ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

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    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLGIxMaca9o

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1q3ubEX1jk&feature=PlayList&p=BC9433FC5F6599D9&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=21



    These will tell you why Marvin should be considered best.  It's not just go routes and throw it up to the tallest/biggest person with the longest/strongest arms and the highest jumping ability.  And that is not to demean Moss.  His genetic gifts make him one of the best.  But that is not all a receiver is. 

    These show Harrison's route running, Harrison's body control, Harrison's hands, his running ability after the catch, his field awareness.  The truth is (and all belichick fans should appreciate this) Harrison's desire to stay out of the media spotlight limited his exposure significantly.  Could you imagine how great people would say he was if he acted like T.O. has throughout his career or how Moss did earlier in his career? 

    We are both very fortunate.  I just believe that when you are talking about receivers and you combine all of the skill sets, Harrison comes out on top. 
     
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    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8HijFRcC9E

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8wMwXz-5g4

    These will tell you why TO and Randy should be considered best.  It's not just sideline routes and throw it to the fastest receiver who catches the safety flatfooted.  And that is not to demean Harrison.  His speed and catching ability make him one of the best.  But that is not all a receiver is. 
     
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    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    HARRISON HAS MADE EVERY SPECTACULAR CATCH POSSIBLE UNLESS THEY REQUIRED HIM TO BE 6'4" WITH LONG ARMS.  YOUR T.O. COMMENT IS ABOUT SIZE, TOO.  SO, HOW DID I READ INTO THIS ANALOGY?  THESE ARE YOUR WORDS.   

    I didn't mention size at all. Sure, size helps, but we are not "prorating" production here. Otherwise a guy like Welker should get eight points for a TD instead of six! For whatever reason, Moss and TO seem to catch a lot of balls other receivers can't. This is a simple fact, your argument is foolish.
    BUT THE FACT IS, THE ONLY CATCHES THEY MAKE THAT HARRISON DOESN'T ARE THE ONES THAT THEIR SIZE ALLOWS.  THE TRUTH IS THERE ARE PLENTY OF CATCHES THAT HARRISON MAKES THAT THEY CANNOT THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SIZE.  I AM NOT DISREGARDING IT BUT THERE IS MORE TO BEING A RECEIVER THAN SIZE.  WELKER HAS PROVED THAT. 

    SINCE 1999 THE COLTS O HAS BEEN OUT OF THE TOP 5 IN SCORING JUST TWICE.  BUT YOU ARE PRAISING SCORING IN THE ABSENCE OF OTHER PRODUCTION.

    The debate here is not the Colts offense against any other offense. It is one player against another. And the fact remains, both Moss and TO have had more TDs in less games played. Again, you are trying to twist the facts to favor your opinion.
    SO THEY HAVE A FEW MORE TOUCHDOWNS, AND WHAT HAS THAT PRODUCED FOR THEM?  I AM NOT TWISTING ANYTHING, I AM SIMPLY POINTING OUT THAT HARRISON DID NOT NEED TO BE THE ONLY SOURCE OF POINTS FOR THE COLTS LIKE MOSS AND OWENS MAY HAVE BEEN.  THE COLTS OVERALL POINT PRODUCTION IS EVIDENCE OF THAT.  NO TWISTING SIMPLY JUSTIFYING MY POSITION. 

    WHY IS THE PER GAME STAT MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE OVERALL STAT?  .8 CATCHES PER GAME PRODUCED A 150 CATCH DIFFERENTIAL.  OVER TIME ITS SIGNIFICANT.

    This is merely a reference point. Since Marvin has .8 more catches a game, it suggests that Peyton throws to him a greater percentage of the time (a stat it would be next to impossible to verify). Yet with less catches per game they have put up comparable numbers, and more TDs. The rec/TD ratio tells more, IMO.
    BUT MORE CATCHES PER GAME IN NO WAY SUGGESTS MORE BALLS THROWN TO SAID RECEIVER.  THIS IS A BIASED RATIONALIZATION WITH NO BASIS IN FACT.  THESE GUYS CATCH MORE TD'S/CATCH BECAUSE OF THEIR SIZE ALONE.  IT'S NO DIFFERENT THAN WILL PERDUE GETTING MORE REBOUNDS PER GAME THAN MICHAEL JORDAN SIMPLY BECAUSE HE IS BIGGER, BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE PERDUE BETTER THAN JORDAN.  IN FACT, THE NUMBER OF TD'S HARRISON HAS IN SPITE OF HIS SIZE MAKES HIS PRODUCTION THAT MUCH MORE AMAZING.  WES WELKER HAD ONLY 8 TD'S IN '07 BUT HE WAS EASILY AS VALUABLE AS MOSS. 

    AS FOR THE PLAYOFFS, NONE OF THESE GUYS HAS SET THE WORLD ON FIRE

    Moss has had one of the most productive postseason careers at WR. TO would have won the MVP in SB 39 had the Eagles won (10 rec/120+ yds), playing on a broken ankle. Harrison has been average at best in the postseason (and that's being kind to him). This would suggest that both Moss and Owens are able to perform better against the best defenses in the league.
    IN 11 PLAYOFF GAMES, RANDY MOSS HAS HAD ONLY 2 WITH MORE THAN 5 CATCHES AND ONLY 2 WITH MORE THAN 100 YARDS (ONE WAS A 2 CATCH GAME).  IN NE'S 2007 SB RUN HE HAD ONLY 1 CATCH IN 2 OF THE 3 PLAYOFF GAMES.  SO MUCH FOR PRODUCTION.  AS FOR T.O. IN 11 PLAYOFF GAMES, HE HAD 4 WITH 6 OR MORE CATCHES AND 3 WITH 100+ YDS.  IN HIS LAST 2 WITH DALLAS HE HAD 2 AND 4 CATCHES RESPECTIVELY.  AS GREAT AS T.O. HAS BEEN HE HAS DROPPED MORE CRITICAL AND POTENTIALLY GAME CHANGING PASSES THAN ANY.  HE'S GREAT, BUT HE HAS PROVEN THE GOAT AS WELL.  HARRISON IN 16 GAMES HAS HAD 2 6+ CATCH GAMES AND 2 100 YD GAMES (1 ACTUALLY @ 98).  THE LAST 2 WERE CLEARLY INEFFECTIVE AS WERE HIS LAST 2 YEARS DUE TO INJURY.  I GUESS MY POINT IS YOU TAKE A GAME OR TWO AND ELEVATE OR DIMINISH THE STATUS OF A PLAYER.  BUT CONSIDERING, IN GENERAL, A CAREER, EACH HAS DIFFERENTIATING POINTS BUT HARRISON HAS MORE PRODUCTION. 


    I DO THINK MOSS HAD AN ISSUE OF BUMPING AN OFFICER WITH HIS CAR.  NOT SURE WHERE THAT COMPARES TO FIREARMS, BUT ASSAULTING A POLICE OFFICER WITH A CAR IS AN ISSUE.

    Randy bumped a meter maid out of the way without causing any injury. Marvin was caught with a handgun that was used in a shooting. You figure it out. Unless maybe you think jaywalkers should be doing hard time in prison along with rapists and murderers, the answer should be obvious...even to a stubborn Colts fan!!!
    HARRISON HAS NOT PLAYED THE CANCER ROLE IN HIS CAREER.  HE HAS NOT BEEN CHARGED WITH ANYTHING.  MAYBE IF THE VICTIM HADN'T GIVEN MULTIPLE STORIES ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED, WE ALL MIGHT KNOW A LITTLE MORE ABOUT THE TRUTH.  AS FOR MOSS, IT WAS A TRAFFIC COP, BUT REGARDLESS I DID NOT KNOW THERE WAS A DISTINCTION BETWEEN WHO WAS AN OFFICER AND WHO WAS NOT.  THE POINT OF THE MOSS THING WAS THAT IT WASN'T UNINTENTIONAL. 

    I NEVER SAID THAT HOLT'S STATS DO NOT COMPARE, PLEASE DON'T PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH. 

    OK, those were my own words. You did claim you had no problem with leaving Holt out of the conversation, but not Harrison. That's what I was referring to.
    HERE IS WHAT I SAID EXACTLY, "If you want to make a case for Moss in front of Holt, fine.  THAT GIVES UP NOTHING, BUT SUGGESTS YOU CAN ARGUE THE POINT.  AGAIN, HOLT HAS A RING, MOSS AND TO DO NOT.

    WINS AND LOSSES, PARTICULARLY IN THE POSTSEASON ARE ALMOST ALWAYS TEAM ORIENTED.  RARELY DOES ONE SINGLE PERSON DOMINATE A GAME.

    Again, we are not debating wins and losses here, but player to player. I'm looking at the individual performances. And IMO both Moss and Owens are head and shoulders above Harrison in postseason play.
    WHY NOT DEBATE WINS AND LOSSES.  IT IS ALWAYS WHAT I GET FROM PATS FANS WHEN ARGUING BRADY VS. MANNING.  THIS IS WHERE I USUALLY END UP HAVING A PROBLEM WITH PATS FANS.  THE STANDARDS FOR ARGUING CHANGE WHEN THE PERSONNEL CHANGES.  AS FOR THE POSTSEASON PLAY, I THINK I HAVE PROVEN TO THE CONTRARY.  BESIDES, POSTSEASON PLAY ALONE DOES NOT A CAREER MAKE.   

    AS FOR THE AFCCG WAS THAT THE TY LAW HUMPING MARVIN HARRISON AT THE LINE OF SCRIMMAGE GAME.  WAS THAT THE GAME?  THAT WAS ALSO THE COLTS D THAT RANKED 20 IN SCORING IN THE LEAGUE. 

    Again with the excuses! Yet you scoff at us here when we point out that three years later half the Patriots starting defense was sick and unable to stay on the field when the Colts made their comeback in the second half! The WRs should have seen how the refs were calling the game and adjusted to it. That is what championship caliber teams do. Those who can't cut it simply whine to the competition committee! And again, please tell me how the Colts defense caused Manning to throw four INTs! Were they on the sidelines distracting the WRs when the ball was about to reach them? I'm still not getting your point on this. And after that season Polian had the "point of emphasis" brought up. Yet the following year (when the Colts offense was #1, Manning threw for 49 TDs, and they hung almost 50 on the Broncos the previous week) Manning failed to get the ball in the end zone in a 20-3 loss in Foxboro. And with a good defensive showing for the Colts, at halftime the Patriots had only managed two FGs. Who gets thrown under the bus for that one? I know, Clark dropped a couple passes!
    YOU CALL IT AN EXCUSE.  WHEN THE LEAGUE AGREES THAT THE RULES WERE NOT ENFORCED PROPERLY, I CALL IT A REASON.  AS FOR THE D, THE POINT IS THAT MANNING COULD NOT RELY ON THEM AND HAD TO TRY TO CREATE OFFENSE. 

    AT ANY RATE, IT SEEMS THAT YOU RECALL ALL OF MANNING'S BAD GAMES BUT FORGET HIS GOOD ONES (OR AT LEAST DOWNPLAY THEM).  I WOULD EXPECT NOTHING LESS. 

    I'm not downplaying or forgetting anything. The simple fact is that if you look at Brady's body of work you will see he has been consistent in postseason play. When you look at Manning's you will see he has had some of his worst performances in January. Sure, he had some very good ones against the Broncos and the Chiefs (the first time around). But in two of his sixteen playoff games he had a passer rating in the 30s. It seems that the general public agrees with me on this debate, as it was Brady, not Manning, who got the nod for QB of the decade.
    I'M NOT SUGGESTING BRADY DOES NOT DESERVE THIS, BUT I STAND BY MY POSITION.  I WAS MERELY USING THE COMMENT TO MAKE A BROADER POINT ABOUT HARRISON.  BUT WHERE THE BRADY/MANNING DEBATE STANDS, I AM COMFORTABLE WITH MY ARGUEMENT.  BRADY HAS BENEFITTED OVER HIS CAREER FROM A BETTER DEFENSE THAN MANNING (PARTICULARLY IN THE PLAYOFFS).  THAT HAS GIVEN HIM THE LUXERY OF PLAYING A MORE CONSERVATIVE/EASIER BRAND OF GAME MANAGEMENT THAN MANNING HAS BEEN ALLOWED.  I CLEARLY ACCEPT THAT THIS SOUNDS LIKE AN EXCUSE TO ALL PATS FANS, SO I DON'T EXPECT ANY BUY IN,  BUT IT IS, AND HAS BEEN MY PERSPECTIVE FOR QUITE SOME TIME.  THERE IS NO WAY TO KNOW WHETHER OR NOT MANNING WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER IF HIS DEFENSE WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER, BUT I AM OF THE IMPRESSION THAT HE WOULD.  
     
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    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    In Response to Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM:
    [QUOTE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8HijFRcC9E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8wMwXz-5g4 These will tell you why TO and Randy should be considered best.  It's not just sideline routes and throw it to the fastest receiver who catches the safety flatfooted.  And that is not to demean Harrison.  His speed and catching ability make him one of the best.  But that is not all a receiver is. 
    Posted by themightypatriots[/QUOTE]

    Mighty -

    Owens' video showed me nothing except that he could out run linebackers and out muscle dbs.  Owens is not known as a good route runner.  Owens is known to frequently drop balls.  If Owens was so great, why is he now on his 4th team after leaving 3 successful ones with good QB's. 

    I love Randy Moss.  He not only has size (not as heavy as owens) and speed, but he has great hands and can run a route. 

    Including Harrison, all of these guys are fast, so throw speed out.  Sideline routes are important.  If neither Owens nor Moss can run these because they don't have the body control of harrison, that is one up on Harrison.  Additionally, Harrison did not catch Safeties and Corners flatfooted, he created that.  Moss does some of this but not to the same effectiveness as harrison. 

    Here is a point.  Harrison does both what Welker has done and Moss has done.  Moss and Welker are 2 very different receivers, but Harrison has shown the ability to do what both of them have done.  Long and short passes.  In and out of traffic. 

    This is why harrison is the best receiver of the past decade. 
     
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    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    I'm pretty sure that Moss never had Peyton as his QB in Oakland. Had he been teamed with Brady since 2001 he would easily have numbers more comparable to Harrison and even Jerry Rice than he currently has, however, I do see your point that Moss isn't it slot guy like Welker is and Harrison was at times. Moss is a better deep man than Harrison was or ever will be. You ask scouts and they will tell you that, aside from Fitzgerald, Moss is the most talented receiver in the NFL. He can read coverages and relay them to his QB at the line of scimmage before the play (eg: very smart). Moss destroyed a record previously held by Jerry Rice and you will not find anyone, outside of Indiana, who will tell you that Harrison is a better WR than Rice. Harrison/Manning had better secondary targets than Moss ever had during his time in Oakland (forever henceforth referred to as the lost years). It's all moot. TO, Harrison, Moss. Fitzgerald is the best right now. Period.
     
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    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    Well, once again we have come to a stalemate. I don't have time now to adress everything line by line. Truly, a valid argument can be made for all three of these guys. The one point I will elaborate on is this; the production vs. W-L thing. In this debate we are discussing individual players at a common position. This is why I choose to use production. For a WR can have a great game, yet still not come out on the winning end (i.e. Owens in SB 39, and more recently Larry F. in this year's big game). As for the Brady/Manning issue, it has been two different debates. One was who was the best ever (or even of "this decade"). In this discussion surely winning games is of greater importance than stats. Marino and Favre both have huge numbers as QBs, yet I do not consider them in the top five. And though both Manning and Brady have the best W-L record (though Peyton has the edge in stats), Brady's better performance overall in the postseason is the clincher, IMO. The second was which QB would you want to build a team around. This has to take the intangibles to a higher level of consideration. Again, though both would be considered "can't miss" prospects for this purpose, Brady again gets the edge for the postseason. As for Manning being handicapped by his defense, I could turn it around as well. Even if he had to "try harder" to win a game, the facts are that he has tried and failed moreso than Brady has. And if you want to claim the Colts defense as a handicap, I'd say the quality of Brady's weapons need also be considered. Manning has had Harrison and Wayne for years, while Brady has won with the likes of Troy Brown, David Patten, David Givens, Deion Branch, and Reche Caldwell. The only RB he's ever had comparable to Edge or Addai was Corey Dillon. We could go on for months with this debate and come no nearer to any conclusion. I suppose you have the one edge (if it can be called that) as ESPN is on your side...for whatever reason. We won't come to any agreement here, and that's alright. It was a good debate. We both (all) are lucky to have such quality players on our teams. I can only imagine how good Brady's numbers would be had Moss been here from the beginning. I'm sure these same discussions will be had many years into the future. That is a testament to the greatness of all these guys, and all (with the exception maybe of Owens) should someday have a bronze bust in Canton!
     
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    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    Bub - But then Harrison has produced more catches ,more first downs, and nearly as many touchdowns. 

    By the same token over the career, I can point to Manning's production which far outweighs the production of Brady. 

    For Moss or Owens there is not significant other production in the playoffs beyond Harrison which is your arguement for Brady against Manning.  I argue that Brady's wins have as much to do with his defensive help as anything.  You don't buy it. 

    For Moss and Owens fewer catches in total may mean less ability to get open in the open field, but when near the goal line, just throw it higher than anyone else can get to.  Not a knock against them, but there is more to being a receiver than simply being taller and able to jump higher than your competition.  Per one of your arguements (which I discounted) you said more catches meant more passes thrown to; by the same token I could say more touchdowns means more passes thrown to in the end zone.  And I could add that for the colts throwing it to Marvin every time near the goal line was unnecessary because the colts could use other players to also score which improves efficiency and productivity overall.  Ultimately, it is not at all a slight to Harrison because his numbers speak for themselves, but that the colts had an offense efficient enough to produce in a number of different ways.   

    As for the brady manning thing, another writer asked who would you want at QB this year and Manning was the pick. 

    Yes Manning may have had to try harder, and if you agree to that then simply measuring success rate doesn't tell the whole story.  In Seinfeld, Kramer was the best Karate student in his class.  Jerry and George were impressed until they saw that all his classmates were 12.  The comparison becomes apples and oranges. 

    I'd say Manning wins just as frequently with Brady's weapons vice versa.  And I would agree we are both fortunate. 
     
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    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM


    Hannah - Moss does not get a pass for whining his way out of Minnesota to a worse team.  As a deep receiver, yes, Moss has been the biggest threat, mainly due to his size, speed and good hands (Owens only wishes he had hands like Moss).  But Harrison has also been one of the best deep threats.  His injury the past 2 years has stopped that, but prior to, he was a top 3 deep threat.   Additionally, he was one of the most complete receivers ever.  Moss is no smarter than Harrison ever was.   

    For much of his time in Minnesota he had Chris Carter on the other side and and good QB's to catch balls from.  Same goes for New England. 

    Again for the record, I love Randy Moss.  I'd love to have him on the colts.  But if we are measuring best receiver of the decade, there has been none better than Harrison.
     
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    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    I couldn't care less what the Crayola Patrol at ESPN thinks about anything. What I want to see is more of this . . .



    In Response to Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM:
    [QUOTE]I take cheap shots at your mother all the time, like sometimes I spit on her back so she thinks im done and then when she turns around i hit her with the money shot on her stupid face....does that count?
    Posted by MVPkilla[/QUOTE]
     
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    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    Dogg - who would you rather have had on your team all decade, Moss or Harrison?
     
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    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    There are 2 receivers on that team and I'd take them both.

     
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    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    If you had to pick one
     
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    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    In Response to Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM:
    [QUOTE]If you had to pick one
    Posted by themightypatriots[/QUOTE]

    Image Patriots Resign <b />Randy Moss</b> <b>...</b> Picture
     
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    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    In Response to Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM:
    [QUOTE]Dogg - who would you rather have had on your team all decade, Moss or Harrison?
    Posted by themightypatriots[/QUOTE]

    Of course he is going to say Marvin Harrison. According to him he's better than Moss. But I wonder how Randy's numbers would look had he been with the Colts (and Manning) for his entire career. He could very well have more than Harrison does. Better yet, if Moss had been in Foxboro since 01! In any case, the argument is truly without end. I'd like to see a poll nationwide asking who the better of the two was, in fans' opinions. You could post one here, but it would be skewed towards Moss for obvious reasons. My money would be on Randy.
     
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    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    In Response to Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM:
    [QUOTE]Hannah - Moss does not get a pass for whining his way out of Minnesota to a worse team.  As a deep receiver, yes, Moss has been the biggest threat, mainly due to his size, speed and good hands (Owens only wishes he had hands like Moss).  But Harrison has also been one of the best deep threats.  His injury the past 2 years has stopped that, but prior to, he was a top 3 deep threat.   Additionally, he was one of the most complete receivers ever.  Moss is no smarter than Harrison ever was.    For much of his time in Minnesota he had Chris Carter on the other side and and good QB's to catch balls from.  Same goes for New England.  Again for the record, I love Randy Moss.  I'd love to have him on the colts.  But if we are measuring best receiver of the decade, there has been none better than Harrison.
    Posted by underdogg[/QUOTE]
    I thought we had an understanding, but apparently not.  I have no problem with FACT BASED OPINIONS, however, many of your posts are filled with blatant LIES.  For the record, you don't LOVE Randy Moss, none of us really do.  I do, however, have MUCH respect for him as a person and as a  player.  I'm a fan of both Marvin and Randy, but I'm not foolish enough not to be able to distinguish between the skill and artistry levels of each individually.  Since Syracuse, Marvin has been a supreme route runner who works primarily  out of the slot.  This is done to BEST utilize his skill set.  He runs slants, skinny posts, outs, z's, corners etc... Never, and I repeat, NEVER, (maybe highschool) did he face a defense designed to stop SOLEY him.  This fact alone speaks volumes.  The NFL 31 other "braintrusts" didn't feel his skillset required "Marvin Specific" gameplanning.  He may have had a safety shade his way if he appeared to be coming his direction, but that's about it.  He has fantastic hands, supreme intelligence, work ethic, and unparalled communication with his QB. Randy Moss changed the game in a way that no other WR since Bob Hayes did.  I'd venture to say that the only player in recent history to have that kind of impact of coaching was Barry Sanders. Everyone must've forgot just what this man has done throught his career.  You remember the questionable things, but easily forgot the plethora of football wizardry he's left for us ponder.  YOUTUBE is loaded with his highlights.  People say he only runs deep.  Not true, but even if it was, these proves his superiority without a doubt.  If all he does is ONE thing, why can't 2 to 3 escorts stop him.  Seriously, anyone who actually has doubt about what I'm saying, simply look for yourself.  Each TD shows a number of defenders (those directly responsible for him) lying in his wake.  Some say he doesn't go across the middle.  Early in his career, the majority of his long touchdown with extensive YAC are slants, crossing patterns, and WR screens.  He dominated those also.  The overwhelming majority of this past coaches and teammates have attested to his work ethic and superior knowledge of the game.  It's been said that he's had an advantage with superior QB's. From 1998 thru 2006 the list of his QB's was as follows:  Jay Fiedler, Brad Johnson, Randal Cunningham, Jeff George, Daunte Culpepper, Todd Bouman, Bubby Brister (that's right), Spergon Wynn, Gus Ferotte, Aaron Brooks, Marquis Tuiasosopo, Andrew Walter, and Kerry Collins.  With the exception of Randal Cunningham, I'd say they're pretty pedestrian by most standards.  Rice had Montana, Young, and the entire 49er machine, Marvin had Peyton, and the Colts machine, Tory had the "greatest show on turf" and Moss had running back by committee (everywhere), The RAIDERS (nuff said), and now, simply the BEST.  With the "BEST" he's helped rewrite the record books.  This controversy is actually the best thing that could've happened to the Patriots.  The Patriot fans will have a front row seat the the greatest display the NFL has every seen from a WR.  Those who passed on him in the draft, paid for it.  Those who doubt him now even after the past 2 seasons, only fuel his fire.  I for one, can't wait to see the "return of the SUPER FREAK".  I'm calling my shot right now, 30+ TD's for Moss, 60+ TD's for Brady and finally the BEST WR in NFL history will get his SuperBowl ring...
     
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    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    Plain - you seem pretty proud of yourself.  You speak opinion as if it were fact, and I just can't let that go.  so Moss has had 15 QB's in 9 years, all of whom have had some kind of significant game impact on his stats.  I find that difficult to believe. 

    And primarily the reason that I question is that the vast majority of Marvin Harrison's pro career has been as a wideout and NOT in the slot as you say.  He has played the slot at times, but in my opinion, only to add a wrinkle to the offensive set.  

    Keep talking loud and proud.  I think Moss is great, but this is about who has been better and in my opinion it has been Harrison.

     
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    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    I will throw Randy this bone, however.  Harrison appears to be all but done (even if Minny picks him up).  Moss seems healthy and ready for 4 more years.  If he is as productive as it appears he can be, he could prove to be better than Harrison.
     
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    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    Come on Dogg, answer my question.  If you could go back to 2000 and have your choice of either Moss or Harrison but not both for Prince Peyton to throw to all decade, whom would you choose?
     
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    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    Dogg,
    Everything I stated is based on visible evidence.  Check it out for yourself.  Marvin's position is WR but he spends a significant amount of time in the slot.  I'm not overly proud of myself.  I simply refuse to debate an issue without having facts that back my opinion.  Yes, 13 "pedestrian" QB's have had a negative impact on his statistics.  Like others have stated, if he and Brady had been together for the last 5 years, their numbers would've been astounding... Barring injury, the NFL is in for a real treat this year.  Tom's back, defense is stronger, and ESPN just poured gas on the "fire".....

     
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    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    In Response to Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM:
    [QUOTE]Come on Dogg, answer my question.  If you could go back to 2000 and have your choice of either Moss or Harrison but not both for Prince Peyton to throw to all decade, whom would you choose?
    Posted by themightypatriots[/QUOTE]

    Marv
     
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    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    plain - here is where you fail - your words - Marvin...works primarily out of the slot.  Nothing could be further from the plaintruth where the colts are concerned. 

    So, I suggest you get your facts straight first.  Cunningham, George, and Culpepper were all effective QB's for Moss during his time in Minny.  I cannot speak for this 2 years in Oakland, but he wanted out of Minny and he got it.  If he thought he was moving to a better situation (and by reports, he did), he got what he wanted. 

    I don't disagree that good players on bad teams can hurt some statistics, but some of this was self created by Moss which like it or not is a part of his legacy. 
     
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    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    I'm surprised no one has mentioned the most important reason Marvin Harrison is better than Randy Moss:

    In a pinch, Marvin would shoot you, whereas Randy would merely run you over with his car.
    Cool

     
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    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    In Response to Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM:
    [QUOTE]I'm surprised no one has mentioned the most important reason Marvin Harrison is better than Randy Moss: In a pinch, Marvin would shoot you, whereas Randy would merely run you over with his car.
    Posted by prairiemike[/QUOTE]

    Actually, Randy would only bump you with the car, then drive away!
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    In Response to Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM : Actually, Randy would only bump you with the car, then drive away!
    Posted by bubthegrub2[/QUOTE]

    and there is no guarantee that Marvin would actually shoot you, but I do understand that he has a supply of arms that he may be willing to let someone use.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rimfire. Show Rimfire's posts

    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    First, I'd like to thank everyone who has participated in this debate with such passion and civility.  It has been great to read real football discussion and not ignorant trolling. I also want to thank Underdogg for acting like true fan and for some of the best discussions on this board.  I may not always agree with everything you say, but I always feel you are worth "listening" to.

    Having said that, I have to agree with the arguments against Harrison being upon the list--although I truly feel if they included more receivers, he would definitely (and should definitely) be there.  I know this will probably sound like a "homer" response, but for me personally the critical factor is the original premise of the list--which I take to be what the different player's have actually *accomplished* in the decade, not what they might have accomplished--*if* they were taller, or *if* they had a better defense, etc.  I can also accept that since they had various differences in different accomplishments, anyone can (legitimately, if they wish) place more emphasis on some accomplishments rather than others--and as someone else noted, in that situation you will never reach a consensus.

    But one thing I think we can all agree on is that all those debated are superb athletes and we would be happy to any any of them on our teams.
     
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