Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

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    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    I just cannot believe the cowardice.  Have we become so afraid of being called "racists" that we cannot stand up for those being oppressed.  We know women are oppressed all over the world in the name of Sharia but we won't say it's wrong.  We say its a cultural belief and we can't impose our western values.  Would we say the same if it were Christians oppressing women?  We have no problem criticizing them, why the hesitancy for Islam?  Saudi Arabia is our supposed ally but we hear next to nothing about how women are property there.  

    "Its their religion, it's their choice", baloney.  Do you really think an entire country of women choose to be treated as second class citizens, not to drive.  Funny, women in other countries don't seem to be fighting to be treated the same.  Women there have no choice.  And yet in this entire post only one other person dares state the obvious that those Laws are repressive and wrong.  Pro would rather engage in moral relativism while others would rather point fingers to those in the past as an excuse to ignore the present.

    Its shameful, it really is.  It's just the tip of the iceberg but people are afraid to stand up for something so blatantly wrong and sexist.  Who are we helping by equivocating such behaviors?  Would women have been given the right to vote in America if we just kept pointing out hothat was such a common practice in this country or that.  Right is right, I don't care the time or the place.  Sharia is wrong, I won't pretend it's merely a cultural difference.

     
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    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to shenanigan's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    In response to shenanigan's comment:

     

     

    Another basic tenet of Sharia still in practice today.  But who are we to judge, oppression of religous freedom is compatible with American values right?  It's only a small percentage of American Muslims that support that right?  Polls show 40% of American Muslims want Sharia law in America and 9% are undecided.

     

     



    I guess you spend time reading crazy right-wing news sites?  That poll was a Wenzel poll (republican pollster often considered biased) which was conducted for WND, a conservative website that was big promoter of the "birther" movement.  It's pure propoganda.  

     

     

     My poll is from the pew research center.

     

    http://www.aina.org/news/2013019163021.htm

     

    Do you accept them or must I find another poll to

     

    state the obvious fact that Muslims support the basic

     

    principles of Islam outlined in the Quran?

     

    Perhaps you'd like me to source that Mohommad is a prophet who was a warrior?

     

    Oh my goodness what right wing source did I get that from?  Oh, the Quran and Hadith.

     

    Those books must be right wing propaganda.



     



    Go back and read your article more carefully.  The 40% number you quote isn't from the Pew poll it's from the Wenzel poll, just as I said.  

     

     



    That's the only poll on American support for Sharia law.  Since you've chosen to disregard the poll because you don't like the results I can provide you with other polls but none that ask the same question of Merican Muslims.  I Gus's we can assume CAIR doesn't represent American Muslims as well since they support Sharia law.

    Pew Research (2007): 26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified.
    35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall).
    42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall).
    22% of young Muslims in Germany believe suicide bombings are justified.(13% overall).
    29% of young Muslims in Spain believe suicide bombings are justified.(25% overall).
    http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60

    Pew Research (2011): 8% of Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified (81% never).
    28% of Egyptian Muslims believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified (38% never).
    http://www.people-press.org/2011/08/30/muslim-americans-no-signs-of-growth-in-alienation-or-support-for-extremism/

    Pew Research (2007): Muslim-Americans who identify more strongly with their religion are three times more likely to feel that suicide bombings are justified
    http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60

    As I said there is no poll identical to the Wenzel poll (unless you have one but here is one from Canada.  Can we assume that the country to our north likely shares a similar belief or would you have us believe that as we pass through the border Muslims instantly black out all the parts off their Quran that Prolate likes to peer tend don't exist.

    MacDonald Laurier Institute: 62% of Muslims want Sharia in Canada (15% say make it mandatory)
    http://www.torontosun.com/2011/11/01/strong-support-for-shariah-in-canada
    http://www.macdonaldlaurier.ca/much-good-news-and-some-worrying-results-in-new-study-of-muslim-public-opinion-in-canada/

     

     
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    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    So Mr Crusader for Women's Rights in the Middle East . . . what's your solution?  Tell all the Muslims they are evil?  Put them all in jail indefinitely without trial? Force them to convert to Christianity? Beat them into submission? Bomb them to the stone age (you seem to think they're halfway there already)? 

    I don't know how you can expect to change people for the better if you think they and their religion are inherently and irredeemably evil.  Better to try to find the good things in their culture and work up from there rather than to tear everything down and try to impose something foreign on them by force. 

     

     
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    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to shenanigan's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

     


    Than why did you devote an entire post to trying to downplay the status of women in Islam as inferior when you know that it is supported by the vast majority of Muslims and supported repeatedly in the Quran.  If your not defending misogeny than why write such a blatantly misleading post pretending that its not a majority muslim belief around the world.  

    The lesser status of women was a majority Christian belief until about 100 years ago too.  Please, women's rights are a new idea even in the West.  I fully support them.  I don't want to live under Sharia law.  But at the same time I'm not denouncing all Muslims as barbarians.  The Middle East and Islam is far more complex than that.  Maybe you spent a lot of time in Afghanistan or some other war torn corner of the world as a soldier and have a very negative view because of what you saw, but I know  a different side of the Islamic world that's not so oppressive and that's real too.  

    Why do you keep bringing up the past, does that justify the present oppression to you?   I don't care what Christians believed 100 years ago.  Today pro!  Will you stand up for women's rights today!  You are pretending that some minority westernized Muslims represent a majority muslim belief.  Islam is not what you believe or what your muslim friends believe.  It is what the Islamic teachings say.  They are clear, and around the world they are overwhelmingly interpreted to oppress women because the Quran directly says so.  Stand up for what Is right Please.

    You sir, are a coward.  

    No I'm not. I completely support women's rights.  I'm just not into denouncing 1.6 billion people as completely and utterly evil and reprehensible because some parts of their society resemble our society from 150 years ago.  That seems bigoted to me. 

    Did I say 1.6 billion people are evil?  No, I did not.  I have specifically stated in this thread that Muslims are as varied as any other people.  But Islam is an ideology and ideologies can be criticized.  I criticize Islamic doctrine for what it clearly says, and I would criticize those that follow the hateful parts.  If you support women's rights would you denounce parts of the Quran that say women are inferior?  Why haven't you, what's wrong with that?

    You would rather let women be oppressed than than confront oppression.  If this was 1940 you would be telling us that you knew a Nazi who was a nice guy and we can't judge them.  If this 1840 you would be telling us we cannot judge those in the south by our northern beliefs and we should not push our values on them.  And today as women are oppressed and pretend it isn't happening, you tell us fairy tales about this person or that person while ignoring the schools blowing up almost every week for women attending in Afghanistan, and women that can't drive in Saudi Arabia.  

    I haven't said anything like this.  I'm just objecting to your blanket denounciations of 1.6 billion people and their religion as irredeemably evil.

    Again I never said any such thing.  Women are in fact oppressed today under Sharia law.  This is done by entire countries not a handful of outliers.  I criticize the doctrine, I condemn those who support those laws, I find it shameful to stand by idly and pretend it isn't happening.

     

     you don't even have the conviction to stand up for what is going on now than what good are you.

     Perhaps you should take a trip to Saudi Arabia and explain to the women that what they are living is not the real Islam.  

    I hope all the women in Saudi Arabia have full rights post haste.  I happen to know many Saudis who also would like to see Saudi Arabia move into the twentieth century. It's a complex place and not every Muslim is an extremist or a supporter of extremism.

    No kidding, however your revolutionary plan to bring about change by playing see no evil hear no evil is probably not comforting to women who hope for reform in Saudi Arabia and most of the Middle East.

    After all it's only Mecca, just a country who's constitution is the Quran.  They must not understand that book as well as you.  Go to a hospital in Afghanistan and explain to women that it's just Americans being bigots, they don't understand the cultural beliefs that allow free Muslims to blow up schools.

    Qur'an (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"

     Yeah, you can find quotes like that in the Bible too.  And such sentiments had legal status until quite recent times in the West too.  

     

    Who cares, why are you preoccupied with Christianity?  Look if women are being treated as property in Christian theocracies than I am against it.  But you and I both know that is not the case.  I could care less what the bible says because followers of the bible are not oppressing women today.  Are you really trying to tell me it's okay to oppress women under sharia because you could (though people dont) do the same under the bible?  It's an absurd argument.  Are you against oppression or not?  Why do you keep justifying it by saying Christians used to do it?  Who cares what Christians used to do.

    1 Corinthians 11:3
    But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

     

    1 Corinthians 14:34-36
    Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

     

    Ephesians 5:22-24
    Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

     

    Colossians 3:18
    Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

     

    1 Timothy 2:11-15
    Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing.

     

    1 Peter 3:1
    Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands.

     

     




     




     
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    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    Distribute TV's and free Dish. Most western sitcoms will gradually take away their politcal will and break down the family/clan structure. Make sure to screen shows like Jersey Shore, that might actually backfire and radicallize them.

    Frozen pizza and microwaves can be a backup plan.

     
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    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    Shenanigan, you keep digging yourself deeper into a hole.  

    I quote directly from the Pew 2011 study:

    On the contrary, as found in the Pew Research Center’s 2007 survey, Muslims in the United States continue to reject extremism by much larger margins than most other Muslim publics around the world, and many express concern about the possible rise of Islamic extremism. Very few Muslim Americans – just 1% – say that suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets are often justified to defend Islam from its enemies; an additional 7% say suicide bombings are sometimes justified in these circumstances. Fully 81% say that suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilians are never justified. Comparably small percentages of Muslim Americans express favorable views of al Qaeda, and the current poll finds more holding very unfavorable views of al Qaeda now than in 2007.

    Above you say that in 2007, Pew found that 26% of young American Muslims believe suicide bombings are justified.  From the actual report:

    In addition, the survey finds that younger Muslim

    Americans – those under age 30 – are both much more

    religiously observant and more accepting of Islamic extremism

    than are older Muslim Americans. Younger Muslim Americans

    report attending services at a mosque more frequently than do

    older Muslims. And a greater percentage of younger Muslims in

    the U.S. think of themselves first as Muslims, rather than

    primarily as Americans (60% vs. 41% among Muslim

    Americans ages 30 and older). Moreover, more than twice as

    many Muslim Americans under age 30 as older Muslims believe

    that suicide bombings can be often or sometimes justified in the

    defense of Islam (15% vs. 6%).

     

    As far as your Canadian poll, the question about Sharia law was this:

    There’s been some discussion, especially in the last

    Ontario provincial election, about what the laws in our province

    and country should be with respect to religion. In your judgment,

    should Ontario laws…

     

    Make no space for the

    practice of Sharia Law (22%)

     

    Allow individual Muslims

    or Muslim families

    to choose to be ruled by

    Sharia courts in the case

    of divorce and other

    family matters if they

    want to (47%)

     

    Require Muslims to be

    ruled by Sharia courts

    on family matters (8%)

     

    Require Muslims to be

    ruled by Sharia courts

    on all matters (7%)

     

    Don’t know, refuse (17%)

     

    Some how this doesn't terrify me.  The fact that a number of Muslims think Muslims should have the choice of following Muslim law in divorce cases isn't horrifying.   

     

     
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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    So Mr Crusader for Women's Rights in the Middle East . . . what's your solution?  Tell all the Muslims they are evil?  Put them all in jail indefinitely without trial? Force them to convert to Christianity? Beat them into submission? Bomb them to the stone age (you seem to think they're halfway there already)? 

    I don't know how you can expect to change people for the better if you think they and their religion are inherently and irredeemably evil.  Better to try to find the good things in their culture and work up from there rather than to tear everything down and try to impose something foreign on them by force. 

     



    Geez, somebody has a dark side.

    The same way we dealt with other hateful ideologies In America.  Where are the Neo-Nazis?  The KKK?  We recognize them for what they are.  Did we kill the KKK? Did prevent them from speaking? Or make laws against them?  We simply said, you believe in hate and we will not.  It became unpopular and today it is nearly non existent.  That is what we face.  That is how we change the the huge part of Islam that believes hateful things.  We have an open conversation, we talk about the parts of the Quran that you don't want to see.  We ask for answers, we condemn passages that are hateful.  

    Did we not do the same in Christianity?  If we simply said "Thats what they believe" would anything ever change.  There is a movement to change Islam but it will never change if our solution is to pretend its "A religion of Peace."  We have done that for years and nothing has changed.  

    Muslims do not need to be treated as children.  Tell them when you disagree, tell them why.  Chances are those peaceful followers will overwhelm the hateful ones.  There needs to be an open debate, we don't need to suppress criticism.  Criticism is good, it's how we bring peace.  How can we expect peaceful followers to influence militant ones if we don't want to have an open conversation on Islamic doctrine.  People are left to believe what they hear in the local Mosque or YouTube because its taboo to talk about it in public.  That could be anything.

    And stop calling people bigots and racists for criticizing the Quran while you criticize the bible.  Both are open to criticism, neither is bigoted.

     
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    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    Again, I disagree with the way women are treated in most Middle Eastern countries.  In fact, I disagree with a lot of what happens in Middle Eastern countries today.  I think we should do all we can to change things. 

    But I don't think you can successfully effect change among people if you think their religion is inherently evil. 

    Religion--in all its manifestations--has always been used for both good and evil.  Islam is no different. It has good things about it and bad.  The particular religion isn't the problem.  It's the way people interpret it and use it that makes it either a force for evil or a force for good. 

    I bring up Christianity only by way of example.  It has been misued through much of history.  But that doesn't mean it's a flawed or pernicious ideology.  Because just as it has been used for evil doesn't mean it also hasn't been used for good.  The same is true of Islam. 

    There's much that needs to change in the Middle East.  But if you hope to effect change while condemning the people's religion, you won't get anywhere.  Instead you have to respect what's good about their religion and build on that. 

     

     

     
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    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    Shenanigan, you keep digging yourself deeper into a hole.  

    I quote directly from the Pew 2011 study:

    On the contrary, as found in the Pew Research Center’s 2007 survey, Muslims in the United States continue to reject extremism by much larger margins than most other Muslim publics around the world, and many express concern about the possible rise of Islamic extremism. Very few Muslim Americans – just 1% – say that suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets are often justified to defend Islam from its enemies; an additional 7% say suicide bombings are sometimes justified in these circumstances. Fully 81% say that suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilians are never justified.

    Good, 81% feel suicide bombing are never justified, what of the other 19%.  Sorry Pro, but the correct answer is that 100% of the time bombing civilians isnt  justified.  i dont feel particularly comforted that only about 1 in 10 find bombings against civilian targets "sometimes justified".  Dont you find that to be an unusually high number of people who support bombing civilians "sometimes."

    Comparably small percentages of Muslim Americans express favorable views of al Qaeda, and the current poll finds more holding very unfavorable views of al Qaeda now than in 2007.

    Above you say that in 2007, Pew found that 26% of young American Muslims believe suicide bombings are justified.  From the actual report:

    In addition, the survey finds that younger Muslim

    Americans – those under age 30 – are both much more

    religiously observant and more accepting of Islamic extremism

    than are older Muslim Americans. Younger Muslim Americans

    report attending services at a mosque more frequently than do

    older Muslims. And a greater percentage of younger Muslims in

    the U.S. think of themselves first as Muslims, rather than

    primarily as Americans (60% vs. 41% among Muslim

    Americans ages 30 and older). Moreover, more than twice as

    many Muslim Americans under age 30 as older Muslims believe

    that suicide bombings can be often or sometimes justified in the

    defense of Islam (15% vs. 6%).

     

    As far as your Canadian poll, the question about Sharia law was this:

    There’s been some discussion, especially in the last

    Ontario provincial election, about what the laws in our province

    and country should be with respect to religion. In your judgment,

    should Ontario laws…

     

    Make no space for the

    practice of Sharia Law (22%)

     

    Allow individual Muslims

    or Muslim families

    to choose to be ruled by

    Sharia courts in the case

    of divorce and other

    family matters if they

    want to (47%)

     

    Require Muslims to be

    ruled by Sharia courts

    on family matters (8%)

     

    Require Muslims to be

    ruled by Sharia courts

    on all matters (7%)

     

    Don’t know, refuse (17%)

     

    Some how this doesn't terrify me.  The fact that a number of Muslims think Muslims should have the choice of following Muslim law in divorce cases isn't horrifying.   

     So let's see, 22% don't want Sharia law in family matters.  Comforting that only 62% believe their own religous laws should trump government laws.  Lets go ahead and look at those laws.  A man can divorce his wife by saying she displeases him.  A man can have up to four wives.  A woman can only receive half as much as a man in a divorce.  A mean can beat his wife if she's disobedient.  And those are the mainstream laws.  Should I go on about 7th century Sharia law?  It is everything you would expect of 7th century law and it has no place in the world 100% of the time.

     




     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    In response to shenanigan's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    So Mr Crusader for Women's Rights in the Middle East . . . what's your solution?  Tell all the Muslims they are evil?  Put them all in jail indefinitely without trial? Force them to convert to Christianity? Beat them into submission? Bomb them to the stone age (you seem to think they're halfway there already)? 

    I don't know how you can expect to change people for the better if you think they and their religion are inherently and irredeemably evil.  Better to try to find the good things in their culture and work up from there rather than to tear everything down and try to impose something foreign on them by force. 

     

     



    Geez, somebody has a dark side.

     

    The same way we dealt with other hateful ideologies In America.  Where are the Neo-Nazis?  The KKK?  We recognize them for what they are.  Did we kill the KKK? Did prevent them from speaking? Or make laws against them?  We simply said, you believe in hate and we will not.  It became unpopular and today it is nearly non existent.  That is what we face.  That is how we change the the huge part of Islam that believes hateful things.  We have an open conversation, we talk about the parts of the Quran that you don't want to see.  We ask for answers, we condemn passages that are hateful.  

    Did we not do the same in Christianity?  If we simply said "Thats what they believe" would anything ever change.  There is a movement to change Islam but it will never change if our solution is to pretend its "A religion of Peace."  We have done that for years and nothing has changed.  

    Muslims do not need to be treated as children.  Tell them when you disagree, tell them why.  Chances are those peaceful followers will overwhelm the hateful ones.  There needs to be an open debate, we don't need to suppress criticism.  Criticism is good, it's how we bring peace.  How can we expect peaceful followers to influence militant ones if we don't want to have an open conversation on Islamic doctrine.  People are left to believe what they hear in the local Mosque or YouTube because its taboo to talk about it in public.  That could be anything.

    And stop calling people bigots and racists for criticizing the Quran while you criticize the bible.  Both are open to criticism, neither is bigoted.




    You are essentially equating a "huge part" of Islam with "hateful ideologies" like neo-nazism and the KKK. 

    We changed the way the Christian world thinks not by condeming Christianity or parts of it as "hateful." We did it by arguing for human rights outside of religion altogether. If we had tried to change the West by "condeming"  Christianity we would have made very little progress I'm sure. Even as Christians ourselves this would have been intolerable. If you--a Westerner with a Christian background and a very sketchy grasp of Muslim theology and beliefs--think you can come in as an outsider and lecture Muslims on the hateful qualities of their religion and effect change that way, you have a very poor grasp of human nature.

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    In response to shenanigan's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    Shenanigan, you keep digging yourself deeper into a hole.  

    I quote directly from the Pew 2011 study:

    On the contrary, as found in the Pew Research Center’s 2007 survey, Muslims in the United States continue to reject extremism by much larger margins than most other Muslim publics around the world, and many express concern about the possible rise of Islamic extremism. Very few Muslim Americans – just 1% – say that suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets are often justified to defend Islam from its enemies; an additional 7% say suicide bombings are sometimes justified in these circumstances. Fully 81% say that suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilians are never justified.

    Good, 81% feel suicide bombing are never justified, what of the other 19%.  Sorry Pro, but the correct answer is that 100% of the time bombing civilians isnt  justified.  i dont feel particularly comforted that only about 1 in 10 find bombings against civilian targets "sometimes justified".  Dont you find that to be an unusually high number of people who support bombing civilians "sometimes."

    Comparably small percentages of Muslim Americans express favorable views of al Qaeda, and the current poll finds more holding very unfavorable views of al Qaeda now than in 2007.

    Above you say that in 2007, Pew found that 26% of young American Muslims believe suicide bombings are justified.  From the actual report:

    In addition, the survey finds that younger Muslim

    Americans – those under age 30 – are both much more

    religiously observant and more accepting of Islamic extremism

    than are older Muslim Americans. Younger Muslim Americans

    report attending services at a mosque more frequently than do

    older Muslims. And a greater percentage of younger Muslims in

    the U.S. think of themselves first as Muslims, rather than

    primarily as Americans (60% vs. 41% among Muslim

    Americans ages 30 and older). Moreover, more than twice as

    many Muslim Americans under age 30 as older Muslims believe

    that suicide bombings can be often or sometimes justified in the

    defense of Islam (15% vs. 6%).

     

    As far as your Canadian poll, the question about Sharia law was this:

    There’s been some discussion, especially in the last

    Ontario provincial election, about what the laws in our province

    and country should be with respect to religion. In your judgment,

    should Ontario laws…

     

    Make no space for the

    practice of Sharia Law (22%)

     

    Allow individual Muslims

    or Muslim families

    to choose to be ruled by

    Sharia courts in the case

    of divorce and other

    family matters if they

    want to (47%)

     

    Require Muslims to be

    ruled by Sharia courts

    on family matters (8%)

     

    Require Muslims to be

    ruled by Sharia courts

    on all matters (7%)

     

    Don’t know, refuse (17%)

     

    Some how this doesn't terrify me.  The fact that a number of Muslims think Muslims should have the choice of following Muslim law in divorce cases isn't horrifying.   

     So let's see, 22% don't want Sharia law in family matters.  Comforting that only 62% believe their own religous laws should trump government laws.  Lets go ahead and look at those laws.  A man can divorce his wife by saying she displeases him.  A man can have up to four wives.  A woman can only receive half as much as a man in a divorce.  A mean can beat his wife if she's disobedient.  And those are the mainstream laws.  Should I go on about 7th century Sharia law?  It is everything you would expect of 7th century law and it has no place in the world 100% of the time.

     




     

     



    That's not how most modernized Muslims view Sharia law, but I'm sure you read it on some website.  There are extremists who would indeed want to see such archaic versions of Sharia introduced. But not all Sharia law is the Taliban's version of it.

     

    I live in Ontario right now.  We have a very vibrant and moderate Muslim community.  The discussion around Sharia law in marriage and divorce came as follows.  It was hardly the sinister thing you make it out to be.  

    How did Shariah come to be considered in Canadian jurisdictions?
    In 1991, Ontario was looking for ways to ease the burdens of a backlogged court system. So the province changed its Arbitration Act to allow "faith-based arbitration" – a system where Muslims, Jews, Catholics and members of other faiths could use the guiding principles of their religions to settle family disputes such as divorce, custody and inheritances outside the court system. 

    It's voluntary – both parties (a husband and wife) have to agree to go through the process. But once they do, the decisions rendered by the tribunal are binding. 

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to shenanigan's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    So Mr Crusader for Women's Rights in the Middle East . . . what's your solution?  Tell all the Muslims they are evil?  Put them all in jail indefinitely without trial? Force them to convert to Christianity? Beat them into submission? Bomb them to the stone age (you seem to think they're halfway there already)? 

    I don't know how you can expect to change people for the better if you think they and their religion are inherently and irredeemably evil.  Better to try to find the good things in their culture and work up from there rather than to tear everything down and try to impose something foreign on them by force. 

     

     



    Geez, somebody has a dark side.

     

    The same way we dealt with other hateful ideologies In America.  Where are the Neo-Nazis?  The KKK?  We recognize them for what they are.  Did we kill the KKK? Did prevent them from speaking? Or make laws against them?  We simply said, you believe in hate and we will not.  It became unpopular and today it is nearly non existent.  That is what we face.  That is how we change the the huge part of Islam that believes hateful things.  We have an open conversation, we talk about the parts of the Quran that you don't want to see.  We ask for answers, we condemn passages that are hateful.  

    Did we not do the same in Christianity?  If we simply said "Thats what they believe" would anything ever change.  There is a movement to change Islam but it will never change if our solution is to pretend its "A religion of Peace."  We have done that for years and nothing has changed.  

    Muslims do not need to be treated as children.  Tell them when you disagree, tell them why.  Chances are those peaceful followers will overwhelm the hateful ones.  There needs to be an open debate, we don't need to suppress criticism.  Criticism is good, it's how we bring peace.  How can we expect peaceful followers to influence militant ones if we don't want to have an open conversation on Islamic doctrine.  People are left to believe what they hear in the local Mosque or YouTube because its taboo to talk about it in public.  That could be anything.

    And stop calling people bigots and racists for criticizing the Quran while you criticize the bible.  Both are open to criticism, neither is bigoted.

     




     

    You are essentially equating a "huge part" of Islam with "hateful ideologies" like neo-nazism and the KKK. 

    We changed the way the Christian world thinks not by condeming Christianity or parts of it as "hateful." We did it by arguing for human rights outside of religion altogether. If we had tried to change the West by "condeming"  Christianity we would have made very little progress I'm sure. Even as Christians ourselves this would have been intolerable. If you--a Westerner with a Christian background and a very sketchy grasp of Muslim theology and beliefs--think you can come in as an outsider and lecture Muslims on the hateful qualities of their religion and effect change that way, you have a very poor grasp of human nature.

     



    The reformation?  What do you think that was?  Come on man, you're just being dishonest now.  It was Christian criticism.  It's no secret.  

    You're the one who's interpretation of the Quran contradicts mainstream Islamic beliefs.  I have interpreted the Quran exactly how Muslims in entire countries around the world interpret it.  Yes, a huge part of Islamic doctrine is interpreted as hateful.  Is that so hard to believe?  Did I make up the laws in Saudi Arabia?  Did I make the laws in Iran?  No, I'm simply telling you that is how people interpret it.  You say they are wrong?  Do you think Muslims are stupid?  Do you think they can't understand the Quran?  Why does your interpretation differ from theirs?  Don't be so arrogant.  Okay, so lets not criticize, has that worked?  Check the news, are Islamic nations beacons of human rights today.  More of the same is your prescription.  

    You disagree with the treatment of women but you say lets do nothing, lets tell them it's OK because Christians once did the same.  I say you are scared to stand up for what's right.  What good is it to mumble to yourself in the corner that you stand for women's rights and hide when they say its my religion.  To say, Okay, who am I to judge?  I will judge, I will ask for an explanation for the Surah's denigrating women, and I will ask my Muslim friends to condemn those beliefs.  I will not avoid the conversation and pretend everything's okay so I can be friends. I certainly won't pretend that Islamic doctrine has nothing to do with it.  You know it does.  Why not ask for answers? 

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to shenanigan's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    Shenanigan, you keep digging yourself deeper into a hole.  

    I quote directly from the Pew 2011 study:

    On the contrary, as found in the Pew Research Center’s 2007 survey, Muslims in the United States continue to reject extremism by much larger margins than most other Muslim publics around the world, and many express concern about the possible rise of Islamic extremism. Very few Muslim Americans – just 1% – say that suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets are often justified to defend Islam from its enemies; an additional 7% say suicide bombings are sometimes justified in these circumstances. Fully 81% say that suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilians are never justified.

    Good, 81% feel suicide bombing are never justified, what of the other 19%.  Sorry Pro, but the correct answer is that 100% of the time bombing civilians isnt  justified.  i dont feel particularly comforted that only about 1 in 10 find bombings against civilian targets "sometimes justified".  Dont you find that to be an unusually high number of people who support bombing civilians "sometimes."

    Comparably small percentages of Muslim Americans express favorable views of al Qaeda, and the current poll finds more holding very unfavorable views of al Qaeda now than in 2007.

    Above you say that in 2007, Pew found that 26% of young American Muslims believe suicide bombings are justified.  From the actual report:

    In addition, the survey finds that younger Muslim

    Americans – those under age 30 – are both much more

    religiously observant and more accepting of Islamic extremism

    than are older Muslim Americans. Younger Muslim Americans

    report attending services at a mosque more frequently than do

    older Muslims. And a greater percentage of younger Muslims in

    the U.S. think of themselves first as Muslims, rather than

    primarily as Americans (60% vs. 41% among Muslim

    Americans ages 30 and older). Moreover, more than twice as

    many Muslim Americans under age 30 as older Muslims believe

    that suicide bombings can be often or sometimes justified in the

    defense of Islam (15% vs. 6%).

     

    As far as your Canadian poll, the question about Sharia law was this:

    There’s been some discussion, especially in the last

    Ontario provincial election, about what the laws in our province

    and country should be with respect to religion. In your judgment,

    should Ontario laws…

     

    Make no space for the

    practice of Sharia Law (22%)

     

    Allow individual Muslims

    or Muslim families

    to choose to be ruled by

    Sharia courts in the case

    of divorce and other

    family matters if they

    want to (47%)

     

    Require Muslims to be

    ruled by Sharia courts

    on family matters (8%)

     

    Require Muslims to be

    ruled by Sharia courts

    on all matters (7%)

     

    Don’t know, refuse (17%)

     

    Some how this doesn't terrify me.  The fact that a number of Muslims think Muslims should have the choice of following Muslim law in divorce cases isn't horrifying.   

     So let's see, 22% don't want Sharia law in family matters.  Comforting that only 62% believe their own religous laws should trump government laws.  Lets go ahead and look at those laws.  A man can divorce his wife by saying she displeases him.  A man can have up to four wives.  A woman can only receive half as much as a man in a divorce.  A mean can beat his wife if she's disobedient.  And those are the mainstream laws.  Should I go on about 7th century Sharia law?  It is everything you would expect of 7th century law and it has no place in the world 100% of the time.

     




     

     



    That's not how most modernized Muslims view Sharia law, but I'm sure you read it on some website.  There are extremists who would indeed want to see such archaic versions of Sharia introduced. But not all Sharia law is the Taliban's version of it.

     

    I live in Ontario right now.  We have a very vibrant and moderate Muslim community.  The discussion around Sharia law in marriage and divorce came as follows.  It was hardly the sinister thing you make it out to be.  

    How did Shariah come to be considered in Canadian jurisdictions?
    In 1991, Ontario was looking for ways to ease the burdens of a backlogged court system. So the province changed its Arbitration Act to allow "faith-based arbitration" – a system where Muslims, Jews, Catholics and members of other faiths could use the guiding principles of their religions to settle family disputes such as divorce, custody and inheritances outside the court system. 

    It's voluntary – both parties (a husband and wife) have to agree to go through the process. But once they do, the decisions rendered by the tribunal are binding. 



    These things are in the Quran, you seem to want to pretend the Quran is some crazy website that Muslims don't follow.  Again, I couldn't tell you n what Muslims in Canada believe, they are as varied as anyone else but if you want to find mainstream muslim beliefs you probably wouldn't look at your buddy from Ontario. Try looking IN THE QURAN or even at the laws that most Islamic countries follow.  

    Qur'an (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

    Qur'an (38:44) - "And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with it, and do not break your oath..."  Allah telling Job to beat his wife.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    I'm done with this thread, stay safe goodnight.  No hard feelings, My issue is with Islamic doctrine not Muslims.  I want a peaceful change, I disagree with you in the way to bring that change.  No hard feelings.  Laters

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    In response to shenanigan's comment:

    I'm done with this thread, stay safe goodnight.  No hard feelings, My issue is with Islamic doctrine not Muslims.  I want a peaceful change, I disagree with you in the way to bring that change.  No hard feelings.  Laters



    Pretty funny, I guess, but I couldn't post because BDC thought I was you! No, no hard feelings.  Have a good night and we'll talik Pats next time.

     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    I took the conversation to the news forum,

    look for the following passage there to continue the conversation.

    Consider the following story.

    I'm a Muslim American raised by Muslim parents who always taught me Islam is peaceful and to love others.  I received the same message at the mosque.  I was never a leader in the mosque but I believed that if I did good things and love my wife and kids than I am a good Muslim.  Like all Muslims I was taught that the Quran was the direct word of god as told by the Angel Gabriel to Mohommad.  The words were memorized by Mohommad's followers and are literally unchanged over 1400 years.  It is forbidden to question commands from the Quran.

    Now one day I decide I will read the Quran myself and I find the following passages-

     

    "Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them." Quran 2:191 

    "Make war on the infidels living in your neighborhood." Quran 9:123

    "When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them." Quran 9:5

    "Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable." Quran 3:85 

    "The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them."... Quran 9:30 

    "Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam" Quran 5:33 

    "Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies." Koran 22:19

    "The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them." Quran 8:65

    "Muslims must not take the infidels as friends." Quran 3:28

    "Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur'an." Quran 8:12

    "Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorize the infidels." Quran 8:60

     

    Now these passages do not seem to represent the Islam I know.  I think to myself, "Am I misunderstanding the passages?"  "Is there a context I don't understand here?"  Maybe I go to my Mosque for clarification.

    What if I'm not well adjusted.  What if I'm in a life crisis?  Or just someone naturally prone to violence?  What if when I go to the mosque for an explanation I find a Imam like the one the brothers were listening to?

    These are real passages.  Now you can say I have a bad translation or that I don't understand the context and your probably right.  But if I can find these anyone can.  And there is a not insignificant amount of people who do believe these are commands to kill.

    So I say we need to stop pretending these passages don't exist and stop equivocating.

    We need to have a public debate about these passages, not for my sake because I don't believe any of it anyway.  But for the guy out there with a Quran and questions.  Obviously most Muslims are peaceful, and most Muslims have a justification for these verses.  Lets hear them, people need to hear them so they can understand.  Why didn't the brothers hear the reasons?  Because we just don't talk about it.

    That is my solution for radical Islam, if you have a better one I'm happy to hear it.

     
  20. This post has been removed.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    In response to Godvernment's comment:

    ^^ the same thing goes for the bible.. i think that's the point you are missing. kid's are taught that christianity is a religion of peace by their parents. then they go off and read the bible for themselves and see that the book isn't the peaceful book they were taught all along. there should be an open debate for all dogmatic religions.

    I look at these two brothers and I think that if this was the debate we had ten years ago, if the peaceful muslim message was put on TV and the radical points were specifically shot down than they would have had a much harder time getting that radical message.  I guarantee you when they even mentioned radical thoughts they would have been shot down if we talked about this.  

    But who's going to tell them they're wrong?  If they came to you and said "I think- kill the unbelievers where you find them means I should make a bomb" what would you say to them? "Christianity says the same thing."  Do you think that will stop them?  We need to know why they're wrong, and we need everyone to know it.


    Your equivocating.  Christians are not blowing up bombs almost daily around the world in the name of Christianity.  There are not Christian theocracies oppressing women all over the world.  If you find a violent bible verse and google it you will find a thousand reasons why Christians say they don't follow that verse and no reasoning why it supports violence.   If you YouTube it you will get the same.  You will find no Christians following that verse around the world.

    If I google a violent Quran verse you will find those who say it is in fact a command to kill, YouTube it and you will find Radical Imams saying the same, look around the world and you will find people justifying it for killing.  So if I'm looking for guidance on why it's wrong what guidance do I get?  

    Frankly, there is an open debate in Christianity.  I can find Christian criticisms by comedians, news anywhere.  And Christianity is better for it.

    But in Islam we just hear "Thats not Islam, Islam is peaceful."  We're not children, tell us why those verses are wrong.  The media is afraid to address the issue.  I want to see a respected Imam on 60 minutes, not giving me some whitewashed baloney but addressing the sword verses. People want to know, what do they mean?  Why do so many people think they command to kill.  Don't tell me Islam is peace, show me because I can read the Quran and I can see the news.  Tell the whole world.  

    When I come in here and show you verses like the ones above, tell me why I'm wrong because I want to be wrong here.  Don't tell me it's the same for this religion or that.  The thing is there is a reason why most Muslims don't believe they must kill when reading those verses but that message is not getting out there.  None of you can tell me why I'm wrong because you don't know.  It should not be a mystery.  When I look up sword verses on YouTube I want to see a hundred videos telling me they don't mean kill for every radical one but that's not the case.  I want to see the peaceful Muslims debating the radical ones.  I want to see Islamic countries that are beacons of human rights (Obviously that would take time).

    To answer your question above, I do support gay rights and I don't support oppression anywhere.

    Now I won't be checking this thread I will be in the news forum from now on if you want to continue.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    Again, your "mistake" is taking a few verses from the Quoran and using them to represent all of Islam.  You can do the same with Christianity: take a few verses and use them to represent all of Christianity.  Both tactics are misleading and really are the work of a propogandaist, not someone who is interested in learning the truth. 

    There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, most who live ordinary peaceful lives and, much like Christians, attribute many of their more admirable values to their religion.  Much of Islam teaches kindness and charity to others.  There's a vast side of the religion you are ignoring to focus on a few verses in the Koran that are negative.  Similary, you are branding a whole religion based on its interpretation by extremists and by the actions of those extremists.  

    Now look.  I'm not denying that there is a lot of extremism right now in the Muslim world and that there are many bad, repressive governments there as well.  But that doesn't "prove" as you seem to think that the religion of Islam is "hateful" and to blame.  The region has been in economic decline and a political mess since the fall of the Ottomans.  I'm sure you will attribute that to "the ideology" of Islam, but really it has more to do with economic competition from a rising Western world, colonialism and other damaging political interference from the West, and, at least according to some scholars, continued drying of the climate which has reduced agricultural productivity in the region. For all these factors, much of the Muslim world has failed to progress economically or in human and political rights as much or as quickly as the rest of the world has.  It's certainly behind Europe and much of the Americas and Asia.  It's probably ahead of much of sub-Saharan Africa and about equal to some other parts of Asia and the Americas.

    There are, however, signs of positive change in places.  While most of the Middle Eastern countries are at or near the bottom of the World Economic Forum's Gender Gap Index, many have also have been making steady progress toward closing that gap.  The greatest success has been in the oil-rich principalities in the Gulf. In fact, the United Arab Emirates is now at the top of the list (tied with the US and about 20 other nations) in having the smallest gender gap in educational levels between men and women.  Qatar and Kuwait are also high on the list of countries with low educational gender gaps.  Even in conservative Saudi Arabia, 36% of women enrol in college or university, compared to 25% of men. All these countries continue to be behind in political rights for women, but increasingly the women in those countries are highly (and often Western) educated and certainly are becoming a force for change.  Muslim Pakistan has many problems with women (so, by the way does largely Hindu India) but it has had a woman Prime Minister. There are, if you care to look, signs of progress.  Yes, there's still a long way to go, but not every Middle Eastern country is as backwards as Afghanistan under the Taliban. 

    I don't know where you get your perception of the Middle East and Islam.  Your avatar makes me think you're a soldier.  Maybe you spent time in Afghanistan or Iraq, both of which are war-torn countries full of extremism as is often the case when dictators rule and political turmoil is extreme. My experience with the Middle East comes through my relatives (siblings who are married to Muslims and who spend lots of time with family in the Middle East) and from my business career, where I've worked extensively with Saudi businessmen. My experience of Islam and Middle Easterners is very different from what I presume yours is.  It's also very different from what is generally portrayed on television (which tends to be the extremism because that's what makes news). My experience has been largely positive and reassuring.  Yours, I assume, is largely negative.  This doesn't make either experience invalid.  All I ask is that you open your eyes and see the other side.  Your experience is not the whole picture.  There is much more to the story than what you have seen . . . or choose only to see. 

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from mia76. Show mia76's posts

    Re: Don't ever forget this.. the real enemy is VIOLENT extremists of ALL stripes!

    Folks - I really have enjoyed this discussion, even if it really doesn't belong on the Pats forum. I appreciate most of the views expressed and the general civility of the discussion. Prolate a special shout out for educating all of us from your experience and obviously greater personal knowledge of the Muslim world. And I absolutely agree that westerners and especially americans have a very incomplete understanding of Islam and the Arab world. And that sensation 'sells' so news and political commentary tends to be extremist and terribly simplistic of issues on all subjects but especially in regard to this thread's topics.

    What I hope will be my last post to this thread:

    1. Early on I posted a list of causes of death. It was not meant to minimize the impact or equate terrorism to other causes, but to suggest that we are fickle in our response to what are ultimately very small numbers of casualities from terrorism compared to the death tolls we experience in other ways. I still believe this. Personally my hatred of the corporation and its executives responsible for the explosion in Texas is probably greater than that for the two brothers in Boston. We have no idea yet of the exact reason for Boston, but while Texas can be termed an 'accident' in that it was not set off intentionally, greed, and mismanagement, and probably criminal negligance were the reasons in Texas. The living brother in Boston will probably be executed (the other already dead) because they killed 4 and maimed many more. The prosecution in Texas will likely end in fines and no jail time for anyone from the death and injury of exponentially more people. And very few people will be upset about that and I think they should be.

    2. The use of terror has been primarily a tool of highly educated ideologs taking advantage of economically and politically oppressed populations to recruit and prosper. Add to that the use of external 'enemies' by despotic regimes to distract their own populations from internal problems and you have a perfect storm in the middle east that has little ultimately to do with religion. (The biggest negative of all abrahamic religions is the promise of a better life in heaven with rewards for actions on earth in support of a particular faith.) It is very easy to motivate those in abject poverty with no realistic hope in a better future to do anything for immediate or future benefit. (It is no surprise that the Nazis rose to power in Germany during a time of truly miserable economic turmoil.) The US and the west became a perfect boogyman for the arab populations because during the cold war we exploited and supported the regional despots and we are the 'wealthiest nation on earth'. If you look throughout history, you can see the cycle of desperation and extremism repeated. (That is why history is useful as a window on the present and future.)

    3. One indicator of a countries descent into political turmoil is to look at income inequality. Where it is greatest, you create an underclass of the hopeless who have 'nothing to lose' and are prime candidates for extremist teachings of any ilk. This should be a concern for us in the US as our income inequality is rising very rapidly to dangerous levels.

    4. Another indicator is the level and quality of education. The improved outlook for education of women is a positive sign in many areas of the world. The changes may be slow, but there is a trend up. The problems we are having in education in this country are worrisome - for the 'richest nation in the world' we rank much lower than we should in eductating our children.

    5. On education in this country specifically - the fact that 40+% of Americans do not believe in evolution is frightening to me. I do not care about religious teachings except when they are used to keep a population ignorant. How can we improve our science education when almost half of our children are told at home that a cornerstone of science is false? (The US % is double the world wide average and even worse compared to other industrialized nations.) The denegration of educated people or the labeling of education as a 'liberal' or 'elitest' trait is very 'unamerican', but unfortunately quite commonplace. For most of our history education was revered, and even today the familial joy directed toward the first university graduate in a family is wonderful to see.

    6. While the internet is a great tool for all of us, it has the disadvantage of treating every piece of information as equal when they are not. Newspapers and TV news used to be a fairly good filter on 'facts' vs. 'theories', 'speculation', commentary, and outright disinformation. By opening up millions of new 'unedited' sources every fact can be disputed and we can now self edit to our own prejudices and biases. I do not think this is a net positive.

    7. TV news used to be fact based relations of current events. With 24 hour news stations there is not enough content to fill the space so they invented (or perfected) the non-news news show. Now it is almost impossible to actually find 'news' on CNN, MSNBC, or Fox unless their is an exceptional 'event' like Boston. Instead we have 'news' that is really just commentary and personalities and the ratings war means that these shows seek the more bombastic and ideologically extreme guests and commentators they can find. And being balanced means giving equal weight to both sides of an issue regardless of where the preponderance of opinion or facts lie.

    8. And even if you watched the 'news' of events in Boston, you realized that the actual news that was available to be reported in each hour steadily decreased, so that by the third hour most of the 'news' was back to those commentators making grand pronouncements based on the 'facts' to date. And the pressure to be the most current new program resulted in truly shoddy journalism including the misidentification of 'suspects' and the arrest of a suspect that never occurred.

    Sorry - did not mean this to be quite so long. But I hope I presented some less contentious thoughts on the subject.

     

     
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