DT depth...

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Philskiw1. Show Philskiw1's posts

    Re: DT depth...

    In response to NoMorePensionLooting's comment:

    The tinkering is on going. They will tweak right up to September. I, and others, have been hoping for a return to a more 3-4 defense and will be glad to see it happen.

    And....even though I ate crow, I still believe Mallett is heading somewhere before September and may well bring a DL in exchange. I still remain convinced that ML/BB already have a Mallett deal worked out and are waiting for Cleveland to get something for Weeden.....

    Plus, don't forget lot's of training camp cuts yet to come where BB likes to go shopping...



    Weeden was given the starters job to lose I heard yesterday. Like natesubs I'm still hoping mallet for phil Taylor   Cleveland signing hoyer may kill that idea. 

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from msteven. Show msteven's posts

    Re: DT depth...

    BB is usually ahead of the rest of the league in personnel shifts.  He did it with the TE's a couple of years back.  I think he is doing the same with the DL now.  He sees the league going to a more wide open offense.  He needs quicker linemen to be able to chase down the receivers on the edge.  It is rare to have a 320 Lb lineman that can cover sideline to sideline.  Going with lighter and quicker players will change the defensive scheme.  I think you will see more of an attacking defense from the Pats this year instead of the read and reach of the past.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from mia76. Show mia76's posts

    Re: DT depth...

    I think the only info we can really glean from the cuts is that they really like Kelly and have high expectations from Armstead and probably Forston. Cutting Prior was likely given his history, and the other two were serviceable but nothing special - nice move cutting them early so they can hook on with a new team before mini-camps.

    I suspect there is a speed and athleticism issue involved as well - with more passing, more running QBs, and less 'big back' focus in the running game, playing 2-3 big slow guys on DL is going to happen less often across the league.

    As for Williams  ... red flags saw him drop like a stone in the draft. Maybe he pulls it together, but 32 teams didn't think that likely.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: DT depth...

    In response to leatherhelmet's comment:

    In response to leatherhelmet's comment:

     

    How many 300 pounders are on the field at the same time man????

     



    Plus with his ailment, Love was down to 280.....You would have cut him...........

     



    I didn't say that.  I'm just trying to figure out what BB is thinking.  I've heard a lot of people say he's thinking of converting back to 3-4.  Maybe.  But if so, I don't see it as the old two-gap 3-4 since that's usually required three 300 pounders and he's only got six right now on the roster and only two of them are truly experienced in the NFL.  Looks more like he's trying to get more athletic rather than big, and that suggest to me more of a one-gap approach, whether it's 3-4 or 4-3.

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: DT depth...

    In response to seattlepat70's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    Right now there are just six 300+ pound DLs on the roster:

    • Cherrington at 335
    • Wilfork at 325
    • Kelly at 325
    • Grissom at 316
    • Forston at 305
    • Armstead at 298 (well, just a 32 oz rib eye away from 300 lbs)

    Next heaviest guy is Vellano at 285, then Francis at 270. There are seven guys in the 250s and 260s.

    Not sure exactly what to make of this, but BB seems to be getting away from Warren-Wilfork-Seymour size and favouring smaller, quicker DLs.  May still be considering a 3-4, but maybe not the old two gap 3-4 he was famous for.

     

     

     



    on 34 he likes his DEs 300+. So you need three startes plus depth.

     

    On 43, they only need two 300+ starters plus depth.

    So I think they will stay 43.



    I think that or they go to more of a one-gap 3-4, which I believe is more like SF's 3-4. 

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: DT depth...

    In response to msteven's comment:

    BB is usually ahead of the rest of the league in personnel shifts.  He did it with the TE's a couple of years back.  I think he is doing the same with the DL now.  He sees the league going to a more wide open offense.  He needs quicker linemen to be able to chase down the receivers on the edge.  It is rare to have a 320 Lb lineman that can cover sideline to sideline.  Going with lighter and quicker players will change the defensive scheme.  I think you will see more of an attacking defense from the Pats this year instead of the read and reach of the past.



    This is more what I see too.  I don't see two-gap 3-4 which tends to be less of an attacking style. 

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: DT depth...

    In response to msteven's comment:

    BB is usually ahead of the rest of the league in personnel shifts.  He did it with the TE's a couple of years back.  I think he is doing the same with the DL now.  He sees the league going to a more wide open offense.  He needs quicker linemen to be able to chase down the receivers on the edge.  It is rare to have a 320 Lb lineman that can cover sideline to sideline.  Going with lighter and quicker players will change the defensive scheme.  I think you will see more of an attacking defense from the Pats this year instead of the read and reach of the past.



    Agree with this, has to be part of the reason we see so much of his 2/5/4 and 2/4/5 four man front nickel as our base defense nowadays.  If three wide receiver sets are more prevalent than making a nickel package your "base" defense makes sense.  We just haven't been able to find a high motor stump like Wilfork who can play on his own in the middle paired next to Vince who doesn't get blown off the ball, Love wasn't that guy.

    Even if we have the personnel to play more 3/4 (we never stopped) you should still expect to see a lot of nickel packages that call for blitzing.  They could go the route of San Fran which like Prolate says run the 3/4 and blitz on almost every down or go the route of Baltimore which still hold the D tackles back as two gap run stoppers and have all 4 of their linebackers pass rush, occasionally keeping their best cover/open field tackling LB (Mayo) back or using a 3/3/5 with a safety doubling (A.Wilson) as a linebacker.

    None of this is different or revolutionary to what BB has done in the past, it's just happening with more frequency now as the league evolves.

     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from sportsbozo1. Show sportsbozo1's posts

    Re: DT depth...

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    2-5-4 seems likely now. Adrian Wilson, the big nickel, Arrington in the regular nickel.

     

    Here's my nickels worth: They are going to put Kelly on one end and Fork on the other with Cherrington or Porkchop in the middle. With Jones and Collins playing DE/OLB's. The flexibility comes from having the interchangeable defenses of 3-4 and 4-3 at all times! When resting the two hybrids they will use your variations of 2-5-4. I don't know if any of us are right but at least our thoughts are worth a nickel....LMAO


     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: DT depth...

    In response to sportsbozo1's comment:

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    2-5-4 seems likely now. Adrian Wilson, the big nickel, Arrington in the regular nickel.

     

     

    Here's my nickels worth: They are going to put Kelly on one end and Fork on the other with Cherrington or Porkchop in the middle. With Jones and Collins playing DE/OLB's. The flexibility comes from having the interchangeable defenses of 3-4 and 4-3 at all times! When resting the two hybrids they will use your variations of 2-5-4. I don't know if any of us are right but at least our thoughts are worth a nickel....LMAO

     



    A big nickel, actually, once you adjust for sequester.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from agill1970. Show agill1970's posts

    Re: DT depth...

    In response to mia76's comment:

    I think the only info we can really glean from the cuts is that they really like Kelly and have high expectations from Armstead and probably Forston. Cutting Prior was likely given his history, and the other two were serviceable but nothing special - nice move cutting them early so they can hook on with a new team before mini-camps.

    I suspect there is a speed and athleticism issue involved as well - with more passing, more running QBs, and less 'big back' focus in the running game, playing 2-3 big slow guys on DL is going to happen less often across the league.

    As for Williams  ... red flags saw him drop like a stone in the draft. Maybe he pulls it together, but 32 teams didn't think that likely.




    I think this posts pretty much nails it.  More spread offenses, more scrambling QB's, more passes.  The ground and pound is pretty rare these days, and if you want to compete, you need a fast swarming defense that can get after the ball and cover.  Vince does a fantastic job of clogging up the middle forcing plays to the outside or allowing LB's to come up and make the play.  It's best to surround him with fast atheletic guys.  Of course next year we really need to focus on getting a replacement for him because I can't imagine he has a whole lot of tread left after playing at his high level and amount the last few years. 

     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from seattlepat70. Show seattlepat70's posts

    Re: DT depth...

    In response to sportsbozo1's comment:

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    2-5-4 seems likely now. Adrian Wilson, the big nickel, Arrington in the regular nickel.

     

     

    Here's my nickels worth: They are going to put Kelly on one end and Fork on the other with Cherrington or Porkchop in the middle. With Jones and Collins playing DE/OLB's. The flexibility comes from having the interchangeable defenses of 3-4 and 4-3 at all times! When resting the two hybrids they will use your variations of 2-5-4. I don't know if any of us are right but at least our thoughts are worth a nickel....LMAO


     



    Ahhh. I was thinking the same thing. Push VW to either side like BAL uses Ngata. I do not think we will see it at the beginning of the reg season. However, I would not be surprised if we see a lot of that by game 13.

     
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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: DT depth...

    In response to sportsbozo1's comment:

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    2-5-4 seems likely now. Adrian Wilson, the big nickel, Arrington in the regular nickel.

     

     

    Here's my nickels worth: They are going to put Kelly on one end and Fork on the other with Cherrington or Porkchop in the middle. With Jones and Collins playing DE/OLB's. The flexibility comes from having the interchangeable defenses of 3-4 and 4-3 at all times! When resting the two hybrids they will use your variations of 2-5-4. I don't know if any of us are right but at least our thoughts are worth a nickel....LMAO


     



    Well that makes some sense because Wilfork can play end and Kelly too, but to ask undrafted free agents to come in and play one the most challenging spots along the defensive line seems like a stretch to me. I seriously don't think any of this is going as planned for the Patriots right now...I imagine Deaderick had himself one hell of an unproductive off season (before being cut) and Love having diabetes is just bad all around. I think we'll see a couple of additional signings before training camp ends for this team.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Philskiw1. Show Philskiw1's posts

    Re: DT depth...

    In response to sportsbozo1's comment:

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    2-5-4 seems likely now. Adrian Wilson, the big nickel, Arrington in the regular nickel.

     

     

    Here's my nickels worth: They are going to put Kelly on one end and Fork on the other with Cherrington or Porkchop in the middle. With Jones and Collins playing DE/OLB's. The flexibility comes from having the interchangeable defenses of 3-4 and 4-3 at all times! When resting the two hybrids they will use your variations of 2-5-4. I don't know if any of us are right but at least our thoughts are worth a nickel....LMAO


     



    I think wilfork plays as good at end as he does in the middle. I hope we can push him to end on a regular basis.  Line him up on the biggest mis match.  

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: DT depth...

    Great article by Pat Kirwan on defensive linemen (breaks them down by posiiton: 4-3 RDE, 4-3 LDE, 4-3, 3-tech, 4-3 nose, 3-4 DE, and 3-4 nose).  

    Wozzy, I thought of you when I read this . . . you'll like it. 

    http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/22227482/versatile-watt-powerful-ngata-wilfork-best-of-defensive-linemen

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from maine12. Show maine12's posts

    Re: DT depth...

    If the Pats move to a 3-4, Chandler Jones will be a DE. Hightower and Ninc will play outside with Spkies and Mayo as ILB. Boom easy as that. Jones gives you speed as a DE and Hightower as a monster OLB. It was clear that Jones was able to hold his ground vs any lineman.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from WazzuWheatfarmer. Show WazzuWheatfarmer's posts

    Re: DT depth...

    You all have mentioned some great thoughts about possible defensive allignments and schemes that NE may employ next season, and my guess is that most of you are correct.  I think we will see all kinds of allignments from our defense next season, making them harder for opposing offenses to diagnose.  One thing is for sure, the flexibility that versatile guys like Chandler, Hightower, Collins, Wilson Twins, etc. have brought to our defense is looking like it will be an outstanding asset.  I'm really looking forward to seeing our defense next season.

     
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  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from mia76. Show mia76's posts

    Re: DT depth...

    In a 3-4 I think you could see Jones, Wilfork, and Armstead as the DL with Kelly trading in for any one of them. If it is Kelly and Wilfork out there then Wilfork moves to an end. I think that could end up being a very strong rotation and if they go 4-3 then those 4 might end up being the primary starters.

    I actually think the front 7 can be incredibly flexible with Collins and Nink able to be hybrid de/olbs and maybe hightower used a little in that role.

    And he seems to be left out of most discussions, but I do wonder about Vega and whether that was just a flier or if they actually saw something there.

    And just a thought - not sure there are many good 3-4 DE that come in over 300 lbs. As I recall they are mostly in the 280-295 playing weight range.

     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: DT depth...

    Jones is a bit light for a typical 3-4 DE, especially in a two-gap 3-4, but a number of teams do use 280-290 lb DEs in a 3-4.  Armstead strikes me as the better candidate for a 3-4 DE, but he also strikes me as a LDE (opposite Jones in a 4-3) or maybe a 4-3 DT.  I tend to see a 4-3 with Kelly and Wilfork in the middle and Armstead and Jones at LDE and RDE respectively. In that scheme, Mayo, Hightower, and maybe Collins could become the LBs, with Spikes playing a bigger role against run-focused teams.  

     

     
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