EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from joepatsfan111111. Show joepatsfan111111's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    [/QUOTE]

    Samuel was franchised because we had no alternative and it was a peak year of his prime

    BB didnt give Law a contract, he signed a 6 or 7 year extension I believe in 99 by pete Carroll which made him the highest paid CB in the league.

     BB let him walk a year too early, but better then the 40 million he would have got and a few years of declined play. Another classic example of a great general manager doing what gives the team the best chance to win, both short term and long term.

     While Talib is  still a good corner, he has been getting chewed up in quite a few games. Oh, and we were 5th in the league in sacks this year. Talib has a very good pass rush, so is he over rated?

    Last thought, every GM misses, and when you have had the most picks in the league over a 13 year period, you will miss more then others, but the talent he has put together on this team while paying a HOF QB top 3 QB money for 10 years and drafting in the bottom of most rounds, is amazing work. Not too mention some of the best trades in NFL history in Moss, WW, and Dillion.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    great post truechamp but the only thing I'll disagree with is the answer to your question is talib overrated. he is not. he isnt the same player as he was weeks 1-6 but he is slowly but surely working his way back to it. he looked good v. Baltimore and i didnt hear his named called in the Miami or Buffalo game meaning ehe was shut down. Now Gordon killed him but that was his worst game and i think he'd be first to admit that. I think if Talib can stay healthy these next few, hopefully few, games we can advance with him at his week 1-6 self.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to joepatsfan111111's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    [/QUOTE]

    Samuel was franchised because we had no alternative and it was a peak year of his prime

    BB didnt give Law a contract, he signed a 6 or 7 year extension I believe in 99 by pete Carroll which made him the highest paid CB in the league.

     BB let him walk a year too early, but better then the 40 million he would have got and a few years of declined play. Another classic example of a great general manager doing what gives the team the best chance to win, both short term and long term.

     While Talib is  still a good corner, he has been getting chewed up in quite a few games. Oh, and we were 5th in the league in sacks this year. Talib has a very good pass rush, so is he over rated?

    Last thought, every GM misses, and when you have had the most picks in the league over a 13 year period, you will miss more then others, but the talent he has put together on this team while paying a HOF QB top 3 QB money for 10 years and drafting in the bottom of most rounds, is amazing work. Not too mention some of the best trades in NFL history in Moss, WW, and Dillion.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    great post truechamp but the only thing I'll disagree with is the answer to your question is talib overrated. he is not. he isnt the same player as he was weeks 1-6 but he is slowly but surely working his way back to it. he looked good v. Baltimore and i didnt hear his named called in the Miami or Buffalo game meaning ehe was shut down. Now Gordon killed him but that was his worst game and i think he'd be first to admit that. I think if Talib can stay healthy these next few, hopefully few, games we can advance with him at his week 1-6 self.

    [/QUOTE]

    No, I wasn't saying he was overrated, the poster said, cbs with a great pass rush are overrated and cbs with a bad pass rush are underrated which is way too big of a blanket statement in the 1st place, but also kind of contradicted what his point was. So, I asked him to explain what he meant.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from joepatsfan111111. Show joepatsfan111111's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     While Talib is  still a good corner, he has been getting chewed up in quite a few games. Oh, and we were 5th in the league in sacks this year. Talib has a very good pass rush, so is he over rated?

    [/QUOTE]

    great post truechamp but the only thing I'll disagree with is the answer to your question is talib overrated. he is not.

    [/QUOTE]

    No, I wasn't saying he was overrated, the poster said, cbs with a great pass rush are overrated and cbs with a bad pass rush are underrated which is way too big of a blanket statement in the 1st place, but also kind of contradicted what his point was. So, I asked him to explain what he meant.

    [/QUOTE]

    I know, I tried not to say you said that. I said to answer your question is Talib overrated. Its all good, I understood what you were doing!

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from ccnsd. Show ccnsd's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to joepatsfan111111's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    [/QUOTE]

    Samuel was franchised because we had no alternative and it was a peak year of his prime

    BB didnt give Law a contract, he signed a 6 or 7 year extension I believe in 99 by pete Carroll which made him the highest paid CB in the league.

     BB let him walk a year too early, but better then the 40 million he would have got and a few years of declined play. Another classic example of a great general manager doing what gives the team the best chance to win, both short term and long term.

     While Talib is  still a good corner, he has been getting chewed up in quite a few games. Oh, and we were 5th in the league in sacks this year. Talib has a very good pass rush, so is he over rated?

    Last thought, every GM misses, and when you have had the most picks in the league over a 13 year period, you will miss more then others, but the talent he has put together on this team while paying a HOF QB top 3 QB money for 10 years and drafting in the bottom of most rounds, is amazing work. Not too mention some of the best trades in NFL history in Moss, WW, and Dillion.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    great post truechamp but the only thing I'll disagree with is the answer to your question is talib overrated. he is not. he isnt the same player as he was weeks 1-6 but he is slowly but surely working his way back to it. he looked good v. Baltimore and i didnt hear his named called in the Miami or Buffalo game meaning ehe was shut down. Now Gordon killed him but that was his worst game and i think he'd be first to admit that. I think if Talib can stay healthy these next few, hopefully few, games we can advance with him at his week 1-6 self.

    [/QUOTE]

    No, I wasn't saying he was overrated, the poster said, cbs with a great pass rush are overrated and cbs with a bad pass rush are underrated which is way too big of a blanket statement in the 1st place, but also kind of contradicted what his point was. So, I asked him to explain what he meant.

    [/QUOTE]

    I think it's obvious. A great pass rush means QB's throw more passes under duress which tends to affect accuracy which makes CB's stats appear better. Weak pass rushes force the CB's to cover longer. I believe if given enough time a good receiver will get open more often than not. QB's and RB's with great offensive lines have it easier than those with poor ones.  I think it's self evident but apparently it wasn't. Being a CB on the 1985 Bears is not nearly as hard as being a CB on the 2011 Patriots (though Leslie Frazier may have ended up being an eventual pro bowler if he hadn't of gotten hurt). An extreme example but an obvious one. McCourty may have had a long career as a CB on those Bears teams.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to ccnsd's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to joepatsfan111111's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    [/QUOTE]

    Samuel was franchised because we had no alternative and it was a peak year of his prime

    BB didnt give Law a contract, he signed a 6 or 7 year extension I believe in 99 by pete Carroll which made him the highest paid CB in the league.

     BB let him walk a year too early, but better then the 40 million he would have got and a few years of declined play. Another classic example of a great general manager doing what gives the team the best chance to win, both short term and long term.

     While Talib is  still a good corner, he has been getting chewed up in quite a few games. Oh, and we were 5th in the league in sacks this year. Talib has a very good pass rush, so is he over rated?

    Last thought, every GM misses, and when you have had the most picks in the league over a 13 year period, you will miss more then others, but the talent he has put together on this team while paying a HOF QB top 3 QB money for 10 years and drafting in the bottom of most rounds, is amazing work. Not too mention some of the best trades in NFL history in Moss, WW, and Dillion.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    great post truechamp but the only thing I'll disagree with is the answer to your question is talib overrated. he is not. he isnt the same player as he was weeks 1-6 but he is slowly but surely working his way back to it. he looked good v. Baltimore and i didnt hear his named called in the Miami or Buffalo game meaning ehe was shut down. Now Gordon killed him but that was his worst game and i think he'd be first to admit that. I think if Talib can stay healthy these next few, hopefully few, games we can advance with him at his week 1-6 self.

    [/QUOTE]

    No, I wasn't saying he was overrated, the poster said, cbs with a great pass rush are overrated and cbs with a bad pass rush are underrated which is way too big of a blanket statement in the 1st place, but also kind of contradicted what his point was. So, I asked him to explain what he meant.

    [/QUOTE]

    I think it's obvious. A great pass rush means QB's throw more passes under duress which tends to affect accuracy which makes CB's stats appear better. Weak pass rushes force the CB's to cover longer. I believe if given enough time a good receiver will get open more often than not. QB's and RB's with great offensive lines have it easier than those with poor ones.  I think it's self evident but apparently it wasn't. Being a CB on the 1985 Bears is not nearly as hard as being a CB on the 2011 Patriots (though Leslie Frazier may have ended up being an eventual pro bowler if he hadn't of gotten hurt). An extreme example but an obvious one. McCourty may have had a long career as a CB on those Bears teams.

    [/QUOTE]

    Sooo do you think Talib is overrated because of our great pass rush?

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

    In response to joepatsfan111111's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     While Talib is  still a good corner, he has been getting chewed up in quite a few games. Oh, and we were 5th in the league in sacks this year. Talib has a very good pass rush, so is he over rated?

    [/QUOTE]

    great post truechamp but the only thing I'll disagree with is the answer to your question is talib overrated. he is not.

    [/QUOTE]

    No, I wasn't saying he was overrated, the poster said, cbs with a great pass rush are overrated and cbs with a bad pass rush are underrated which is way too big of a blanket statement in the 1st place, but also kind of contradicted what his point was. So, I asked him to explain what he meant.

    [/QUOTE]

    I know, I tried not to say you said that. I said to answer your question is Talib overrated. Its all good, I understood what you were doing!

    [/QUOTE]

    Gotcha

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from ccnsd. Show ccnsd's posts

    Re: EDELMAN or TALIB, if you could only take ONE?

     

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

    In response to ccnsd's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to joepatsfan111111's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]



    Samuel was franchised because we had no alternative and it was a peak year of his prime

    BB didnt give Law a contract, he signed a 6 or 7 year extension I believe in 99 by pete Carroll which made him the highest paid CB in the league.

     BB let him walk a year too early, but better then the 40 million he would have got and a few years of declined play. Another classic example of a great general manager doing what gives the team the best chance to win, both short term and long term.

     While Talib is  still a good corner, he has been getting chewed up in quite a few games. Oh, and we were 5th in the league in sacks this year. Talib has a very good pass rush, so is he over rated?

    Last thought, every GM misses, and when you have had the most picks in the league over a 13 year period, you will miss more then others, but the talent he has put together on this team while paying a HOF QB top 3 QB money for 10 years and drafting in the bottom of most rounds, is amazing work. Not too mention some of the best trades in NFL history in Moss, WW, and Dillion.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    great post truechamp but the only thing I'll disagree with is the answer to your question is talib overrated. he is not. he isnt the same player as he was weeks 1-6 but he is slowly but surely working his way back to it. he looked good v. Baltimore and i didnt hear his named called in the Miami or Buffalo game meaning ehe was shut down. Now Gordon killed him but that was his worst game and i think he'd be first to admit that. I think if Talib can stay healthy these next few, hopefully few, games we can advance with him at his week 1-6 self.

    [/QUOTE]

    No, I wasn't saying he was overrated, the poster said, cbs with a great pass rush are overrated and cbs with a bad pass rush are underrated which is way too big of a blanket statement in the 1st place, but also kind of contradicted what his point was. So, I asked him to explain what he meant.

    [/QUOTE]

    I think it's obvious. A great pass rush means QB's throw more passes under duress which tends to affect accuracy which makes CB's stats appear better. Weak pass rushes force the CB's to cover longer. I believe if given enough time a good receiver will get open more often than not. QB's and RB's with great offensive lines have it easier than those with poor ones.  I think it's self evident but apparently it wasn't. Being a CB on the 1985 Bears is not nearly as hard as being a CB on the 2011 Patriots (though Leslie Frazier may have ended up being an eventual pro bowler if he hadn't of gotten hurt). An extreme example but an obvious one. McCourty may have had a long career as a CB on those Bears teams.

    [/QUOTE]

    Sooo do you think Talib is overrated because of our great pass rush?

    [/QUOTE]

    I never said the Pats have a great pass rush this is what I said:

    I personally am not convinced the Pats have a great pass rush. I am no expert so I will not compare coverage sacks with other sacks but I would say hurries are more important than sacks. I don't know where the Pats rank on QB pressure but they seem better than last year with my eye test but without the facts i can't comment. On one thread someone pointed out the Pats had more sacks in 2013 than 2003 and 2004 and I will not believe this team has a better pass rush than those teams did. Getting 3 and outs reduces your chances at sacks but like I said since I don't have the complete facts I do not feel comfortable arguing either way.

    Talib played good last year without a great pass rush and this year he appears, to me at least, to be playing good overall except against the Panthers and the Browns. I saw him make two open field tackles against the Bills running backs a week ago which makes me think he is a better run stopper than some other corner's we have. I don't have access to game film and even if I did I wouldn't know how to judge it. They have played him hurt over healthier back ups so he must be doing something right out there. Remember Al Sims of the Bruins (probably not) but he once had a +/- of 64 one year in the NHL as Orr's primary line mate. Ray Bourque never got near that. Sims was an average player who had a flukey amazing  stat line because of his team mates one year. Dallas Smith had some great +/-'s also with Orr but he was actually a good player. Twenty years later Sims might have made millions off of that number. Context is everything with stats. As has been pointed out to you repeatedly the Giants had a worse pass/run balance then the Pats in 2011 and they won the super bowl and as you know the Ravens were more pass happy percentage wise than the Pats last year also yet they won the super bowl.

     

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