Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

     

    I also don't think we should put up with subhumans or accord them the same rights or due process that we do our own citizens who are accused of some crime in this country.  That's my view, and I don't really care what the consequences of that are or what anybody else thinks of it, thanks.



    That's your view and you have a right to hold it, but the Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, makes it clear that the due process rights are to be afforded to all "persons," citizens or not. 

    A good article on the subject here.

     
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    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    As the TV show "Jacka$$" shows, we have a subculture of rather clever but otherwise unwise people.  Some idiot will try anything if it might be doable.  Our domestic idiots trend toward watching TV, which is filled 24/7 with murers, and so they sometimes get ideas.  Here we have a guy and his kid brother randomly blasting back-of-the-pack marathon runners and spectators on Massachusetts' Patriots' Day because the folks back home planted some bombs on Russian Patriots' Day, and that's because Russia bombed Grozny flat with their artillery.  Some parts of this rather long logic chain are possibly logical.  The question is, would the brothers also have attacked the New England Patriots because they have "Patriots" in their name?

    In a hopefully unrelated note, this is my first boston.com posting that has worked in two days. 

     
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    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    In response to mia76's comment:

     

    In response to shenanigan's comment:

     

    I understand what your saying in terms of the oppression from Christianity in European history but it is simply not on a scale that is close to the wars waged for hundreds of years in the name of Islam.  More people died in the WTC than the entire Spanish inquisition. Mohommad was a warrior who had revelations from god to inspire his followers to war and the Quran is filled with those revelations.  No other religion was formed by the teachings of a warrior.  I think history shows Islamic doctrine is different in both its message and practice by many followers than other faiths.

     



    I am sorry but you seem to have a different history book than mine - The Crusades were incredibly mismanaged wars of aggression and had little to do with defending innocents but rather with conquoring territory, pillage, and rape in the name of Christianity. The fact that one of the most successful Crusades main accomplishment was the sacking of Constantinople which was a the time a great Christian city is telling.

     

    As for wars of aggression - the history of Europe is rife with religious wars of Catholic vs ___.  The history of the British Isles as well.

    The history of the New World is all about Catholics and Protestants treating native populations as sub-human and genocides with the full support of the various church authorities.

     

     



    You seem to have a different history book than any history book I have ever seen.  The Muslim Caliphate had conquered Syria, Egypt, and North Africa from the predominantly Christian Byzantine Empire, and Hispania from the Visogothic Kingdom In North Africa.  In all 1/3 of previously Christian lands had been conquered through 400 years of wars starting with Mohommad.  This was in no way a secular force, non-muslims were treated brutally under the rule.  The Byzantine Empire was under attack from those Muslim invaders.  Pope Urban the II was asked by the Byzantine ruler for help.  They responded with the first Crusade.  These are facts and they are not disputed by historians.  That is not a war of aggression in my book.

     

    The following Crusades were completed for a number of other reasons.  Some defensive, some offensive.  The Crusaders themselves were a loosely organized group who often behaved brutally to those they conquered.  

    The existence of Christian aggression in the past does not however excuse Islamic aggression in the present.  I never claimed Christians were peaceful in the past or present.  But if we are discussing who is more dangerous today than it would be intellectually dishonest to say Christians.  But again, it's not a contest of who has the best religion, it's a question of whether the Islamic doctrine teaches killing non-Muslims. 

     
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    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    In response to jri37's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    In response to jri37's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

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    Oh dear.  All I can say to that is read some reliable history of the Islamic world someday. 

    Read a history of Christian Europe in the middle ages too while you're at it.  

     

     



    I would suggest the same to you sir.

    I was specific enough in my response that you could disprove my facts If you have references.

     



     

    Sharia law is not progressive compared to today's standards in the West.  It does, however, have many components that were highly progressive compared to anything that existed in Europe until quite recently.  One simple example is that Sharia law gives women the right to divorce their husbands.  This was pretty much unheard of in Europe until recently. 

    You can look through the laws of any nation and find things that by today's Western standards are outrageously unjust.  Slavery was legal in the United States just 150 years ago.  Women couldn't vote in the US until the 1920s.  Homosexuals were subject to the death penalty in Europe and America until well into the 1800s.  Europe has not always been the friendliest place for non-Christians--certainly they have been discriminated against by law as much as non-Muslims have been discriminated against in the Middle East. Christianity is famous for its pogroms against Jews, the worst being the attempt by Hitler to completely exterminate them. And as far as violent conflict, Christian Europe has been wracked by war for centuries.  If you want to claim that the world of Islam is inherently more violent that that of Christendom, you have a tough burden of proof, because the World Wars alone were more destructive than anything that has occured elsewhere in history ever. 

    As far as the golden age of Islamic Civilization being a "myth" and your claim that most scholars and inventors during that time weren't Muslim, that's absurd and honestly sounds like nothing more than bigotry.  I'm not going to write a history of Islam here . . . there are plenty published books for that which you can read if you care to learn (I recommend this one, by the way: http://www.amazon.com/History-Islamic-Societies-Ira-Lapidus/dp/0521779332/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1366546133&sr=1-3&keywords=history+of+the+islamic+world).  I'll just add that during the Golden Age of Islamic Civilization, the Muslims were remarkably tolerant compared to anything but the modern Western world. While non-Muslims were not equals with Muslims, a significant number of Jews and Christians held positions of power, prominence, and respect.  Yes, there was an ebb and flow of tolerance and intolerance through the Muslim world, but this is the same in Christendom and elsewhere.  Generally, when cultures are prosperous and successful, they become more tolerant; when they fall under economic or political stress they become less tolerant.  The desire to find the Islamic world inherently "inferior" because of it's religion is really completely unsupported by a careful examination of the history of all the world's civilizations, Islamic and other.  It really suggests ignorance, bigotry, or (most likely) propoganda:

     

    Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed towards influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position by presenting only one side of an argument. Propaganda is usually repeated and dispersed over a wide variety of media in order to create the chosen result in audience attitudes.

    As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda, in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or uses loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the attitude toward the subject in the target audience to further a political, religious or commercial agenda. Propaganda can be used as a form of ideological or commercial warfare.

       

     

     



    Pro,  you have made some good points throughout this thread but you are way off base on Sharia Law. I could post 100's if not 1000's of examples but this 1 should suffice.

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jaqa1lgBQEE

     



    Like any "law," Sharia law is many things and interpreted many different ways.  It has been both a progressive force and a regressive one, depending on who is interpreting it and enforcing it.  The problem I have is the way so many people make broad generalizations about Islam and the Middle East based on what makes the news here, which is mostly the negative side.  Remember more than one in five people in the world is Muslim.  That's about 1.6 billion people.  There's a lot more to the story than terrorism.  In some ways, judging the Muslim world based on terrorism is like judging the US or the West based on Timothy McVeigh or Adolf Hitler or the IRA.  All those things are part of the West, but they are a small part of a very big story.

     

    My main point, though, isn't about Islam or the Middle East.  It's about America--a land that stands (I hope still) for basic principles  of justice that our Founders' enshrined in our Constitution. Those principles of justice should apply to all people, no matter how evil they or their deeds may be.  That's what America at its best has always stood for. 

    Sadly, a lot of Americans clearly don't see that anymore.

    The terrorists will win not by killing us, but by destroying our commitment to the things that make us different from them and that have made us great through our history.

    ____________

    Also, I should point out, since you linked to it, that rape is indeed forbidden and punished harshly under Sharia law, at least as it has traditionally been interpreted and enforced.  You can find many examples of societies with all sorts of different legal codes that have ignored rape and blamed and even abused the victims of rape. Sadly, that's part of human history in general and not unique to Muslim societies.  But you can't define all of Sharia law based on these kinds of events anymore than you can define US law by lynchings in the South.  

     



    I make no judgements regarding Muslim's or any religion. I have 2 daughters and view Sharia Law as applied to women in the Islamic faith as degrading, repressive, disgusting and to shorten the list just plain wrong.

     

     

     

    Certainly, the fundamentalist interpretation of Sharia Law is repressive toward women.  And like any religiously based law dating from the middle ages it's not something we'd want to make the law of our land.  However, it is unfair to judge all of Sharia Law simply based on the extreme interpretations of Islamists.  I took the following passage from Wikipedia, but it's a an accurate description of how Sharia Law provided women far more property rights until quite recently than did British common law.  This was hardly degrading . . . at least by comparison to what was practiced in the 1800s in Europe and America:  


    Up until the 20th century, Islamic law granted women certain legal rights that Western legal systems did not grant women.[202] Noah Feldman, a Harvard University law professor, has noted: "As for sexism, the [British and American] common law long denied married women any property rights or indeed legal personality apart from their husbands. When the British applied their law to Muslims in place of shariah, as they did in some colonies, the result was to strip married women of the property that Islamic law had always granted them – hardly progress toward equality of the sexes."[203]

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to jri37's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    In response to jri37's comment:

     

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    Oh dear.  All I can say to that is read some reliable history of the Islamic world someday. 

    Read a history of Christian Europe in the middle ages too while you're at it.  

     

     



    I would suggest the same to you sir.

    I was specific enough in my response that you could disprove my facts If you have references.

     



     

    Sharia law is not progressive compared to today's standards in the West.  It does, however, have many components that were highly progressive compared to anything that existed in Europe until quite recently.  One simple example is that Sharia law gives women the right to divorce their husbands.  This was pretty much unheard of in Europe until recently. 

    You can look through the laws of any nation and find things that by today's Western standards are outrageously unjust.  Slavery was legal in the United States just 150 years ago.  Women couldn't vote in the US until the 1920s.  Homosexuals were subject to the death penalty in Europe and America until well into the 1800s.  Europe has not always been the friendliest place for non-Christians--certainly they have been discriminated against by law as much as non-Muslims have been discriminated against in the Middle East. Christianity is famous for its pogroms against Jews, the worst being the attempt by Hitler to completely exterminate them. And as far as violent conflict, Christian Europe has been wracked by war for centuries.  If you want to claim that the world of Islam is inherently more violent that that of Christendom, you have a tough burden of proof, because the World Wars alone were more destructive than anything that has occured elsewhere in history ever. 

    As far as the golden age of Islamic Civilization being a "myth" and your claim that most scholars and inventors during that time weren't Muslim, that's absurd and honestly sounds like nothing more than bigotry.  I'm not going to write a history of Islam here . . . there are plenty published books for that which you can read if you care to learn (I recommend this one, by the way: http://www.amazon.com/History-Islamic-Societies-Ira-Lapidus/dp/0521779332/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1366546133&sr=1-3&keywords=history+of+the+islamic+world).  I'll just add that during the Golden Age of Islamic Civilization, the Muslims were remarkably tolerant compared to anything but the modern Western world. While non-Muslims were not equals with Muslims, a significant number of Jews and Christians held positions of power, prominence, and respect.  Yes, there was an ebb and flow of tolerance and intolerance through the Muslim world, but this is the same in Christendom and elsewhere.  Generally, when cultures are prosperous and successful, they become more tolerant; when they fall under economic or political stress they become less tolerant.  The desire to find the Islamic world inherently "inferior" because of it's religion is really completely unsupported by a careful examination of the history of all the world's civilizations, Islamic and other.  It really suggests ignorance, bigotry, or (most likely) propoganda:

     

    Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed towards influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position by presenting only one side of an argument. Propaganda is usually repeated and dispersed over a wide variety of media in order to create the chosen result in audience attitudes.

    As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda, in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or uses loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the attitude toward the subject in the target audience to further a political, religious or commercial agenda. Propaganda can be used as a form of ideological or commercial warfare.

       

     

     



    Pro,  you have made some good points throughout this thread but you are way off base on Sharia Law. I could post 100's if not 1000's of examples but this 1 should suffice.

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jaqa1lgBQEE

     



    Like any "law," Sharia law is many things and interpreted many different ways.  It has been both a progressive force and a regressive one, depending on who is interpreting it and enforcing it.  The problem I have is the way so many people make broad generalizations about Islam and the Middle East based on what makes the news here, which is mostly the negative side.  Remember more than one in five people in the world is Muslim.  That's about 1.6 billion people.  There's a lot more to the story than terrorism.  In some ways, judging the Muslim world based on terrorism is like judging the US or the West based on Timothy McVeigh or Adolf Hitler or the IRA.  All those things are part of the West, but they are a small part of a very big story.

     

    My main point, though, isn't about Islam or the Middle East.  It's about America--a land that stands (I hope still) for basic principles  of justice that our Founders' enshrined in our Constitution. Those principles of justice should apply to all people, no matter how evil they or their deeds may be.  That's what America at its best has always stood for. 

    Sadly, a lot of Americans clearly don't see that anymore.

    The terrorists will win not by killing us, but by destroying our commitment to the things that make us different from them and that have made us great through our history.

    ____________

    Also, I should point out, since you linked to it, that rape is indeed forbidden and punished harshly under Sharia law, at least as it has traditionally been interpreted and enforced.  You can find many examples of societies with all sorts of different legal codes that have ignored rape and blamed and even abused the victims of rape. Sadly, that's part of human history in general and not unique to Muslim societies.  But you can't define all of Sharia law based on these kinds of events anymore than you can define US law by lynchings in the South.  

     



    I make no judgements regarding Muslim's or any religion. I have 2 daughters and view Sharia Law as applied to women in the Islamic faith as degrading, repressive, disgusting and to shorten the list just plain wrong.

     

     

     

    Certainly, the fundamentalist interpretation of Sharia Law is repressive toward women.  And like any religiously based law dating from the middle ages it's not something we'd want to make the law of our land.  However, it is unfair to judge all of Sharia Law simply based on the extreme interpretations of Islamists.  I took the following passage from Wikipedia, but it's a an accurate description of how Sharia Law provided women far more property rights until quite recently than did British common law.  This was hardly degrading . . . at least by comparison to what was practiced in the 1800s in Europe and America:  


    Up until the 20th century, Islamic law granted women certain legal rights that Western legal systems did not grant women.[202] Noah Feldman, a Harvard University law professor, has noted: "As for sexism, the [British and American] common law long denied married women any property rights or indeed legal personality apart from their husbands. When the British applied their law to Muslims in place of shariah, as they did in some colonies, the result was to strip married women of the property that Islamic law had always granted them – hardly progress toward equality of the sexes."[203]

     



    You seem focused on deflecting the conversation.  Today the vast majority of Muslims believe in Sharia law, it is one of the mainstream beliefs of Islamic doctrine, and is installed in many Islamic countries and supported by the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR).  A central belief is: Qur'an (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females"

    Another words women will only inherit or receive half of their male counterparts.

    Do you really have so little backbone that you cannot even condemn such a blatantly sexist law?  You consistently try to justify such practices.  

    Meanwhile women TODAY living under Sharia law live as property, denied education, not allowed to drive, are oppressed and hoping for some political change but instead of trying to influence change people like you consistently justify such masogeny as "cultural beliefs that are above criticism" and label anyone a bigot who dares call such practices what they are- barbaric.  

    I hold such apologists of 7th century barbarism as responsible for women's oppression around the world as those who enacted the laws because you continue to look the other way and refuse to stand up for what is right.  As someone with two daughters I find your support shameful.

     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    I'm not apologizing for anything.  What I'm trying to do is counter blanket denounciations of an entire religion and 1.6 billion people based on stereotypes, ignorance, and bigotry. 

    Yeah, newsflash, much of the Muslim world has not yet accepted 21st century Western standards of human rights.  All I'm saying is that does not mean that Islam, the Muslim world, and Muslim people are inherently evil and irreformable. The West itself did not adopt those high standards of human rights and equality until quite recently and, in some respects, was actually behind the Muslim world until the last century or two. 

    I get the feeling that very few people have had any real experience with Muslims other, maybe, than those they encountered while serving in the military in war torn places like Iraq and Afghanistan.  I have Muslim relatives through marriage, I do business with Middle Eastern companies, I eat at the same tables as Muslims, have been to their weddings, know their children, have benefited from their charity.  These people aren't evil.  They don't want to kill people who aren't Muslim.  They don't have extreme values.  Many, in fact, are struggling to bring greater democracy and respect for human rights to their own countries against great odds thanks to dictatorships that, sadly, have often been propped up by Western powers.  I resent the broad-brush painting of people who are kind, decent human beings as violent, subhuman trash just because a few who belong to their same religion hold extreme views and act evilly.  

     

     
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    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    In response to jri37's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    In response to jri37's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    In response to jri37's comment:

     

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    In response to shenanigan's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    Oh dear.  All I can say to that is read some reliable history of the Islamic world someday. 

    Read a history of Christian Europe in the middle ages too while you're at it.  

     

     



    I would suggest the same to you sir.

    I was specific enough in my response that you could disprove my facts If you have references.

     



     

    Sharia law is not progressive compared to today's standards in the West.  It does, however, have many components that were highly progressive compared to anything that existed in Europe until quite recently.  One simple example is that Sharia law gives women the right to divorce their husbands.  This was pretty much unheard of in Europe until recently. 

    You can look through the laws of any nation and find things that by today's Western standards are outrageously unjust.  Slavery was legal in the United States just 150 years ago.  Women couldn't vote in the US until the 1920s.  Homosexuals were subject to the death penalty in Europe and America until well into the 1800s.  Europe has not always been the friendliest place for non-Christians--certainly they have been discriminated against by law as much as non-Muslims have been discriminated against in the Middle East. Christianity is famous for its pogroms against Jews, the worst being the attempt by Hitler to completely exterminate them. And as far as violent conflict, Christian Europe has been wracked by war for centuries.  If you want to claim that the world of Islam is inherently more violent that that of Christendom, you have a tough burden of proof, because the World Wars alone were more destructive than anything that has occured elsewhere in history ever. 

    As far as the golden age of Islamic Civilization being a "myth" and your claim that most scholars and inventors during that time weren't Muslim, that's absurd and honestly sounds like nothing more than bigotry.  I'm not going to write a history of Islam here . . . there are plenty published books for that which you can read if you care to learn (I recommend this one, by the way: http://www.amazon.com/History-Islamic-Societies-Ira-Lapidus/dp/0521779332/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1366546133&sr=1-3&keywords=history+of+the+islamic+world).  I'll just add that during the Golden Age of Islamic Civilization, the Muslims were remarkably tolerant compared to anything but the modern Western world. While non-Muslims were not equals with Muslims, a significant number of Jews and Christians held positions of power, prominence, and respect.  Yes, there was an ebb and flow of tolerance and intolerance through the Muslim world, but this is the same in Christendom and elsewhere.  Generally, when cultures are prosperous and successful, they become more tolerant; when they fall under economic or political stress they become less tolerant.  The desire to find the Islamic world inherently "inferior" because of it's religion is really completely unsupported by a careful examination of the history of all the world's civilizations, Islamic and other.  It really suggests ignorance, bigotry, or (most likely) propoganda:

     

    Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed towards influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position by presenting only one side of an argument. Propaganda is usually repeated and dispersed over a wide variety of media in order to create the chosen result in audience attitudes.

    As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda, in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or uses loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the attitude toward the subject in the target audience to further a political, religious or commercial agenda. Propaganda can be used as a form of ideological or commercial warfare.

       

     

     



    Pro,  you have made some good points throughout this thread but you are way off base on Sharia Law. I could post 100's if not 1000's of examples but this 1 should suffice.

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jaqa1lgBQEE

     



    Like any "law," Sharia law is many things and interpreted many different ways.  It has been both a progressive force and a regressive one, depending on who is interpreting it and enforcing it.  The problem I have is the way so many people make broad generalizations about Islam and the Middle East based on what makes the news here, which is mostly the negative side.  Remember more than one in five people in the world is Muslim.  That's about 1.6 billion people.  There's a lot more to the story than terrorism.  In some ways, judging the Muslim world based on terrorism is like judging the US or the West based on Timothy McVeigh or Adolf Hitler or the IRA.  All those things are part of the West, but they are a small part of a very big story.

     

    My main point, though, isn't about Islam or the Middle East.  It's about America--a land that stands (I hope still) for basic principles  of justice that our Founders' enshrined in our Constitution. Those principles of justice should apply to all people, no matter how evil they or their deeds may be.  That's what America at its best has always stood for. 

    Sadly, a lot of Americans clearly don't see that anymore.

    The terrorists will win not by killing us, but by destroying our commitment to the things that make us different from them and that have made us great through our history.

    ____________

    Also, I should point out, since you linked to it, that rape is indeed forbidden and punished harshly under Sharia law, at least as it has traditionally been interpreted and enforced.  You can find many examples of societies with all sorts of different legal codes that have ignored rape and blamed and even abused the victims of rape. Sadly, that's part of human history in general and not unique to Muslim societies.  But you can't define all of Sharia law based on these kinds of events anymore than you can define US law by lynchings in the South.  

     



    I make no judgements regarding Muslim's or any religion. I have 2 daughters and view Sharia Law as applied to women in the Islamic faith as degrading, repressive, disgusting and to shorten the list just plain wrong.

     

     

     

    Certainly, the fundamentalist interpretation of Sharia Law is repressive toward women.  And like any religiously based law dating from the middle ages it's not something we'd want to make the law of our land.  However, it is unfair to judge all of Sharia Law simply based on the extreme interpretations of Islamists.  I took the following passage from Wikipedia, but it's a an accurate description of how Sharia Law provided women far more property rights until quite recently than did British common law.  This was hardly degrading . . . at least by comparison to what was practiced in the 1800s in Europe and America:  


    Up until the 20th century, Islamic law granted women certain legal rights that Western legal systems did not grant women.[202] Noah Feldman, a Harvard University law professor, has noted: "As for sexism, the [British and American] common law long denied married women any property rights or indeed legal personality apart from their husbands. When the British applied their law to Muslims in place of shariah, as they did in some colonies, the result was to strip married women of the property that Islamic law had always granted them – hardly progress toward equality of the sexes."[203]

     

     



    I am going to ask 1 simple question.

     

    If you have a daughter would you want her living under Sharia Law today?



    No, but I do want her to live under the freedoms guaranteed by the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. And that includes ensuring that all persons--Muslim or otherwise--are entitled to due process should they ever be accused of a crime. 

     

     
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    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    In response to shenanigan's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    In response to jri37's comment:

     

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    Oh dear.  All I can say to that is read some reliable history of the Islamic world someday. 

    Read a history of Christian Europe in the middle ages too while you're at it.  

     

     



    I would suggest the same to you sir.

    I was specific enough in my response that you could disprove my facts If you have references.

     



     

    Sharia law is not progressive compared to today's standards in the West.  It does, however, have many components that were highly progressive compared to anything that existed in Europe until quite recently.  One simple example is that Sharia law gives women the right to divorce their husbands.  This was pretty much unheard of in Europe until recently. 

    You can look through the laws of any nation and find things that by today's Western standards are outrageously unjust.  Slavery was legal in the United States just 150 years ago.  Women couldn't vote in the US until the 1920s.  Homosexuals were subject to the death penalty in Europe and America until well into the 1800s.  Europe has not always been the friendliest place for non-Christians--certainly they have been discriminated against by law as much as non-Muslims have been discriminated against in the Middle East. Christianity is famous for its pogroms against Jews, the worst being the attempt by Hitler to completely exterminate them. And as far as violent conflict, Christian Europe has been wracked by war for centuries.  If you want to claim that the world of Islam is inherently more violent that that of Christendom, you have a tough burden of proof, because the World Wars alone were more destructive than anything that has occured elsewhere in history ever. 

    As far as the golden age of Islamic Civilization being a "myth" and your claim that most scholars and inventors during that time weren't Muslim, that's absurd and honestly sounds like nothing more than bigotry.  I'm not going to write a history of Islam here . . . there are plenty published books for that which you can read if you care to learn (I recommend this one, by the way: http://www.amazon.com/History-Islamic-Societies-Ira-Lapidus/dp/0521779332/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1366546133&sr=1-3&keywords=history+of+the+islamic+world).  I'll just add that during the Golden Age of Islamic Civilization, the Muslims were remarkably tolerant compared to anything but the modern Western world. While non-Muslims were not equals with Muslims, a significant number of Jews and Christians held positions of power, prominence, and respect.  Yes, there was an ebb and flow of tolerance and intolerance through the Muslim world, but this is the same in Christendom and elsewhere.  Generally, when cultures are prosperous and successful, they become more tolerant; when they fall under economic or political stress they become less tolerant.  The desire to find the Islamic world inherently "inferior" because of it's religion is really completely unsupported by a careful examination of the history of all the world's civilizations, Islamic and other.  It really suggests ignorance, bigotry, or (most likely) propoganda:

     

    Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed towards influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position by presenting only one side of an argument. Propaganda is usually repeated and dispersed over a wide variety of media in order to create the chosen result in audience attitudes.

    As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda, in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or uses loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the attitude toward the subject in the target audience to further a political, religious or commercial agenda. Propaganda can be used as a form of ideological or commercial warfare.

       

     

     



    Pro,  you have made some good points throughout this thread but you are way off base on Sharia Law. I could post 100's if not 1000's of examples but this 1 should suffice.

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jaqa1lgBQEE

     



    Like any "law," Sharia law is many things and interpreted many different ways.  It has been both a progressive force and a regressive one, depending on who is interpreting it and enforcing it.  The problem I have is the way so many people make broad generalizations about Islam and the Middle East based on what makes the news here, which is mostly the negative side.  Remember more than one in five people in the world is Muslim.  That's about 1.6 billion people.  There's a lot more to the story than terrorism.  In some ways, judging the Muslim world based on terrorism is like judging the US or the West based on Timothy McVeigh or Adolf Hitler or the IRA.  All those things are part of the West, but they are a small part of a very big story.

     

    My main point, though, isn't about Islam or the Middle East.  It's about America--a land that stands (I hope still) for basic principles  of justice that our Founders' enshrined in our Constitution. Those principles of justice should apply to all people, no matter how evil they or their deeds may be.  That's what America at its best has always stood for. 

    Sadly, a lot of Americans clearly don't see that anymore.

    The terrorists will win not by killing us, but by destroying our commitment to the things that make us different from them and that have made us great through our history.

    ____________

    Also, I should point out, since you linked to it, that rape is indeed forbidden and punished harshly under Sharia law, at least as it has traditionally been interpreted and enforced.  You can find many examples of societies with all sorts of different legal codes that have ignored rape and blamed and even abused the victims of rape. Sadly, that's part of human history in general and not unique to Muslim societies.  But you can't define all of Sharia law based on these kinds of events anymore than you can define US law by lynchings in the South.  

     



    I make no judgements regarding Muslim's or any religion. I have 2 daughters and view Sharia Law as applied to women in the Islamic faith as degrading, repressive, disgusting and to shorten the list just plain wrong.

     

     

     

    Certainly, the fundamentalist interpretation of Sharia Law is repressive toward women.  And like any religiously based law dating from the middle ages it's not something we'd want to make the law of our land.  However, it is unfair to judge all of Sharia Law simply based on the extreme interpretations of Islamists.  I took the following passage from Wikipedia, but it's a an accurate description of how Sharia Law provided women far more property rights until quite recently than did British common law.  This was hardly degrading . . . at least by comparison to what was practiced in the 1800s in Europe and America:  


    Up until the 20th century, Islamic law granted women certain legal rights that Western legal systems did not grant women.[202] Noah Feldman, a Harvard University law professor, has noted: "As for sexism, the [British and American] common law long denied married women any property rights or indeed legal personality apart from their husbands. When the British applied their law to Muslims in place of shariah, as they did in some colonies, the result was to strip married women of the property that Islamic law had always granted them – hardly progress toward equality of the sexes."[203]

     

     



    You seem focused on deflecting the conversation.  Today the vast majority of Muslims believe in Sharia law, it is one of the mainstream beliefs of Islamic doctrine, and is installed in many Islamic countries and supported by the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR).  A central belief is: Qur'an (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females"

     

    Another words women will only inherit or receive half of their male counterparts.

    Do you really have so little backbone that you cannot even condemn such a blatantly sexist law?  You consistently try to justify such practices.  

    Meanwhile women TODAY living under Sharia law live as property, denied education, not allowed to drive, are oppressed and hoping for some political change but instead of trying to influence change people like you consistently justify such masogeny as "cultural beliefs that are above criticism" and label anyone a bigot who dares call such practices what they are- barbaric.  

    I hold such apologists of 7th century barbarism as responsible for women's oppression around the world as those who enacted the laws because you continue to look the other way and refuse to stand up for what is right.  As someone with two daughters I find your support shameful.



    Oddly, I just got off the phone with a Muslim relative who was brimming with pride at his daughter's acceptance to a prestigious university.  I'm not defending misogyny.  I'm defending people who aren't misogynists from being branded as such just because some people have limited understanding of the full diversity of their history and religion. 

     

     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from portfolio1. Show portfolio1's posts

    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    mia, please show me the part where I justified every action of the U.S. or her allies in the Middle East in the last 85 years. I'm confining myself to the here and now and I'm talking solely about protecting ourselves from foreign terrorists who would do harm to Americans here. I don't think we should be in Iraq or Afghanistan at all. I think we should exploit our domestic energy supplies to a far greater extent and remove ourselves from that region to the extent possible. I truly don't care what they do to each other and that includes Israel. Why should I care what happens in Syria or Libya or anywhere else in that part of the world? Answer: oil, otherwise it would be the same as sub-Saharan Africa and equally inconsequential. We can't afford to be the world's policeman any more. If they all want to kill each other, so be it. 

    I also don't think we should put up with subhumans or accord them the same rights or due process that we do our own citizens who are accused of some crime in this country.  That's my view, and I don't really care what the consequences of that are or what anybody else thinks of it, thanks.



    Muz....

    You said "I also don't think we should put up with subhumans or accord them the same rights or due process "

    With all due respect there are two things I want to say to this:

    1. Dehumanzing a group of people is how bigotry works. It is how the Jews were butchered in Germany and Europe.. many times over many centuries. It was how the American Indian was treated... It was how slavery was justified. It is always so. So I ask that you take care in how you look at this and how you articulate. Because ultimately it matters.

    2. The VERY point of America is to treat EVERY person with the same rule of law. TO decide to not do so when you do not feel like it is to destroy the greatness of America. The rule of law does not let evil go unpunished nor does it falter in securing our safety. Nothing is served by destroying America.

    I suspect that your words are at least in part rhetorical. That perhaps it is the furiousness we all feel, the outrage we all feel towards evil actions. But we can stand tall, we can defend ourselves and we can bring evil people to justice by using the very strength of American justice.

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    I don't even know where to start here.  First you seem to be focused on Christian intolerance in the past as though that justifies Islamic intolerance in the present.  This is not about who's religion is worst, it's about whether Islamic doctrine specifically tells believers to kill in the name of Islam.  Muslims, Christians and people of every faith have killed people around the world for various reasons unrelated to religion.  But if people believe they are divinely commanded to kill, or have a justification to kill through their ideology than we should not pretend that ideology deserves to be respected.  Very few people from the KKK killed, should we say only a few kill, don't judge all KKK members by those few that kill?  No, we say that their beliefs are hateful and incompatible with human rights.  Are we bigots for judging them that way?

     

    Let's go to your first paragraph that Sharia law was progressive.  We are talking about a time post Roman and Greek society so any law that believes in death to apostates, gays, and those who insult Mohommad could hardly be progressive.  Women could divorce I'll give you that, however they must receive permission from a judge who is a man to do so.  You say that that as if its indicative of equal rights under Sharia law which I can only believe is to misinform people reading your post (propaganda), since you know the Quran and Hadith specifically outlines womens inferiority to men.  

     

    Qur'an (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females"

     

    Muslim (4:1039) - "A'isha said [to Muhammad]: 'You have made us equal to the dogs and the asses'"  These are the words of Muhammad's favorite wife, complaining of the role assigned to women under Islam.

     

    Your second paragraph is a mess of deflection.  Islam is an ideology and we can criticize the ideology the same as we would Nazi, or KKK, or Christian, or Republican ideology.

     

    "If you want to claim that the world of Islam is inherently more violent that that of Christendom, you have a tough burden of proof"

     

    I made no such claim, but its rather obvious thats true today.  Perhaps you would like to take a vacation to Syria.  When Christians start blowing themselves up every week yelling "god is great" I will be more worried.  but lets not stick our heads in the sand and pretend that what we see is an illusion.  You seem to believe that if you can prove Christianity killed in the name of religion than that justifies Islamic killing in the name of religion.  You've done so by citing secular wars and labeling them Christian wars.  Do you think WW1 or WW2 were religous wars?  Were the Japanese Christians?  Was Mussolini a Christian?  Were the Nazis a Christian organization?  Who stopped the Nazis?  More Christians and Jews etc.  The world wars were no more a Christian war than the Iran-Iraq conflict was an Islamic war.  They were political wars.  The ideologies that started those wars have been discredited (Naziism, Fascism).  Ideologies matter, some are more dangerous than others.

     

    I'll agree there have been unjust laws throughout history all over the world.  Where we disagree is that you seem to want to name any law in Europe that once existed a Christian law and overlook the fact that Sharia law is in fact Islamic law, and is still practiced today.  First, there is no Christian law, there is no Hindu law, there are no atheist laws.  There are laws specific to countries.  Islam is unique in that there is an Islamic law that is outlined in Islamic doctrine and it is called Sharia law.  These laws are unchanged since Mohommad's time.  Sharia law is accepted nearly universally by all Muslims and is the ruling law in many middle eastern countries.  It is the stated goal of the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) and many other Islamic groups to bring Sharia law to America.

    "Those who stay in America should be open to society without melting, keeping Mosques open so anyone can come and learn about Islam. If you choose to live here, you have a responsibility to deliver the message of Islam ... Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth."  - Omar Ahmad  Co-founder of the Council on American-Islamic Relations

     

    The European court of human rights in Strasbourg has ruled that "Sharia Law is not compatible with democracy."  http://www.secularism.org.uk/sharia-law.html

     

     "Generally, when cultures are prosperous and successful, they become more tolerant"

     

    I disagree, the opposite is true, when cultures become more tolerant they become more successful and prosperous.  If I were to tell you I believe that a theocracy is counterproductive to prosperity would you disagree.  If I said a Christian theocracy that believes the bible is a source of scientific knowledge is counterproductive to prosperity and innovation would you disagree?  But if I say the same of and Islamic theocracy than you would call me a bigot.  So yes, I call the Islamic golden age a myth because it was not because but inspire of Islamic law that there was innovation.  I would say the same about Christians or any other theocratic government that refused thoughts that countered religous doctrine.  If prosperity breeds tolerance than why aren't those Islamic lands that were so prosperous in the past still that way today.  Do you really think that a government that uses the Quran as a tool of education is now or ever was a progressive one?  Fact is, as sharia law was progressively implemented scientific contributions declined.  That is why I find any such revisionist history painting any religion as a catalyst to progressive thinking a myth.

     

    "While non-Muslims were not equals with Muslims..."  

     

    This little tidbit seems important.  

     

    Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. Quran Surah. 9:29

     

    Another basic tenet of Sharia still in practice today.  But who are we to judge, oppression of religous freedom is compatible with American values right?  It's only a small percentage of American Muslims that support that right?  Polls show 40% of American Muslims want Sharia law in America and 9% are undecided.

     

    But, yes at different times different leaders were more or less secular in Islamic ruled areas but ultimately those periods were few and far between and as we can see today such secular beliefs were not able to overcome the religous ones.  

     

     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    In response to jri37's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    In response to jri37's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    In response to jri37's comment:

     

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    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    Oh dear.  All I can say to that is read some reliable history of the Islamic world someday. 

    Read a history of Christian Europe in the middle ages too while you're at it.  

     

     



    I would suggest the same to you sir.

    I was specific enough in my response that you could disprove my facts If you have references.

     



     

    Sharia law is not progressive compared to today's standards in the West.  It does, however, have many components that were highly progressive compared to anything that existed in Europe until quite recently.  One simple example is that Sharia law gives women the right to divorce their husbands.  This was pretty much unheard of in Europe until recently. 

    You can look through the laws of any nation and find things that by today's Western standards are outrageously unjust.  Slavery was legal in the United States just 150 years ago.  Women couldn't vote in the US until the 1920s.  Homosexuals were subject to the death penalty in Europe and America until well into the 1800s.  Europe has not always been the friendliest place for non-Christians--certainly they have been discriminated against by law as much as non-Muslims have been discriminated against in the Middle East. Christianity is famous for its pogroms against Jews, the worst being the attempt by Hitler to completely exterminate them. And as far as violent conflict, Christian Europe has been wracked by war for centuries.  If you want to claim that the world of Islam is inherently more violent that that of Christendom, you have a tough burden of proof, because the World Wars alone were more destructive than anything that has occured elsewhere in history ever. 

    As far as the golden age of Islamic Civilization being a "myth" and your claim that most scholars and inventors during that time weren't Muslim, that's absurd and honestly sounds like nothing more than bigotry.  I'm not going to write a history of Islam here . . . there are plenty published books for that which you can read if you care to learn (I recommend this one, by the way: http://www.amazon.com/History-Islamic-Societies-Ira-Lapidus/dp/0521779332/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1366546133&sr=1-3&keywords=history+of+the+islamic+world).  I'll just add that during the Golden Age of Islamic Civilization, the Muslims were remarkably tolerant compared to anything but the modern Western world. While non-Muslims were not equals with Muslims, a significant number of Jews and Christians held positions of power, prominence, and respect.  Yes, there was an ebb and flow of tolerance and intolerance through the Muslim world, but this is the same in Christendom and elsewhere.  Generally, when cultures are prosperous and successful, they become more tolerant; when they fall under economic or political stress they become less tolerant.  The desire to find the Islamic world inherently "inferior" because of it's religion is really completely unsupported by a careful examination of the history of all the world's civilizations, Islamic and other.  It really suggests ignorance, bigotry, or (most likely) propoganda:

     

    Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed towards influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position by presenting only one side of an argument. Propaganda is usually repeated and dispersed over a wide variety of media in order to create the chosen result in audience attitudes.

    As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda, in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or uses loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the attitude toward the subject in the target audience to further a political, religious or commercial agenda. Propaganda can be used as a form of ideological or commercial warfare.

       

     

     



    Pro,  you have made some good points throughout this thread but you are way off base on Sharia Law. I could post 100's if not 1000's of examples but this 1 should suffice.

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jaqa1lgBQEE

     



    Like any "law," Sharia law is many things and interpreted many different ways.  It has been both a progressive force and a regressive one, depending on who is interpreting it and enforcing it.  The problem I have is the way so many people make broad generalizations about Islam and the Middle East based on what makes the news here, which is mostly the negative side.  Remember more than one in five people in the world is Muslim.  That's about 1.6 billion people.  There's a lot more to the story than terrorism.  In some ways, judging the Muslim world based on terrorism is like judging the US or the West based on Timothy McVeigh or Adolf Hitler or the IRA.  All those things are part of the West, but they are a small part of a very big story.

     

    My main point, though, isn't about Islam or the Middle East.  It's about America--a land that stands (I hope still) for basic principles  of justice that our Founders' enshrined in our Constitution. Those principles of justice should apply to all people, no matter how evil they or their deeds may be.  That's what America at its best has always stood for. 

    Sadly, a lot of Americans clearly don't see that anymore.

    The terrorists will win not by killing us, but by destroying our commitment to the things that make us different from them and that have made us great through our history.

    ____________

    Also, I should point out, since you linked to it, that rape is indeed forbidden and punished harshly under Sharia law, at least as it has traditionally been interpreted and enforced.  You can find many examples of societies with all sorts of different legal codes that have ignored rape and blamed and even abused the victims of rape. Sadly, that's part of human history in general and not unique to Muslim societies.  But you can't define all of Sharia law based on these kinds of events anymore than you can define US law by lynchings in the South.  

     



    I make no judgements regarding Muslim's or any religion. I have 2 daughters and view Sharia Law as applied to women in the Islamic faith as degrading, repressive, disgusting and to shorten the list just plain wrong.

     

     

     

    Certainly, the fundamentalist interpretation of Sharia Law is repressive toward women.  And like any religiously based law dating from the middle ages it's not something we'd want to make the law of our land.  However, it is unfair to judge all of Sharia Law simply based on the extreme interpretations of Islamists.  I took the following passage from Wikipedia, but it's a an accurate description of how Sharia Law provided women far more property rights until quite recently than did British common law.  This was hardly degrading . . . at least by comparison to what was practiced in the 1800s in Europe and America:  


    Up until the 20th century, Islamic law granted women certain legal rights that Western legal systems did not grant women.[202] Noah Feldman, a Harvard University law professor, has noted: "As for sexism, the [British and American] common law long denied married women any property rights or indeed legal personality apart from their husbands. When the British applied their law to Muslims in place of shariah, as they did in some colonies, the result was to strip married women of the property that Islamic law had always granted them – hardly progress toward equality of the sexes."[203]

     

     



    I am going to ask 1 simple question.

     

    If you have a daughter would you want her living under Sharia Law today?

     



    No, but I do want her to live under the freedoms guaranteed by the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. And that includes ensuring that all persons--Muslim or otherwise--are entitled to due process should they ever be accused of a crime. 

     

     

     

     



    I don't disagree with that. I actually agree with you regarding due process for this s c*mbag. Everyone in our country is entitled to that right. As a father of 2 daughters I thought you were a tad defensive of how you thought people were generalizing the interpretation of Sharia Law. Perhaps the I misread your intention of what you wrote regarding Sharia.

     



    Jri, I get annoyed with these blanket denounciations of Islam as evil in large part because I have dear relatives who are Muslim and have seen what they have to put up with because so many people make assumptions about what they are like and what they believe in just because of their faith.  My family happens, through marriage, to be quite diverse.  We grew up Christian (though I'm not religious myself), but one of my siblings is married to a Jew and the other to a Muslim Arab, so I have close relations with people of all three of the Abrahamic religions.  My Muslim relatives do follow certain parts of Sharia law and have respect for it as a traditional religious law, much as Orthodox Jews have respect for the Halacha (which also doesn't treat women as equals to men, as did few systems of law anywhere until the twentieth century).  For instance, my Muslim relatives don't eat pork and don't drink alcohol. But all their daughters are highly educated, independent women (though some choose to wear the Hijab and others don't). My "defense" of Sharia was only intended to point out that Sharia is a broad traditional set of laws that have progressive and regressive elements.  The extremists in Islam today try to emphasize repressive aspects of Sharia and make those repressive aspects mandatory in ways that I completely agree with you are disgusting.  But those extremists represent just one current in a rather broad and complex set of laws and traditions.  I just wish Americans knew more about the complexity of the non-Western world and would not paint Islam with a single broad brush.  Of course, I fully acknowledge that part of the reason Islam is painted so negatively is because extremist Muslims have presented it that way -- and they are to blame for the rest of the world's negative perceptions.  But it's worth being reminded that the extremists really are only a portion of the Muslim world and there are many more Muslims who Americans would find are far more similar to them than different, if only they knew them personally. 

    As far as Sharia . . . of course I personally wouldn't want to live under it.  Nor do I want to adopt Halacha or any other religiously based law.  I'm a secularist and I have great admiration for the system that our Founding Fathers created and that has expanded throughout most of the West.  I'm not a cultural relativist either.  I think this system is the best.  At the same time, I understand that no society has ever been perfect and even the Western and American tradition has some horrific black marks on it. (Slavery is just one example.)  It strikes me as very hypocritical to roundly condemn the Middle East for being regressive toward women when even here in the cradle of democracy, we tolerated slavery until just over 100 years ago.  In fact, slavery is so recent, I actually own a photograph of my father as a little boy (he was about four years old) in his back yard in Georgia in the 1930s standing with an elderly black gentleman (about 90 years old) who had been born a slave in my father's family! That really hit home to me how recent some of our own "barbarism" is. 

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    In response to portfolio1's comment:

     

    ...

    Muz....

     

    You said "I also don't think we should put up with subhumans or accord them the same rights or due process "

    With all due respect there are two things I want to say to this:

    1. Dehumanzing a group of people is how bigotry works. It is how the Jews were butchered in Germany and Europe.. many times over many centuries. It was how the American Indian was treated... It was how slavery was justified. It is always so. So I ask that you take care in how you look at this and how you articulate. Because ultimately it matters.

    2. The VERY point of America is to treat EVERY person with the same rule of law. TO decide to not do so when you do not feel like it is to destroy the greatness of America. The rule of law does not let evil go unpunished nor does it falter in securing our safety. Nothing is served by destroying America.

    I suspect that your words are at least in part rhetorical. That perhaps it is the furiousness we all feel, the outrage we all feel towards evil actions. But we can stand tall, we can defend ourselves and we can bring evil people to justice by using the very strength of American justice.

     

     



    The difference is I'm not singling out any ethnic group or religion or anything of the sort. I'm singling out those who would indiscriminately kill and maim, women, children, whoever happens to be there. I don't care about their religious beliefs or what drives them to do it. It's the act that I'm talking about.

    It just happens that the vast majority of these perpetrators are radical Muslims. A very small percentage of Muslims are terrorists of course, but an awful high percentage of terrorists are Muslim. 

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    In response to shenanigan's comment:

     

    Another basic tenet of Sharia still in practice today.  But who are we to judge, oppression of religous freedom is compatible with American values right?  It's only a small percentage of American Muslims that support that right?  Polls show 40% of American Muslims want Sharia law in America and 9% are undecided.

     



    I guess you spend time reading crazy right-wing news sites?  That poll was a Wenzel poll (republican pollster often considered biased) which was conducted for WND, a conservative website that was big promoter of the "birther" movement.  It's pure propoganda.  

     

     
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    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to shenanigan's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    In response to jri37's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

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    Oh dear.  All I can say to that is read some reliable history of the Islamic world someday. 

    Read a history of Christian Europe in the middle ages too while you're at it.  

     

     



    I would suggest the same to you sir.

    I was specific enough in my response that you could disprove my facts If you have references.

     



     

    Sharia law is not progressive compared to today's standards in the West.  It does, however, have many components that were highly progressive compared to anything that existed in Europe until quite recently.  One simple example is that Sharia law gives women the right to divorce their husbands.  This was pretty much unheard of in Europe until recently. 

    You can look through the laws of any nation and find things that by today's Western standards are outrageously unjust.  Slavery was legal in the United States just 150 years ago.  Women couldn't vote in the US until the 1920s.  Homosexuals were subject to the death penalty in Europe and America until well into the 1800s.  Europe has not always been the friendliest place for non-Christians--certainly they have been discriminated against by law as much as non-Muslims have been discriminated against in the Middle East. Christianity is famous for its pogroms against Jews, the worst being the attempt by Hitler to completely exterminate them. And as far as violent conflict, Christian Europe has been wracked by war for centuries.  If you want to claim that the world of Islam is inherently more violent that that of Christendom, you have a tough burden of proof, because the World Wars alone were more destructive than anything that has occured elsewhere in history ever. 

    As far as the golden age of Islamic Civilization being a "myth" and your claim that most scholars and inventors during that time weren't Muslim, that's absurd and honestly sounds like nothing more than bigotry.  I'm not going to write a history of Islam here . . . there are plenty published books for that which you can read if you care to learn (I recommend this one, by the way: http://www.amazon.com/History-Islamic-Societies-Ira-Lapidus/dp/0521779332/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1366546133&sr=1-3&keywords=history+of+the+islamic+world).  I'll just add that during the Golden Age of Islamic Civilization, the Muslims were remarkably tolerant compared to anything but the modern Western world. While non-Muslims were not equals with Muslims, a significant number of Jews and Christians held positions of power, prominence, and respect.  Yes, there was an ebb and flow of tolerance and intolerance through the Muslim world, but this is the same in Christendom and elsewhere.  Generally, when cultures are prosperous and successful, they become more tolerant; when they fall under economic or political stress they become less tolerant.  The desire to find the Islamic world inherently "inferior" because of it's religion is really completely unsupported by a careful examination of the history of all the world's civilizations, Islamic and other.  It really suggests ignorance, bigotry, or (most likely) propoganda:

     

    Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed towards influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position by presenting only one side of an argument. Propaganda is usually repeated and dispersed over a wide variety of media in order to create the chosen result in audience attitudes.

    As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda, in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or uses loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the attitude toward the subject in the target audience to further a political, religious or commercial agenda. Propaganda can be used as a form of ideological or commercial warfare.

       

     

     



    Pro,  you have made some good points throughout this thread but you are way off base on Sharia Law. I could post 100's if not 1000's of examples but this 1 should suffice.

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jaqa1lgBQEE

     



    Like any "law," Sharia law is many things and interpreted many different ways.  It has been both a progressive force and a regressive one, depending on who is interpreting it and enforcing it.  The problem I have is the way so many people make broad generalizations about Islam and the Middle East based on what makes the news here, which is mostly the negative side.  Remember more than one in five people in the world is Muslim.  That's about 1.6 billion people.  There's a lot more to the story than terrorism.  In some ways, judging the Muslim world based on terrorism is like judging the US or the West based on Timothy McVeigh or Adolf Hitler or the IRA.  All those things are part of the West, but they are a small part of a very big story.

     

    My main point, though, isn't about Islam or the Middle East.  It's about America--a land that stands (I hope still) for basic principles  of justice that our Founders' enshrined in our Constitution. Those principles of justice should apply to all people, no matter how evil they or their deeds may be.  That's what America at its best has always stood for. 

    Sadly, a lot of Americans clearly don't see that anymore.

    The terrorists will win not by killing us, but by destroying our commitment to the things that make us different from them and that have made us great through our history.

    ____________

    Also, I should point out, since you linked to it, that rape is indeed forbidden and punished harshly under Sharia law, at least as it has traditionally been interpreted and enforced.  You can find many examples of societies with all sorts of different legal codes that have ignored rape and blamed and even abused the victims of rape. Sadly, that's part of human history in general and not unique to Muslim societies.  But you can't define all of Sharia law based on these kinds of events anymore than you can define US law by lynchings in the South.  

     



    I make no judgements regarding Muslim's or any religion. I have 2 daughters and view Sharia Law as applied to women in the Islamic faith as degrading, repressive, disgusting and to shorten the list just plain wrong.

     

     

     

    Certainly, the fundamentalist interpretation of Sharia Law is repressive toward women.  And like any religiously based law dating from the middle ages it's not something we'd want to make the law of our land.  However, it is unfair to judge all of Sharia Law simply based on the extreme interpretations of Islamists.  I took the following passage from Wikipedia, but it's a an accurate description of how Sharia Law provided women far more property rights until quite recently than did British common law.  This was hardly degrading . . . at least by comparison to what was practiced in the 1800s in Europe and America:  


    Up until the 20th century, Islamic law granted women certain legal rights that Western legal systems did not grant women.[202] Noah Feldman, a Harvard University law professor, has noted: "As for sexism, the [British and American] common law long denied married women any property rights or indeed legal personality apart from their husbands. When the British applied their law to Muslims in place of shariah, as they did in some colonies, the result was to strip married women of the property that Islamic law had always granted them – hardly progress toward equality of the sexes."[203]

     

     



    You seem focused on deflecting the conversation.  Today the vast majority of Muslims believe in Sharia law, it is one of the mainstream beliefs of Islamic doctrine, and is installed in many Islamic countries and supported by the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR).  A central belief is: Qur'an (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females"

     

    Another words women will only inherit or receive half of their male counterparts.

    Do you really have so little backbone that you cannot even condemn such a blatantly sexist law?  You consistently try to justify such practices.  

    Meanwhile women TODAY living under Sharia law live as property, denied education, not allowed to drive, are oppressed and hoping for some political change but instead of trying to influence change people like you consistently justify such masogeny as "cultural beliefs that are above criticism" and label anyone a bigot who dares call such practices what they are- barbaric.  

    I hold such apologists of 7th century barbarism as responsible for women's oppression around the world as those who enacted the laws because you continue to look the other way and refuse to stand up for what is right.  As someone with two daughters I find your support shameful.

     



    Oddly, I just got off the phone with a Muslim relative who was brimming with pride at his daughter's acceptance to a prestigious university.  I'm not defending misogyny.  I'm defending people who aren't misogynists from being branded as such just because some people have limited understanding of the full diversity of their history and religion. 

     

     



    Than why did you devote an entire post to trying to downplay the status of women in Islam as inferior when you know that it is supported by the vast majority of Muslims and supported repeatedly in the Quran.  If your not defending misogeny than why write such a blatantly misleading post pretending that its not a majority muslim belief around the world.  

    You sir, are a coward.  You would rather let women be oppressed than than confront oppression.  If this was 1940 you would be telling us that you knew a Nazi who was a nice guy and we can't judge them.  If this 1840 you would be telling us we cannot judge those in the south by our northern beliefs and we should not push our values on them.  And today as women are oppressed and pretend it isn't happening, you tell us fairy tales about this person or that person while ignoring the schools blowing up almost every week for women attending in Afghanistan, and women that can't drive in Saudi Arabia.  

     you don't even have the conviction to stand up for what is going on now than what good are you.

     Perhaps you should take a trip to Saudi Arabia and explain to the women that what they are living is not the real Islam.  

    After all it's only Mecca, just a country who's constitution is the Quran.  They must not understand that book as well as you.  Go to a hospital in Afghanistan and explain to women that it's just Americans being bigots, they don't understand the cultural beliefs that allow free Muslims to blow up schools.

    Qur'an (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    In response to portfolio1's comment:

     

    ...

    Muz....

     

    You said "I also don't think we should put up with subhumans or accord them the same rights or due process "

    With all due respect there are two things I want to say to this:

    1. Dehumanzing a group of people is how bigotry works. It is how the Jews were butchered in Germany and Europe.. many times over many centuries. It was how the American Indian was treated... It was how slavery was justified. It is always so. So I ask that you take care in how you look at this and how you articulate. Because ultimately it matters.

    2. The VERY point of America is to treat EVERY person with the same rule of law. TO decide to not do so when you do not feel like it is to destroy the greatness of America. The rule of law does not let evil go unpunished nor does it falter in securing our safety. Nothing is served by destroying America.

    I suspect that your words are at least in part rhetorical. That perhaps it is the furiousness we all feel, the outrage we all feel towards evil actions. But we can stand tall, we can defend ourselves and we can bring evil people to justice by using the very strength of American justice.

     

     



    The difference is I'm not singling out any ethnic group or religion or anything of the sort. I'm singling out those who would indiscriminately kill and maim, women, children, whoever happens to be there. I don't care about their religious beliefs or what drives them to do it. It's the act that I'm talking about.

    It just happens that the vast majority of these perpetrators are radical Muslims. A very small percentage of Muslims are terrorists of course, but an awful high percentage of terrorists are Muslim. 

     



    Or Tamils . . .  

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    In response to shenanigan's comment:

     

     

    Another basic tenet of Sharia still in practice today.  But who are we to judge, oppression of religous freedom is compatible with American values right?  It's only a small percentage of American Muslims that support that right?  Polls show 40% of American Muslims want Sharia law in America and 9% are undecided.

     

     



    I guess you spend time reading crazy right-wing news sites?  That poll was a Wenzel poll (republican pollster often considered biased) which was conducted for WND, a conservative website that was big promoter of the "birther" movement.  It's pure propoganda.  

     

     

     My poll is from the pew research center.

     

    http://www.aina.org/news/2013019163021.htm

     

    Do you accept them or must I find another poll to

     

    state the obvious fact that Muslims support the basic

     

    principles of Islam outlined in the Quran?

     

    Perhaps you'd like me to source that Mohommad is a prophet who was a warrior?

     

    Oh my goodness what right wing source did I get that from?  Oh, the Quran and Hadith.

     

    Those books must be right wing propaganda.



     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from patsbandwagonsince76. Show patsbandwagonsince76's posts

    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

     

    Every religion is flawed or else the more one studied and lived by the teachings the better one would be as a person.


    As you all are all arguing, fundementalist Christians become anti science gay haters and fundementalist muslems subjugate women and blow up everyone who doesn't do it their way.

    By everyones account here the best people in all the religions are the ones that ignore a large percentage of that religions  teachings! What does that tell you?

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from portfolio1. Show portfolio1's posts

    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    In response to portfolio1's comment:

     

    ...

    Muz....

     

    You said "I also don't think we should put up with subhumans or accord them the same rights or due process "

    With all due respect there are two things I want to say to this:

    1. Dehumanzing a group of people is how bigotry works. It is how the Jews were butchered in Germany and Europe.. many times over many centuries. It was how the American Indian was treated... It was how slavery was justified. It is always so. So I ask that you take care in how you look at this and how you articulate. Because ultimately it matters.

    2. The VERY point of America is to treat EVERY person with the same rule of law. TO decide to not do so when you do not feel like it is to destroy the greatness of America. The rule of law does not let evil go unpunished nor does it falter in securing our safety. Nothing is served by destroying America.

    I suspect that your words are at least in part rhetorical. That perhaps it is the furiousness we all feel, the outrage we all feel towards evil actions. But we can stand tall, we can defend ourselves and we can bring evil people to justice by using the very strength of American justice.

     

     



    The difference is I'm not singling out any ethnic group or religion or anything of the sort. I'm singling out those who would indiscriminately kill and maim, women, children, whoever happens to be there. I don't care about their religious beliefs or what drives them to do it. It's the act that I'm talking about.

    It just happens that the vast majority of these perpetrators are radical Muslims. A very small percentage of Muslims are terrorists of course, but an awful high percentage of terrorists are Muslim. 

     



    Muz,

     

    I get what you are saying... I get where your thoughts are coming from. But that IS the sort of reasoning that IS always used to jsutify bigotry and the decision to act outside the law. What did they say about Jews or the Irish or American Indians or Japanese or whoever... there was always an argument how "they" were the special source of evil. The same thing for throwing the law out the window.

    Muz, look at it this way.... IF we are always right then we do not need to worry about bigotry or about law. All we need is our own righteousness.

    Or just try it this way Muz - America IS great because it RECOGNIZES that we.. you AND me... will sometimes fall into bigotry or vigilantyism directed at a real or perceived enemy. And so we created this system so that while we protect ourselves agaisnt evil we also protect those we are OR MIGHT be innocent. In order to make sure that someone in power does not use the SAME argument you are using in order to justify evil actions we need to ALWAYS use the rule of law and to eliminate bigotry from our actions.

    Why Muz is it that we ALL know the folwing: All men are created equal... and .... the rule of law not the rule of men.

    THIS is the time to live up to American ideals. When nothing is wrong living up to our ideals is easy because there is no temptation not to.....

     

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    In response to shenanigan's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

     


    Than why did you devote an entire post to trying to downplay the status of women in Islam as inferior when you know that it is supported by the vast majority of Muslims and supported repeatedly in the Quran.  If your not defending misogeny than why write such a blatantly misleading post pretending that its not a majority muslim belief around the world.  

    The lesser status of women was a majority Christian belief until about 100 years ago too.  Please, women's rights are a new idea even in the West.  I fully support them.  I don't want to live under Sharia law.  But at the same time I'm not denouncing all Muslims as barbarians.  The Middle East and Islam is far more complex than that.  Maybe you spent a lot of time in Afghanistan or some other war torn corner of the world as a soldier and have a very negative view because of what you saw, but I know  a different side of the Islamic world that's not so oppressive and that's real too.  

    You sir, are a coward.  

    No I'm not. I completely support women's rights.  I'm just not into denouncing 1.6 billion people as completely and utterly evil and reprehensible because some parts of their society resemble our society from 150 years ago.  That seems bigoted to me. 

    You would rather let women be oppressed than than confront oppression.  If this was 1940 you would be telling us that you knew a Nazi who was a nice guy and we can't judge them.  If this 1840 you would be telling us we cannot judge those in the south by our northern beliefs and we should not push our values on them.  And today as women are oppressed and pretend it isn't happening, you tell us fairy tales about this person or that person while ignoring the schools blowing up almost every week for women attending in Afghanistan, and women that can't drive in Saudi Arabia.  

    I haven't said anything like this.  I'm just objecting to your blanket denounciations of 1.6 billion people and their religion as irredeemably evil.

     

     you don't even have the conviction to stand up for what is going on now than what good are you.

     Perhaps you should take a trip to Saudi Arabia and explain to the women that what they are living is not the real Islam.  

    I hope all the women in Saudi Arabia have full rights post haste.  I happen to know many Saudis who also would like to see Saudi Arabia move into the twentieth century. It's a complex place and not every Muslim is an extremist or a supporter of extremism.

    After all it's only Mecca, just a country who's constitution is the Quran.  They must not understand that book as well as you.  Go to a hospital in Afghanistan and explain to women that it's just Americans being bigots, they don't understand the cultural beliefs that allow free Muslims to blow up schools.

    Qur'an (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"

     Yeah, you can find quotes like that in the Bible too.  And such sentiments had legal status until quite recent times in the West too.  

    1 Corinthians 11:3
    But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

     

    1 Corinthians 14:34-36
    Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

     

    Ephesians 5:22-24
    Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

     

    Colossians 3:18
    Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

     

    1 Timothy 2:11-15
    Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing.

     

    1 Peter 3:1
    Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands.
     

     




     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    In response to shenanigan's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    In response to shenanigan's comment:

     

     

    Another basic tenet of Sharia still in practice today.  But who are we to judge, oppression of religous freedom is compatible with American values right?  It's only a small percentage of American Muslims that support that right?  Polls show 40% of American Muslims want Sharia law in America and 9% are undecided.

     

     



    I guess you spend time reading crazy right-wing news sites?  That poll was a Wenzel poll (republican pollster often considered biased) which was conducted for WND, a conservative website that was big promoter of the "birther" movement.  It's pure propoganda.  

     

     

     My poll is from the pew research center.

     

    http://www.aina.org/news/2013019163021.htm

     

    Do you accept them or must I find another poll to

     

    state the obvious fact that Muslims support the basic

     

    principles of Islam outlined in the Quran?

     

    Perhaps you'd like me to source that Mohommad is a prophet who was a warrior?

     

    Oh my goodness what right wing source did I get that from?  Oh, the Quran and Hadith.

     

    Those books must be right wing propaganda.





    Go back and read your article more carefully.  The 40% number you quote isn't from the Pew poll it's from the Wenzel poll, just as I said.  

     

     
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