Dolphins Teamate Says Martins Claims Overstated

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: Dolphins Teamate Says Martins Claims Overstated


    Pro, you have stated it the best so far. I agree for the most part even though it is not confirmed.

    I think the fact that all these x players, specifically former or current miami players are doing damage control because they want it to go away but its too late. They probably payed asked these players to make a statement and make it look like nothing.  Good morning america and all the likes are on it already. I took it the same way. They wanted him to be tougher but went about it the wrong way. My question was could he play on the field?? If so, why did they care if he was shy or not. Thats my question because not performing is not performing at the end of the day but rather than CUT their 2nd round investment they chose to try to CHANGE the player and we all know as men we cant be changed. It was akward and he went along with as long as he could same as my friend is doing in his current state because he needs the work. He has a choice to leave when he wants but it doesnt make the atmosphere he is in ok.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheTinMan. Show TheTinMan's posts

    Re: Dolphins Teamate Says Martins Claims Overstated

    I did see some stuff yesterday indicating there are stories in the Florida papers that the coach put Incognito up to it in the late spring.

    I can't vouch for any of it, but what I got out of it was that on the surface the coach wanted to toughen Martin up, but it was apparently set up when Martin did not attend OTA's.  Appears the coach was trying to find a way to force Martin to attend optional activities.

    If that is true, there's going to be some interesting stuff coming out of the league offices and possibly the players' union.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheTinMan. Show TheTinMan's posts

    Re: Dolphins Teamate Says Martins Claims Overstated

    saw it here, with references to Florida reporters and papers

    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/05/report-coaches-wanted-incognito-to-toughen-up-martin/

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Dolphins Teamate Says Martins Claims Overstated

    In response to TheTinMan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    saw it here, with references to Florida reporters and papers

    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/05/report-coaches-wanted-incognito-to-toughen-up-martin/

    [/QUOTE]

    Interesting. What's worse - this recent issue involving Incognito/Martin or the New Orleans Saints bounty scandal?

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattC05. Show MattC05's posts

    Re: Dolphins Teamate Says Martins Claims Overstated

    In response to anonymis' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Interesting. What's worse - this recent issue involving Incognito/Martin or the New Orleans Saints bounty scandal?

    [/QUOTE]

    Honestly, I think this is worse.  These are supposed to be Martin's TEAMMATES, the guys who have his back.  It sounds like not a single one of them actually did.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Dolphins Teamate Says Martins Claims Overstated

    In response to CablesWyndBairn's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    At the risk of sounding insensitive or that I would ever tolerate racism...

    I've seen lots of things said in a locker room that would in no way be tolerated in the real world.  Everyone knows it's banter.  You are around a bunch of grown men and they say many things - racial or ethnic epithets, question your sexuality, the size of your knob,  you name it.  You either give it right back or you're perceived as fresh fish.  It's part of being a man, it's part of a ritual of acceptance amongst your peers, fair or not. I've come to realise as I grow a bit past my prime atlhletic years that I've dished it out as much as I've had to take it.  I've been the only caucasian in a locker room, the only Scottish-born guy in a room of Englishmen or Americans and I've been given a lot of lip for those reasons.  I'm positive I've said things in my life to others unlike me that, outside of a locker room, would have resulted in a fight.

    I can't say that I can totally relate to this Martin fellow in that I wasn't asked to dish out $15k for Vegas trips or the like.  But to me, if you're a man, stick up for yourself or be seen as a soft touch and suffer the consequences.  

       

    [/QUOTE]

    Any of us who have been in locker rooms or in other male-only settings, know that guys (or at least a fair number of them) have a tendency to behave in this way.  But there are degrees of it, and the behaviour can be controlled if there is effective leadership and the men are made aware that such behaviour won't be tolerated, at least in its more extreme forms. Personally, I see no need for it whatsoever, and I've always thought men who participate in this kind of behaviour seem dumb or childish.  It's not a behaviour that inspires respect.  Good-natured ribbing is fine, of course, but stuff that borders on abuse and cruelty is just creepy in my opinion. Incognito's phone message was well over the line into creepy. 

    I've kind of steered clear of Coolade's girlfriend's comment that she thinks Incognito is gay.  I don't necessarily believe that, but honestly the dominance/submission behaviour at the heart of hazing has always seemed just a tad homosexual to me.  It probably says something interesting about male sexuality . . . but I'll leave that one for you all to think about on your own . . . Wink

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: Dolphins Teamate Says Martins Claims Overstated

    Since we are wildly speculating.  How about Martin was a marginal player who has underperformed in one of the most stressful and demanding jobs in the world.  His failures had him under so much pressure that when his friends played a harmless joke on him he snapped and checked into a hospital.  Then the story of the missing Dolphin grew out of control.  As his parents tried to calm him as parents do they told him it wasn't his fault it was everyone else's fault.  So he blamed his team.  He then played an old message from Incognito knowing that the way they talk to each other would get more play in the media.  He was actually friends with Incognito and had never been offended by the language and may have engaged in it as well.

    Might be wrong, but my story fits the facts a heck of a lot better than the story about Martin being a delicate flower who was harassed by Incognito. 

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Dolphins Teamate Says Martins Claims Overstated

    In response to TripleOG's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to CablesWyndBairn's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    At the risk of sounding insensitive or that I would ever tolerate racism...

    I've seen lots of things said in a locker room that would in no way be tolerated in the real world.  Everyone knows it's banter.  You are around a bunch of grown men and they say many things - racial or ethnic epithets, question your sexuality, the size of your knob,  you name it.  You either give it right back or you're perceived as fresh fish.  It's part of being a man, it's part of a ritual of acceptance amongst your peers, fair or not. I've come to realise as I grow a bit past my prime atlhletic years that I've dished it out as much as I've had to take it.  I've been the only caucasian in a locker room, the only Scottish-born guy in a room of Englishmen or Americans and I've been given a lot of lip for those reasons.  I'm positive I've said things in my life to others unlike me that, outside of a locker room, would have resulted in a fight.

    I can't say that I can totally relate to this Martin fellow in that I wasn't asked to dish out $15k for Vegas trips or the like.  But to me, if you're a man, stick up for yourself or be seen as a soft touch and suffer the consequences.  

       

    [/QUOTE]

    I think he made it clear how he felt when he left the team. No one is gonna say the NFL is not a grown mans league and that the culture may be normal but in the context of it STILL being a proffesional job it may have gotten out of hand due to lack of leadership. We know BB. He has been here over 10 years. He nipped it in the bud early. How can a team show that leadership with new coaches every other year?

    I dont know if you read my post on this about my friends text JUST this morning but he sent a few more.  HE just started working , with his brother with a bunch of guys in landscaping who know each and have worked their years. Same thing to me. First day, they get introduced and one guy sais "hey this another co worker Jonny, He s*cks a mean C*ck, if you ever want your c*ck s*cked just ask him. Now this is how THEY joke but my friend felt akward. I recall playing football in H.S. and the white kids were the same way. I MADE the decision to quit football after my freshman year a.) due to 2 a days in august b.) do to the h0mo behaviour that was supposed to be a joke like guys walking up and grabbing your N*ts in the locker room. Sorry, I wasnt having that. Some comformed and some left. You make a choice but it doesnt excuse it.

    After the h0 mo jokes, the next day it was on to N*99er Jokes and talking about nooses and one guy saying his grandfather joined the military before they allowed women and N*99ers. He sais its what they DO ALL DAY! The ONLY reason he is privey is because they assume he is also white because he doesnt have melanin but his half african. Its funny how this just happened at the same time. He is really bothered and asked my advice. I told him get your paper if it becomes too much, just leave dont make a stink because he has no position. he is new and outnumbered same as martin was.

    [/QUOTE]

    Triple, I read that earlier post and I think it's one more should pay attention to.  We get a lot of denials that racism really exists anymore or that it's significant enough to be a concern, but anyone who's been out in the world and has overheard conversations like those you report know it's still quite common. 

    There are reports now that Incognito viewed himself (and maybe was viewed by teammates) as an "honorary" black man, and people have been using that to justify his use of the N word.  I've known other white guys who liked to think they were black and dressed in black-style fashions and used black sounding language.  I guess it helped them feel cool.  Honestly, though, that always struck me as kind of pathetic and also disrespectful both to themselves and to the black people they were imitating.  I mean really, why does it make a difference if you're black or white?  And why would it be so important to pretend you're something you're not? Respect those who are different and respect yourself--but trying to pretend you're different than who you really are shows little respect for yourself and puts the people you are imitating on some sort of unrealistic pedestal that also, in a way, dehumanizes them by exaggerating turning them into something they are probably not--i.e., something very different from who you are. 

    Anyway, I agree that no white person can use the n-word in a totally benign way.  The history and context behind the word are (at least right now) just too loaded, and I've never heard a white person use it except either disrespectfully or in a distorted attempt to be "like" black people which only emphasizes how much they feel unlike black people.  

    I played basketball as a young man a lot on public outdoor courts in Chicago--on the southside, where I was often the only white guy.  I heard blacks call each other n's all the time.  At first, it kind of shocked me, but then I understood it was a way of co-opting a term that had been used against you (or your race) and destroying its potency by making it something affectionate that you shared among friends with similar experience.  My Italian mom did the same thing when she called us W O Ps. But you can only play that game if you are of the race that the word was used against.  White people can't use the n-word in the same way because the n-word never threatened them.  It's just impossible to co-opt a term that never was used against you.  Whites who think they can use the n-word because blacks use it (or condemn the "double standard" of blacks being able to use the n-word when whites can't) really don't get it at all. It's not the word itself, but the way the word is used, that makes the difference.  And because situations are different, whites can never use the word the same way blacks can.

     

     

     

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from seawolfxs. Show seawolfxs's posts

    Re: Dolphins Teamate Says Martins Claims Overstated

    This all starts with the coaches

    A good coach should know that every player is different and you get the best out of different players different ways

    Instead they put a moron in as a team leader

    From the agent we are told that Martin should have punched out RI. really? really? What were they trying to do, get both injured?

    Stupid is as Stupid does.

    I don't know Martins issues, but it is clear he knew he was getting bum advice from the fish

    When I listened to Philbin, I smelled a rat. I think he is toast

    btw there are 2 coaches I know that don't believe in hazing Bil Walsh and BB

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: Dolphins Teamate Says Martins Claims Overstated

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TripleOG's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to CablesWyndBairn's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    At the risk of sounding insensitive or that I would ever tolerate racism...

    I've seen lots of things said in a locker room that would in no way be tolerated in the real world.  Everyone knows it's banter.  You are around a bunch of grown men and they say many things - racial or ethnic epithets, question your sexuality, the size of your knob,  you name it.  You either give it right back or you're perceived as fresh fish.  It's part of being a man, it's part of a ritual of acceptance amongst your peers, fair or not. I've come to realise as I grow a bit past my prime atlhletic years that I've dished it out as much as I've had to take it.  I've been the only caucasian in a locker room, the only Scottish-born guy in a room of Englishmen or Americans and I've been given a lot of lip for those reasons.  I'm positive I've said things in my life to others unlike me that, outside of a locker room, would have resulted in a fight.

    I can't say that I can totally relate to this Martin fellow in that I wasn't asked to dish out $15k for Vegas trips or the like.  But to me, if you're a man, stick up for yourself or be seen as a soft touch and suffer the consequences.  

       

    [/QUOTE]

    I think he made it clear how he felt when he left the team. No one is gonna say the NFL is not a grown mans league and that the culture may be normal but in the context of it STILL being a proffesional job it may have gotten out of hand due to lack of leadership. We know BB. He has been here over 10 years. He nipped it in the bud early. How can a team show that leadership with new coaches every other year?

    I dont know if you read my post on this about my friends text JUST this morning but he sent a few more.  HE just started working , with his brother with a bunch of guys in landscaping who know each and have worked their years. Same thing to me. First day, they get introduced and one guy sais "hey this another co worker Jonny, He s*cks a mean C*ck, if you ever want your c*ck s*cked just ask him. Now this is how THEY joke but my friend felt akward. I recall playing football in H.S. and the white kids were the same way. I MADE the decision to quit football after my freshman year a.) due to 2 a days in august b.) do to the h0mo behaviour that was supposed to be a joke like guys walking up and grabbing your N*ts in the locker room. Sorry, I wasnt having that. Some comformed and some left. You make a choice but it doesnt excuse it.

    After the h0 mo jokes, the next day it was on to N*99er Jokes and talking about nooses and one guy saying his grandfather joined the military before they allowed women and N*99ers. He sais its what they DO ALL DAY! The ONLY reason he is privey is because they assume he is also white because he doesnt have melanin but his half african. Its funny how this just happened at the same time. He is really bothered and asked my advice. I told him get your paper if it becomes too much, just leave dont make a stink because he has no position. he is new and outnumbered same as martin was.

    [/QUOTE]

    Triple, I read that earlier post and I think it's one more should pay attention to.  We get a lot of denials that racism really exists anymore or that it's significant enough to be a concern, but anyone who's been out in the world and has overheard conversations like those you report know it's still quite common. 

    There are reports now that Incognito viewed himself (and maybe was viewed by teammates) as an "honorary" black man, and people have been using that to justify his use of the N word.  I've known other white guys who liked to think they were black and dressed in black-style fashions and used black sounding language.  I guess it helped them feel cool.  Honestly, though, that always struck me as kind of pathetic and also disrespectful both to themselves and to the black people they were imitating.  I mean really, why does it make a difference if you're black or white?  And why would it be so important to pretend you're something you're not? Respect those who are different and respect yourself--but trying to pretend you're different than who you really are shows little respect for yourself and puts the people you are imitating on some sort of unrealistic pedestal that also, in a way, dehumanizes them by exaggerating turning them into something they are probably not--i.e., something very different from who you are. 

    Anyway, I agree that no white person can use the n-word in a totally benign way.  The history and context behind the word are (at least right now) just too loaded, and I've never heard a white person use it except either disrespectfully or in a distorted attempt to be "like" black people which only emphasizes how much they feel unlike black people.  

    I played basketball as a young man a lot on public outdoor courts in Chicago--on the southside, where I was often the only white guy.  I heard blacks call each other n's all the time.  At first, it kind of shocked me, but then I understood it was a way of co-opting a term that had been used against you (or your race) and destroying its potency by making it something affectionate that you shared among friends with similar experience.  My Italian mom did the same thing when she called us W O Ps. But you can only play that game if you are of the race that the word was used against.  White people can't use the n-word in the same way because the n-word never threatened them.  It's just impossible to co-opt a term that never was used against you.  Whites who think they can use the n-word because blacks use it (or condemn the "double standard" of blacks being able to use the n-word when whites can't) really don't get it at all. It's not the word itself, but the way the word is used, that makes the difference.  And because situations are different, whites can never use the word the same way blacks can.

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Pro, you are not the arbiter of morality. You don't get to decide what people can say to each other.  I would not want to live under you totalitarian rules where you dictate what language is appropriate.  If there's an objective morality then please tell us what it is and where it comes from.  If not quit trying to speak for Martin, all black people, and all white people. The arrogance of telling us about what people can talk about and how to control locker rooms is astounding.  You've never been anywhere near an NFL locker room or professionals at that caliber.  You have no clue.  You don't know Martin or Incognito, your just projecting your own morals on to people who you don't know.  

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattC05. Show MattC05's posts

    Re: Dolphins Teamate Says Martins Claims Overstated

    Ian Rapoport @RapSheet 39m

    2 sources familiar with Jonathan Martin's situation: "More evidence is coming" to implicate Richie Incognito as a bully to Martin.

    ------------------------

    I'm siding with Martin so far, but keeping an open mind.  But whichever way this shakes out, this is one fascinating story that just keeps on coming.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Dolphins Teamate Says Martins Claims Overstated

    In response to shenanigan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TripleOG's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to CablesWyndBairn's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    At the risk of sounding insensitive or that I would ever tolerate racism...

    I've seen lots of things said in a locker room that would in no way be tolerated in the real world.  Everyone knows it's banter.  You are around a bunch of grown men and they say many things - racial or ethnic epithets, question your sexuality, the size of your knob,  you name it.  You either give it right back or you're perceived as fresh fish.  It's part of being a man, it's part of a ritual of acceptance amongst your peers, fair or not. I've come to realise as I grow a bit past my prime atlhletic years that I've dished it out as much as I've had to take it.  I've been the only caucasian in a locker room, the only Scottish-born guy in a room of Englishmen or Americans and I've been given a lot of lip for those reasons.  I'm positive I've said things in my life to others unlike me that, outside of a locker room, would have resulted in a fight.

    I can't say that I can totally relate to this Martin fellow in that I wasn't asked to dish out $15k for Vegas trips or the like.  But to me, if you're a man, stick up for yourself or be seen as a soft touch and suffer the consequences.  

       

    [/QUOTE]

    I think he made it clear how he felt when he left the team. No one is gonna say the NFL is not a grown mans league and that the culture may be normal but in the context of it STILL being a proffesional job it may have gotten out of hand due to lack of leadership. We know BB. He has been here over 10 years. He nipped it in the bud early. How can a team show that leadership with new coaches every other year?

    I dont know if you read my post on this about my friends text JUST this morning but he sent a few more.  HE just started working , with his brother with a bunch of guys in landscaping who know each and have worked their years. Same thing to me. First day, they get introduced and one guy sais "hey this another co worker Jonny, He s*cks a mean C*ck, if you ever want your c*ck s*cked just ask him. Now this is how THEY joke but my friend felt akward. I recall playing football in H.S. and the white kids were the same way. I MADE the decision to quit football after my freshman year a.) due to 2 a days in august b.) do to the h0mo behaviour that was supposed to be a joke like guys walking up and grabbing your N*ts in the locker room. Sorry, I wasnt having that. Some comformed and some left. You make a choice but it doesnt excuse it.

    After the h0 mo jokes, the next day it was on to N*99er Jokes and talking about nooses and one guy saying his grandfather joined the military before they allowed women and N*99ers. He sais its what they DO ALL DAY! The ONLY reason he is privey is because they assume he is also white because he doesnt have melanin but his half african. Its funny how this just happened at the same time. He is really bothered and asked my advice. I told him get your paper if it becomes too much, just leave dont make a stink because he has no position. he is new and outnumbered same as martin was.

    [/QUOTE]

    Triple, I read that earlier post and I think it's one more should pay attention to.  We get a lot of denials that racism really exists anymore or that it's significant enough to be a concern, but anyone who's been out in the world and has overheard conversations like those you report know it's still quite common. 

    There are reports now that Incognito viewed himself (and maybe was viewed by teammates) as an "honorary" black man, and people have been using that to justify his use of the N word.  I've known other white guys who liked to think they were black and dressed in black-style fashions and used black sounding language.  I guess it helped them feel cool.  Honestly, though, that always struck me as kind of pathetic and also disrespectful both to themselves and to the black people they were imitating.  I mean really, why does it make a difference if you're black or white?  And why would it be so important to pretend you're something you're not? Respect those who are different and respect yourself--but trying to pretend you're different than who you really are shows little respect for yourself and puts the people you are imitating on some sort of unrealistic pedestal that also, in a way, dehumanizes them by exaggerating turning them into something they are probably not--i.e., something very different from who you are. 

    Anyway, I agree that no white person can use the n-word in a totally benign way.  The history and context behind the word are (at least right now) just too loaded, and I've never heard a white person use it except either disrespectfully or in a distorted attempt to be "like" black people which only emphasizes how much they feel unlike black people.  

    I played basketball as a young man a lot on public outdoor courts in Chicago--on the southside, where I was often the only white guy.  I heard blacks call each other n's all the time.  At first, it kind of shocked me, but then I understood it was a way of co-opting a term that had been used against you (or your race) and destroying its potency by making it something affectionate that you shared among friends with similar experience.  My Italian mom did the same thing when she called us W O Ps. But you can only play that game if you are of the race that the word was used against.  White people can't use the n-word in the same way because the n-word never threatened them.  It's just impossible to co-opt a term that never was used against you.  Whites who think they can use the n-word because blacks use it (or condemn the "double standard" of blacks being able to use the n-word when whites can't) really don't get it at all. It's not the word itself, but the way the word is used, that makes the difference.  And because situations are different, whites can never use the word the same way blacks can.

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Pro, you are not the arbiter of morality. You don't get to decide what people can say to each other.  I would not want to live under you totalitarian rules where you dictate what language is appropriate.  If there's an objective morality then please tell us what it is and where it comes from.  If not quit trying to speak for Martin, all black people, and all white people. The arrogance of telling us about what people can talk about and how to control locker rooms is astounding.  You've never been anywhere near an NFL locker room or professionals at that caliber.  You have no clue.  You don't know Martin or Incognito, your just projecting your own morals on to people who you don't know.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Hey, you're free to call your black co-workers "n's" if that's what you want to do.  I think your employer, though, will quite quickly become a more effective arbiter of morality than I could ever be.  Dishonorable discharge, no?

     

     

     

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: Dolphins Teamate Says Martins Claims Overstated

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to shenanigan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TripleOG's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to CablesWyndBairn's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    At the risk of sounding insensitive or that I would ever tolerate racism...

    I've seen lots of things said in a locker room that would in no way be tolerated in the real world.  Everyone knows it's banter.  You are around a bunch of grown men and they say many things - racial or ethnic epithets, question your sexuality, the size of your knob,  you name it.  You either give it right back or you're perceived as fresh fish.  It's part of being a man, it's part of a ritual of acceptance amongst your peers, fair or not. I've come to realise as I grow a bit past my prime atlhletic years that I've dished it out as much as I've had to take it.  I've been the only caucasian in a locker room, the only Scottish-born guy in a room of Englishmen or Americans and I've been given a lot of lip for those reasons.  I'm positive I've said things in my life to others unlike me that, outside of a locker room, would have resulted in a fight.

    I can't say that I can totally relate to this Martin fellow in that I wasn't asked to dish out $15k for Vegas trips or the like.  But to me, if you're a man, stick up for yourself or be seen as a soft touch and suffer the consequences.  

       

    [/QUOTE]

    I think he made it clear how he felt when he left the team. No one is gonna say the NFL is not a grown mans league and that the culture may be normal but in the context of it STILL being a proffesional job it may have gotten out of hand due to lack of leadership. We know BB. He has been here over 10 years. He nipped it in the bud early. How can a team show that leadership with new coaches every other year?

    I dont know if you read my post on this about my friends text JUST this morning but he sent a few more.  HE just started working , with his brother with a bunch of guys in landscaping who know each and have worked their years. Same thing to me. First day, they get introduced and one guy sais "hey this another co worker Jonny, He s*cks a mean C*ck, if you ever want your c*ck s*cked just ask him. Now this is how THEY joke but my friend felt akward. I recall playing football in H.S. and the white kids were the same way. I MADE the decision to quit football after my freshman year a.) due to 2 a days in august b.) do to the h0mo behaviour that was supposed to be a joke like guys walking up and grabbing your N*ts in the locker room. Sorry, I wasnt having that. Some comformed and some left. You make a choice but it doesnt excuse it.

    After the h0 mo jokes, the next day it was on to N*99er Jokes and talking about nooses and one guy saying his grandfather joined the military before they allowed women and N*99ers. He sais its what they DO ALL DAY! The ONLY reason he is privey is because they assume he is also white because he doesnt have melanin but his half african. Its funny how this just happened at the same time. He is really bothered and asked my advice. I told him get your paper if it becomes too much, just leave dont make a stink because he has no position. he is new and outnumbered same as martin was.

    [/QUOTE]

    Triple, I read that earlier post and I think it's one more should pay attention to.  We get a lot of denials that racism really exists anymore or that it's significant enough to be a concern, but anyone who's been out in the world and has overheard conversations like those you report know it's still quite common. 

    There are reports now that Incognito viewed himself (and maybe was viewed by teammates) as an "honorary" black man, and people have been using that to justify his use of the N word.  I've known other white guys who liked to think they were black and dressed in black-style fashions and used black sounding language.  I guess it helped them feel cool.  Honestly, though, that always struck me as kind of pathetic and also disrespectful both to themselves and to the black people they were imitating.  I mean really, why does it make a difference if you're black or white?  And why would it be so important to pretend you're something you're not? Respect those who are different and respect yourself--but trying to pretend you're different than who you really are shows little respect for yourself and puts the people you are imitating on some sort of unrealistic pedestal that also, in a way, dehumanizes them by exaggerating turning them into something they are probably not--i.e., something very different from who you are. 

    Anyway, I agree that no white person can use the n-word in a totally benign way.  The history and context behind the word are (at least right now) just too loaded, and I've never heard a white person use it except either disrespectfully or in a distorted attempt to be "like" black people which only emphasizes how much they feel unlike black people.  

    I played basketball as a young man a lot on public outdoor courts in Chicago--on the southside, where I was often the only white guy.  I heard blacks call each other n's all the time.  At first, it kind of shocked me, but then I understood it was a way of co-opting a term that had been used against you (or your race) and destroying its potency by making it something affectionate that you shared among friends with similar experience.  My Italian mom did the same thing when she called us W O Ps. But you can only play that game if you are of the race that the word was used against.  White people can't use the n-word in the same way because the n-word never threatened them.  It's just impossible to co-opt a term that never was used against you.  Whites who think they can use the n-word because blacks use it (or condemn the "double standard" of blacks being able to use the n-word when whites can't) really don't get it at all. It's not the word itself, but the way the word is used, that makes the difference.  And because situations are different, whites can never use the word the same way blacks can.

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Pro, you are not the arbiter of morality. You don't get to decide what people can say to each other.  I would not want to live under you totalitarian rules where you dictate what language is appropriate.  If there's an objective morality then please tell us what it is and where it comes from.  If not quit trying to speak for Martin, all black people, and all white people. The arrogance of telling us about what people can talk about and how to control locker rooms is astounding.  You've never been anywhere near an NFL locker room or professionals at that caliber.  You have no clue.  You don't know Martin or Incognito, your just projecting your own morals on to people who you don't know.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Hey, you're free to call your black co-workers "n's" if that's what you want to do.  I think your employer, though, will quite quickly become a more effective arbiter of morality than I could ever be.  Dishonorable discharge, no?

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    There are people in the military who talk that way to each other, there are black people who let their white friends talk that way.  Its not something I would do but it's not my job to dictate to adults how they can talk to each other.  In any discrimination it's about how it's perceived.  The evidence points to race being a non issue, and the N word being a non issue In this case.  It doesn't matter if you or me or anyone else besides Martin and Incognito find the term offensive.  Martin laughed when he said it, he played the message and laughed and then he hung out with Incognito as friends.  That certainly looks like he decided to become offended later.  After a completely irrelevant prank caused him to walk out.  I'd bet money that whatever grievances Martin has with the dolphins had nothing to do with race except as a convenient scapegoat.  

    Obviously we see the world differently.  I value liberty, and I value it far higher than being polite.  I believe that west borough baptist church who picket soldiers funerals and call them killers deserve their right to speak.  Though I hate what they say the cure for silencing them is worse than the disease.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Dolphins Teamate Says Martins Claims Overstated

    In response to shenanigan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    [/QUOTE]

    There are people in the military who talk that way to each other, there are black people who let their white friends talk that way.  Its not something I would do but it's not my job to dictate to adults how they can talk to each other.  In any discrimination it's about how it's perceived.  The evidence points to race being a non issue, and the N word being a non issue In this case.  It doesn't matter if you or me or anyone else besides Martin and Incognito find the term offensive.  Martin laughed when he said it, he played the message and laughed and then he hung out with Incognito as friends.  That certainly looks like he decided to become offended later.  After a completely irrelevant prank caused him to walk out.  I'd bet money that whatever grievances Martin has with the dolphins had nothing to do with race except as a convenient scapegoat.  

    Obviously we see the world differently.  I value liberty, and I value it far higher than being polite.  I believe that west borough baptist church who picket soldiers funerals and call them killers deserve their right to speak.  Though I hate what they say the cure for silencing them is worse than the disease.

    [/QUOTE]

    Yeah, I value liberty too.  The difference, though, is that I understand that absolute liberty is an impossibility, and that the liberty of one individual can--and often does--conflict with the liberty of another.  In cases where freedoms conflict, one has to make judgments about which freedom is more worthy of protection.  I guess in my worldview the liberty to call black people "n's" ends when calling people "n's" interferes with their liberty to work without feeling harassed and threatened.  

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattC05. Show MattC05's posts

    Re: Dolphins Teamate Says Martins Claims Overstated

    AlbertBreer
    @AlbertBreer

     

    Here's @wmdavidcornwell's statement on his new client Jonathan Martin. It gets a little graphic ...

    Jonathan Martin’s toughness is not at issue. Jonathan has started every game with the Miami Dolphins since he was drafted in 2012. At Stanford, he was the anchor for Jim Harbaugh’s “smash mouth” brand of football and he protected Andrew Luck’s blind side.

    The issue is Jonathan’s treatment by his teammates. Jonathan endured harassment that went far beyond the traditional locker room hazing. For the entire season-and-a-half that he was with the Dolphins, he attempted to befriend the same teammates who subjected him to the abuse with the hope that doing so would end the harassment. This is a textbook reaction of victims of bullying. Despite these efforts, the taunting continued. Beyond the well-publicized voice mail with its racial epithet, Jonathan endured a malicious physical attack on him by a teammate, and daily vulgar comments such as the quote at the bottom. These facts are not in dispute.

    Eventually, Jonathan made a difficult choice. Despite his love for football, Jonathan left the Dolphins. Jonathan looks forward to getting back to playing football. In the meantime, he will cooperate fully with the NFL investigation.

    Quote from teammate: “We are going to run train on your sister. . . . She loves me. I am going to f*** her without a condom and c** in her c***.”"

     

     

    Albert Breer @AlbertBreer 15m

    Probably worth reiterating what I reported earlier in the week: Evidence Martin's camp had also implicated, to lesser extent, Mike Pouncey.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattC05. Show MattC05's posts

    Re: Dolphins Teamate Says Martins Claims Overstated

    In response to shenanigan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Martin laughed when he said it, he played the message and laughed and then he hung out with Incognito as friends.

    [/QUOTE]

    This, like so much in this situation, is open to debate:

    "If I'm not mistaken, this is the same guy [Martin] who was laughing about this voice mail at one point and time, first of all," receiver Brian Hartline said. "Second of all, I believe that, if you go through the whole voice mail, there's some things said that you probably shouldn't say in general, friends or not friends. But I know for a fact that I've said things to my friends that I kind of wish I never said, either.

    "With that being said, I never thought it was a death threat. I never thought he was actually going to do the things he said. If you can't take validity from one part of the voice mail, how do you take validity from the whole voice mail? You can't pick and choose what parts count and which parts don't count."

    Asked to clarify whether Martin laughed at the voice mail, Hartline hedged.

    "I just remember it was being passed around at one point as a joke. I could be mistaken."

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Dolphins Teamate Says Martins Claims Overstated

    In response to TripleOG's comment:

     


    Pro, you have stated it the best so far. I agree for the most part even though it is not confirmed.

    I think the fact that all these x players, specifically former or current miami players are doing damage control because they want it to go away but its too late. They probably payed asked these players to make a statement and make it look like nothing.  Good morning america and all the likes are on it already. I took it the same way. They wanted him to be tougher but went about it the wrong way. My question was could he play on the field?? If so, why did they care if he was shy or not. Thats my question because not performing is not performing at the end of the day but rather than CUT their 2nd round investment they chose to try to CHANGE the player and we all know as men we cant be changed. It was akward and he went along with as long as he could same as my friend is doing in his current state because he needs the work. He has a choice to leave when he wants but it doesnt make the atmosphere he is in ok.

     




     

    Yes, and if the coach and players were all complicit in the harassment they now all have an interest in banning together and trying to frame the story in a way that's favourable to them.  They may not be lying, but if the harassment was real and most of the team participated in it, then they all have an incentive to try to cover it up and make it look like Martin was at fault and not them.  The big question will be how much evidence has Martin collected.  Richie Incognito was dumb enough to leave at least one message on an answering machine.  Who knows how much other damaging stuff Martin has in his possession.  If it turns out that there are lot of these kinds of messages from multiple players, a lot of Dolphins players (and coaches and managers) could be worried that their fate might be similar to Incognito's.  

     

    _________

     

    More on Incognito--alleged to have sexually harassed a women at a golf tournament. Woman filed a police report, but no charges were filed.  

    http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/report-incognito-allegedly-sexually-harrassed-golf-worker-article-1.1510312

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from dreighver. Show dreighver's posts

    Re: Dolphins Teamate Says Martins Claims Overstated

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to TripleOG's comment:

     


    Pro, you have stated it the best so far. I agree for the most part even though it is not confirmed.

    I think the fact that all these x players, specifically former or current miami players are doing damage control because they want it to go away but its too late. They probably payed asked these players to make a statement and make it look like nothing.  Good morning america and all the likes are on it already. I took it the same way. They wanted him to be tougher but went about it the wrong way. My question was could he play on the field?? If so, why did they care if he was shy or not. Thats my question because not performing is not performing at the end of the day but rather than CUT their 2nd round investment they chose to try to CHANGE the player and we all know as men we cant be changed. It was akward and he went along with as long as he could same as my friend is doing in his current state because he needs the work. He has a choice to leave when he wants but it doesnt make the atmosphere he is in ok.

     




     

    Yes, and if the coach and players were all complicit in the harassment they now all have an interest in banning together and trying to frame the story in a way that's favourable to them.  They may not be lying, but if the harassment was real and most of the team participated in it, then they all have an incentive to try to cover it up and make it look like Martin was at fault and not them.  The big question will be how much evidence has Martin collected.  Richie Incognito was dumb enough to leave at least one message on an answering machine.  Who knows how much other damaging stuff Martin has in his possession.  If it turns out that there are lot of these kinds of messages from multiple players, a lot of Dolphins players (and coaches and managers) could be worried that their fate might be similar to Incognito's.  

     

    _________

     

    More on Incognito--alleged to have sexually harassed a women at a golf tournament. Woman filed a police report, but no charges were filed.  

    http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/report-incognito-allegedly-sexually-harrassed-golf-worker-article-1.1510312



    Well, as far as I'm concerned, Incognito had the right to molest her! It's just the way the world works! 

    We live the U.S. of A, and therefore Incognito has the liberty to do whatever he pleases, regardless of how his actions may impact others.

    The woman is just weak-minded and soft, and can't handle some good, ole' fashioned ribbing. Just boys being boys, ya know?! 

     
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