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  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

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    John,

    Our front seven is a lot closer to the Ravens and Steelers than our back four are.

    Their back four are loaded with all star caliber players, and ours has a one OK corner, a young but emergin safety, and a bunch of unproven players.

    We need more at both levels, but we cannot compare Ed Reed, Samari Rolle and Chris McCallister, or Troy Polomalu, Deshea Townsend and Bryant McFadden, to Meriweather, Hobbs and Sanders. It just isn't even the same league.

    Whereas you could compare Vrabel, Thomas, and Mayo against Farrior, Woodley and Harrison, when both units are healthy and there isn't a huge discrepancy in talent given that Woodley and Harrison jst both had career seasons.

    BTW, McFadden is a free agent too.

    I don't write any of them off. But I feel very shaky about relying on Wheatley for anything. His big knock coming out of Colorado was the pin in his wristthat required three surgeries. Like magic he is having surgery again. Being realistic that doesn't bode very well for his career. It is just a sober way to look at it, IMO.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnHannahrulz. Show JohnHannahrulz's posts

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    [Quote]true about wheatly and crable but gay sucked he didnt progress law was a first round pick and wilson was average as well and well asante was rare but was good u cant rely on the past especiall when wilson was ok gay sucked and law was a first rounder with talent[/Quote]
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from RandyMossinThem. Show RandyMossinThem's posts

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    crable is strong and at agood size for a rushing olb his legs are a little small and could get bigger but hey will will see with that situation . wheatly is a liability he seems really fragile so we still need adress the cb wilhite wasnt a high pick he went 4th round . why do u hate the fack of a bigger corner we need a shutdown guy end it at that even vontae davis would be good
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

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    I don't know that there is a philosphy here. Wheatley was supposed to be a very physcial corner. He is hurt again. They don't go out thinking "lets draft corners who can't press." They look for the smart guys and work their way down. Last year I thought Wheatley would answer some of the toughness issues that were lacking in Samuel and Hobbs. He broke his wrist. C'est la vie.

    Second, Crable projects fine at OLB. His problem isn't run coverage it has been pass coverage all along. I don't understand why BB has the perfect CB philosphy but all of a sudden can't draft a linebacker. They got him specifically because he has the overall tools to be an outside linebacker here. Not to play 4-3 for another team.

    And Sey and Fork will reup and cancel each other out. Sey's cap figure is a lot more than it should be and Forks is a lot less. When they both resign they will meet in the middle. It will only effect the cap by about $1.5 or 2 million to get both on board.

    And you are missing the point. NE hasn't done just fine the last few seasons.
    It has been OK, and bolstered by a solid offense, and pass rush. But our defense routinely gives up extra yardage after the first hit, and fails to make tackles and big plays that involve the secondary.

    Moreover, it got tragically worse last season. WE went from a solid seconday to a poor secondary.

    NE looked awful. We had one of the worst pass defenses in the league and were gashed routinely for long plays. NE gave up more 40 yard + plays than any team except the Jaguars, and allowed the 23rd highest opposing rating. They also had a league worst 3rd down rating that is directly atributable to bad DB play.

    Getting gashed by Favre was a huge disappointment. Getting gashed by Seneca Wallace was just embarassing.

    They need to address that.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

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    Randy,

    Ne needs both, and relying on Crable or Wheatley to come to the rescue is silly. Neither one has yet to play a healthy NFL season, or prove they are really starters.

    A second and third rounder is not "game over" for our secondary. There is good talent that could be brought it. McFadden would be a great addition and os would Gamble ifthey could find a way. We don't need a shutdown guy, but NE does need more help in the back eight on both levels.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriots. Show themightypatriots's posts

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    Z,

    Wheatley and Wilhite fit the same profile as Hobbs and Samuel: quick, agile, and excelent at stripping the ball. BB/SP have publicly said many times this is what they are looking for in a CB.

    Why do you keep implying I said something about BB's ability to draft an OLB? All I said was he didn't pick any last year, other than Redd. Crable is not a 1st down OLB in our system. He does not have the build to set the edge. You are simply wrong on this point.
    The past three seasons we've been #2, #4 and #8 in points allowed. Maybe we've had problems in this area or that area, but overall we've maintained a consistently strong D. There are no glaring needs. We just need to continue to build up depth.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

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    Mighty,

    They did draft an OLB in the third round. It was Crable. At this point you are just pretending they didn't.

    You are sooo of on Crable I just can't continue. I watched him play in college. He was a great run stopper. It is one of his two dominant skills.

    He has the same OLB build that BB has drafted in Woods, Redd, etc. He likes long lean atheltic players like Taylor was for the Fins. It is the exact same profile BB looks for every time.

    But just for proof. He was listed OLB on the depth chart before his injury.
    And here is the scouting report:

    "Crable is a big outside linebacker, who is a perfect fit for the Patriots. He does have thin legs, but you can use him in pass rushing situations and get some production for him. He had 16 sacks in college. While Crable is limited in pass coverage, he has great run-stopping skills and can be a good special teams coverage player."

    http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/shawn-crable?id=214


    Here is moreform Scouts.com:

    "Crable projects best as a pass rushing OLB, particularly in a 3-4 defensive scheme. However, his coverage skills and experience at DE could lead a team to use him at DE on third downs. Crable has the potential to be an Adalius Thomas type defender in the NFL."

    "Crable has shown he's one of the top four or five 3-4 outside linebackers available this year. He will most likely be taken sometime in the third round."

    http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/profile_display.cfm?Prospect_ID=1203


    Here is where he is listed as NE's OLB on NFL.com
    http://www.nfl.com/players/shawncrable/gamelogs?id=CRA050645

    There are links to BB press conferences where he introduces him as a OLB like Pierre Woods and talks about how good his frame is for the position.

    Here is video of him getting reps before his injury as a 3-4 OLB. Other than special teams it was the only spot he tooks reps in.

    http://www.patriots.com/mediacenter/index.cfm?ac=videonewsdetail&pid=33535&pcid=141&rss=1

    And here is what BB said when asked about how he projects as an OLB:

    "Both English and Bill Belichick believe that Crable is more of a linebacker than a defensive end, though the possibility exists he could do both. "He has a tall thin frame, but he's got exceptional strength," Belichick said. "He plays a lot stronger than he looks. He sits kind of like a basketball player, but he has good upper body strength and he plays with good leverage."

    I am sorry. But Shawne Crable is a 3-4 OLB, and is an excellent run stopper. His weakness all along has been pass coverage. Not plugging a gap. And certainly not bossing around a TE on an edge, which he is more than powerful enough to do.

    Anything else is just your opinion on Crable, who I strongly doubt you have watched much.

    In that case, I am inclined to believe what I have seen with my own eyes, and what I have read from numerous scouts that look at him as a great prospect to play 3-4 OLB on the rush side where he won't have to cover RB's and slot men.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from RandyMossinThem. Show RandyMossinThem's posts

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    Z good work exactly what i said up there but in more depth proving that guy up there that he is clearly wrong and talking out his A$$
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from titletownfan. Show titletownfan's posts

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    Yeah guys, don't go calling Crable a bust. Kid looked like a beast in the pre-season, shame he got injured, really wanted to see him, and the Pats could have needed him.

    I don't think we should take a LB in the 1st round, instead, wait till the 2nd Day and take anybody who slipped out of the first few rounds, always a few of those. I feel we have some solid young LB's, but we need to get rid of Alexander, Izzo, and those guys.

    Some LB's we can get later include Zach Forsett and Jasper Brickley, Brickly was a 1st round prospect until he blew out his knee, a nice risk in the 5th-6th round.

    I like Gresham with our pick in Round 1, and the selecting Vontae Davis with the other pick (Minny, Detroit)

    I think Patrick Chung and an OT would be good in rd 2

    On day 2, Select Zach Forsett and a OG in rd 3, Pat White in Rd 4, Brinkley in Rd 5, and go Best Available 6-7, prefer RB, OL, or DL
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from titletownfan. Show titletownfan's posts

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    Also, see if we can somehow get Dominique Johnson in the draft.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriots. Show themightypatriots's posts

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    Hey, I get my information from the best sports writer who posts regular updates on this website in the column Reiss' Pieces. His name is Mike Reiss. And last time I checked, he never made up a story about the Patriots video taping other teams practicing before the Super Bowl. That alone makes him the most reliable daily columnist in all of Boston.

    And if you read Reiss back in training camp (how many of your Scouts were at Pats training camp every day?), he said Crable projected as a 2nd and 3rd down pass rusher. Maybe he's not as good in pass coverage as I thought he was, but that hardly makes him a better 3-4 OLB.

    Stopping the run and setting the edge is the first priority for 3-4 OLBs in our system. He might rush the passer well from the OLB position, but that doesn't make him a 3-4 OLB. He wasn't on the line in college, so how do you know from all your tape that he can set the edge?

    Maybe he will turn out to be a great every down OLB for us. But his build is completely different from every other OLB we've had -Vrabel, Willie, Colvin, AD, even TBC. You say he's strong enough despite his build. We shall see. I say, BB continues to look for OLBs for the future, and his plan isn't to have Crable be his starting first down OLB.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from RandyMossinThem. Show RandyMossinThem's posts

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    riess isnt a scout and just because he didnt post about video taping doesnt mean he is an all out scout its just no enouf evidence till we see him next year how do you not think he is a every down backer he is big and rugged . He had a pic in preaseason and looks to be a good athlete. If anything redd needs to work on his build he will be pretty good nxt year we also have angelo craig. Darrel Robertson. they both have good builds and rush.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from garytx. Show garytx's posts

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    ricky - take Gresham off your wish list. He's not coming out.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

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    Mighty,

    You really are stating a wierd case here. When is an OLB not an OLB? You can say they didn't draft one, but as a prospect for an every day player in thsi system he ranks ahead of Wilhite, and factoring in injury concerns ahead of Wheatley at this point.

    He is an OLB. He was drafted as an OLB. They didn't use a first day selection on a kid because they thought he could play one down. Reiss' prediction is merely about hwo he fits in in the short term. The same thing could be said of every single 3-4 OLB prospect coming out (and it is I have been reading this stuff for over a decade) because pass rush situations don't ask for the palyer to diagnose the action. The idea being that as they get a grip on the system (hopefully) they can come in on other downs where they have to diagnose a play as opposed to pinning their ears back and going after someone, which is a much more natural skill.

    That said, let's just let it drop. This is counter productive in every possible way. And there is no case that you can state to make me feel comfortable going into next season with this defensive backfield, regardless of what position you think Crable does or doesn't play.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnHannahrulz. Show JohnHannahrulz's posts

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    Some of us need to chill. We have decent young players that need to develop and they can't do that without PT. You don't get PT when your injured. It's a bit silly to compare Meriweather (year 2) vs. Harrison (year 15 ?); Law (year 3 0r 4) vs. Wilhite or Wheatley (year 1 !) or Samuel (year 2 or 3). It's the draft, some times you hit the jackpot in 3rd or 4th some times you don't. What you don't do is give up on a rookie that had injury plagued season. Imagine the Bengals saying well Rivers used to look good, but he's injured so now is an ideal time to evaluate whether or not he'll be a productive member of the football team.

    I'll also say that I am a big fan of the coverage sack (good coverage+ good pass rush = sack). I don't think the D Line needs to be addressed until 3rd or 4th round, unless the Pats are going to let one of Seymour or Wilfork bolt eventually. This is my way of saying it is depth issue not a pressing need.

    I like the way Crable and Guyton played when they got the chance. They'll get stronger and better. Whether or not either of them projects to be an every down LB remains to be seen. Like I said last year, I expect Mayo to be good, but for the other rookie LBs it's a tough line-up to crack when the Pats have Vrabel, Thomas Seau (at the time)Bruschi. We are talking about 4 LBs that have made the pro=bowl at one point in time. To think some LB the Pats drafted in the 4th is going take PT and become the next Terrell Suggs or young Colvin is pretty unrealistic. Some of these players (secondary included) will take time to develop. I'd love for the Pats D to be a replica of the 07 pro-bowl roster, but that simply will not happen. The D will improve with more PT for the young 'uns, via the draft, and free agency.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

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    What up Hannah,

    I agree. Although I would say that Rivers looked a heck of a bunch better than Crable and Wheatley put together. Also, Wheatley's injury raises not just serious but grave concerns about his future in the NFL. They will not simply release him, but having his surgically reconstructed wrist bust open again had to send shivers down their spines as it is essentially worst case scenerio with such a promising selection.

    Any kid who cna be a big time playmaker in the Big-12 conference, which is stocked with high efficieny spread offenses is worth looking at. His game was awesome, but he was viewed as a reach based on concerns about that wrist. Literally,a ton of scouts doubted that he could ever sustain an NFL career because it had become so fragile.

    If I am NE I am looking for insurance via free agency or the draft now. Especially after seeing what the secondary looked like this season.

    And I am glad you appreciate the fact that a ton of sacks do come from pass coverage. Simply bull rushing the QB isn't enough in an era that has seen the proliferation is ultra-quick timing passes and coach to QB coordination that allows QBs to get the play in and come to line in time to adjust.

    Moreover, great coverage can turn an incomplete hurry into an intercepted hurry.

    I don't expect any of those players to emerge right away. But I expect this NE team to try and add more talent at a few positions because when healthy this club is competitive with anyone, and a few more players makes them stratospheric.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriots. Show themightypatriots's posts

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    Z,

    If we drop this, the only conversations on this forum will be about NYC and the trolls, and you know how I love that ...

    I think a good analogy to Crable is Jarvis Green. Is he a 3-4 DE? Kind of. Does he two-gap very well? No. Does he rush the passer well (prior to this season)? Yes. Would we want him as our starting DE? No. So you might say Crable is the Green of the linebacking corps.

    At least acknowledge that Crable doesn't compare physically to any of our OLBs this decade except Woods. And even Woods is a little bulkier, but, let's be honest, hasn't excelled at his position. Maybe Crable will bulk up. Maybe he's so uber-strong he doesn't have to. I say we should look for whoever is out there to fill in the depth behind Vrabel, AD, and Rosie (yes, Rosie, I'm not counting him out). Except for Suggs. He can stay in Baltimore cleaning up after Ed Reed.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from RandyMossinThem. Show RandyMossinThem's posts

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    hat do u think of curry from wake forest.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

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    Dude Green is not a 3-4 end. He never plays 3-4 end. He wasn't drafted with that in mind either. The Pats already carry four 3-4 ends. Sey, Warren,Wright and LeKevin Smith.

    Green's position is defensive end in NE's 4-3 subs. When you see Green on the field it means NE is in a 4-3 sub package. Green is a perfectly fine DE for run plugging, but not in the 3-4. He was picked up in the hopes that he could replace McGinest but never learned how to cover the pass. As such,NE has an expensive sub as opposed to having a player who can be either on any down.

    Crable is a perfectly fine run stopper. Jason Taylor, a player who BB admires and tried to get come here, is 6'6" 244, that is even leaner than Crable. He played DE and 3-4 OLB throughout his career.

    Crable is a 3-4 OLB. He wasn't drafted as a sub, so the comparison is invalid.

    In the preseason he was getting all the reps there. That includes first down, second, and third down. He got more reps than Woods, or any other backup linebacker becuase he is such a great prospect there. Like a lot NE people I see a lot of potential if he can figure out defenisve adjustments because after Mayo he is the fastest player on the defense front seven, and is even stronger than Mayo.

    They drafted him hoping that he could eventually be our every down OLB. Moreover, they also drafted him knowng that he had experience in college at 4-3 end which added versatility.

    He has about the same playing weight (and that is when he entered last camp) give or take a three or five pounds as Bruschi, (Colvin), Woods, Seau, Mayo, and Rudd. There isn't a magic cutoff line that makes him drop off.

    I don't understand why you think the six pounds difference between him and saaay, Rosy Colvin makes him inelligible for playing OLB here. The fact is that as a run stopper he crushes, and anhiallates Rosy Colvin. He is bigger, stronger, faster, and plays with better leverage, etc. If he can learn the ropes he can do exactly what Colvin did, and be even more disruptive because his length is an assett.

    That said, all of those tools are great, but like Gholston, it doens't matter if you cannot learn how to play the spot. Frankly, I watched both play in preseason, and Crable looked much better and more disruptive in every phase. And yes, I am excited to see him get more reps next season. But no, if NE gets a chance to get a proven playmaker I take in a heartbeat, the same way that I would take a proven corner over Wheatley or Wilhite.

    It is ironic because you are staging the exact same arguement about this OLB that irks you when people make it about corners. All things being equal a couple pounds helps, but it isn't a deal breaker. The exact same way that a few inches and a couple pounds would help a ton of corners, but if they have the skills you don't knock them off. Mike Reiss also noted that Wheatley would find his way in nickel packages, where you usually stick your smallest or least experienced corner. Does that mean that Wheatley can't start? No, it means that is where the vast majority of unproven players start, including Hobbs, Samuel and other players who didn't work out like Richardson and Sanders. Does that mean BB drafted Hobbs and Samuel to be starters and picked up Richardson and Sanders to sit in the bench? No. it means when camp came eventually they were beat out.

    Sanders is four inches taller than Hobbs and Richardson is two inches taller than Hobbs. But neither of them start over him because he has better skills. And despite his height, has proven to be more effective. Crable is the same kind of player. I would want him as our every down 3-4 OLB. I have seen him punch and knock TE's around, and toss FB's to the ground. I have no problem projecting him to play OLB every down, so long as he learns the system. He all the physical tools to do that right now.

    And lastly, if you such a problem with Ravens defenders then write a letter asking Adalius to be cut, because he is great friends with that "dirty criminal" franchise. Moreover, you might as well ditch BB too, because Ed Reed is his favorite player in the league likely bar none, specifically because he never takes a second off on any down. If Ed Reed were a FA BB would throw the bank at him. In a second.

    Nobody tired to paralyze anyone. The whistle hadn't blown and the play was a short yardage situation. I have seen Harrison lay hits on WRs that are five times more dangerous and that after the whistle was blown.

    And even if you dislike Reed I still, for the life of me, don't fathom how that affects any other player on that defense.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

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    Curry is projected too high. Most scouts have him as the top pure LB prospect. I don't think he will trickle down unless something is seriously wrong.
     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnHannahrulz. Show JohnHannahrulz's posts

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    Pioli in KC with #3 has a better shot at Curry. It would take a huge trade up for the Pats to get him. Not happening; Spikes could be available.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriots. Show themightypatriots's posts

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    Well Z I paid attention to Mike Reiss' reports in training camp and I don't remember anything about Crable lining up as 3-4 OLB. Woods was ahead of him at 3-4 OLB in the pre-season games. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how they use him when healthy.

    I don't care if BB loves a criminal or not. I know what I saw. Ed Reed is a dirty disgusting criminal and anyone who would take the field with him doesn't deserve to play football. It doesn't matter if it was short-yardage. Ever hear of forward progress? Breaking someone in half doesn't change the spot of the ball. If Reed did stuff like that before and AD knew about it then he shouldn't play here either.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from davidwa. Show davidwa's posts

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    I think the Pats need a big time playmaker in the secondary for their first pick. It could be a strong safety hopefully resembling R Harrison or a shut down corner like T Law was in his prime. In my opinion that's the team's greatest need.

    Good to see Mayo have such a great start to his career at LB. He may be even better this upcoming season now that he's more familiar with the Pats' defense.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from gtg5017. Show gtg5017's posts

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    Spikes is staying, so take him off ur wish lists.
     

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