Draft and Free Agency - Safety

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    Re: Draft and Free Agency - Safety

    On the topic of safety, how good is DMC really?  Perhaps the question should be rephrased, How good are Logan Ryan and D Harmon?  I think DMC is an OK safety, but he does get beat.  When he cheats in close, completions go over his head.  Then, when he stays back and it's a 3-ring circus in the middle of the field in front of him.  I doesn't have the innate ability to cheat and cover the field.  He seemed to really struggle with the green dot too.  It really slowed him down.  I saw Gregory out there shouting a lot to get guys in place and it helped.  Consider these numbers:

    tackles: 320   336

    sacks:    1      1

    INTs:    15     8

    FFs:      6       4

    deflections:  52     49

    The first column is DMC (a day one starter) and the second column is his twin Jason.  Considering that Jason was a 6th rounder, rather than a 1st, and didn't start right away, the numbers are eerily similar.  My point is that JMC has a very team friendly deal with the Titans.  It was 5 yrs @43m, but only 17m was guaranteed; 9m signing bonus, 5 m in 2013, 3.5m in 2014.  Basically a 2 -year deal.  DMC and JMC are identical twins right?  Why can't the Pats just coach up DMC to be a decent CB like JMC?  Based on these numbers, I'd be reluctant to make a huge commitment to DMC.  Solution?  Get the hard-hitting, instinctive SS we've needed for years.  Move Gregory to FS (with Harmon) and retrain DMC to find the ball in space as a CB, which, with his speed, is his natural position.  Of course this is predicated on a team-friendly deal.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Draft and Free Agency - Safety

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

    Eng let's just drop it(again) you are telling us BB shouldn't of signed guys like Dillion, Moss, Gronk, Hern, AD, because they were STUD football players with checkered pasts. But you liked the Rodney signing(dirtiest player in the league), and the Seymour extension. Your premise is too hypocritical for me and based purely on hindsight.

    You knock the way the guy has built a dynasty and if you want to use examples of his multiple misses in the 2nd round, I agree but to now sit here and say- Look even the Moss, Dillion, AD, Gronk, and Hern picks were poor moves is just too far. Just saying BB should avoid the value guys(which his 13 year dynasty has been built on) and go for high rated FA's is a vague and irresponsible statement. BB pays top rated expensive talented FA's they are just his own that he brings in, coaches up and develops into stars. 

     



    True stop putting words in my mouth. Not sure where you get some of these ideas but you keep sticking words in my mouth I didn't say. That's like me saying that you think Lloyd, Fanene, Haynesworth, Ocho, A. Wilson, Bodden were the greatest signings ever and T. Wilson was an amazing pick. Again you can take on some red flag guys but don't be surprised when they fail because of those red flags. However, recently we've taken on more then a couple at a time and have made over a 1/4 of the starters red flag guys. You can't have that many red flags and expect nothing will happen, that's my issue. It doesn't work that way.

    Rodney being a dirty player isn't a red flag because it didn't affect if he could stay on the field. Seymour didn't have any red flags that would suggest he wouldn't be on the field. None of that is hypocritical because they aren't red flags that could potentially effect the team unlike getting suspended for off field issues or not being able to stay on the field at all from injury.

    One of these days I would love to see what you actually read because you seem to come to a conclusion on a meaning regardless of if it is right or wrong and jump on it without actually understanding what the person is saying. And yet again you do the thing you said was "lame" pulling out the you know better than BB argument.

    I'll ask you again to keep it civilized:

    Which low cost players over the years have paid off using this type of system. We can have a good discussion on players they wanted but under bid vs players they got with that value.

    Then on the upcoming FA period lets here what ideas you have for FA's. We all know BB's system so using that system which players would you like to see picked up that would fit BB's value system.

    We can have a good discussion on those players and weigh the good and bad on each if you like. To me we'd both get a good discussion on the above topics. Not going into extremes and reading into things that don't exist.

    As for the system, I think it works to take a chance on a low cost high upside player with some red flags if you only take that chance on a player or two every couple years. However, if you are taking too many at any given time it does prevent you from signing higher talent players with less red flags as the Pats have done in recent years. As I think it's alright to take a chance on a couple high talent FA with no red flags every couple years just as long as you don't sign too many too quickly. This system is great for adding depth as you can get better talent for the depth and if they fail not a big loss if the cost is low, however I don't like the system when it's adding those types of players as starters you need to count on in large numbers and are paying longer term guaranteed money to them under the risk it creates chunks of dead money if they fail for those red flags. I feel the Pats haven't had the upfront talent to win in the playoffs against higher talent teams and the reasons for that is because they have to use JAGs as starters because dead money prevents them from signing high talented players and because a number of their starters are in fact injury prone and don't last a full season. To me those issues can be prevented and are known prior to signing. Simply if a player is known to cause issues in the locker room maybe don't give him money that could hurt you if you need to dump them after a year. I know crazy talk but it happens and has cost this team dearly in dead money. Also if a player is injury prone you need to invest in a better backup for them, not to mention if you already have a number of injury prone players maybe you shouldn't take on so much risk on them and not sign so many. Pick and chose your players better. Gronk, worth taking a risk on. Amendola, not worth the risk considering any number of players who are more durable can do the same job.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Draft and Free Agency - Safety

    Eng when you say Dillion, Moss, AD, gronk, Hern "FAILED" because of issues Bill Belichick SHOULD have known about, you are saying he made a mistake in signing them, are you not?

    I mean you said these guys failed. Right? i didn't say it. 23 tds in 1 year for Moss NFl record, most tds in first 3 years in NFL history for Gronk, all time single season Patriots rushing record for Dillion. You say he shouldn't take guys like this with all these red flags but they have been some of our best players. Did I put words in your mouth there?

    Where does it end?

    I think the whole debate has been pretty civil other then each of us accusing the other of rustyism.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: Draft and Free Agency - Safety

    In response to user_4160947's comment:

    On the topic of safety, how good is DMC really?  Perhaps the question should be rephrased, How good are Logan Ryan and D Harmon?  I think DMC is an OK safety, but he does get beat.  When he cheats in close, completions go over his head.  Then, when he stays back and it's a 3-ring circus in the middle of the field in front of him.  I doesn't have the innate ability to cheat and cover the field.  He seemed to really struggle with the green dot too.  It really slowed him down.  I saw Gregory out there shouting a lot to get guys in place and it helped.  Consider these numbers:

    tackles: 320   336

    sacks:    1      1

    INTs:    15     8

    FFs:      6       4

    deflections:  52     49

    The first column is DMC (a day one starter) and the second column is his twin Jason.  Considering that Jason was a 6th rounder, rather than a 1st, and didn't start right away, the numbers are eerily similar.  My point is that JMC has a very team friendly deal with the Titans.  It was 5 yrs @43m, but only 17m was guaranteed; 9m signing bonus, 5 m in 2013, 3.5m in 2014.  Basically a 2 -year deal.  DMC and JMC are identical twins right?  Why can't the Pats just coach up DMC to be a decent CB like JMC?  Based on these numbers, I'd be reluctant to make a huge commitment to DMC.  Solution?  Get the hard-hitting, instinctive SS we've needed for years.  Move Gregory to FS (with Harmon) and retrain DMC to find the ball in space as a CB, which, with his speed, is his natural position.  Of course this is predicated on a team-friendly deal.




    This is what Ive been proposing. Id rather pay Talib at 8mill/year to be a shutdown CB than pay Dmac 8 mill/year to be an average safety in a system that doesnt encourage playmaking.

     
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    Re: Draft and Free Agency - Safety

    Draft Calvin Pryor?

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Draft and Free Agency - Safety

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

    Eng when you say Dillion, Moss, AD, gronk, Hern "FAILED" because of issues Bill Belichick SHOULD have known about, you are saying he made a mistake in signing them, are you not?

    I mean you said these guys failed. Right? i didn't say it. 23 tds in 1 year for Moss NFl record, most tds in first 3 years in NFL history for Gronk, all time single season Patriots rushing record for Dillion. You say he shouldn't take guys like this with all these red flags but they have been some of our best players. Did I put words in your mouth there?

    Where does it end?

    I think the whole debate has been pretty civil other then each of us accusing the other of rustyism.



    No I'm not saying BB made a mistake. There's a lot that went into it. In the end they failed because of those red flags. Now with those guys they didn't have a ton invested into them and there weren't a lot of other red flag players on the team so they could absorb the hit of letting them go better. Again, you can carry a couple red flag issues on the team at a time but you shouldn't be dependant on them and shouldn't carry too many of them. They are however, examples of red flag players who failed because of those red flags. In other words red flags tend to make or break players and those with red flags tend to have them come up through their career verses those who don't. So, you need a balance and not overload with those types of guys and realize what is a healthy investment vs not. Dillion and Moss contract structures were in a way that the team could dump them without much of a hit, Lloyds for example had more risk because it contained more guaranteed funds for a player known to out live his stay sooner rather than later. Hernandez had a maturity issues and a checked past, maybe you wait out his contract until he matures before giving him a big deal. These are simple things True. Moss is a prime example of what you should do if you are going to take on a red flag. Paid a low cost to get, didn't give him any long term, and didn't give him a good check up front vs easier to obtain incentives. The issue lately though, is every year we are taking on more and more red flags and giving them more and more money up front. Now individually it might not seem like much but when you are taking on 3, 4, 5 dead money contracts like this every year for players who failed due to red flags made it's time to rethink that system.

    And yes they failed - Moss was traded (would you call that a success getting traded off a team for locker room issues) and Dillion was booted off the team. It's not like they were players that ran out their contracts and left for more money they were booted off the team! What else would you call that? Listen you can be a failure but still have helped the team. Take Spikes, I'm sorry but I hope you can get more than 2.5 productive years from a 2nd round pick. Doesn't mean he wasn't productive while here but I would say that was a failure of a pick because you can't be replacing high picks every 3-4 years. You need some to stay around and to build around.

    Most times it's civil but it seems like we are going around in circles where I say something, you misread and take it to an extreme, and I try to bring it back to what I originally meant it as. So I presented those questions to get your feelings on what you liked and didn't like, which you still haven't given. You are defending the system so hard but have yet to give examples of players you felt were great value provided by the system as opposed to the ones we missed on because of the system. I'm also interested in hearing about players you think can help with issues (such as pass rush, RZ, and OL) but would fit that system of value over better quality.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Draft and Free Agency - Safety

    In response to PhatVirgin's comment:

    In response to user_4160947's comment:

    On the topic of safety, how good is DMC really?  Perhaps the question should be rephrased, How good are Logan Ryan and D Harmon?  I think DMC is an OK safety, but he does get beat.  When he cheats in close, completions go over his head.  Then, when he stays back and it's a 3-ring circus in the middle of the field in front of him.  I doesn't have the innate ability to cheat and cover the field.  He seemed to really struggle with the green dot too.  It really slowed him down.  I saw Gregory out there shouting a lot to get guys in place and it helped.  Consider these numbers:

    tackles: 320   336

    sacks:    1      1

    INTs:    15     8

    FFs:      6       4

    deflections:  52     49

    The first column is DMC (a day one starter) and the second column is his twin Jason.  Considering that Jason was a 6th rounder, rather than a 1st, and didn't start right away, the numbers are eerily similar.  My point is that JMC has a very team friendly deal with the Titans.  It was 5 yrs @43m, but only 17m was guaranteed; 9m signing bonus, 5 m in 2013, 3.5m in 2014.  Basically a 2 -year deal.  DMC and JMC are identical twins right?  Why can't the Pats just coach up DMC to be a decent CB like JMC?  Based on these numbers, I'd be reluctant to make a huge commitment to DMC.  Solution?  Get the hard-hitting, instinctive SS we've needed for years.  Move Gregory to FS (with Harmon) and retrain DMC to find the ball in space as a CB, which, with his speed, is his natural position.  Of course this is predicated on a team-friendly deal.



    McCourty had  a pretty good rookie year as a CB, had a downer second year.  I think there was an article that showed that McCourty is a pretty good S. Some fans will say McCourty's weaknesses were because he's trying to do more than just his job - but covering for teammates.

    That being said - maybe we're missing the bigger picture.  The improvement in Pass D at the end of 2012 and for parts of this past season (2013) was because of Talib's presence (when he is healthy and playing).  We are likely to lose Talib; in which case, McCourty's presence/play back at CB or S won't make a difference anyways. 



    I think that's more true than not. Look at early in the year when Talib was right and the pass rush was effective, McCourty was playing at a probowl level. When Talib went down and basically our interior D suddenly McCourty looked like he was having issues as he had to watch the box, cover for Arrington on the outside, and assist Ryan early on. He was stretched way to far when things fell apart around him. You can't expect you FS to cover 80% of the field and not have to cheat up or sit back giving a hole.

     
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