Draft Killers - BB and DBs

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from CubanPete. Show CubanPete's posts

    Draft Killers - BB and DBs

    Looking for a reason this team hasn't won a SB in 10 years, look no further than GM Bill Bellichick's penchant for reaching for DBs in the draft.

    DBs drafted by the team since 2000

    Tavon Wilson is listed as a "FS" not a "DB". He must be included in this list.

    That makes 11 DBs drafted by BB in the first 3 rounds. Only one, McCourty, was a good pick.


    1/11, nuff said.

     

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Draft Killers - BB and DBs

    In response to CubanPete's comment:

    Looking for a reason this team hasn't won a SB in 10 years, look no further than GM Bill Bellichick's penchant for reaching for DBs in the draft.

    DBs drafted by the team since 2000

    Tavon Wilson is listed as a "FS" not a "DB". He must be included in this list.

    That makes 11 DBs drafted by BB in the first 3 rounds. Only one, McCourty, was a good pick.


    1/11, nuff said.

     

     



    I thought Eugene Wilson was a quality player. Though he definitely wasn't a star. Hobbs was good, but too small to really project his skills beyond the slot, which is what they tried to do.  

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from CubanPete. Show CubanPete's posts

    Re: Draft Killers - BB and DBs

    In response to zbellino's comment:

     

    In response to CubanPete's comment:

     

     

     

    Looking for a reason this team hasn't won a SB in 10 years, look no further than GM Bill Bellichick's penchant for reaching for DBs in the draft.

    DBs drafted by the team since 2000

    Tavon Wilson is listed as a "FS" not a "DB". He must be included in this list.

    That makes 11 DBs drafted by BB in the first 3 rounds. Only one, McCourty, was a good pick.


    1/11, nuff said.

     

     

     

     



    I thought Eugene Wilson was a quality player. Though he definitely wasn't a star. Hobbs was good, but too small to really project his skills beyond the slot, which is what they tried to do.  

     

     

     




    Wilson was a journeyman who got frequently burned deep only to have the opposing QB miss his open target (I base this from KC Joyner's Scientific Football). He played at the time when the Pats had Willie and Vrabel and when both were effective pass rushers. Though I see your point. In SB 39, Wilson left the game due to injury, and Dexter Reid replaced him and almost gave the game away. Wilson wasn't terrible, but his play never warranted a 2nd round selection.

     

    I disagree with you on Hobbs. He was a completion waiting to happen. He was a move-the-chains CB. The fact he started at CB for several years illustrates the sad state of the secondary.

    NOTE: Ryan and Harmon are not listed as "DB" so they too are on this list. I've taken flak for this but Harmon and Ryan haven't looked good in camp, and both were underwhelming against the Eagles. Since both are #3s, BB is looking at 1/13 at the plate.

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from CablesWyndBairn. Show CablesWyndBairn's posts

    Re: Draft Killers - BB and DBs

    In response to CubanPete's comment:

     

    In response to zbellino's comment:

     

     

     

    In response to CubanPete's comment:

     

     

     

     

     

    Looking for a reason this team hasn't won a SB in 10 years, look no further than GM Bill Bellichick's penchant for reaching for DBs in the draft.

    DBs drafted by the team since 2000

    Tavon Wilson is listed as a "FS" not a "DB". He must be included in this list.

    That makes 11 DBs drafted by BB in the first 3 rounds. Only one, McCourty, was a good pick.


    1/11, nuff said.

     

     

     

     

     



    I thought Eugene Wilson was a quality player. Though he definitely wasn't a star. Hobbs was good, but too small to really project his skills beyond the slot, which is what they tried to do.  

     

     

     

     

     




    Wilson was a journeyman who got frequently burned deep only to have the opposing QB miss his open target. He played at the time when the Pats had Willie, Tedy, and Vrabel were effective pass rusher. Though I see your point. In SB 39, Wilson left the game due to injury, and Dexter Reid replaced him and almost gave the game away. Wilson wasn't terrible, but his play never warranted a 2nd round selection.

     

     

    I disagree with you on Hobbs. He was a completion waiting to happen. He was a move-the-chains CB. The fact he started at CB for several years illustrates the sad state of the secondary.

    NOTE: Ryan and Harmon are not listed as "DB" so they too are on this list. I've taken flak for this but Harmon and Ryan haven't looked good in camp, and both were underwhelming against the Eagles. Since both are #3s, BB is looking at 1/13 at the plate.

     

     




    I have read more than a few articles that said the exact opposite of what you just said about Ryan and Harmon.  I posted one the other day that made them both sound like promising prospects.  I have no idea what they will be, but I do know that saying they're busts in August of their first professional year is a bit much. It's beyond hilarious to me that anyone can say anything definitive about either of them. 

    If you watched the Eagles game and can definitively declare them busts based on that then you clearly need to quit your job and get into the player scouting biz.  I'm gonna wait a bit before saying they're scrap heap guys.  People around here like to jockey into position to be the first guy who said "I told you he was a bust".  Congrats, you may be right, but you may also be very, very wrong.    

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Draft Killers - BB and DBs

    Without looking it up, I can't name a Ravens CB from last year's playoff run, I remember Reed and Pollard at S, that's it. Nor can I remember a NYG DB from '11 or a GB DB from '10 (well, S Woodson was there I believe?). I think they were all pretty average to decent players, no stars.

    Who are SF's CBs, best defense in the league, right? Not because of their DBs.

    Give me average DBs, solid LBs and some heat on the QB and I'm a hero DC. Ty Law was a fine player, but who else did they have at CB? A bunch of journeymen, that's who. How many SBs have Champ Bailey and Darrell Revis won?  You can throw in loud mouth Sherman if you want. Two fewer than Otis Smith, that's how many. 

    It's an overrated position.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Draft Killers - BB and DBs

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

     

    Without looking it up, I can't name a Ravens CB from last year's playoff run, I remember Reed and Pollard at S, that's it. Nor can I remember a NYG DB from '11 or a GB DB from '10 (well, S Woodson was there I believe?). I think they were all pretty average to decent players, no stars.

    RESPONSE: Both of those teams could get away with an average secondary...because they could rush the passer...especially the Giants.

    Who are SF's CBs, best defense in the league, right? Not because of their DBs.

    RESPONSE: FS Dashon Goldston and SS Donte Whitner each made the pro-bowl last year. And, again, SF can, unlike the Pats, rush the passer.

    Give me average DBs, solid LBs and some heat on the QB and I'm a hero DC.

    RESPONSE: True. But, since the Pats' haven't had that, their weak secondary has gotten torched.

    Ty Law was a fine player, but who else did they have at CB? A bunch of journeymen, that's who.

    RESPONSE: Lawyer Milloy was a "journeyman"?? Rodney Harrison a journeyman?  

    How many SBs have Champ Bailey and Darrell Revis won?  You can throw in loud mouth Sherman if you want. Two fewer than Otis Smith, that's how many. 

    RESPONSE: Stop it! Who played QB for those teams? Who coached those teams?

    It's an overrated position.

    RESPONSE: It's not as important as a good defender who can rush the passer...I'll grant you that. But, if a team can't rush the passer, it had better have a good secondary.

     




     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bungalow-Bill. Show Bungalow-Bill's posts

    Re: Draft Killers - BB and DBs

    Yes queenie, those are all terrific players. If they were drafted by the Jets you would start a thread every day. What a loser you are.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Draft Killers - BB and DBs

    In response to TexasPat's comment:

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

     

    Without looking it up, I can't name a Ravens CB from last year's playoff run, I remember Reed and Pollard at S, that's it. Nor can I remember a NYG DB from '11 or a GB DB from '10 (well, S Woodson was there I believe?). I think they were all pretty average to decent players, no stars.

    RESPONSE: Both of those teams could get away with an average secondary...because they could rush the passer...especially the Giants.

    Who are SF's CBs, best defense in the league, right? Not because of their DBs.

    RESPONSE: FS Dashon Goldston and SS Donte Whitner each made the pro-bowl last year. And, again, SF can, unlike the Pats, rush the passer.

    Give me average DBs, solid LBs and some heat on the QB and I'm a hero DC.

    RESPONSE: True. But, since the Pats' haven't had that, their weak secondary has gotten torched.

    Ty Law was a fine player, but who else did they have at CB? A bunch of journeymen, that's who.

    RESPONSE: Lawyer Milloy was a "journeyman"?? Rodney Harrison a journeyman?  

    How many SBs have Champ Bailey and Darrell Revis won?  You can throw in loud mouth Sherman if you want. Two fewer than Otis Smith, that's how many. 

    RESPONSE: Stop it! Who played QB for those teams? Who coached those teams?

    It's an overrated position.

    RESPONSE: It's not as important as a good defender who can rush the passer...I'll grant you that. But, if a team can't rush the passer, it had better have a good secondary.

     




     



    Don't think anything you said actually contradicted what I said. If you can't rush the passer (and contain the running game, while you're at it), you can't have a great defense. DBs can only do so much for so long. CB is perhaps the most fungible position in football, besides RB. Sure, there are a handful of stars and some just below that, but the vast majority are interchangeable. Just like RBs. If you swapped Buffalo's CBs for SF's, would it matter one bit to either team?

    I referred to SF's CBs, not their DBs overall. I can't name one, I can't name a Raven CB (well, Webb, but he didn't play last year). Same with the old Pats, I was referring specifically to CB not safety. They won with journeymen, Smith, Poole, Buckley. That's all you need.

    Also, you saying RESPONSE: Stop it! Who played QB for those teams? Who coached those teams? is pretty much making my point. Those things are far more important than CB, or DB overall. (So are DL and LB.) You can make it to the SB and win it with a great QB and a lousy defensive backfield, but try it the other way around.

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bungalow-Bill. Show Bungalow-Bill's posts

    Re: Draft Killers - BB and DBs

    In response to russgriswold's comment:

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

     

    Without looking it up, I can't name a Ravens CB from last year's playoff run, I remember Reed and Pollard at S, that's it. Nor can I remember a NYG DB from '11 or a GB DB from '10 (well, S Woodson was there I believe?). I think they were all pretty average to decent players, no stars.

    Who are SF's CBs, best defense in the league, right? Not because of their DBs.

    Give me average DBs, solid LBs and some heat on the QB and I'm a hero DC. Ty Law was a fine player, but who else did they have at CB? A bunch of journeymen, that's who. How many SBs have Champ Bailey and Darrell Revis won?  You can throw in loud mouth Sherman if you want. Two fewer than Otis Smith, that's how many. 

    It's an overrated position.

     



    Wow. They deleted my first two posts on this thread which exposed Cuban Troll. Unreal. They actually enable trolling here.

     



    You should ake the hint and go away queenie. Bwahaha

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Draft Killers - BB and DBs

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    Without looking it up, I can't name a Ravens CB from last year's playoff run, I remember Reed and Pollard at S, that's it.

    Ladarius Webb, all pro cornerback. 

    Nor can I remember a NYG DB from '11 or a GB DB from '10 (well, S Woodson was there I believe?). I think they were all pretty average to decent players, no stars.

    Antrelle Rolle, and Prince Amukamara?

    Who are SF's CBs, best defense in the league, right? Not because of their DBs.

    Carlos Rogers, pro bowler, two time all pro, is the second best player on that defense, possibly third. No lower. He is legit. 

    Give me average DBs, solid LBs and some heat on the QB and I'm a hero DC.

    Why does it have to be one way or the other? Most defense that have sustained success have both. 

    It's an overrated position.

    Yet, NFL GMs pay it among the highest. 




     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Draft Killers - BB and DBs

    In response to zbellino's comment:

    Without looking it up, I can't name a Ravens CB from last year's playoff run, I remember Reed and Pollard at S, that's it.

    Ladarius Webb, all pro cornerback. 

    Nor can I remember a NYG DB from '11 or a GB DB from '10 (well, S Woodson was there I believe?). I think they were all pretty average to decent players, no stars.

    Antrelle Rolle, and Prince Amukamara?

    Who are SF's CBs, best defense in the league, right? Not because of their DBs.

    Carlos Rogers, pro bowler, two time all pro, is the second best player on that defense, possibly third. No lower. He is legit. 

    Give me average DBs, solid LBs and some heat on the QB and I'm a hero DC.

    Why does it have to be one way or the other? Most defense that have sustained success have both. 

    It's an overrated position.

    Yet, NFL GMs pay it among the highest. 

     




    Webb was injured last season and was not part of the playoff run.  Plus he has never been named to an all-pro team.  At least not by the AP.

    Amukamara has never started a full season and I think Muzwell was referring to CBs so Rolle is sort of moot.  Plus the Giant's passing defense has been practically as bad as NE's despite their pass rush.  These guys can't be that good and are hardly stars.

    Carlos Rogers is a good player, but he has only been an all-pro once and that was 2nd team.  Not sure where you are gettng your all-pro data from.  I think Willis, Bowman and both Smith's are better players than him.

    I think defensive lineman, QBs and WRs get paid more than CBs.  Revis is the only one to really get a huge payday and none of it is guaranteed.

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Philskiw1. Show Philskiw1's posts

    Re: Draft Killers - BB and DBs

     wasn't it Ryan claridge the highest BB ever dra fted a lb at that point in time as the pats hc/GM?  He traditionally got them in FA. Something to be said about experience back there. 

    edit. he was taken in the 5 th round and never even practiced for us.   

    Now you got the easy part done telling me about it.

    Does that handshaped bruise on your back hurt?

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Draft Killers - BB and DBs

    He has been abysmal in that department, even the players that "made it" would be backups on most teams. It has hurt the team.

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Draft Killers - BB and DBs

    Yeah that Belichick guy sux

        







    "Defense Wins Championships"
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: Draft Killers - BB and DBs

    In response to russgriswold's comment:

    Since 2005:

    Eugene Wilson (2004 draft)

    Ellis Hobbs

    James Sanders

    Kyle Arrington

    Devin McCourty

    As far as BB selected DBs, I'd say those players have been mostly positive players. McCourty was All Pro as a rookie.

    Finally, Meriweather may have been uncoachable and immature, but let's not pretend he wasn't a steady starter on the team from 2008-2010. He, like Chung, just didn't get a second contract because they didn't progress here.

    Going from Harrison to Meriweather is clearly a downgrade.

    But, I repeat, not finding multiple All Pro DBs in the draft in the last 8 years (not 10 as Cuban Troll claims), is in no way why Brady has played so poorly or underperformed in the SB losses.

     




    I expect better from BB, I really do and you should too.  LOL at Meriweather and Chung.  Where are any of these guys and what have they done with other teams?  Nothin!  McCorty is horrible at CB, had 1 good year and found out he is a bit better at safety.  Horrible contract extension to Arrington, btw.  THe current crop has some work to do before we should get excited about having an improved defense.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

    Re: Draft Killers - BB and DBs

    In response to mthurl's comment:

    He has been abysmal in that department, even the players that "made it" would be backups on most teams. It has hurt the team.

     




    I doubt Arrington and Dink could even make the game day roster of any other top 10 team.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Draft Killers - BB and DBs

    In response to CubanPete's comment:

     

    That makes 11 DBs drafted by BB in the first 3 rounds. Only one, McCourty, was a good pick.

     

     



    That is yet to be seen.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from nyjetssuc. Show nyjetssuc's posts

    Re: Draft Killers - BB and DBs

    In response to russgriswold's comment:

    In response to Bungalow-Bill's comment:

     

    Yes queenie, those are all terrific players. If they were drafted by the Jets you would start a thread every day. What a loser you are.

     



    I didn't say they were "terrific".  They aren't Justin Miller or Kylie Wilson, though. bawhaha

     

     




    OH SNAPPPPPPPPPP!!

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Draft Killers - BB and DBs

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

    Yeah that Belichick guy sux

        







    "Defense Wins Championships"



    Man you've really turned the corner, last month I always thought of you as the guy who crapped Darius Butler figurines. Who would of thunk it? 

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Draft Killers - BB and DBs

    In response to zbellino's comment:

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

     

    Without looking it up, I can't name a Ravens CB from last year's playoff run, I remember Reed and Pollard at S, that's it.

    Ladarius Webb, all pro cornerback. 

    Nor can I remember a NYG DB from '11 or a GB DB from '10 (well, S Woodson was there I believe?). I think they were all pretty average to decent players, no stars.

    Antrelle Rolle, and Prince Amukamara?

    Who are SF's CBs, best defense in the league, right? Not because of their DBs.

    Carlos Rogers, pro bowler, two time all pro, is the second best player on that defense, possibly third. No lower. He is legit. 

    Give me average DBs, solid LBs and some heat on the QB and I'm a hero DC.

    Why does it have to be one way or the other? Most defense that have sustained success have both. 

    It's an overrated position.

    Yet, NFL GMs pay it among the highest. 

     




     



    As was pointed out Webb didn't play after getting injured fairly early in the season. 

    Cutting to the chase, I see CBs as fungible. Sure, all things being equal you're a better defense if your CBs are all-world. But, it's difficult to sustain anything without horses up front, active LBs and someone (or two) that can get to the QB. I'd argue also that S is a more critical position than CB. 

    IMO, the biggest issue with the Pats defense the past few years is that the opposing QB has been comfortable. On those occasions when he isn't, they look pretty good. The DBs are, as a group, average. You can be an above average defense with average to below average DBs. But you cannot be an above average defense with average to below average D-line play or LBs, no matter how good your CBs are.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Draft Killers - BB and DBs

    In response to mthurl's comment:

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

     

    Yeah that Belichick guy sux

        







    "Defense Wins Championships"



    Man you've really turned the corner, last month I always thought of you as the guy who crapped Darius Butler figurines. Who would of thunk it? 

     




    That, is funny.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from digger0862. Show digger0862's posts

    Re: Draft Killers - BB and DBs

    In response to mthurl's comment:

    Man you've really turned the corner, last month I always thought of you as the guy who crapped Darius Butler figurines. Who would of thunk it?

    http://naptownsfinest.com/2013/08/03/cb-darius-butler-a-colts-training-camp-standout/

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Draft Killers - BB and DBs

    In response to digger0862's comment:

    In response to mthurl's comment:

    Man you've really turned the corner, last month I always thought of you as the guy who crapped Darius Butler figurines. Who would of thunk it?

    http://naptownsfinest.com/2013/08/03/cb-darius-butler-a-colts-training-camp-standout/

     



    My dirty little secret is that I was psyched when they drafted him..thought he was a superb athlete..great value...was really going to be something. Boy was I wrong. Good to hear he is doing well (well its a little late now, but whatever).

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from digger0862. Show digger0862's posts

    Re: Draft Killers - BB and DBs

    In response to mthurl's comment:

    My dirty little secret is that I was psyched when they drafted him..thought he was a superb athlete..great value...was really going to be something. Boy was I wrong. Good to hear he is doing well (well its a little late now, but whatever).

    Yeah, I had high hopes for that draft class. Chung, Brace, Butler, Vollmer, Tate and McKenzie. Oh well. Even the best make mistakes.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: Draft Killers - BB and DBs

    "But, I repeat"

    yes, you do. Again, and again, and again. 

    "not finding multiple All Pro DBs in the draft in the last 8 years (not 10 as Cuban Troll claims), is in no way why Brady has played so poorly or underperformed in the SB losses"

    Let's grant your premise that Brady underperformed in a couple of Super  Bowls for the sake of trying to argue this a different way. 

    1. Without Brady you aren't in those Super Bowls. Your failure to understand or acknowledge that is absurdity. If you could at least grant that point, your argument would be more logical as less full of Belichick-is-God holes. 

    2. When the opposing defense can put four on the line of scrimmage and create intense pressure while covering the backfield, your QB is going to struggle. I don't care who he is. That's why we talk about TEAM LOSSES in football while you are busing making a Brady scarecrow in your backyard. 

    3. A confidence a quarterback feels in his defense absolutely relieves the pressure he feels offensively. The stronger the defense, the looser you play. This is basic psychology and not hard to understand. 

    When Ty Law is returning interceptions into the end zone in big games, things tend to work out better. Not having playmakers in the secondary on the defense has hurt us. 

    But i get it, Brady is the goat. Good thing we have Tebow.

    A defense that can't force key turnovers in big games and can't get the other team off the field absolutely puts pressure on the quarterback. Let me know if you want some psychology textbooks to help you understand this.

     

     

         

     
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