EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from oklahomapatriot. Show oklahomapatriot's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to RallyC's comment:

    In response to kansaspatriot's comment:

     


    Edelman. Draft Talib's replacement

     




     

    Then what? Pray that he becomes an all pro CB like Talib? not likely. Rule of thumb, you keep the CB if both are the best at their positions. CB is the most physically challenging position on the field. OK. Thats your answer. 




    that's your answer. Edelman has won us more games than Talib. if Talib had a high take away ratio I would yeah, keep him.

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from joepatsfan111111. Show joepatsfan111111's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to kansaspatriot's comment:




    that's your answer. Edelman has won us more games than Talib. if Talib had a high take away ratio I would yeah, keep him.

     



    ..? picks dont mean much. Talib has great ball skills. i havent heard Talib's name the last three weeks meaning he is blanketing the guy he has covered, the ball doesnt go his way cause he's lock down. Guys like Talib are rare. Julian Edelman is talented but also a product of the system and Tom Brady... like I said slot WRs grow on trees and are a dime a dozen.

 
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from ghostofjri37. Show ghostofjri37's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to joepatsfan111111's comment:

    In response to kansaspatriot's comment:




    that's your answer. Edelman has won us more games than Talib. if Talib had a high take away ratio I would yeah, keep him.

     



    ..? picks dont mean much. Talib has great ball skills. i havent heard Talib's name the last three weeks meaning he is blanketing the guy he has covered, the ball doesnt go his way cause he's lock down. Guys like Talib are rare. Julian Edelman is talented but also a product of the system and Tom Brady... like I said slot WRs grow on trees and are a dime a dozen.



    Talib is a great corner most likely one of the top 5 when healthy but a couple of weeks ago i could have sworn he was chasing Josh gordon for about 80 yards.

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  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to joepatsfan111111's comment:


    why would we cut Mayo..? he's worth every penny



    Money, that's the only reason. Restructure is more likely. His cap number is more than $7 mil, if they can bring that down (and they can this year), they will. One way or the other. That's how NFL contracts work these days.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from RallyC. Show RallyC's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to kansaspatriot's comment:

    In response to RallyC's comment:

    In response to kansaspatriot's comment:

     


    Edelman. Draft Talib's replacement

     




     

    Then what? Pray that he becomes an all pro CB like Talib? not likely. Rule of thumb, you keep the CB if both are the best at their positions. CB is the most physically challenging position on the field. OK. Thats your answer. 




    that's your answer. Edelman has won us more games than Talib. if Talib had a high take away ratio I would yeah, keep him.

     




    i love JE. You keep ANY good CB over any other good player on the field excluding your starting  QB and maybe RB. 

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from joepatsfan111111. Show joepatsfan111111's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to ghostofjri37's comment:



    Talib is a great corner most likely one of the top 5 when healthy but a couple of weeks ago i could have sworn he was chasing Josh gordon for about 80 yards.



    yes that is true. that Cleveland game was easily his worst as a Patriot. Gordon killed him. but he is geting healthy and looking better. He shutdown Hartline/Clay v. Miami. and i think he gave up maybe one catch vs. Baltimore.

    He has changed our defense for the better. even not fully 100% talib is an above average corner.

    Edelman is a product of TB & the system. I love him and his heart but plug in almost anyone with decent talent and rookie around him and he'll have 100 catches too.

    Talib is more needed to this team

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  • You have chosen to ignore posts from ghostofjri37. Show ghostofjri37's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to joepatsfan111111's comment:

    In response to ghostofjri37's comment:



    Talib is a great corner most likely one of the top 5 when healthy but a couple of weeks ago i could have sworn he was chasing Josh gordon for about 80 yards.



    yes that is true. that Cleveland game was easily his worst as a Patriot. Gordon killed him. but he is geting healthy and looking better. He shutdown Hartline/Clay v. Miami. and i think he gave up maybe one catch vs. Baltimore.

    He has changed our defense for the better. even not fully 100% talib is an above average corner.

    Edelman is a product of TB & the system. I love him and his heart but plug in almost anyone with decent talent and rookie around him and he'll have 100 catches too.

    Talib is more needed to this team



    I don't disagree  as I said a top 5 corner if healthybut it comes down to that hip. if it is something he is going to have to deal with going forward they will not invest the cash in him.

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  • You have chosen to ignore posts from joepatsfan111111. Show joepatsfan111111's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    In response to joepatsfan111111's comment:


    why would we cut Mayo..? he's worth every penny



    Money, that's the only reason. Restructure is more likely. His cap number is more than $7 mil, if they can bring that down (and they can this year), they will. One way or the other. That's how NFL contracts work these days.



    7 million for a guy who pretty much holds the D together and is the QB seems alright to me whats Willis make?..

    but yes restructuring the deal would be team friendly and help us alot. the thought of cutting mayo just is crazy to me

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to RallyC's comment:

     

     

    i love JE. You keep ANY good CB over any other good player on the field excluding your starting  QB and maybe RB. 



    Substitute LT for "maybe RB" and I'd agree, generally speaking. RBs are a dime a dozen.  I wouldn't keep Ridley over Edelman, for example, if that was my choice.  I'd keep Solder over Talib all day. Or Matt Light over Ty Law.

     

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from oklahomapatriot. Show oklahomapatriot's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to ghostofjri37's comment:

    In response to joepatsfan111111's comment:

    In response to kansaspatriot's comment:




    that's your answer. Edelman has won us more games than Talib. if Talib had a high take away ratio I would yeah, keep him.

     



    ..? picks dont mean much. Talib has great ball skills. i havent heard Talib's name the last three weeks meaning he is blanketing the guy he has covered, the ball doesnt go his way cause he's lock down. Guys like Talib are rare. Julian Edelman is talented but also a product of the system and Tom Brady... like I said slot WRs grow on trees and are a dime a dozen.



    Talib is a great corner most likely one of the top 5 when healthy but a couple of weeks ago i could have sworn he was chasing Josh gordon for about 80 yards.




     He looked slow against Gordon. was Talib still nursing an injury?

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  • You have chosen to ignore posts from ghostofjri37. Show ghostofjri37's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to kansaspatriot's comment:

    In response to ghostofjri37's comment:

    In response to joepatsfan111111's comment:

    In response to kansaspatriot's comment:




    that's your answer. Edelman has won us more games than Talib. if Talib had a high take away ratio I would yeah, keep him.

     



    ..? picks dont mean much. Talib has great ball skills. i havent heard Talib's name the last three weeks meaning he is blanketing the guy he has covered, the ball doesnt go his way cause he's lock down. Guys like Talib are rare. Julian Edelman is talented but also a product of the system and Tom Brady... like I said slot WRs grow on trees and are a dime a dozen.



    Talib is a great corner most likely one of the top 5 when healthy but a couple of weeks ago i could have sworn he was chasing Josh gordon for about 80 yards.




     He looked slow against Gordon. was Talib still nursing an injury?



    I'm thinking this hip injury is a chronic issue that will only be rectified with surgery. Just a guess based on what has transpired since he got here last year.

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  • You have chosen to ignore posts from joepatsfan111111. Show joepatsfan111111's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to Muzwell's comment:



    Substitute LT for "maybe RB" and I'd agree, generally speaking. RBs are a dime a dozen.  I wouldn't keep Ridley over Edelman, for example, if that was my choice.  I'd keep Solder over Talib all day. Or Matt Light over Ty Law.




    hm Solder may be worse off injury wise than Talib with concussions... Vollmer over Talib, sure. 

    but  agree RBs are a quarter a dozen while slot WRs are dime a dozen.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to joepatsfan111111's comment:

    In response to Muzwell's comment:



    Substitute LT for "maybe RB" and I'd agree, generally speaking. RBs are a dime a dozen.  I wouldn't keep Ridley over Edelman, for example, if that was my choice.  I'd keep Solder over Talib all day. Or Matt Light over Ty Law.




    hm Solder may be worse off injury wise than Talib with concussions... Vollmer over Talib, sure. 

    but  agree RBs are a quarter a dozen while slot WRs are dime a dozen.



    I think WRs that can fit into a system, run routes, learn the offense, etc., are more difficult to find than RBs. You can plug a reasonably competent RB into almost any system and he can contribute from day one. Maybe has to learn the blocking assignments, which some guys struggle with. But overall, RBs are more plug-and-play.

    Not as easy with a WR. Usually takes a couple of years. Heck, look at Edelman hiimself. Look at the young WRs this year, it's not easy.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from joepatsfan111111. Show joepatsfan111111's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to Muzwell's comment:



    I think WRs that can fit into a system, run routes, learn the offense, etc., are more difficult to find than RBs. You can plug a reasonably competent RB into almost any system and he can contribute from day one. Maybe has to learn the blocking assignments, which some guys struggle with. But overall, RBs are more plug-and-play.

    Not as easy with a WR. Usually takes a couple of years. Heck, look at Edelman hiimself. Look at the young WRs this year, it's not easy.



    agree 100% but WRs can be developed and groomed. CBs like Talib are rare talents and thats why he's needed more than Edelman to me. Edelman is talented but I think many WRs could do what he has for us. not all though, because like you said, learning the system can be tough. Brady can make crap loook good (see 2006)

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

    In response to agcsbill's comment:

    It is unfortunate a team can't stay together like in the good ol' days for years.  The fact the Pats have been doing it in this salary cap - parity era is amazing.  All to the chagrin of the NFL.



    Agreed, excellent front office work!




    but what if they played in a halfway decent duvision the last decade plus and didn't stumble on Tom Brady? U think the do this playing Steelers and Ravens twice a year? Or in the NFC East outside of this year? No Way Jose!

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to agcsbill's comment:

    It is unfortunate a team can't stay together like in the good ol' days for years.  The fact the Pats have been doing it in this salary cap - parity era is amazing.  All to the chagrin of the NFL.




    why the chagrin of the NFL? Pats haven't won SB in 10 years

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    Talib.  The failed QB turned kick returner turned wide receiver can be replaced.  Tom Brady turns junk into gold.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from oklahomapatriot. Show oklahomapatriot's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to 42AND46's comment:

    In response to agcsbill's comment:

    It is unfortunate a team can't stay together like in the good ol' days for years.  The fact the Pats have been doing it in this salary cap - parity era is amazing.  All to the chagrin of the NFL.




    why the chagrin of the NFL? Pats haven't won SB in 10 years




    jints, why you gotta go there? at least they keep winning and getting a chnace to go back and win.

    what have you boys done the last two seasons? eli-minated

     

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from 49Patriots. Show 49Patriots's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    Talib, Brady makes his slot WRs. See Welker and Edelman.

     
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    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to joepatsfan111111's comment:

    Talib. edelman's grow on trees. aka thru Tom Brady's arm. good qb= atleast decent slot receiver. Take the risk with Amendola and cut him after 2014 if it doesn't work. Slot WRs are dime a dozen



         Talib's decision is complicated due to his possible chronic hip problem. If Talib is sound physically, he's the more valuable guy.

         There are teams out there with lots of cap space...such as the Jets ($40mil.). I doubt that the Pats will break the bank for either guy.

         The Pats have some huge off-season decisions to make on Gronk, Wilfolk, Mayo, Spikes, Vollmer, Edelman, and Talib. Some or all of these guys will not be Patriots next season. 

     
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    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    In response to rkarp's comment:

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    Easy. $4 - $6 mil right now, possibly more (depending on where cap ends up). $6 to $8 mil savings from VW alone, depending on cut or restructure ($8 mil if they cut him outright). All of the following are candidates for cut or restructure (and maximum possible savings in millions):

    Mankins ($2.5), Mayo ($3.7), Connolly ($3.0), Ghost ($3.0), Sopoaga ($2.75), Gregory ($2.35), Kelly ($2.5), AWilson ($1.2). Plus any number of other guys at numbers less than $1 mil. There's also the possibility of relief from Hernandez's $7.5 mil hit, depending on how that shakes out. 

    A restructure of VW, plus the release of Gregory, Soap and Wilson and nothing else, that's $13 mil in savings, plus the $4 to $6 they already have. Do the math.



    Muzzy, they don't have $4-6 now. Right now, they are at the 2014 Cap limit

    they will need approx $5M to sign rookies

    they like to carry $5-7M for in season moves, but that may change in 2014 due to a tight cap

    as of today, there will be no relief on Hernandez, and as of now, the team is not contesting that.

    i can see them taking hard decisions with Mankins and Vince to some extent, but they do not have the depth to walk away from them. 

    Cutting mayo works in reverse, as it is a greater cap hit than he is owed for 2014.

    they will have limited flexibility of about $8M in free agency, and I would assume they look at Talib and OL. Edelman was great this year, but I believe BB sets a limit and won't go over it. Other teams will, leaving Edelman no choice.



    Either your numbers are wrong or mine are. I have them at $116 mil against their 2014 cap, cap about $122 plus or minus. Mayo's cap hit at $7.28 mil and his dead money at $3.6, so a savings of $3.68 if he's cut.

    VW will be restructured or cut, either way there's at least $6 mil in savings. There's big savings if they redo Mankins, but that would mean extending him as well. I don't see them extending either of those guys, too old. At some point, it's time to move on. Remember, remember, remember, BB's credo: it's better to cut a guy a year early than a year late. They've been plenty loyal to those guys over the years by paying them big money. If they cut them, it's about $11 mil in savings. That can buy a lot of depth.

    They have some hard decisions, but they'll be able to sign Talib and Edelman fairly easily, again, that's if they don't get a ridiculous offer from someone else.

    You may be right on Hern, but last I read there's been no final determination on his situation. There's a grievance hearing in March over the PA's claim that he should be paid his full bonus and what not. 



    http://overthecap.com/nfl-cap-space2.php?Year=2014

     

    Over the cap has the Pats top 51 players plus dead money at $123M and I believe the cap for 2014 will be right at the $122-$123 same as this year.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to rkarp's comment:

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    In response to rkarp's comment:

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    Easy. $4 - $6 mil right now, possibly more (depending on where cap ends up). $6 to $8 mil savings from VW alone, depending on cut or restructure ($8 mil if they cut him outright). All of the following are candidates for cut or restructure (and maximum possible savings in millions):

    Mankins ($2.5), Mayo ($3.7), Connolly ($3.0), Ghost ($3.0), Sopoaga ($2.75), Gregory ($2.35), Kelly ($2.5), AWilson ($1.2). Plus any number of other guys at numbers less than $1 mil. There's also the possibility of relief from Hernandez's $7.5 mil hit, depending on how that shakes out. 

    A restructure of VW, plus the release of Gregory, Soap and Wilson and nothing else, that's $13 mil in savings, plus the $4 to $6 they already have. Do the math.



    Muzzy, they don't have $4-6 now. Right now, they are at the 2014 Cap limit

    they will need approx $5M to sign rookies

    they like to carry $5-7M for in season moves, but that may change in 2014 due to a tight cap

    as of today, there will be no relief on Hernandez, and as of now, the team is not contesting that.

    i can see them taking hard decisions with Mankins and Vince to some extent, but they do not have the depth to walk away from them. 

    Cutting mayo works in reverse, as it is a greater cap hit than he is owed for 2014.

    they will have limited flexibility of about $8M in free agency, and I would assume they look at Talib and OL. Edelman was great this year, but I believe BB sets a limit and won't go over it. Other teams will, leaving Edelman no choice.



    Either your numbers are wrong or mine are. I have them at $116 mil against their 2014 cap, cap about $122 plus or minus. Mayo's cap hit at $7.28 mil and his dead money at $3.6, so a savings of $3.68 if he's cut.

    VW will be restructured or cut, either way there's at least $6 mil in savings. There's big savings if they redo Mankins, but that would mean extending him as well. I don't see them extending either of those guys, too old. At some point, it's time to move on. Remember, remember, remember, BB's credo: it's better to cut a guy a year early than a year late. They've been plenty loyal to those guys over the years by paying them big money. If they cut them, it's about $11 mil in savings. That can buy a lot of depth.

    They have some hard decisions, but they'll be able to sign Talib and Edelman fairly easily, again, that's if they don't get a ridiculous offer from someone else.

    You may be right on Hern, but last I read there's been no final determination on his situation. There's a grievance hearing in March over the PA's claim that he should be paid his full bonus and what not. 



    http://overthecap.com/nfl-cap-space2.php?Year=2014

     

    Over the cap has the Pats top 51 players plus dead money at $123M and I believe the cap for 2014 will be right at the $122-$123 same as this year.



    We are right against the cap? In other words in "salary cap hell" how rusty likes to call it. Then this will be an excellent case study about how "salary cap hell" really doesn't exist in our very own back yard!

    Watch what the Patriots will do...they will do what everyone else does to field a competitive team...they will cut players, extend players, renogotiate players, reduce players salary, trade players. In the end we will be fine - we will sign some players, draft some players...what's the worse that can happen? We will have to rely on our quarterback and depend on cheap undrafted free agents as better teams punch us in the face in the playoffs? Big deal, we've been doing that for close to a decade now.

    With Belichick the coach and Tom Brady the quarterback we can sign nobody's in November and Bill will put them in position to hide their weaknesses long enough to win the AFC east. Brady will throw enough good passes and manage the game, field position and the battle of turnovers enough to get us over 10 wins...he's done it every year since he's been here.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    I don't know if I'd sign either one long term quite frankly - I mean they both have histories of injuries - in the case of Talib...with what he may cost I don't want to pay him with that hip. There's got ot be a cheaper alternative. And with Edelman, I like what he developed into, but remember that took five years, he was an injury waiting to happen in four of those five years. Can you break the bank for him? Should you? I don't think you can. Now if he wants to sign a 5 year 25 million dollar deal, then ok, let's give him that and cross our fingers he stays healthy, but he's going to want more than that. And I don't blame him.

     

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to mthurl's comment:

    In response to rkarp's comment:

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    In response to rkarp's comment:

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    Easy. $4 - $6 mil right now, possibly more (depending on where cap ends up). $6 to $8 mil savings from VW alone, depending on cut or restructure ($8 mil if they cut him outright). All of the following are candidates for cut or restructure (and maximum possible savings in millions):

    Mankins ($2.5), Mayo ($3.7), Connolly ($3.0), Ghost ($3.0), Sopoaga ($2.75), Gregory ($2.35), Kelly ($2.5), AWilson ($1.2). Plus any number of other guys at numbers less than $1 mil. There's also the possibility of relief from Hernandez's $7.5 mil hit, depending on how that shakes out. 

    A restructure of VW, plus the release of Gregory, Soap and Wilson and nothing else, that's $13 mil in savings, plus the $4 to $6 they already have. Do the math.



    Muzzy, they don't have $4-6 now. Right now, they are at the 2014 Cap limit

    they will need approx $5M to sign rookies

    they like to carry $5-7M for in season moves, but that may change in 2014 due to a tight cap

    as of today, there will be no relief on Hernandez, and as of now, the team is not contesting that.

    i can see them taking hard decisions with Mankins and Vince to some extent, but they do not have the depth to walk away from them. 

    Cutting mayo works in reverse, as it is a greater cap hit than he is owed for 2014.

    they will have limited flexibility of about $8M in free agency, and I would assume they look at Talib and OL. Edelman was great this year, but I believe BB sets a limit and won't go over it. Other teams will, leaving Edelman no choice.



    Either your numbers are wrong or mine are. I have them at $116 mil against their 2014 cap, cap about $122 plus or minus. Mayo's cap hit at $7.28 mil and his dead money at $3.6, so a savings of $3.68 if he's cut.

    VW will be restructured or cut, either way there's at least $6 mil in savings. There's big savings if they redo Mankins, but that would mean extending him as well. I don't see them extending either of those guys, too old. At some point, it's time to move on. Remember, remember, remember, BB's credo: it's better to cut a guy a year early than a year late. They've been plenty loyal to those guys over the years by paying them big money. If they cut them, it's about $11 mil in savings. That can buy a lot of depth.

    They have some hard decisions, but they'll be able to sign Talib and Edelman fairly easily, again, that's if they don't get a ridiculous offer from someone else.

    You may be right on Hern, but last I read there's been no final determination on his situation. There's a grievance hearing in March over the PA's claim that he should be paid his full bonus and what not. 



    http://overthecap.com/nfl-cap-space2.php?Year=2014

     

    Over the cap has the Pats top 51 players plus dead money at $123M and I believe the cap for 2014 will be right at the $122-$123 same as this year.



    We are right against the cap? In other words in "salary cap hell" how rusty likes to call it. Then this will be an excellent case study about how "salary cap hell" really doesn't exist in our very own back yard!

    Watch what the Patriots will do...they will do what everyone else does to field a competitive team...they will cut players, extend players, renogotiate players, reduce players salary, trade players. In the end we will be fine - we will sign some players, draft some players...what's the worse that can happen? We will have to rely on our quarterback and depend on cheap undrafted free agents as better teams punch us in the face in the playoffs? Big deal, we've been doing that for close to a decade now.

    With Belichick the coach and Tom Brady the quarterback we can sign nobody's in November and Bill will put them in position to hide their weaknesses long enough to win the AFC east. Brady will throw enough good passes and manage the game, field position and the battle of turnovers enough to get us over 10 wins...he's done it every year since he's been here.



    Do you ever read your own B.S? I mean, what a waste of time man. Why come on here to just flat out lie to yourself? Like I said yesterday, it is some form of therapeutic release for your own life, or you just aren't a Pats fan, as nobody could be this wrong on a team that they actually root for. It's impossible, most fans lie to themeelves and say their teams are better then they actually are, like rkarp and his jets for example, but you.....you lie to yourself that your team sucks as they go on a 13 year run of absolute dominance. Too funny big guy!

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from NoMorePensionLooting. Show NoMorePensionLooting's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    Second toughest position to play in football...DB

    Sorry Edelman....

     
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