EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to Muzwell's comment:
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    In response to rkarp's comment:
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    In response to Muzwell's comment:
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    Easy. $4 - $6 mil right now, possibly more (depending on where cap ends up). $6 to $8 mil savings from VW alone, depending on cut or restructure ($8 mil if they cut him outright). All of the following are candidates for cut or restructure (and maximum possible savings in millions):

    Mankins ($2.5), Mayo ($3.7), Connolly ($3.0), Ghost ($3.0), Sopoaga ($2.75), Gregory ($2.35), Kelly ($2.5), AWilson ($1.2). Plus any number of other guys at numbers less than $1 mil. There's also the possibility of relief from Hernandez's $7.5 mil hit, depending on how that shakes out. 

    A restructure of VW, plus the release of Gregory, Soap and Wilson and nothing else, that's $13 mil in savings, plus the $4 to $6 they already have. Do the math.

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    Muzzy, they don't have $4-6 now. Right now, they are at the 2014 Cap limit

    they will need approx $5M to sign rookies

    they like to carry $5-7M for in season moves, but that may change in 2014 due to a tight cap

    as of today, there will be no relief on Hernandez, and as of now, the team is not contesting that.

    i can see them taking hard decisions with Mankins and Vince to some extent, but they do not have the depth to walk away from them. 

    Cutting mayo works in reverse, as it is a greater cap hit than he is owed for 2014.

    they will have limited flexibility of about $8M in free agency, and I would assume they look at Talib and OL. Edelman was great this year, but I believe BB sets a limit and won't go over it. Other teams will, leaving Edelman no choice.

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    Either your numbers are wrong or mine are. I have them at $116 mil against their 2014 cap, cap about $122 plus or minus. Mayo's cap hit at $7.28 mil and his dead money at $3.6, so a savings of $3.68 if he's cut.

    VW will be restructured or cut, either way there's at least $6 mil in savings. There's big savings if they redo Mankins, but that would mean extending him as well. I don't see them extending either of those guys, too old. At some point, it's time to move on. Remember, remember, remember, BB's credo: it's better to cut a guy a year early than a year late. They've been plenty loyal to those guys over the years by paying them big money. If they cut them, it's about $11 mil in savings. That can buy a lot of depth.

    They have some hard decisions, but they'll be able to sign Talib and Edelman fairly easily, again, that's if they don't get a ridiculous offer from someone else.

    You may be right on Hern, but last I read there's been no final determination on his situation. There's a grievance hearing in March over the PA's claim that he should be paid his full bonus and what not. 

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    So muzz...uhm, you are all over me for being off 2 million on Amendola's contract (I said it was 30 million, you corrected me it was 28 million), and I probably forgot to throw in the paper work and processing fee of 575.00 (can't forget that!). And then you called me a politician and something else - I can't remember - but I know it was very hurtful:)...and then you post this ?!

    First off, you're off on our OWN salary cap numbers. Then you say the cureall is to cut Mayo and Wilfork!!?? Bawahahah! I mean wow! Oh my Mr. Level Head, that's a funny puzzler coming from you....rusty is going to be very upset with yoooouu.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
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    In response to mthurl's comment:
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    In response to rkarp's comment:
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    In response to Muzwell's comment:
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    Easy. $4 - $6 mil right now, possibly more (depending on where cap ends up). $6 to $8 mil savings from VW alone, depending on cut or restructure ($8 mil if they cut him outright). All of the following are candidates for cut or restructure (and maximum possible savings in millions):

    Mankins ($2.5), Mayo ($3.7), Connolly ($3.0), Ghost ($3.0), Sopoaga ($2.75), Gregory ($2.35), Kelly ($2.5), AWilson ($1.2). Plus any number of other guys at numbers less than $1 mil. There's also the possibility of relief from Hernandez's $7.5 mil hit, depending on how that shakes out. 

    A restructure of VW, plus the release of Gregory, Soap and Wilson and nothing else, that's $13 mil in savings, plus the $4 to $6 they already have. Do the math.

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    Muzzy, they don't have $4-6 now. Right now, they are at the 2014 Cap limit

    they will need approx $5M to sign rookies

    they like to carry $5-7M for in season moves, but that may change in 2014 due to a tight cap

    as of today, there will be no relief on Hernandez, and as of now, the team is not contesting that.

    i can see them taking hard decisions with Mankins and Vince to some extent, but they d

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    Do you ever read your own B.S? I mean, what a waste of time man. Why come on here to just flat out lie to yourself? Like I said yesterday, it is some form of therapeutic release for your own life, or you just aren't a Pats fan, as nobody could be this wrong on a team that they actually root for. It's impossible, most fans lie to themeelves and say their teams are better then they actually are, like rkarp and his jets for example, but you.....you lie to yourself that your team sucks as they go on a 13 year run of absolute dominance. Too funny big guy!

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    Do you ever read the articles you copy and paste? I mean the one you posted said the Patriots inexplicably benched Ridley this year...think about that. You read, copy and pasted an article...most likely took it as gospel and the writer doesn't understand WHY RIDLEY WAS BENCHED THIS YEAR????? Hello!!!

    This is earth calling truechamp! Just because an article makes you feel all warm and fuzzy doesn't mean it's true. Just because rusty told you BJGE was a outstanding running back doesn't mean it's true. Get it?

    And here we are 3 years later and you still think BJGE is great! The guy was 149th in YPC average amongst players that ran with the football this year. He was 28th in rushing yards amongst running backs in early December (I didn't check, but he may of finished even lower). As usual he still can't catch. He is the definition of average, yet every time he carries the ball three feet you want to put him in the Hall of Fame.

    I'm sorry if I'm going to call them as I see them (so sorry). Why does it bother you? It doesn't bother me that when you go on the toilet you try to squish out gigantic PINK Patriot helmets, when I'm happy to root for the team, but understand what they are.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    Where we are against the cap now doesn't necessarily help us too much in figuring out where we'll be next year unless we have a lot of information.  Bascially one of four things is going to happen to every current contract, all of which result in a change to cap position:

    • The contract continues--in this case, it's cap cost likely goes up, since most contracts are written with salaries increasing over time. There are exceptions, but generally continuing contracts get more costly over time.
    • The contract gets restructured--as people have noted there are potential candidates for resturcturing. Most resturcturings convert salary to bonus, which allows the team to defer cap costs into the future. 
    • The contract's term ends--in this case the player has to be re-signed or replaced, so the cost of the replacement player (or the new contract if the player is re-signed) is what matters. We don't know what this will be.
    • The player is cut (or traded) before this coming June 2--in this case, there may be dead money created that counts next year (basically players cut from last June 2 through the coming June 1 will have their dead money accounted for in 2014, though teams do have the option to treat two players cut between the end of a season and the following June 1 as if they were cut after June 1--this means some dead money from 2012 could have been defered to 2014 and some dead money from this season could be defered to 2015). 

    There are also other factors that will affect the cap--settlements like those possible in the Hernandez situation, incentive payments that haven't already been accounted for and that will have to be accounted for next year, other adjustments either for amounts not paid but previously accounted for or for amounts paid but not yet accounted for, etc.  

    When you look at all the moving parts, it starts to seem futile to speculate too much now about our cap position next year unless we have much of the above information (I know I don't--and also don't have the interest or patience to research it all).

    A few general comments on so-called "cap hell.":

    • It exists only if your cap position forces you to cut players you want to keep or prevents you from signining enough good replacements for those leaving--if you can keep your good current players and sign at least reasonable replacements for those who leave, you're fine even if your cap space isn't large 
    • Cap hell shouldn't last more than a year if managed well. Dead money only lasts one year so once you jettison the expensive contracts you are hurt for just the next year. The challenge really is rebuilding your team if a year in cap hell forced you to lose too many good players. You may not be in cap hell for long, but you could be in rebuilding hell for a while.  Again, though, good drafting and signing can straighten this problem out fairly fast. 

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from oklahomapatriot. Show oklahomapatriot's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to ghostofjri37's comment:
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    In response to kansaspatriot's comment:
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    that's your answer. Edelman has won us more games than Talib. if Talib had a high take away ratio I would yeah, keep him.

     

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    ..? picks dont mean much. Talib has great ball skills. i havent heard Talib's name the last three weeks meaning he is blanketing the guy he has covered, the ball doesnt go his way cause he's lock down. Guys like Talib are rare. Julian Edelman is talented but also a product of the system and Tom Brady... like I said slot WRs grow on trees and are a dime a dozen.

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    Talib is a great corner most likely one of the top 5 when healthy but a couple of weeks ago i could have sworn he was chasing Josh gordon for about 80 yards.

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     He looked slow against Gordon. was Talib still nursing an injury?

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    I'm thinking this hip injury is a chronic issue that will only be rectified with surgery. Just a guess based on what has transpired since he got here last year.

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    that's why i'd pass on Taib. he's been hurt 2 years in a row. he's darn good. but time for BB to draft and groom someone to take over that side. heck the defense was loaded with rookies this season, and they made it to the playoffs. the 4 losses can't even be attributed to poor defense, just lack of offensive execution and the refs.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to mthurl's comment:
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    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
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    In response to mthurl's comment:
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    In response to rkarp's comment:
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    In response to Muzwell's comment:
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    In response to Muzwell's comment:
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    Easy. $4 - $6 mil right now, possibly more (depending on where cap ends up). $6 to $8 mil savings from VW alone, depending on cut or restructure ($8 mil if they cut him outright). All of the following are candidates for cut or restructure (and maximum possible savings in millions):

    Mankins ($2.5), Mayo ($3.7), Connolly ($3.0), Ghost ($3.0), Sopoaga ($2.75), Gregory ($2.35), Kelly ($2.5), AWilson ($1.2). Plus any number of other guys at numbers less than $1 mil. There's also the possibility of relief from Hernandez's $7.5 mil hit, depending on how that shakes out. 

    A restructure of VW, plus the release of Gregory, Soap and Wilson and nothing else, that's $13 mil in savings, plus the $4 to $6 they already have. Do the math.

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    Muzzy, they don't have $4-6 now. Right now, they are at the 2014 Cap limit

    they will need approx $5M to sign rookies

    they like to carry $5-7M for in season moves, but that may change in 2014 due to a tight cap

    as of today, there will be no relief on Hernandez, and as of now, the team is not contesting that.

    i can see them taking hard decisions with Mankins and Vince to some extent, but they d

    [/QUOTE]

    Do you ever read your own B.S? I mean, what a waste of time man. Why come on here to just flat out lie to yourself? Like I said yesterday, it is some form of therapeutic release for your own life, or you just aren't a Pats fan, as nobody could be this wrong on a team that they actually root for. It's impossible, most fans lie to themeelves and say their teams are better then they actually are, like rkarp and his jets for example, but you.....you lie to yourself that your team sucks as they go on a 13 year run of absolute dominance. Too funny big guy!

    [/QUOTE]

    Do you ever read the articles you copy and paste? I mean the one you posted said the Patriots inexplicably benched Ridley this year...think about that. You read, copy and pasted an article...most likely took it as gospel and the writer doesn't understand WHY RIDLEY WAS BENCHED THIS YEAR????? Hello!!!

    This is earth calling truechamp! Just because an article makes you feel all warm and fuzzy doesn't mean it's true. Just because rusty told you BJGE was a outstanding running back doesn't mean it's true. Get it?

    And here we are 3 years later and you still think BJGE is great! The guy was 149th in YPC average amongst players that ran with the football this year. He was 28th in rushing yards amongst running backs in early December (I didn't check, but he may of finished even lower). As usual he still can't catch. He is the definition of average, yet every time he carries the ball three feet you want to put him in the Hall of Fame.

    I'm sorry if I'm going to call them as I see them (so sorry). Why does it bother you? It doesn't bother me that when you go on the toilet you try to squish out gigantic PINK Patriot helmets, when I'm happy to root for the team, but understand what they are.

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    Putting words in somebody's mouth is no way to gain ground in an argument. I said in the super bowl we should have ran our power back more who happened to be bjge, as he was running well with 4.5 ypc against a bad run defense.  We did the same thing we did the other 3 times we played the gints in 3 losses, 135 passes to 55 rushes in 3 losses in a row. I didn't care who the power back was, but it happened to be bjge and he ran effectively. Try sticking to the topic when you debate amd perhaps you will be taken more seriously. Putting words in mouths like you saying i said bjge was a hall of famer and other stuff loses you credibility.  I hope I helped your cause and good luck on your never ending quest to attack BB the GM.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to mthurl's comment:
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    So muzz...uhm, you are all over me for being off 2 million on Amendola's contract (I said it was 30 million, you corrected me it was 28 million), and I probably forgot to throw in the paper work and processing fee of 575.00 (can't forget that!). And then you called me a politician and something else - I can't remember - but I know it was very hurtful:)...and then you post this ?!

    First off, you're off on our OWN salary cap numbers. Then you say the cureall is to cut Mayo and Wilfork!!?? Bawahahah! I mean wow! Oh my Mr. Level Head, that's a funny puzzler coming from you....rusty is going to be very upset with yoooouu.

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    This proves the politician part actually. You bring up the Amendola total contract value where you were off by $2 mil, but neglect to mention that was just one of several examples where you were off by literally tens of millions. If that was the only error, I wouldn't have brought it up.

    As for cutting Mayo, Wilfork, Mankins and whoever. You're smart enough to understand how the NFL operates. When guys get old and/or injured, AND when they get to the point where it's cheaper to cut them than keep them, they either go away, get restructured or you live with the contract, if they're still playing at an acceptable level and if you don't want to extend them and tie yourself to them longer. 

    If they cut just those three guys, they would save about $14 million against their 2014 cap. I suspect they will restructure Mayo and Wilfork, or cut them.  Mankins will probably just play out his deal.

    Loyalty in the NFL consists of money, period. Those three guys have been paid very well, the Patriots don't owe them a damn thing. BB is not sentimental. He has built this team around knowing when to move on. Wilfork and Mayo are coming off injuries, if they can be replaced by younger, cheaper models, they'll be gone. If they can restructure, they'll do that.

    It's a cold, hard business. Everybody is replaceable and everybody has a price tag. Again, you're better off cutting a guy a year early than a year late. It's no different with those three guys.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeadowlandMike. Show MeadowlandMike's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to DeadAhead's comment:

    In response to MeadowlandMike's comment:
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    In response to Muzwell's comment:
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    In response to MeadowlandMike's comment:
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    With the cap hell Pats, I just can't see how they will be able to sign either.  Looks like the Jets will be sitting around 40 mil under the cap and 10-12 draft picks.  



    Plus Geno Smith and Rex Ryan, what could possibly go wrong?

    Pats will have about $15 mil in cap space, perhaps more (depending on VW and Mankins and a couple of others) to sign their players.

    Both will be back unless someone offers them stupid money. 

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    15 mil?  Really?  How is that going to come to be?  Will they go back to the Tom Brady well again and extend him a few more years? Will they ask Mankins, who BB has already tried to screw over to take a pay cut?  What is a 33 year old NT worth coming over a career ending injury?

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    Your jealousy is delicious with known wasted draft picks from 2013 in Milliner and Geno Bust, not to mention whoever else you took after that. lol

    Your team is literally the worst drafting franchise in the entire NFL. How does that feel in a flat cap?

    LOL!!!

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    Really?  The worst drafting team in the entire NFL?  Much like your idiotic claim that BB is the best GM in football, I'm sure you are way too much of a puss to provide any quantification of another idiotic claim.  Am I right?  Wilkerson, Coples, Richardson, Harris, Davis... all recent draft picks on a top 5 run D.  Yep, the worst.  

    Hey remember that time that your guy logan ryan gave Tannehill a career day, but Milliner shut him down?  That was awesome.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from joepatsfan111111. Show joepatsfan111111's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    I still don't see why Mayo being cut is even being thrown out here.

    I can see VW, he's old, coming off an achilles injury and isnt the same guy. and the money is a lot.

    Mayo is a top 5 LB in the league and has pretty much a similar deal to Bowman and Willis but MAyo's is less $ which makes sense because he's a notch below them.  

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from portfolio1. Show portfolio1's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:
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    Talib. He is essential to the D. Edeman's 100 catches will be caught by others easily enough.

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    I woulldnt say easily enough... that is clearly not a fair characterization - note both 2006 season AND mroe recetnly the first 7 games or so of this year.....

    But in essence I agree with the concept... the very good cover corner is more valuable to this team. We will have (assuming reasonable health):

    1. Gronk

    2. Amendola

    3. Dobson (a year under his bealt is meaningful)

    4. Thompkins (a year under his belt is meaningful and his role not needing to be the primary but a good alternative)

    5. Boyce (dito as per Thompkins but his value is as a more limited targets... deep threat plus some speed crossing patterns)

    6. Vereen (do not underestimate a RB with WR quality route and catching skills... signifiacnt trouble for Ds to match up)

    7. If we lose Julian we would still ahve FA and draft to look for another option at TE or WR going into training camp

    With all the above - and I do want to keep Julian... Talib is more CRITICAL.

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to joepatsfan111111's comment:
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    I still don't see why Mayo being cut is even being thrown out here.

    I can see VW, he's old, coming off an achilles injury and isnt the same guy. and the money is a lot.

    Mayo is a top 5 LB in the league and has pretty much a similar deal to Bowman and Willis but MAyo's is less $ which makes sense because he's a notch below them.  

     

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    Those guys will be restructured or cut when their time comes also. That's the business. You don't hang on to anybody because of what they were. If their current play doesn't justify their cap hit, they either get the cap number down or they go away. 

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from joepatsfan111111. Show joepatsfan111111's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    In response to joepatsfan111111's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I still don't see why Mayo being cut is even being thrown out here.

    I can see VW, he's old, coming off an achilles injury and isnt the same guy. and the money is a lot.

    Mayo is a top 5 LB in the league and has pretty much a similar deal to Bowman and Willis but MAyo's is less $ which makes sense because he's a notch below them.  

     



    Those guys will be restructured or cut when their time comes also. That's the business. You don't hang on to anybody because of what they were. If their current play doesn't justify their cap hit, they either get the cap number down or they go away. 

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    understandable. which is why i agree about VW.

    but MAyo is 27-28 and still playing at a very high level in his prime. the money we are paying him is exactly at the level he plays and what he brings to the team. maybe in 2016 this is a different story and Mayo isnt worth the huge cap hit... but for now he's a pro bowler and rock on D

    just my opinion. some guys you pay and some are untouchable. Mayo is the most valuable defender we have imo or atleast one of the top ones

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from portfolio1. Show portfolio1's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to MeadowlandMike's comment:


    Really?  The worst drafting team in the entire NFL?  Much like your idiotic claim that BB is the best GM in football, I'm sure you are way too much of a puss to provide any quantification of another idiotic claim.  Am I right?  Wilkerson, Coples, Richardson, Harris, Davis... all recent draft picks on a top 5 run D.  Yep, the worst.  

    Hey remember that time that your guy logan ryan gave Tannehill a career day, but Milliner shut him down?  That was awesome.

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    Hey girl. I see you haven't attended the football classes at school again. Look Meadow, you can't get by just by pretending to know something. Look... you keep talking about how great the Jets are (such as the Milliner comment) and how bad the Pats are (cap hell, bad roster, cheap owner - the juxtaposition of this past remark with the cap hell is mutually exclusive... that is you cannot have it both ways Meadow). Yet every year... let me say it again Meadow... Every Year... the Pats have a better record... the Pats win the Division and Jets never ever do. And the Pats at least make it to the SB every now and then. The Jets never do.

    So you come off sounding like... well, Meadow.. like a girl who has a boy friend who has never played football but watches a bad team and you want to make him feel like you both know a little about football and likes his team. In short Meadow, you sound lame. 

    Look. Go to the classes. Learn the game. Then you can make comments one year about that Other Jets drafted CB you were gushing about two years ago only to start gushing about this years rookie. 

    What are you going to say when the Pats, in "cap hell" once again beat the Jets out EASILY for the division title? Heck, what are you going to do this year if the Pats even win ONE playoff game?

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from portfolio1. Show portfolio1's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to joepatsfan111111's comment:
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    In response to Muzwell's comment:

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    In response to joepatsfan111111's comment:
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    I still don't see why Mayo being cut is even being thrown out here.

    I can see VW, he's old, coming off an achilles injury and isnt the same guy. and the money is a lot.

    Mayo is a top 5 LB in the league and has pretty much a similar deal to Bowman and Willis but MAyo's is less $ which makes sense because he's a notch below them.  

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Those guys will be restructured or cut when their time comes also. That's the business. You don't hang on to anybody because of what they were. If their current play doesn't justify their cap hit, they either get the cap number down or they go away. 

     

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    understandable. which is why i agree about VW.

    but MAyo is 27-28 and still playing at a very high level in his prime. the money we are paying him is exactly at the level he plays and what he brings to the team. maybe in 2016 this is a different story and Mayo isnt worth the huge cap hit... but for now he's a pro bowler and rock on D

    just my opinion. some guys you pay and some are untouchable. Mayo is the most valuable defender we have imo or atleast one of the top ones

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    Joe - give Meadow a call. You clearly know something about what you are talking about and she reallllly would like to know what she is talking about. And listen, she is cute. Well, she has a good personality.... well, look, she wants to be able to talk about football without showing everyone how ... how.... how ignorant she is about it... so if you could call her and give her some tips on the game and on putting together a roster. 

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to Muzwell's comment:
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    In response to mthurl's comment:
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    ....[/QUOTE]


    So muzz...uhm, you are all over me for being off 2 million on Amendola's contract (I said it was 30 million, you corrected me it was 28 million), and I probably forgot to throw in the paper work and processing fee of 575.00 (can't forget that!). And then you called me a politician and something else - I can't remember - but I know it was very hurtful:)...and then you post this ?!

    First off, you're off on our OWN salary cap numbers. Then you say the cureall is to cut Mayo and Wilfork!!?? Bawahahah! I mean wow! Oh my Mr. Level Head, that's a funny puzzler coming from you....rusty is going to be very upset with yoooouu.

    [/QUOTE]

    This proves the politician part actually. You bring up the Amendola total contract value where you were off by $2 mil, but neglect to mention that was just one of several examples where you were off by literally tens of millions. If that was the only error, I wouldn't have brought it up.

    As for cutting Mayo, Wilfork, Mankins and whoever. You're smart enough to understand how the NFL operates. When guys get old and/or injured, AND when they get to the point where it's cheaper to cut them than keep them, they either go away, get restructured or you live with the contract, if they're still playing at an acceptable level and if you don't want to extend them and tie yourself to them longer. 

    If they cut just those three guys, they would save about $14 million against their 2014 cap. I suspect they will restructure Mayo and Wilfork, or cut them.  Mankins will probably just play out his deal.

    Loyalty in the NFL consists of money, period. Those three guys have been paid very well, the Patriots don't owe them a damn thing. BB is not sentimental. He has built this team around knowing when to move on. Wilfork and Mayo are coming off injuries, if they can be replaced by younger, cheaper models, they'll be gone. If they can restructure, they'll do that.

    It's a cold, hard business. Everybody is replaceable and everybody has a price tag. Again, you're better off cutting a guy a year early than a year late. It's no different with those three guys.

    [/QUOTE]

    A politician? Lol!

    Truth is I wasn't far off on any of those contracts - this a football forum - I googled those players. I got Fanene's numbers wrong by two million according to you, but that is what it said on the bleacher report. And I also didn't add in what it cost to find players to take the spots of all those busts, because that is what had to happen, we had to pay others to replace those mistakes. How much extra did that cost? How many draft picks did that take? Doesn't matter, the NFL salary structure is as fluid as anything in all of sports, but I think we blew our window of opportunity. I do. And it bugs me - I guess I'm spoiled - sorry. 

    As for this being a business and this GM not being afraid to cut players, I'm aware of that. I do think we will see some surprising names getting cut this off season, because that is football...NFL football. I think Wilfork will restructure...I think he understands the situation. I'd like to see something done with Mankins, but I don't think he'll be quite as accommodating. As for Mayo? I don't know what they'd save there - it would have to be worth it. Too bad some of these assets couldn't be traded, but no one is going to want those contracts.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    Is Mayo worth a $7 mil cap hit coming off a major injury? That's the only question. That, and can they restructure and bring that number down? 

    If they think he still has years left (and I'm pretty sure they do, even with the injury), they can convert some or all his salary to a bonus and spread it out over x number of years and probably save $4 mil against their cap next year. He gets guaranteed money, they get cap relief, it's all good.

    Wilfork is different. Injury is worse, he's older, bigger, etc. and his salary is $4 mil more than Mayo.  Do you want to guarantee him that much money? I don't know. I'd see if they can cut and resign him to an incentive-based contract.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from joepatsfan111111. Show joepatsfan111111's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to Muzwell's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Is Mayo worth a $7 mil cap hit coming off a major injury? That's the only question. That, and can they restructure and bring that number down? 

    If they think he still has years left (and I'm pretty sure they do, even with the injury), they can convert some or all his salary to a bonus and spread it out over x number of years and probably save $4 mil against their cap next year. He gets guaranteed money, they get cap relief, it's all good.

    Wilfork is different. Injury is worse, he's older, bigger, etc. and his salary is $4 mil more than Mayo.  Do you want to guarantee him that much money? I don't know. I'd see if they can cut and resign him to an incentive-based contract.

    [/QUOTE]

    there we go. i agree with this 1000%. cutting mayo just never seemed logical to me and he is still in his prime. but Mayo is a true patriot imo and if BB approaches Mayo the right way about reducing salary for the team i think Mayo would oblige for the team. but if not Mayo is worth the 7 million easily.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to Muzwell's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Is Mayo worth a $7 mil cap hit coming off a major injury? That's the only question. That, and can they restructure and bring that number down? 

    If they think he still has years left (and I'm pretty sure they do, even with the injury), they can convert some or all his salary to a bonus and spread it out over x number of years and probably save $4 mil against their cap next year. He gets guaranteed money, they get cap relief, it's all good.

    Wilfork is different. Injury is worse, he's older, bigger, etc. and his salary is $4 mil more than Mayo.  Do you want to guarantee him that much money? I don't know. I'd see if they can cut and resign him to an incentive-based contract.

    [/QUOTE]

    Ok. Makes sense.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeadowlandMike. Show MeadowlandMike's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to portfolio1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MeadowlandMike's comment:


    Really?  The worst drafting team in the entire NFL?  Much like your idiotic claim that BB is the best GM in football, I'm sure you are way too much of a puss to provide any quantification of another idiotic claim.  Am I right?  Wilkerson, Coples, Richardson, Harris, Davis... all recent draft picks on a top 5 run D.  Yep, the worst.  

    Hey remember that time that your guy logan ryan gave Tannehill a career day, but Milliner shut him down?  That was awesome.

    [/QUOTE]


    Hey girl. I see you haven't attended the football classes at school again. Look Meadow, you can't get by just by pretending to know something. Look... you keep talking about how great the Jets are (such as the Milliner comment) and how bad the Pats are (cap hell, bad roster, cheap owner - the juxtaposition of this past remark with the cap hell is mutually exclusive... that is you cannot have it both ways Meadow). Yet every year... let me say it again Meadow... Every Year... the Pats have a better record... the Pats win the Division and Jets never ever do. And the Pats at least make it to the SB every now and then. The Jets never do.

    So you come off sounding like... well, Meadow.. like a girl who has a boy friend who has never played football but watches a bad team and you want to make him feel like you both know a little about football and likes his team. In short Meadow, you sound lame. 

    Look. Go to the classes. Learn the game. Then you can make comments one year about that Other Jets drafted CB you were gushing about two years ago only to start gushing about this years rookie. 

    What are you going to say when the Pats, in "cap hell" once again beat the Jets out EASILY for the division title? Heck, what are you going to do this year if the Pats even win ONE playoff game?

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Just making stuff up?  How weird.  Regardless, it's amazing what a great QB will do for a team with regards to other mismanagement. 

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Davedsone. Show Davedsone's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    Talib.  But his head really bothers me.  Watching him lose it in Carolina was disturbing.  Hopefully he calms down and Dennard doesn't make a habit of slapping cops and we can enjoy some more of what we got this year.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?


    If a team is dumb enough to give Edelman a big contract then TJ Moe might step in and catch a 100 balls next year, or Danny! 

    VW will be Ted Washington part 2. He will gain 30 pounds, become a 400 pound immovable object amd anchor the defense for another Super Bowl after we win this 1! All after taking a home town discount to the team that made him the highest paid d linemen at 1 point!

    Talib has graded out at a negative rating in almost every game since his return from injur courtesy of profootballfocus, but he will still get a 4 year 25 mill deal from the jets after they cut cromartie and his 13 million dollar cap number next year(lol)  He had a -3.1 in pass coverage against the bills as their back up qb tore him up. we drafted Talibs replacement in Ryan, and we will draft another cb next year,  as corners are no longer worth the big contracts in this NFL. See Samuels, Bodden, cromartie, namde, revis, etc.....

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from ccnsd. Show ccnsd's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:


    If a team is dumb enough to give Edelman a big contract then TJ Moe might step in and catch a 100 balls next year, or Danny! 

    VW will be Ted Washington part 2. He will gain 30 pounds, become a 400 pound immovable object amd anchor the defense for another Super Bowl after we win this 1! All after taking a home town discount to the team that made him the highest paid d linemen at 1 point!

    Talib has graded out at a negative rating in almost every game since his return from injur courtesy of profootballfocus, but he will still get a 4 year 25 mill deal from the jets after they cut cromartie and his 13 million dollar cap number next year(lol)  He had a -3.1 in pass coverage against the bills as their back up qb tore him up. we drafted Talibs replacement in Ryan, and we will draft another cb next year,  as corners are no longer worth the big contracts in this NFL. See Samuels, Bodden, cromartie, namde, revis, etc.....



    The only ratings I truly trust are those from the coaching staff since they know the players responsibilities.  Belichick cut Bodden mid seasan with no great loss and apparently he was one of the best cornerbacks in the NFL according to one of these rating sites (so says Rusty).

    I am very skeptical on non baseball metrics. I call it the Bobby Orr effect. Whoever was Bobby Orr's defensive linemate was usually ranked in the top 5 of +/- almost every year back in the day. Defensive backs with a good pass rush are always overrated and those with a bad pass rush are usually underrated. Since Talib arrived the Pats pass defense has improved statistically as well as improved from the eye test standpoint.

    If Belichick offers Talib a good contract (even if it is refused) that will show me how good Talib was this year. I don't think Belichick is a great GM (a very good one with some bad years) but i do think he knows football as well as anyone in the league and he seems to respect the CB position a lot. That is why Law got a huge deal and Samual was franchised.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from joepatsfan111111. Show joepatsfan111111's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to ccnsd's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    [/QUOTE]

    The only ratings I truly trust ae those from the coaching staff since they know the players responsibilities.  Belichick cut Bodden mid seasan with no great loss and apparently he was one of the best cornerbacks in the NFL according to one of these rating sites (so says Rusty).

    I am very skeptical on non baseball metrics. I call it the Bobby Orr effect. Whoever was Bobby Orr's defensive linemate was usually ranked in the top 5 of +/- almost every year back in the day. Defensive backs with a good pass rush are always overrated and those with a bad pass rush are usually underrated. Since Talib arrived the Pats pass defense has improved statistically as well as improved from the eye test standpoint.

    If Belichick offers Talib a good contract (even if it is refused) that will show me how good Talib was this year. I don't think Belichick is a great GM (a very good one with some bad years) but i do think he knows football as well as anyone in the league and he seems to respect the CB position a lot. That is why Law got a huge deal and Samual was franchised.

    [/QUOTE]

    in bold are very agreeable and great opinions. great post

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimmytantric. Show jimmytantric's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    Good man cover corner vs short yardage  reciever--no brainer Talib! Brady can get by with someone else -- DA or Boyce? But teams need good cover corners in this pass happy NFL!

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to ccnsd's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    If a team is dumb enough to give Edelman a big contract then TJ Moe might step in and catch a 100 balls next year, or Danny! 

    VW will be Ted Washington part 2. He will gain 30 pounds, become a 400 pound immovable object amd anchor the defense for another Super Bowl after we win this 1! All after taking a home town discount to the team that made him the highest paid d linemen at 1 point!

    Talib has graded out at a negative rating in almost every game since his return from injur courtesy of profootballfocus, but he will still get a 4 year 25 mill deal from the jets after they cut cromartie and his 13 million dollar cap number next year(lol)  He had a -3.1 in pass coverage against the bills as their back up qb tore him up. we drafted Talibs replacement in Ryan, and we will draft another cb next year,  as corners are no longer worth the big contracts in this NFL. See Samuels, Bodden, cromartie, namde, revis, etc.....

    [/QUOTE]

    The only ratings I truly trust ae those from the coaching staff since they know the players responsibilities.  Belichick cut Bodden mid seasan with no great loss and apparently he was one of the best cornerbacks in the NFL according to one of these rating sites (so says Rusty).

    I am very skeptical on non baseball metrics. I call it the Bobby Orr effect. Whoever was Bobby Orr's defensive linemate was usually ranked in the top 5 of +/- almost every year back in the day. Defensive backs with a good pass rush are always overrated and those with a bad pass rush are usually underrated. Since Talib arrived the Pats pass defense has improved statistically as well as improved from the eye test standpoint.

    If Belichick offers Talib a good contract (even if it is refused) that will show me how good Talib was this year. I don't think Belichick is a great GM (a very good one with some bad years) but i do think he knows football as well as anyone in the league and he seems to respect the CB position a lot. That is why Law got a huge deal and Samual was franchised.

    [/QUOTE]

    Samuel was franchised because we had no alternative and it was a peak year of his prime

    BB didnt give Law a contract, he signed a 6 or 7 year extension I believe in 99 by pete Carroll which made him the highest paid CB in the league.

     BB let him walk a year too early, but better then the 40 million he would have got and a few years of declined play. Another classic example of a great general manager doing what gives the team the best chance to win, both short term and long term.

     While Talib is  still a good corner, he has been getting chewed up in quite a few games. Oh, and we were 5th in the league in sacks this year. Talib has a very good pass rush, so is he over rated?

    Last thought, every GM misses, and when you have had the most picks in the league over a 13 year period, you will miss more then others, but the talent he has put together on this team while paying a HOF QB top 3 QB money for 10 years and drafting in the bottom of most rounds, is amazing work. Not too mention some of the best trades in NFL history in Moss, WW, and Dillion.

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from ccnsd. Show ccnsd's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

    In response to ccnsd's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    If a team is dumb enough to give Edelman a big contract then TJ Moe might step in and catch a 100 balls next year, or Danny! 

    VW will be Ted Washington part 2. He will gain 30 pounds, become a 400 pound immovable object amd anchor the defense for another Super Bowl after we win this 1! All after taking a home town discount to the team that made him the highest paid d linemen at 1 point!

    Talib has graded out at a negative rating in almost every game since his return from injur courtesy of profootballfocus, but he will still get a 4 year 25 mill deal from the jets after they cut cromartie and his 13 million dollar cap number next year(lol)  He had a -3.1 in pass coverage against the bills as their back up qb tore him up. we drafted Talibs replacement in Ryan, and we will draft another cb next year,  as corners are no longer worth the big contracts in this NFL. See Samuels, Bodden, cromartie, namde, revis, etc.....



    The only ratings I truly trust ae those from the coaching staff since they know the players responsibilities.  Belichick cut Bodden mid seasan with no great loss and apparently he was one of the best cornerbacks in the NFL according to one of these rating sites (so says Rusty).

    I am very skeptical on non baseball metrics. I call it the Bobby Orr effect. Whoever was Bobby Orr's defensive linemate was usually ranked in the top 5 of +/- almost every year back in the day. Defensive backs with a good pass rush are always overrated and those with a bad pass rush are usually underrated. Since Talib arrived the Pats pass defense has improved statistically as well as improved from the eye test standpoint.

    If Belichick offers Talib a good contract (even if it is refused) that will show me how good Talib was this year. I don't think Belichick is a great GM (a very good one with some bad years) but i do think he knows football as well as anyone in the league and he seems to respect the CB position a lot. That is why Law got a huge deal and Samual was franchised.

    [/QUOTE]

    Samuel was franchised because we had no alternative and it was a peak year of his prime

    BB didnt give Law a contract, he signed a 6 or 7 year extension I believe in 99 by pete Carroll which made him the highest paid CB in the league.

     BB let him walk a year too early, but better then the 40 million he would have got and a few years of declined play. Another classic example of a great general manager doing what gives the team the best chance to win, both short term and long term.

     While Talib is  still a good corner, he has been getting chewed up in quite a few games. Oh, and we were 5th in the league in sacks this year. Talib has a very good pass rush, so is he over rated?

    Last thought, every GM misses, and when you have had the most picks in the league over a 13 year period, you will miss more then others, but the talent he has put together on this team while paying a HOF QB top 3 QB money for 10 years and drafting in the bottom of most rounds, is amazing work. Not too mention some of the best trades in NFL history in Moss, WW, and Dillion.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Didn't critcize BB at all in my post and apparently I have been giving him credit for years on the Ty Law deal when it was the previous regime. I did disagree with cutting Law but it got personal so water under the bridge (though watching Ellis Hobbs play makes me think the letting them go early theory did not work out with Law who seemed to have 3 decent years left in him). My main point is the non baseball metrics. I don't trust them at all. The other sports are too team oriented to truly trust individual grades. How many times have we seen a db chasing a receiver into the endzone and you assume it's his fault and then you see the replay and you realize that db is actually hustling their rear end off trying to cover for someone else's screw up (Seahawks game last year). For years the NBA stat guru at ESPN had Dwight Howard as the best player in the NBA according to his metrics. No one believes that now after last year ( he also rated McGrady better than Kobe Bryant back in the early 2000's).

    Respecting a CB and his value does not mean you have to be as dumb as the Eagles wasting huge salary cap space on CB's. It is about finding a good one and giving them a reasonable contract before everyone else realizes how good they are. Belichick did this for Welker (WR not a CB of course) in 2007 and it was brilliant he definately missed it on Woodhead and Edleman last year who are having great seasons this year for NFL peanuts. If Belichick offers Talib a good contract this year we will know how good he played. If he lets him go for nothing then you are right and he probably had a bad second half. Other than the Browns and Panthers game I don't recall myself saying once Talib played bad. It seems most teams avoid him but since I really don't know what is expected of him I can't tell how good a year he is having. I don't see CB's as being something you can play "money ball" with. Same with left tackles and QB's. They are always overpaid because there are not enough good ones to go around.

    I personally am not convinced the Pats have a great pass rush. I am no expert so I will not compare coverage sacks with other sacks but I would say hurries are more important than sacks. I don't know where the Pats rank on QB pressure but they seem better than last year with my eye test but without the facts i can't comment. On one thread someone pointed out the Pats had more sacks in 2013 than 2003 and 2004 and I will not believe this team has a better pass rush than those teams did. Getting 3 and outs reduces your chances at sacks but like I said since I don't have the complete facts I do not feel comfortable arguing either way.

     
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