Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from fancy-shamanski. Show fancy-shamanski's posts

    Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?

    One of the big points in the new cba is that the owners want to take an extra billion for themselves.  If there are 32 team then wouldn't this roughly equate to an extra $32 mill ayear?  Am I wrong in thinking this??

    I think the owners are making insane amounts of profits each year, especially if they are asking for an extra $32 mill.
    The key point is the owners won't open the books so its should be obvious to everyone that they don't want people to know they are making $75 million a year or there would be major uproar.  A few teams claim they are barely profiting, but they won't open their books.
    I think the owners are being absolutely ridiculous and very greedy. If they were making $10 mill a year they would be happy to showm everyone that's all they make.  Furthermore the owner is always the one who profits the most so if some players make $15-20 mill then there is no way an owner would have a player making more than him.  No way.  The owners must be making $50-100 mill a year.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Anarchy99. Show Anarchy99's posts

    Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?

    Last year, the Packers had $9.8 million in profit and net income of $5.2 million with $4 million the season before.  Green Bay is publicly owned and operated, so they have to open their books. 

    http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/packers/2010-07-15-finances_N.htm

    Since we don't have access to the numbers of other teams, we don't know how that stacks up vs. the rest of the league.  But I suspect that many of the teams are not raking in millions and millions of dollars.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from MordecaiBloodmoon. Show MordecaiBloodmoon's posts

    Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?

    You are looking at this all wrong fancy.  It isnt about how much they make.  It is about how much they make off of the investment.  If they bought a team for 1 billion, they deserve a reasonable profit off of 1 billion.  If it was me, I would expect to make about 100 mill a year off of that...aka a 10% return.  That to me would be after putting some profits aside to eventually build another new stadium in x years.  So yes 10,20, 30 million is a ton to most of us, but a horrible return on their investment.  So they deserve to make more.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from GS1897. Show GS1897's posts

    Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?

    In Response to Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?:
    [QUOTE]One of the big points in the new cba is that the owners want to take an extra billion for themselves.  If there are 32 team then wouldn't this roughly equate to an extra $32 mill ayear?  Am I wrong in thinking this?? I think the owners are making insane amounts of profits each year, especially if they are asking for an extra $32 mill. The key point is the owners won't open the books so its should be obvious to everyone that they don't want people to know they are making $75 million a year or there would be major uproar.  A few teams claim they are barely profiting, but they won't open their books. I think the owners are being absolutely ridiculous and very greedy. If they were making $10 mill a year they would be happy to showm everyone that's all they make.  Furthermore the owner is always the one who profits the most so if some players make $15-20 mill then there is no way an owner would have a player making more than him.  No way.  The owners must be making $50-100 mill a year.
    Posted by fancy-shamanski[/QUOTE]

    Personally, I would expect them to make that much. If players are making 5-10 million a year, the owner should make 50-100, since they are the ones taking the huge financial risk.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Philskiw1. Show Philskiw1's posts

    Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?

    With the price of oil going up that 32 M will probably be the increase of their stadium electric and gas.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?

    So tell me fancy...  you invest $100,000..  you'd be satisfied to earn $1000 on that $100,000?  It is about perspective and as noted by GS and Mordecai..   $32M on, let's say on $1B invested, works out to 3.2%.  Would that make you happy?
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from jerh5. Show jerh5's posts

    Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?

       How long do you think it will be before there is a player making 35 million dollars a year? I believe its in the near future. If I am an employer, I'll be damned if one of my employees are gonna make more than me.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?

    $1000 dollars from a $100,000 investment is great. How many people here actually invest? If you think that is bad, then you are talking about another kind of investment altogether with much, much higher risk than the NFL. 

    Second, none of these owners invested $1billion dollars. Some have franchises that are valuated at $1Billion, but most spent between $100-200 million to purchase them. A HUGE part of their "profit" is the amount to which their team appreciates each season, oftentimes as much as $100million per. 

    Per the Pew center, the NFL is simply one fo the most lucrative businesses period. A typical "safe" investment like a Money market will yield .5% a year with the highest earning and least risky having something like 1%.

    Buffalo, who was terrible last season, made $40 million dollars in profit and averaged something like $30 million a season over the decade. Their franchise is valuated at something like $900 million. The actual investment by the owner in the team that season was something like $140 million. Over the ten year period their team valuated from 365 million to 909 million. That is almost 60 million a year in value they average as well. Their average valuation plus profit over the decade would $85 million. That is about 10% of total team value each time spit between the team investment and cash in their pocket. As far as outgoing expenses per season which would stand around 125 million, that is something like a 90% return on their investment each season over that time span. That would be the money that actually "risked" (lol) on the team that season. Obviously, their sterling recor shows how the Bills billionaire ownership are classic American enterpenurial moguls, as they were the best team right? Surely, every business in the USA is set this way, where you FAIL and create a terrible product and still turn out those kind of numbers? 

    Ralph Wilson paid $25,000 for the Bills in 1959.

    That is an incredible "return" on the investment for a team that is terrible, and a perfect illustration of how the NFL is in reality a slam dunk with a more stable payout and much, much higher yield payout than even the safest forms of investment you can make. 

    I don't understand why so many average folks are crying in their beers fro these robber barons. Corporate welfare, what the NFL is currently milking, is a crime. In any other business most of these teams would be sold and gutted by now because of their incompetent ownership, but the OWNERS' UNION collectively bargained their way out of any risk at all.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Philskiw1. Show Philskiw1's posts

    Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?

    $1000 dollars from a $100,000 investment is great

    You get more money in a savings account at a bank. That investment bites.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?

    The owners believe they agreed to a bad deal last time.  That's their fault.  I give them credit for not allowing another CBA to come and go without attempting to get the numbers back to a level that is more satisfactory to them. 

    I am sure that these owners took it on the chin a bit over the last couple of years.  I'd imagine that the downturn of the economy was a wake up call to them that they can't always rely on the market to be on their side. 

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from MordecaiBloodmoon. Show MordecaiBloodmoon's posts

    Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?

    In regards to investing, I do invest.  Just did my taxes today.  My investments (stocks) increased over 22% last year.  So yes I see the owners making 100 mil as more than fair. 
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Philskiw1. Show Philskiw1's posts

    Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?

    22% is good. My annual oil futures haven't let me down the last few years.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from MordecaiBloodmoon. Show MordecaiBloodmoon's posts

    Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?

    I tend to pick stocks with solid infrastructures, reasonable dividend payouts and products I am familiar with or concepts I am familiar with.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?

    The return on an owner's investment in a team is a combination of income generated by the business and the appreciation in the value of the business.  It's just like a stock, where the return is a combination of stock price growth plus dividend income.  Most of the owners have invested a few hundred million in their teams and have seen the value of those teams grow a few hundred percent over time.  When Bob Kraft bought the Pats seventeen years ago, they were worth $175 million (that's what he paid).  They are now estimated to be worth $1.4 billion.  Now Kraft probably put more of his own money into the team over time than $175 million (we don't know how much), but I doubt his total investment (out of his own pocket) was more than $400 or $500 million (lots of the growth is debt financed, I'm sure).  On top of that, the team generates a steady stream of income.  Forbes estimated $66 million in operating profits last year.  We don't know all the details of Kraft's investment, but if he sold the Pats today, he'd probably end up with something close to a billion dollars (after the team's outstanding loans were accounted for).  Plus he's making tens of millions every year in profits.  (The team may also pay him a salary, which would be deducted before profits--that I don't know).  Without knowing all the details it's hard to say exactly what Kraft is making, but I'd guess his average annual profits are roughly 10% of the amount invested and the appreciation on that investment is roughly 6% per year. That's not a bad investment. 

    Now Kraft is one of the more successful owners--many are not doing as well as he is.  But still, with a few exceptions, I doubt these teams are bad investments. 


     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from unclealfie. Show unclealfie's posts

    Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?

    In Response to Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year? : Personally, I would expect them to make that much. If players are making 5-10 million a year, the owner should make 50-100, since they are the ones taking the huge financial risk.
    Posted by GS1897[/QUOTE]

    Risk?

    Exactly where is the risk in owning an NFL franchise? Krafty paid $25 million for the team in 1988. Based on the 2010 value of NFL teams, http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/30/football-valuations-10_NFL-Team-Valuations_Rank.html) . The pats value is up around $1.4 billion.

    Yes, that includes the stadium but what's the value of the stadium with no team? In any case, the return on the original $25 mil isn't too bad. Owning an NFL team is like having a license to print money.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?

    In Response to Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?:
    [QUOTE]The return on an owner's investment in a team is a combination of income generated by the business and the appreciation in the value of the business.  It's just like a stock, where the return is a combination of stock price growth plus dividend income.  Most of the owners have invested a few hundred million in their teams and have seen the value of those teams grow a few hundred percent over time.  When Bob Kraft bought the Pats seventeen years ago, they were worth $175 million (that's what he paid).  They are now estimated to be worth $1.4 billion.  Now Kraft probably put more of his own money into the team over time than $175 million (we don't know how much), but I doubt his total investment (out of his own pocket) was more than $400 or $500 million (lots of the growth is debt financed, I'm sure).  On top of that, the team generates a steady stream of income.  Forbes estimated $66 million in operating profits last year.  We don't know all the details of Kraft's investment, but if he sold the Pats today, he'd probably end up with something close to a billion dollars (after the team's outstanding loans were accounted for).  Plus he's making tens of millions every year in profits.  (The team may also pay him a salary, which would be deducted before profits--that I don't know).  Without knowing all the details it's hard to say exactly what Kraft is making, but I'd guess his average annual profits are roughly 10% of the amount invested and the appreciation on that investment is roughly 6% per year. That's not a bad investment.  Now Kraft is one of the more successful owners--many are not doing as well as he is.  But still, with a few exceptions, I doubt these teams are bad investments. 
    Posted by prolate0spheroid[/QUOTE]

    Very good assessment. The other thing to note is the investment made back into the surrounding product (ie patriot place and new stadiums). Investments back into the surrounding product also increases revenue and product sales for player merchandise (which the players get a percentage). Now to the top teams in the league these are easy investments and eventually will pay themselves back but what about the teams like the Jags, Sea, Ari, or Car who don't have the major fan base and might be operating close to a loss. Without knowing the books we could never know but 32mil extra per team seems reasonable since 32 mil reinvested over a 10 year period could mean new stadiums, facilities, attractions such as Pats place which in the long run will increase profits further then 32 mil a year and might benefit the players long term in but health research, facilities, and revenues from merchandise and overall profit
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from unclealfie. Show unclealfie's posts

    Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?

    In Response to Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?:
    [QUOTE]$1000 dollars from a $100,000 investment is great You get more money in a savings account at a bank. That investment bites.
    Posted by Philskiw1[/QUOTE]

    You get more than 10% return on a savings account? The last ad I noticed was offering  1 1/2%. Where's that bank that pays more than 10%?
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Paul_K. Show Paul_K's posts

    Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?

    I want an extra $32 mill a year too.

    One difference between the owners and myself is that the owners are risking their own capital.  However, major league sports is rife with owners who risked nothing and put up the public's money, and then they personally got rich.  Heads I win tails you lose.  All it takes is political connections, and it helps if you're too big to fail. 

    I think the owners got caught up in an ideology, a belief that sheer force of will combined with a Republican Congress can bust unions.  The owners got stupid as they marched forward to the planned lockout. Now a judge is locking up $4b of their war chest and so the poorest owners have no cash reserves to pay their debts during a long strike.  With the poorest owners facing bankruptcy, losing control of the franchise and maybe even looking at a real McJob (not really, they can sell one of their houses and live on that, or they have cash in the Cayman Islands), suddenly the lockout doesn't seem like the best idea.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?

    Don't most sports team owners buy teams more as a hobby anyway?  I mean most of these guys are billionaires from their day job.  They buy teams kind of like other billionaires buy Ferraris.  It's more a hobby farm than Archer Daniels Midland.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from fancy-shamanski. Show fancy-shamanski's posts

    Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?

    First of all no woners are putting up 1 billion of their own money. Duhhh???  Name one. When they put up their own money it isn't even remotely close to a billion that they put up???  Where do get this figure that owners put up a billion of their own money?????

    The team may be worth 1 billion, but they never put up 1 billion?????????????
    Second owning an nfl team is a pretty sound investment as the nfl is a booming business and owners are making massive profits.
    I don't think owners should be making $100 mill a year, and certainly if they are they shouldn't cause a work stoppage to make more than that.
    That is incredible greed.
    You want the NFL to stop so some already billionaire owner can make even more than $100 mill a year???  That doesn't make sense.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from fancy-shamanski. Show fancy-shamanski's posts

    Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?

    In Response to Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?:
    [QUOTE]$1000 dollars from a $100,000 investment is great. How many people here actually invest? If you think that is bad, then you are talking about another kind of investment altogether with much, much higher risk than the NFL.  Second, none of these owners invested $1billion dollars. Some have franchises that are valuated at $1Billion, but most spent between $100-200 million to purchase them. A HUGE part of their "profit" is the amount to which their team appreciates each season, oftentimes as much as $100million per.  Per the Pew center, the NFL is simply one fo the most lucrative businesses period. A typical "safe" investment like a Money market will yield .5% a year with the highest earning and least risky having something like 1%. Buffalo, who was terrible last season, made $40 million dollars in profit and averaged something like $30 million a season over the decade. Their franchise is valuated at something like $900 million. The actual investment by the owner in the team that season was something like $140 million. Over the ten year period their team valuated from 365 million to 909 million. That is almost 60 million a year in value they average as well. Their average valuation plus profit over the decade would $85 million. That is about 10% of total team value each time spit between the team investment and cash in their pocket. As far as outgoing expenses per season which would stand around 125 million, that is something like a 90% return on their investment each season over that time span. That would be the money that actually "risked" (lol) on the team that season. Obviously, their sterling recor shows how the Bills billionaire ownership are classic American enterpenurial moguls, as they were the best team right? Surely, every business in the USA is set this way, where you FAIL and create a terrible product and still turn out those kind of numbers?  Ralph Wilson paid $25,000 for the Bills in 1959. That is an incredible "return" on the investment for a team that is terrible, and a perfect illustration of how the NFL is in reality a slam dunk with a more stable payout and much, much higher yield payout than even the safest forms of investment you can make.  I don't understand why so many average folks are crying in their beers fro these robber barons. Corporate welfare, what the NFL is currently milking, is a crime. In any other business most of these teams would be sold and gutted by now because of their incompetent ownership, but the OWNERS' UNION collectively bargained their way out of any risk at all.
    Posted by zbellino[/QUOTE]


    Exactly it seems like you and I are the only ones smart enough to get this???  What's wrong with these other people??  Yeah owner put up a billion of their own money to buy a team???????  Nuts, glad somebody gets it
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from carawaydj. Show carawaydj's posts

    Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?

    Well, I learned some things I didn't know.  I didn't know I could pay my bills using appreciation.  Oh wait, I can't.  Well, I guess I could take out equity loans every time my investment appreciates.  I'm sure that's never got anyone into trouble Sealed

    And then you have to reconsider what an investment "really" is, and not just from a technical standpoint.  If I buy a team for $400 mil and plan to keep it in my family for as long as I can foresee, what value or "return on investment" does the appreciation "really" provide me?  It doesn't really mean much unless and until I sell the team.  So unless my investment plan calls for me to sell the team I'm unlikely to personally consider appreciation in my return on investment.  But let's say I did...will the players come forth and recommend pay cuts if/when the teams start to depreciate?

    I think each owner should make substantially more than any player.  It should be in the orders of magnitude.  If a player can make over $10 mil a year, the owner should make $100 mil.  Of course that wouldn't happen though.  But really, each owner has more invested into the NFL than any player that has ever taken the field.  The players played this game for free all of their lives up to the NFL.  All of them did it for fun.  None of them knew all along they would be in the NFL.  They are gifted athletes and little more.  They participate in the NFL for a relatively short period and move on.  The owners are there for the long haul.  In the time that most owners will run a franchise there will be generations of players who come and go.  The players are paid well.  We know the owners will not get everything they wanted.  The owners knew their starting position would not be realized.  The players will still be paid extremely well even if they do take pay cuts.  The owners make good money too...as they should.  Anyone that disagrees can try to be as successful as these guys were before they purchased a team and try to do the same.  The personal and business skills required to achieve that level of success in life probably can't be understood from most of the people thinking they make too much.  Probably fair to say that not a single one of us on this board have all of those skills.  Let them reap their rewards.  It's not like their out there laying off pregnant women.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from carawaydj. Show carawaydj's posts

    Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?

    In Response to Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?:
    [QUOTE]$1000 dollars from a $100,000 investment is great. How many people here actually invest? If you think that is bad, then you are talking about another kind of investment altogether with much, much higher risk than the NFL.  Second, none of these owners invested $1billion dollars. Some have franchises that are valuated at $1Billion, but most spent between $100-200 million to purchase them. A HUGE part of their "profit" is the amount to which their team appreciates each season, oftentimes as much as $100million per.  Per the Pew center, the NFL is simply one fo the most lucrative businesses period. A typical "safe" investment like a Money market will yield .5% a year with the highest earning and least risky having something like 1%. Buffalo, who was terrible last season, made $40 million dollars in profit and averaged something like $30 million a season over the decade. Their franchise is valuated at something like $900 million. The actual investment by the owner in the team that season was something like $140 million. Over the ten year period their team valuated from 365 million to 909 million. That is almost 60 million a year in value they average as well. Their average valuation plus profit over the decade would $85 million. That is about 10% of total team value each time spit between the team investment and cash in their pocket. As far as outgoing expenses per season which would stand around 125 million, that is something like a 90% return on their investment each season over that time span. That would be the money that actually "risked" (lol) on the team that season. Obviously, their sterling recor shows how the Bills billionaire ownership are classic American enterpenurial moguls, as they were the best team right? Surely, every business in the USA is set this way, where you FAIL and create a terrible product and still turn out those kind of numbers?  Ralph Wilson paid $25,000 for the Bills in 1959. That is an incredible "return" on the investment for a team that is terrible, and a perfect illustration of how the NFL is in reality a slam dunk with a more stable payout and much, much higher yield payout than even the safest forms of investment you can make.  I don't understand why so many average folks are crying in their beers fro these robber barons. Corporate welfare, what the NFL is currently milking, is a crime. In any other business most of these teams would be sold and gutted by now because of their incompetent ownership, but the OWNERS' UNION collectively bargained their way out of any risk at all.
    Posted by zbellino[/QUOTE]

    What is your source that the Bills made a $40 mil profit last year?  They started playing some of their home games in Canada because Buffalo wasn't getting it done.  Comparing a sports league to traditional business is nuts.  There are going to be bad teams.  It would be hard for all 32 teams to finish 16-0.  Buffalo was once a very good team, and for all we know will once again be a powerhouse in 6 years.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?

    In Response to Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?:
    [QUOTE]Well, I learned some things I didn't know.  I didn't know I could pay my bills using appreciation. [/QUOTE]

    So I take it you avoid growth stocks too?

    [QUOTE]It doesn't really mean much unless and until I sell the team.  So unless my investment plan calls for me to sell the team I'm unlikely to personally consider appreciation in my return on investment.  [/QUOTE]

    Most investors do consider appreciation.  

    [QUOTE]I think each owner should make substantially more than any player.  It should be in the orders of magnitude.  If a player can make over $10 mil a year, the owner should make $100 mil. [/QUOTE]

    Why? It's not like there's some moral reason why anybody should make any particular amount. In reality, wages are set by markets and therefore are based on supply and demand. Player salaries are high mostly because good players are in high demand and short supply. 


    [QUOTE] But really, each owner has more invested into the NFL than any player that has ever taken the field.  [/QUOTE]

    More money.  But most of the owners buy these teams as a kind of hobby.  It's a vanity purchase. Like buying a Ferrari. 

    [QUOTE] They are gifted athletes and little more. [/QUOTE]

    That's actually a lot.  Just as difficult and rare as being a gifted business man. 

    [QUOTE] Anyone that disagrees can try to be as successful as these guys were before they purchased a team and try to do the same.  The personal and business skills required to achieve that level of success in life probably can't be understood from most of the people thinking they make too much.  Probably fair to say that not a single one of us on this board have all of those skills. 
    Posted by carawaydj[/QUOTE]

    Oh geez.  Let's stop putting these team owners on pedestals.  They may be good at making money, but that doesn't make them better than everyone else. In some cases, it's just because they're ruthless SOBs. Bob Kraft is a very good business man--but you do know how he made his fortune don't you?  He married it (Myra's father had the cash).  Other team owners inherited their teams. Richardson (who's been insulting the players) made his money playing football, then bought Hardees franchises.  I happen to know another guy who got very wealthy the exact same way.  Okay guy to go fishing with, but he's no genius, he's an alcoholic, and his kids are all screwed up.  Yeah, he's rich, but calling him a success in life is a bit of a stretch. 

    There are a lot of ways people succeed.  Making money is just one way.  Playing football at a high level is another.  Tom Brady is every bit as successful as Bob Kraft. Different paths in life. But both are equally accomplished. 

    Overall, carawaydj, it strikes me you're a little too much in awe of business people and a little too disparaging of accomplished athletes.  There's no moral hierarchy here. People are good at different things and make different choices about how to live their lives.  Wages, however, are set by markets (influenced by negotiating power)--and markets are completely amoral. They giveth and they taketh away without concern for moral character or anything else other than supply and demand. 


     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from SoLongHarryTruman. Show SoLongHarryTruman's posts

    Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?

    In Response to Re: Each Owner Wants an Extra $32 mill a year?:
    [QUOTE]Well, I learned some things I didn't know.  I didn't know I could pay my bills using appreciation.  Oh wait, I can't.  Well, I guess I could take out equity loans every time my investment appreciates. 
    Posted by carawaydj[/QUOTE]

    You know, I bet you're right. The owners just let all that equity just sit there so they have a nest egg when they retire. It would be foolish to leverage 100, 200, 300 or more million dollars of equity. Business people just don't do that.

     
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