***Draft Thoughts***

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

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    [QUOTE]Chandler Jones - Certainly has the size/length/athleticism that BB covets in the mold of Big Willie and that appears to be how they intend to use him at this point.  Has the ability to play 43 DE and will play 34 OLB as well.  Huge upside with this kid. Dont'a Hightower - My favorite pick in this class, big, versatile, proven, smart... could start at/play any LB position in either scheme, IMO... also has the ability to put his hand in the dirt, rush off the edge when they go 43.  I really like his pass rush upside. Tavon Wilson - Tough to get excited about this one, the kid was generally rated as a Rd 6-7 prospect and most would be hard pressed  to view him as the best S remaining on the board, let alone the BPA.  Certainly have to give BB/NC the benefit of the doubt until we can see him play, but wow did this one come out of no where... similar to when Al Davis took unknown Ohio S Mike Mitchell in Rd 2 of the2009 draft.  Curious to know if he was another teams radar given that BB didn't trade back here as on the surface, one would think he would've been available later on Day 2.    Pick 62 - Their compensation seemed a bit light (90 &163), especially considering the Browns traded pick 67 for 87 and 120.  Jake Bequette - I like this pick too, another kid with the height/length/motor that BB covets.  Kid can rush the passer, and while it appears to signal a shift to more 43, it gives them depth/size/length/pass rush ability on the edge to play 34... some solid athleticism and versatility. Fans have been clamoring for BB to draft pass rush talent for years, and that is  just what he did. Overall, I'm stoked about this size/length/skill/versatility/edge rush ability that was brought in in this class. 
    Posted by mbeaulieu07[/QUOTE]

    (NOTE: Credit to NYPat for fishing this out)

    "But others might look closer and learn that Wilson had seven teams that brought him in for visits (Buccaneers, Texans, Cardinals, Falcons, Colts, Ravens, Chargers), while Patriots director of player personnel Nick Caserio and director of college scouting Jon Robinson -- along with another club -- worked him out privately.

    So while draft analysts might have missed the mark on Wilson, it's not like other teams in the league were sleeping on him and the positive traits that made him a desirable prospect. In recent weeks Wilson was a "travel guy" in scouting circles, the player who has a high volume of visits as clubs attempt to gather more information on him before setting their draft board."

     

    BAM! MB, I know you haven't been one of the highly critical ones, but I'm sharing this everywhere possible.

     

    http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/7865727/tavon-wilson-reach-round-2-not-bill-belichick
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

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    Lombardi just summed up my feelings on nfl ntk. The pats have won 27 games the last 2 years. Aside from Brady they are a very young team.why trade down and accumulate more picks when chances are you don't have a spot for them anyway? Especially after being the most active team in FA! Lombardi then goes on to say that when he and BB studied pass rushers they looked at the short shuttle times. He said Bequette had a short shuttle time of 4.07 which was comparable to janoris Jenkins and some of the best CB's in the draft! Wow. High motor high effort edge rusher. Perfect.
     
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    [QUOTE]Obviously the choice of Wilson is overshadowing almost everything else. I say let's at least wait until August/September when he steps on the field before ripping the choice.  Maybe they use him at corner as well as safety.  The last 5 years our secondary has been a war of attrition.  His durability alone may make him valuable.  He doesn't have the height to go up against big WRs but they may work him in in nickel packages.
    Posted by nyjoseph[/QUOTE]

    I don't think the Wilson pick is overshadowing everything, if it is, then people haven't done their homework.  Jones is a kid with huge upside and both he and Hightower (one of the most versatile kids in this class and a player I love) should be day 1 starters in Foxboro.  They also pulled a long DE/OLB with a big motor, huge production and excellent movement skills in Rd 3.

    They address huge needs.
     
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    [QUOTE]I am floored at the negative response of this draft. If you told me a week ago that BB will get 2 DE/OLB's a safety and probably the most versatile LBer in the draft in the 1st 2 rounds I wouldn't have believed it. I mean this is exactly what we needed and fans are throwing up all over themselves. Anyway, I noticed as soon as Wilson was picked Mayock says this kid was flying up teams draft boards. BB took him for a reason. 3 year starter in a great program. Very good measurables. Wilson also reminds of Eugene Wilson who played the same position from the same school. A versatile player who can move all over the secondary. Bequette's description oncbs sports literally says a " versatile Mike Vrabel type player" 6'5 275 with great cone and shuttle times. A 4 year starter!!! Very smart. Excellent pick. The defense just got athletic and the pass rush has been fortified by 3 of the 4 players we selected. Draft grade = A +
    Posted by TrueChamp[/QUOTE]
    I heard Mayock say this as well, thought I was alone.  Very good points TC.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from MoreRings. Show MoreRings's posts

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***Draft Thoughts*** : The negativity from fans is tied mostly to BB not drafting a household name at 48 and the apparent lack of value trading down with pick 62.  BB and Co. deserve the benefit of the doubt. Overall, I think the fan response has been positive, fans were elated at the end of Day 1. Overall, I'm stoked about this class... a ton of size/length/versatility/athleticism and pass rush ability.
    Posted by mbeaulieu07[/QUOTE]

    No doubt, day 2 was a let down after the big splash on day 1. 

    Overall,  this has the potential to be  a great draft.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from fl+adam,. Show fl+adam,'s posts

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    I think Wilson was a need pick.  Everyone know/knew the Pats needed a S.  So the negative talk is not that they drafted a S, but rather they drafted the wrong one?  We all know BB is very picky on what he looks for at certain positions.  I'm am 100% sure BB drafted the safety he thought most fit his vision and system.  Can we fault him for that?  Wilson might not have been the best player, most would agrue he was not.  But it is nearly impossible for us fans to say he was not the best Fit on the board at safety.  We have never met the guy, have seen minimal video, and just look at the draft experts grades on the players on how good they are.  Again, he is probably not the best overall player, but can any argue that he is not the best fit at safety for the pats on the board?  We do not have enough info on either the player or what BB wants his system to be next year to argue that.

    Now we can certainly argue about which holes BB should have been filling with his top 3 picks...wait, OLB, DE, and S were pretty much the consensus 3 biggest holes. 

    I guess all we can argue about now is how BB didn't get enough for the 90th pick...at least compared to the trade listed above.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

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    [QUOTE]Posted in another thread - but I think worth saying again ...BB praised NC for preserving the two 2nd round picks on day one with the trades up. But I don't think there were any surprise picks after pick #25, and if BB had Wilson as his top day 2 target, then why was preserving both round 2s necessary? I got to believe if NC offered Denver #62 instead of #126, he could have gotten a round three pick as well as #25. We would have the same two draftees on day two and still have our original round 4 rather than a late round 5 pick. I also really do wonder if both trades in round 1 were necessary? I think Houston was the only threat for Jones, and GB was the only threat for Hightower once he got past Pitt. I think the trade with Denver was probably the only necessary one. My overall take - Hightower and Bequette are the only two picks I am excited about. I know folks are high on Jones, but I think he is a 50/50 proposition who needs to develop. Not going to comment on our round 2 pick. I do trust BB the coach, but I am not that thrilled with BB the college talent evaluator.
    Posted by mia76[/QUOTE]

         Jones likely would have been gone, had the Pats not made a move on him. Houston at #26 (who ended up taking pass-rusher Whitney Mercilus), Detroit at #23, or Cleveland at #22, might have taken him...plus there was always the possibility that Baltimore, the Giants, or Green Bay would have moved up to get him. As for Hightower, Baltimore would have definately nabbed him at #29. 

         I have no problem with what and why the Pats did what they did on day one. But, day two is an entirely different story. The Pats didn't get the value they should have gotten out of their two second round picks. They basically squandered them. Very disappointing.
     
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    [QUOTE]It's also funny that none of the ESPN/NFL Network analysts had the balls to rip the pick, or atleast I don't remember them ripping the pick... similar to how they talked about TJ Graham being drafted too high by the Bills, then panned to Mayock's draft board card to show where he had him ranked (Rd 7, etc.)
    Posted by mbeaulieu07[/QUOTE]

         True...LOL!!! But, the criticisms are beginning to mount now: http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/09000d5d828b2d14/article/2012-nfl-draft-winners-losers-from-second-and-third-rounds 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

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    [QUOTE]I think Wilson was a need pick.  Everyone know/knew the Pats needed a S.  So the negative talk is not that they drafted a S, but rather they drafted the wrong one?

    RESPONSE: No, Adam. The criticisms are due to when the Pats' selected him. Using the mid-second round 48th overall pick to get him was very poor value for such a high pick. Most folks here, myself included, believe that Wilson could have been had much later in the draft...anywhere from round 5-7. If the Pats wanted this guy so badly, they should have traded down from the 48th pick. 
         My guess is that BB got caught up in a time squeeze. Someone he really wanted to take at #48 was scooped up right before the Pats' picked...leaving them to pull the trigger on Wilson. If that was the case, BB should have been ready with a Plan B, insteading of simply reaching for Wilson.  
         This kid had better pan out. If folks think that BB is being heavily criticized now...just wait and see what happens if this kid turns out to be another Terrence Wheatley/Darius Butler.  


    We all know BB is very picky on what he looks for at certain positions.  I'm am 100% sure BB drafted the safety he thought most fit his vision and system.  Can we fault him for that?

    RESPONSE: We're not faulting him for taking the guy he thought was the best safety available for his system. We're faulting him for using such a high draft choice to select him. 

    Wilson might not have been the best player, most would agrue he was not.  But it is nearly impossible for us fans to say he was not the best Fit on the board at safety.  We have never met the guy, have seen minimal video, and just look at the draft experts grades on the players on how good they are.  Again, he is probably not the best overall player, but can any argue that he is not the best fit at safety for the pats on the board?

    RESPONSE: Again...that's not the argument folks here are making. It's the fact that BB passed on many more highly rated players at #48, in order to reach for this kid. 

    We do not have enough info on either the player or what BB wants his system to be next year to argue that. Now we can certainly argue about which holes BB should have been filling with his top 3 picks...wait, OLB, DE, and S were pretty much the consensus 3 biggest holes.  I guess all we can argue about now is how BB didn't get enough for the 90th pick...at least compared to the trade listed above.

    RESPONSE: The argument is that BB didn't get enough value for the 48th overall pick, either. The Wilson kid likely would have still been available in the later rounds. 
    Posted by fl+adam,[/QUOTE]
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***Draft Thoughts*** : No doubt, day 2 was a let down after the big splash on day 1.  Overall,  this has the potential to be  a great draft.
    Posted by MoreRings[/QUOTE]

         Correction...this had the potential of being a great draft...until the Wilson pick yesterday.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***Draft Thoughts*** :      True...LOL!!! But, the criticisms are beginning to mount now: http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/09000d5d828b2d14/article/2012-nfl-draft-winners-losers-from-second-and-third-rounds  
    Posted by TexasPat[/QUOTE]

    Well, if Chad Reuter says it . . .
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from mrbungle. Show mrbungle's posts

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    I am looking at this draft as a little icing on the cake. 

    We get Hightower, Jones, Bequette, Wilson and a coming 5th rounder. 

    Adding these picks to what we've acquired via FA:

    Jonathan Fanene (DE)

    Marcus Harrison (DT)

    Danile Fells (TE)

    Robert Gallery (G)

    Anthony Gonzalez (WR)

    Brandon Lloyd (WR)

    Trevor Scott (DE)

    Steve Gregory (S)


    Now we add these players that should be 100% for this upcoming season that we never saw much of but, could be huge if they play to their abilities:

    Shane Vereen (RB)

    Ras-I Dowling (CB)

    Marcus Cannon (T)

    This is the Big Picture to me. Our DL is looking very deep which I love. We have greatly improved our ability to put pressure on opposing QB's which only serves to help our DB's play. Our rushing defense is also greatly improved. I had kind of wished we grabbed Reuben Randle over Wilson but, this is a "trust the hoodie" pick. He had to have seen something that stood out to him. 

    Personally, I'd love to see Joseph Addai added to the mix as well or at least a good veteran RB that can contribute. Maybe even another veteran WR. 

    Who knows, sometimes 5th round picks can turn into big time players. Maybe we get a real sleeper here with this pick? It'd be nice.

    But step back and look at these players above. Fanene will prove to be a valuable player for us. Having Gallery is huge for us. Fells is a solid TE. If Ras-I stays healthy? That's crucial for us. If Gonzalez can too? Fantastic. Really pulling for Cannon to get some time and show us the player he is. 

    I see the Patriots as loaded right now and looking through the roster, I see a team that went 13-3 without a pass rush and poor secondary as greatly improved. Is that amazing or what? 13-3 last year and now we have a pass rush. Now we have what could be the best LB corps in the NFL! I mean, Mayo, Spikes and Hightower? We can truly go 3-4 or 4-3 with ease now on defense. Imagine Mayo, Spikes and Hightower along with Chandler Jones in some 3-4 sets? I don't know about you but, visualizing that in your mind is enough to get anyone excited. 

    I'm not worried one bit. I am not going to look at this draft alone as the improvements we've made. Nope. We've done waaaay more than that. BB has quietly assembled a total team and addressed several concerns with savvy moves. 

    A+ grade for me this offseason. I don't see it any other way. 

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

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    Well done Mrbungle, its nice to see all the offseason pickups listed with the draftee's. We sure have been busy. Great job by BB and staff of addressing needs. Shoot 2 DE/OLB pass rushers, a safety and stud all purpose LB in the 1st 3 rounds....thank you!!!
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***Draft Thoughts*** : The negativity from fans is tied mostly to BB not drafting a household name at 48 and the apparent lack of value trading down with pick 62.

    RESPONSE: No! The negativity is due to BB failing to get full value for his two second round picks. Wilson had no business going so early, at #48. At #62, BB failed to get good value in his trade-down. Plus, the guy he selected with the low 3rd rounder (90th overall), Jake Bequette, was projected by most draft publications to be a 5th round pick. 

    BB and Co. deserve the benefit of the doubt.
     
    RESPONSE: Why? His track record on draft choices taken in the first three rounds is awful.
         In the great 2010 draft, there were still OLB Jermaine Cunningham (53rd overall), and WR Taylor Price (90th).
        In 2009...there were wasted high second rounders DT Ron Brace (40th overall), and CB Darius Butler (41st)...and wasted third rounders, WR Brandon Tate (83rd) and ILB Tyrone McKenzie (97th).
         In 2008, there was CB Terrence Wheatley (62nd), OLB Shawn Crable (78th), and QB Kevin O'Connell (94th).
         In 2007, there was FS Brandon Meriweather (24th).
         In the disastrous 2006 draft, there was RB Laurence Maroney (21st), WR Chad Jackson (36th), and TE David Thomas (86th).

         This literary graveyard of missed opportunities is the main reason why the Patriots' haven't won another SB since the 2004 season. BB's drafting record reflects that, from 2006-10, he's had just 6 hits (Mayo, Chung, Vollmer, McCourty, Gronk, and Spikes) out of 19 tries, with first, second, and third round picks. Based on this sorry record, why does BB automatically deserve the benefit of the doubt?     


    Overall, I think the fan response has been positive, fans were elated at the end of Day 1. Overall, I'm stoked about this class... a ton of size/length/versatility/athleticism and pass rush ability.

    RESPONSE: I too was elated after day one, and liked the 2012 draft class. But, BB's awful performance on day two has tempered my enthusiasm, and ruined any opportunity of having a truly great draft class.
         That said, if both #1 picks Jones and Hightower pan out, the draft must be considered a success. But, if Wilson crashes and burns, Patriots' fans will be left to wonder what could have been, at #48 and #62.

    Posted by mbeaulieu07[/QUOTE]
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from fl+adam,. Show fl+adam,'s posts

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***Draft Thoughts*** :
    Posted by TexasPat[/QUOTE]

    BB obviously disagrees with you and others about his value.  We will see who is right. 
     
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    I am rooting for Nate Ebner to make the team and become a stand out special team player.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from portfolio1. Show portfolio1's posts

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    Thoughts? Well, here is a thought:

    With this draft the Pats really upgraded their D. Big time. They added physical, talented players. They significantly upgraded their pass rush. They improved their run D. They became more physical on D. They may have helped their secondary... maybe significantly.

    They got a HUGE DL player in Jones. THey got a HUGE LB who is both very physical and very , very versatile (OLB, ILB, DE, edge setter.... ). They got a good DE with a good pass rush, good run D and lots of upside. Their questionable pick is also a hitter and a good special teams player and does cover a good amount of ground on D. ALL these players have high motors (inlcuding the questionable one). 

    In the late rounds where you take some shots they got a guy who, if he grows up quickly could be a starting CB for an NFL team with a good secondary. THat means he makes our secondary better! And another DB who is a really good athlete, high character, high motor, great locker room presence.

    THe guy I didnt mention is a decent slot receiver who was productive in college.

    So they got hitter, physical players, PASS RUSH, PASS RUSH, run D, versatility, character.

    THink of the physcial play of this combo: Mayo, Spikes, Hightower! And Vinny to that! Add Chung! THis D is getting physical.

    THink of a pass rush with guys like Vinny, Jones, Carter, Hightower, Bequette, Mayo, .. heck Wilson is said to be a good blitzer!

    Add Dennard to pass coverage. (and Maybe Wilson will press for time at S). Dowling gets healthy....

    In any case.... what they ADDED via the draft is BIG. If you don't see it then look again. OF COURSE WE WONT REALLY KNOW FOR A YEAR OR TWO OR THREE. But it sure looks to me on film and paper that this was a big time draft.

    Get excited boys!


     
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    [QUOTE]Wilson was good because Rodney was there, he got hurt and he was lost. Gone soon after that. The importance of a leader in the Defensive Backfield.
    Posted by bobbysu[/QUOTE]

    Good point about Rodneys little brother Eugene
     
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    [QUOTE]     One thing I expect this year is a lot of fluidity on defense, with BB using guys in "tweener" type roles, so it's hard to say whether a guy is a corner or safety, a safety or LB, an ILB or an OLB, or an OLB or DE, or a DE or DT.  There will be 2, 3, 4, and 5 man lines, with various combos of DBs and LBs.  It should be a lot of fun to watch and confusing for offenses.  That's the great thing about posiiton versatility.  The potential downside is that no one will be great at any one thing and so we have a lot of verstatile players but no shut down corner and no ferocious pass rusher (though I'm hoping Jones will prove to be the latter).  
    Posted by prolate0spheroid[/QUOTE]

    BB answers a question on versatility . . . yep, defense should be fun to watch next year.  Can't wait! 

    Q: It seems like you have versatility all over the defense now after the draft and free agency. Do you think you'll be able to do a lot of different things this year with that versatility all over the defense?   

    BB: That's a great question. We'll see. Until we actually get out there and start doing it, we'll see how much versatility we actually do have. I do think that with some of the players we've added on the defensive side of the ball, guys have different skills and maybe they will be able to do some different things for us. It's hard to say exactly what that will be until you actually get them doing it and putting it all together to see how effective we are individually and collectively as a team doing different things, changing things up and how versatile the players are. But on paper, I think there're some possibilities for that. We'll see how it actually goes, what we're actually able to do with it. It will be interesting to see how it goes with some of those players.
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***Draft Thoughts*** : I mean, if he pans out, the pick is justified so we'll have to wait and see... certainly doesn't excite you though... though unfortunately that's based on where the rest of the scouting community had him rated. To put a positive spin on it, one has to think that they weren't the only team that coveted him as they didn't trade down or pick someone else in that slot.
    Posted by mbeaulieu07[/QUOTE]


    wilson seems to be another 'utility knife" which bb loves, also with smarts, character and leadership. bb in my view values utility TOO much, not only not great at any one thing, but not good at any one thing. just  a player who can do a lot of things.
     
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    [QUOTE]It's also funny that none of the ESPN/NFL Network analysts had the balls to rip the pick, or atleast I don't remember them ripping the pick... similar to how they talked about TJ Graham being drafted too high by the Bills, then panned to Mayock's draft board card to show where he had him ranked (Rd 7, etc.)
    Posted by mbeaulieu07[/QUOTE]


    i noticed this mb, and posted the same on another thread
     
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    [QUOTE]I really like Hightower. When I think of all the best defenses in the NFL they all have deep LB cores. 49ers, Steelers, Jets a coule years ago, etc. the Pats were 2 deep in a position that puts 4 on the field at a time (Spikes, Mayo). I would have liked to see some help on the line but I'm excited to see this defense with Mayo, Spikes, and Hightower roaming around next to Jones or Fanene or whoever. I don't know much about Wilson but I'm hoping he or somebody else can play next to Chung. I like the way the defense is shaping up right now. I wasn't big on grabbing a receiver this year. With Welker (probably), Lloyd, Branch, Ocho, Stallworth, Gonzalez, Slater, and Edelman two of those guys will be cut. If they grab a receiver than they cut a third to make room for a guy who probably sits and develops for a year.
    Posted by shenanigan[/QUOTE]

    we had a shot at players near the likes of andre johnson and took a guy who wouldnt have beeen drafted. to me inexcusable
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***Draft Thoughts*** :      With players that the Pats could have really used, such as:   49. Chargers - Kendall Reyes - DT - Connecticut 50. Rams - Isaiah Pead - RB - Cincinnati 51. Packers - Jerel Worthy - DT - Michigan State 52. Titans - Zach Brown - LB - North Carolina 53. Bengals - Devon Still - DT - Penn State 54. Lions - Ryan Broyles - WR - Oklahoma 55. Falcons - Peter Konz - C - Wisconsin 56. Steelers - Mike Adams - OT - Ohio State 57. Broncos - Brock Osweiler - QB - Arizona State 58. Buccaneers - Lavonte David - OLB - Nebraska 59. Eagles - Vinny Curry - DE - Marshall 60. Ravens - Kelechi Osemele - OG - Iowa State 61. 49ers - LaMichael James - RB - Oregon 62. Packers - Casey Hayward - CB - Vanderbilt 63. Giants - Rueben Randle - WR - LSU 64. Colts - Dwayne Allen -TE - Clemson 65. Rams - Trumaine Johnson - CB - Montana  66. Vikings - Josh Robinson - CB - Central Florida  the Wilson selection really bites. Hope I'm wrong.    
    Posted by TexasPat[/QUOTE]


    tex,
     wish you extended that list of players further. lots of good big wr's to go along with those d line and  dbs
     
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    [QUOTE]Posted in another thread - but I think worth saying again ...BB praised NC for preserving the two 2nd round picks on day one with the trades up. But I don't think there were any surprise picks after pick #25, and if BB had Wilson as his top day 2 target, then why was preserving both round 2s necessary? I got to believe if NC offered Denver #62 instead of #126, he could have gotten a round three pick as well as #25. We would have the same two draftees on day two and still have our original round 4 rather than a late round 5 pick. I also really do wonder if both trades in round 1 were necessary? I think Houston was the only threat for Jones, and GB was the only threat for Hightower once he got past Pitt. I think the trade with Denver was probably the only necessary one. My overall take - Hightower and Bequette are the only two picks I am excited about. I know folks are high on Jones, but I think he is a 50/50 proposition who needs to develop. Not going to comment on our round 2 pick. I do trust BB the coach, but I am not that thrilled with BB the college talent evaluator.
    Posted by mia76[/QUOTE]

    i concur.
    jones was picked for his upsaide.
    if he and mayock are right, we may end up being happy in 2 to 3 yrs
     

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