 million in cap space.  Note that some of that money will be used up by paying performance bonuses, so not all of it is actually available to sign players

     

    Trades are rare in the NFL, so acquiring a guy who is paid more than a minimum amount is unlikely.  The most likely signings are rookie or veteran free agents or practice squad players at minimum salaries.

     

     



    Close pro, in year bonuses are split into two catagories, likely to be earned (which are already counted against this years cap) and unlikely to be earned (which are not counted but are counted against next years cap). Since unused money is transfered over to next year the ULTBE usually has no effect on the current year.

     

    Yes, that's right.  However, if you leave enough padding in this year's budget so that you stay under the cap after those ULTBE bonuses are paid, you won't cut into next year's cap.  If you spend right up to the cap and then have to pay ULTBE bonuses, those bonuses will end up being subtracted from next year's cap, leaving you at a disadvantage next year. I think most teams prefer to keep some padding in the current year to avoid that hit next year.

    You are right about the min salary though. A Wilfork replacement will barely touch the cap because of the quality of potential replacement available. The best case would have been to spend earlier with added depth in the offseason not to reserve the funds until now. Better quality replacement by adding the depth in the offseason and using some of the cap money then instead of waiting for injury at a shallow depth position during the season. Anyone trying to claim that this is the reason why they saved the cap space doesn't know how deals during the season or the cap actually work. You never spend to the cap right before the season but you also never need more than $3mil at most for in season moves unless you decide to make a big trade, which is rare in the NFL and even more rare for the Pats considering they don't take on big contracts and they don't trade away high picks. Whatever cap space they have would best be used on extensions at this point as replacement players won't eat up all that cap space available

     




     



    That's correct Pro however, ULTBE are that way for a reason, because they are ULTBE. For the most part you aren't looking at a huge amount of cap that would be used for those bonuses. I've actually never heard of more than $2mil given in any year (including the SB years) for those types of bonuses so it's not like if they have to use part of next years cap it will hurt them more than signing a A. Wilson? But, even if they do spend right to the cap and those bonuses are earned, most of those bonuses are for probowl caliber play from non-probowlers or for deep playoff runs in which higher stats are raked up. If either happens from a large number of players wouldn't you say that was worth the price in part of next years cap? However, most of us aren't even suggesting that we spend directly to the cap. I have said all along you keep $3mil in reserve for injury replacements and even for ULTBE's. That should more than cover both in an average year and if you need more there are always ways to get a little more. However, in areas that we were clearly lacking depth at the position (like DT) wouldn't part of that $4-5mil (leaving them ~$3mil in the reserve I suggested) they now have be better spent during the FA period for quality depth towards that position? Heck, if you got the quality depth to begin with there would be no need to look at a trade and a Vellano or Jones could step up as a #3 without a massive drop off. That's the point I think most are trying to make. If you spent more in the FA period to add quality depth (not spend all the way to the cap but spend more) you help the team this year and don't have to get scrubs to replace starters while having massive amounts of cap space you aren't going to spend anyways.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Does Everyone Now See Why?

    Come on Rusty!  Get to 1,000 posts in nine days.

    What a loser!

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: Does Everyone Now See Why?

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

     

     

     

     According to the NFLPA, we currently have just shy of $6.9 million in cap space.  Note that some of that money will be used up by paying performance bonuses, so not all of it is actually available to sign players

     

    Trades are rare in the NFL, so acquiring a guy who is paid more than a minimum amount is unlikely.  The most likely signings are rookie or veteran free agents or practice squad players at minimum salaries.

     

     



    Close pro, in year bonuses are split into two catagories, likely to be earned (which are already counted against this years cap) and unlikely to be earned (which are not counted but are counted against next years cap). Since unused money is transfered over to next year the ULTBE usually has no effect on the current year.

     

    Yes, that's right.  However, if you leave enough padding in this year's budget so that you stay under the cap after those ULTBE bonuses are paid, you won't cut into next year's cap.  If you spend right up to the cap and then have to pay ULTBE bonuses, those bonuses will end up being subtracted from next year's cap, leaving you at a disadvantage next year. I think most teams prefer to keep some padding in the current year to avoid that hit next year.

    You are right about the min salary though. A Wilfork replacement will barely touch the cap because of the quality of potential replacement available. The best case would have been to spend earlier with added depth in the offseason not to reserve the funds until now. Better quality replacement by adding the depth in the offseason and using some of the cap money then instead of waiting for injury at a shallow depth position during the season. Anyone trying to claim that this is the reason why they saved the cap space doesn't know how deals during the season or the cap actually work. You never spend to the cap right before the season but you also never need more than $3mil at most for in season moves unless you decide to make a big trade, which is rare in the NFL and even more rare for the Pats considering they don't take on big contracts and they don't trade away high picks. Whatever cap space they have would best be used on extensions at this point as replacement players won't eat up all that cap space available

     




     

     



    That's correct Pro however, ULTBE are that way for a reason, because they are ULTBE. For the most part you aren't looking at a huge amount of cap that would be used for those bonuses. I've actually never heard of more than $2mil given in any year (including the SB years) for those types of bonuses so it's not like if they have to use part of next years cap it will hurt them more than signing a A. Wilson? But, even if they do spend right to the cap and those bonuses are earned, most of those bonuses are for probowl caliber play from non-probowlers or for deep playoff runs in which higher stats are raked up. If either happens from a large number of players wouldn't you say that was worth the price in part of next years cap? However, most of us aren't even suggesting that we spend directly to the cap. I have said all along you keep $3mil in reserve for injury replacements and even for ULTBE's. That should more than cover both in an average year and if you need more there are always ways to get a little more. However, in areas that we were clearly lacking depth at the position (like DT) wouldn't part of that $4-5mil (leaving them ~$3mil in the reserve I suggested) they now have be better spent during the FA period for quality depth towards that position? Heck, if you got the quality depth to begin with there would be no need to look at a trade and a Vellano or Jones could step up as a #3 without a massive drop off. That's the point I think most are trying to make. If you spent more in the FA period to add quality depth (not spend all the way to the cap but spend more) you help the team this year and don't have to get scrubs to replace starters while having massive amounts of cap space you aren't going to spend anyways.

     



    Bingo

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from CubanPete. Show CubanPete's posts

    Re: Does Everyone Now See Why?

    Wilfork is overrated. He won't be missed as much as most think. Spare me the "leadership" crap and the myth that he ties up half the opposition's O-line.

    He's old and has been inconsistent the last few seasons. In 2012, Vince had an awful 1st half and a great 2nd half, then was average in the playoffs. This year, he was off to another bad start. In 2011, he was the best player in the AFFCG win over Baltimore that season then sucked in SB 46 2 weeks later. He's never been effective in the passing game and at 31, his wheels have seen alot of mileage.

    Ironically, this opens up more opportunities for Joe Vellano - a player that I've been impressed with since preseason. Vellano has shown flashes of ability, both as a pass rusher and against the run. Up to now, he's been outperforming Wilfork this year.

     

    ...the King of the Rumba Beat...

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: Does Everyone Now See Why?

    In response to CubanPete's comment:

    Wilfork is overrated. He won't be missed as much as most think. Spare me the "leadership" crap and the myth that he ties up half the opposition's O-line.

    He's old and has been inconsistent the last few seasons. In 2012, Vince had an awful 1st half and a great 2nd half, then was average in the playoffs. This year, he was off to another bad start. In 2011, he was the best player in the AFFCG win over Baltimore that season then sucked in SB 46 2 weeks later. He's never been effective in the passing game and at 31, his wheels have seen alot of mileage.

    Ironically, this opens up more opportunities for Joe Vellano - a player that I've been impressed with since preseason. Vellano has shown flashes of ability, both as a pass rusher and against the run. Up to now, he's been outperforming Wilfork this year.

     

    ...the King of the Rumba Beat...




    was it you that said Vellano looked good in preseason and was called a troll for saying he was better than Wilfork? I know it happened, cant remember if it was you. You are right in your asessment.(I DO think his leadership will be slightly missed but I trust Mayo, McCourty, Talib to pick up slack) He is up there and has good and bad games as of late. I thought 2011 was his last Great year. Last year, up and down and this year he hadnt did much. It just would have been nice to have a real replacement. We may not need a 350 lb'er as we play a 4-3, but you still need a real D. Tackle. Kelly is gonna take a beating in there. We will survive against passing teams but we need some beef in there vs the Bengals.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Does Everyone Now See Why?

    In response to Harvey-Wallbanger's comment:

    Your jealousy (of me being right every time against you) is delicious.



    That's the creepiest thing you've ever posted.

    It has taken me almost four years to get to 18K posts.  At your current rate, you do that in four months.

    What a total loser.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Does Everyone Now See Why?

    What a loser.

    1,046 posts in nine days.

    0 containing the truth.

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bungalow-Bill. Show Bungalow-Bill's posts

    Re: Does Everyone Now See Why?

    Most of us could already see that you were a lying, debag fraud years ago, queenie.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Does Everyone Now See Why?

    In response to Harvey-Wallbanger's comment:

    I mean, Vince goes down and now we need to either promote a player from the PS or make a signing or trade.

    If you spend to the cap, to the penny, within a million bucks or less for example, the GM cannot have any leverage in this area.

    It's high time the belligerents on this board come forward, admit how ignorant they are on these topics, and admit they're beyond childish with it, refusing to learn from others who get it.

     



    Hahahahahahahahahahaha

    Only a moron would want 10 million in space squirreled away for 'unknown doom' such as:

    A. Failing to build a secondary for 4 seasons so needing a trade for Talib (2 seasons too late and after they let guys like Goldson slip away over pennies)

    B. A 385lb already injured 31 year old going down and ZERO depth build behind him

    Here's a thought, DRAFT or SIGN a legit started at that position for 5-6 million and save 4-5 million in reserve.

    And Bill hasn't spent that savings to replace Vince yet!

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Does Everyone Now See Why?

    In response to Harvey-Wallbanger's comment:

     

    Those people have DESTROYED this board unwilling to be educated on certain topics, balance on offense, cap concepts and Brady's poor postseson play being a few here,

     



    Have those people been banned 30+ times like you have Megatool?

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Does Everyone Now See Why?

     

     The Patriots are back at $6.9 million today (probably fluctuating because of the Cole transactions).  The NFL average is $6.5 million, so the Pats are right about at the average for cap space this time of year.  The average is skewed away from the median, however, because of a few teams with a lot of cap space, so maybe the Pats' ranking on the list is more significant.  If you look at it that way, they are 11th in the amount of salary cap remaining, with 10 teams having more room than they have and 21 having less.  The range is a low of just $0.4 million for the Rams to a high of $25.7 million for the Browns.  The ten teams with more cap room than the Pats are:

     

    Browns (25.7)

    Jaguars (22.1)

    Bills (19.1)

    Dolphins (18.1)

    Eagles (17.2)

    Bears (11.9)

    Packers (11.0)

    Buccaneers (8.8)

    Titans (8.2)

    Bengals (7.8)

     

     When evaluating cap room, you also have to think about how many contracts are likely to extend into the next year and what your cost next year would be for cutting any of those contracts.  You certainly don't want to sign guys now who, if you cut them after the season, would burden you with lots of dead money next year. Also, I'm not 100% sure how the carry over rules work.  The CBA is not clear I don't think about whether or not the carried over amount is erased after one year or whether it can be carried over from year to year and "stockpiled."  My belief is the first is right, that it can be carried over only into the next year and that it is zeroed out and reset at the end of each season.  If that's the case, the majority of the Pats' cap room now is carry over room, which disappears at the end of the season.  That's not necessarily a problem, but it does mean that they'll need to be sure they can shave off $5.6 million (their carry over amount) through cuts at the end of the season (while also taking into account dead money that may be caused by those cuts--or caused by cuts to players made during this season, including the Hernandez cut).  So the Pats' salary guys have to be thinking about what happens at season end and how it impacts next season as well as thinking just about the room they have for this year. Without all the data, it's hard to tell whether the Pats' $6.9 million is mostly unencumbered money that they could spend freely or whether they have to be careful with it because they need a cushion to not be forced into making undesirable cuts at season end. 

     

     One thing that I think Rusty is absolutely correct about is that the Pats do a very good job of managing their cap.  I also believe that they aren't "stingy" with their overall dollars.  Bob Kraft isn't trying to save money (a few million in salaries is nothing for him).  If the Pats aren't spending everything it's primarily because they want to maintain flexibility to bring people in during the season while not getting into a position at season end where their hand is forced into making undesirable cuts. They also aren't going to spend money just to spend money--i.e., they won't spend the money unless they feel the value is right.  That's a principle they never violate because doing so eventually gets you into cap problems. 

     

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from ghostofjri37. Show ghostofjri37's posts

    Re: Does Everyone Now See Why?

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

     The Patriots are back at $6.9 million today (probably fluctuating because of the Cole transactions).  The NFL average is $6.5 million, so the Pats are right about at the average for cap space this time of year.  The average is skewed away from the median, however, because of a few teams with a lot of cap space, so maybe the Pats' ranking on the list is more significant.  If you look at it that way, they are 11th in the amount of salary cap remaining, with 10 teams having more room than they have and 21 having less.  The range is a low of just $0.4 million for the Rams to a high of $25.7 million for the Browns.  The ten teams with more cap room than the Pats are:

     

    Browns (25.7)

    Jaguars (22.1)

    Bills (19.1)

    Dolphins (18.1)

    Eagles (17.2)

    Bears (11.9)

    Packers (11.0)

    Buccaneers (8.8)

    Titans (8.2)

    Bengals (7.8)

     

     When evaluating cap room, you also have to think about how many contracts are likely to extend into the next year and what your cost next year would be for cutting any of those contracts.  You certainly don't want to sign guys now who, if you cut them after the season, would burden you with lots of dead money next year. Also, I'm not 100% sure how the carry over rules work.  The CBA is not clear I don't think about whether or not the carried over amount is erased after one year or whether it can be carried over from year to year and "stockpiled."  My belief is the first is right, that it can be carried over only into the next year and that it is zeroed out and reset at the end of each season.  If that's the case, the majority of the Pats' cap room now is carry over room, which disappears at the end of the season.  That's not necessarily a problem, but it does mean that they'll need to be sure they can shave off $5.6 million (their carry over amount) through cuts at the end of the season (while also taking into account dead money that may be caused by those cuts--or caused by cuts to players made during this season, including the Hernandez cut).  So the Pats' salary guys have to be thinking about what happens at season end and how it impacts next season as well as thinking just about the room they have for this year. Without all the data, it's hard to tell whether the Pats' $6.9 million is mostly unencumbered money that they could spend freely or whether they have to be careful with it because they need a cushion to not be forced into making undesirable cuts at season end. 

     

     One thing that I think Rusty is absolutely correct about is that the Pats do a very good job of managing their cap.  I also believe that they aren't "stingy" with their overall dollars.  Bob Kraft isn't trying to save money (a few million in salaries is nothing for him).  If the Pats aren't spending everything it's primarily because they want to maintain flexibility to bring people in during the season while not getting into a position at season end where their hand is forced into making undesirable cuts. They also aren't going to spend money just to spend money--i.e., they won't spend the money unless they feel the value is right.  That's a principle they never violate because doing so eventually gets you into cap problems. 

     

     




    Pro, great post!

    You are absolutely correct they will not deviate from their model. The theory some have that it is Kraft trying to save money is about as far from the truth as you can get. In 2012 in actual dollars spent they were 8th highest in the league.

    http://www.statista.com/statistics/240074/player-salaries-of-national-football-league-teams/

     

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Does Everyone Now See Why?

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

     One thing that I think Rusty is absolutely correct about is that the Pats do a very good job of managing their cap.  I also believe that they aren't "stingy" with their overall dollars.  Bob Kraft isn't trying to save money (a few million in salaries is nothing for him).  If the Pats aren't spending everything it's primarily because they want to maintain flexibility to bring people in during the season while not getting into a position at season end where their hand is forced into making undesirable cuts. They also aren't going to spend money just to spend money--i.e., they won't spend the money unless they feel the value is right.  That's a principle they never violate because doing so eventually gets you into cap problems. 

     

     



    I agree and disagree to a point. Examples:

    Goldson 2 years ago - came up just short of signing him back then. The difference was ~$1mil

    Welker this year - again a couple mil was the difference over two years

    Sanders this year - not sure how much would have been the tipping point for Pit but for the most part it sounds like it couldn't have been more than a mil or 2

    There have been more than one case where they drew a hard line on the deal and not the player and missed out by pennies on the dollar compared to what they ended up saving in the end. But then they also have massive amounts of dead money every year usually most not tied up on a single player so they tend to spend a lot on cheaper guys who get cut and count against the cap too. It's the 10 dimes vs a dollar thing. Yes they do find guys but they end up spending as much to find that one guy for cheap (by signing x number of extra players) as they would to sign the 1 high quality guy to begin with. Goldson is the perfect example. If they signed him 2 yrs ago there would be no need to sign Gregory or A. Wilson and no need to spend 2 drafts pick at that one position (though I still think they would have grabbed one draft pick). That other draft pick then could have been used at a different position negating the need to sign a player at that other position for depth. It all adds up. So while I won't say the are cheap and they do manage the cap well I will say they value the deal over the player (see BB's comments on the J Jones trade) which imo has hurt them on certain deals and has cost them depth at key positions.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxfan94. Show redsoxfan94's posts

    Re: Does Everyone Now See Why?

    i agree that its a good thing that they leave some room in the cap so that if something like this happens, they can survive it better than most teams.....but with that being said, the money isnt worth much if they dont do anything about it....i mean i love watching joe vellano give his 110% out there, but i dont think that will last the whole year.

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Does Everyone Now See Why?

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

     

     One thing that I think Rusty is absolutely correct about is that the Pats do a very good job of managing their cap.  I also believe that they aren't "stingy" with their overall dollars.  Bob Kraft isn't trying to save money (a few million in salaries is nothing for him).  If the Pats aren't spending everything it's primarily because they want to maintain flexibility to bring people in during the season while not getting into a position at season end where their hand is forced into making undesirable cuts. They also aren't going to spend money just to spend money--i.e., they won't spend the money unless they feel the value is right.  That's a principle they never violate because doing so eventually gets you into cap problems. 

     

     

     



    I agree and disagree to a point. Examples:

     

    Goldson 2 years ago - came up just short of signing him back then. The difference was ~$1mil

    Welker this year - again a couple mil was the difference over two years

    Sanders this year - not sure how much would have been the tipping point for Pit but for the most part it sounds like it couldn't have been more than a mil or 2

    There have been more than one case where they drew a hard line on the deal and not the player and missed out by pennies on the dollar compared to what they ended up saving in the end. But then they also have massive amounts of dead money every year usually most not tied up on a single player so they tend to spend a lot on cheaper guys who get cut and count against the cap too. It's the 10 dimes vs a dollar thing. Yes they do find guys but they end up spending as much to find that one guy for cheap (by signing x number of extra players) as they would to sign the 1 high quality guy to begin with. Goldson is the perfect example. If they signed him 2 yrs ago there would be no need to sign Gregory or A. Wilson and no need to spend 2 drafts pick at that one position (though I still think they would have grabbed one draft pick). That other draft pick then could have been used at a different position negating the need to sign a player at that other position for depth. It all adds up. So while I won't say the are cheap and they do manage the cap well I will say they value the deal over the player (see BB's comments on the J Jones trade) which imo has hurt them on certain deals and has cost them depth at key positions.



    This is a slightly different point.  It's more about whether they judge value right and whether they are too reluctant to invest in high-value, high-cap-cost players.  Like you, I sometimes think they are too conservative this way.  But it's not because they are trying to save money or don't want to spend all they can on players.  Instead, it's because they are reluctant to commit too much of their cap space to one player unless they are absolutely convinced that the value is there. 

     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Does Everyone Now See Why?

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     


    This is a slightly different point.  It's more about whether they judge value right and whether they are too reluctant to invest in high-value, high-cap-cost players.  Like you, I sometimes think they are too conservative this way.  But it's not because they are trying to save money or don't want to spend all they can on players.  Instead, it's because they are reluctant to commit too much of their cap space to one player unless they are absolutely convinced that the value is there. 

     

     



    I would agree if the players I mentioned were high priced guys at the time they tried to sign them and failed to. None of them at that point were going to kill the cap and none of them got long term deals at that point. So they weren't going to be a hinderence on the cap at that time of in the future. I think in these particular cases they set a value and wouldn't give that little bit extra to get their guy. I could see if they were $3+mil away or years apart but $1-2mil isn't anything. They through that away on players like A. Wilson all the time in camp. They bring a large number of players in and cut them totaling more than the $1-2mil difference to get a player they wanted. I can see reluctance to sign a high priced guy but $3mil for Sanders, $3mil for Goldson (at that time), $6mil for Welker when you were ready to offer $2mil, $2.5mil, $5mil? 

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Patsman3. Show Patsman3's posts

    Re: Does Everyone Now See Why?

    So enlighten us oh Rusty, who did they go out and sign to replace Vince with this extra money???

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Does Everyone Now See Why?


    I just think it's hilarious that the same moron that ran around here screaming about "salary cap hell" has no explanation for why most teams in the league are 5-20 million under the cap and there are no good players out there to sign. Seems strange, doesn't it? I mean this was supposed to cripple everybody (except us)...this is why we were so fiscally resposible as we passed on talent, year after year, after year. Now we need players, have money...yet there is no one out there to sign. The scary salary cap hell sure wasn't so scary after all.

    So we were saving up all that money to sign
    Austin Collie?

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Patsman3. Show Patsman3's posts

    Re: Does Everyone Now See Why?

    In response to Harvey-Wallbanger's comment:

    In response to Patsman3's comment:

     

    So enlighten us oh Rusty, who did they go out and sign to replace Vince with this extra money???

     



    YOu dont have to sign anyone.

     

    I gave 4 names as examples, in order, whom I think would be available and who would work here:

    Linval Joseph

    Mike Patterson (3-4 experience)

    Cullen Jenkins (3-4 experience)

    Shaun ROgers (not as attractive an option as the top 3)

    And....A Wildcard option of Justin Tuck, a FA in 2014, age 30 and will not be getting a contract he thinks he will after the season. Joseph will take his money, most likely. Giants in a cap hell and essentially rebuilding as is Pitt.

    AFC teams will not want to trade with us in fear of being fleeced.

    Tuck as a DE would allow Chandler Jones to kick inside in the 4-3, Tuck to 4-3 DE with Buchanan as subpackage DE pass rusher if you need it.

    Vellano and Chris JOnes (maybe Armstead later on), are your subs in the 4-3 behind Kelly and Chandler Jones. Or, maybe Vellano keeps ascending as the year goes and doesn't need to play so sparingly?

     



    LOL, great listing of names but again WHO DID THE PATS SIGN. Your whole arguement is they were keeping cap space in case of an emergency like Vince going down, Vince went down.... AND THEY SIGNED NO ONE.  So the cap space is still sitting there.  I guess BB didn't get your memo.....

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Patsman3. Show Patsman3's posts

    Re: Does Everyone Now See Why?

    In response to Harvey-Wallbanger's comment:

    In response to Patsman3's comment:

     

    In response to Harvey-Wallbanger's comment:

     

     

     

    In response to Patsman3's comment:

     

     

     

    So enlighten us oh Rusty, who did they go out and sign to replace Vince with this extra money???

     

     

     



    YOu dont have to sign anyone.

     

     

     

    I gave 4 names as examples, in order, whom I think would be available and who would work here:

    Linval Joseph

    Mike Patterson (3-4 experience)

    Cullen Jenkins (3-4 experience)

    Shaun ROgers (not as attractive an option as the top 3)

    And....A Wildcard option of Justin Tuck, a FA in 2014, age 30 and will not be getting a contract he thinks he will after the season. Joseph will take his money, most likely. Giants in a cap hell and essentially rebuilding as is Pitt.

    AFC teams will not want to trade with us in fear of being fleeced.

    Tuck as a DE would allow Chandler Jones to kick inside in the 4-3, Tuck to 4-3 DE with Buchanan as subpackage DE pass rusher if you need it.

    Vellano and Chris JOnes (maybe Armstead later on), are your subs in the 4-3 behind Kelly and Chandler Jones. Or, maybe Vellano keeps ascending as the year goes and doesn't need to play so sparingly?

     

     

     



    LOL, great listing of names but again WHO DID THE PATS SIGN. Your whole arguement is they were keeping cap space in case of an emergency like Vince going down, Vince went down.... AND THEY SIGNED NO ONE.  So the cap space is still sitting there.  I guess BB didn't get your memo.....

     

     

     



    They signed Tommy Kelly. They also brought on Armond Armstead.  They extended Rob Ninkovich.

     

    So, you're little passive agressive "lol" when I countered your question cold, is not lost on the board.

    The price will be LOWER with more teams being as bad as they are say at 2-6 or 1-7 at the trade deadline.

    That means BB will have a the pick of the litter if he so chooses to add salary.  Tuck's would be about 2.5.

    If he didn't have some space he couldn't be engaged in trade talks at all, which is the exact concept of leverage in this discussion.

    Just because you don't get it, doesn't mean I am incorrect.

    BB knows Chip Kelly, Philly sucks. Go look at their options. It's a lame duck year, Vick is done and they'll be sellers.

    That's one more NFC team. ANother? TB.  They'e 0-4 and selling off with BB friendly with Schiano.

    Glad I could help.

     



    HAHA you have been exposed one's again.  Your whole arguement was about how they need to save cap space GOING INTO THE SEASON in case of emergency.  Now your listing everyone they signed BEFORE the season started and BEFORE Vince was hurt.

    I win, you lose again Rusty.  GAME OVER.  I am done here.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: Does Everyone Now See Why?

    They already are in the hole for more than 12 Mil  ( and rising) next year due to DEAD MONEY and no players to show for it.

    Betcha Talib would love to see some of that.  Too bad he can't and won't.

    5 mil of that cap space will go to off set  some of that,  provided they can carry it over.

    The constant influx of worthless and cut players is killing them. 

    This is not good cap/roster management.

    Without TB restructuring every other year they are in a bigger hole.  In fact, would be in the negative right now.

    Thank YOU, TB!


    "The worse New England has gotten on defense, the better Brady has been forced to become -- with 109 touchdowns, 20 interceptions and a 39-9 record the past three seasons. "

    CLARK JUDGE______7/13/13_____________________________________
                                  
                             

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: Does Everyone Now See Why?

    In response to Harvey-Wallbanger's comment:

    They are not in the hole for 12 million in dead money. Also, when you have so many rookies playing so well so early in the season, with your team so young and built, it simply doesn't have the effect you are claiming it does.

    Enjoy your mac and cheese in that basement!




    Ummm, yes they are.  Add it up.  You can add can't you?  Just leave off all those 000,000.00's.

    It will be easier for you.

     
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