ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from theplaintruth. Show theplaintruth's posts

    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    Facts:  Randal Cunningham should be considered for the Hall of Fame membership.  Unless Daunte Culpepper and Jeff George make a serious 7 yr + record breaking comebacks, they'll never make  it.  Simply put, they're not the caliber of QB the other mentioned WR's were fortunate enough to play with.  IMPACT, severe!  Your words "effective" , mine "pedestrian".  Translation, "average".  I haven't even broken down the issues of the supporting casts. For all who think Moss is a malcontent, think of the primary issues you have with "spoiled athletes".  They are MONEY, CONTRACT DISPUTES, or HOLDOUTS.  Moss has never had one.  His rookie contract in 1998 was for 1.4 million for 6 years (not 100 percent on that, but close).  Regardless of the amount, he outperformed it to the 20th power.  He never griped, demanded, performed in front of the media, threatened to holdout.  When McCombs purchased the team, he made a smart business decision and extended Moss's contract to avoid the chance of him becoming a free agent.  His displeasure with the Vikings came from internal front office issues and the effect it was having with the teams progress.  Trades, draft picks, lack of movement in free agency.  To sum it all up, going into his final year with the Vikes, they entered free agency with nearly 30 million to spend on defensive upgrades and did nothing.  That would frustrate anybody and was the root the problem in MN.  McCombs was vying for a new stadium and the State was cooperating.  Therefore, he chose not to invest in the team and give the State a winner until they gave him new digs.  After futile attempts to come to an agreement, he sold the team and promptly traded they're most valuable commodity.  At a San Antonio, TX Chamber of Commerce meeting after the sale of the Vikings, McCombs stated " How'd y'all like the way I handled that MN stadium issue?  I did them the ole "Don't Mess with Texas" way.  No new stadium, I trade away your most precious player".  Everything else was "smokescreen".  It was an example of old school "Texas Business".  Moss didn't blow up MN, Red McCombs did over the stadium issue, plain and simple.   I've already detailed the issues in Oakland (where he took a paycut to allow the signing of more players).  Furthermore, after outstanding performance in NE, he took far less money to remain where he was happiest.  Not the typical actions of the stereotypical NFL top flight WR.  Nothing Moss did had anything to do with decisions of management not to augment his teams with a better supporting cast thus affecting his legacy as a premier wideout. 
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    In Response to Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM:
    First, I'd like to thank everyone who has participated in this debate with such passion and civility.  It has been great to read real football discussion and not ignorant trolling. I also want to thank Underdogg for acting like true fan and for some of the best discussions on this board.  I may not always agree with everything you say, but I always feel you are worth "listening" to. Having said that, I have to agree with the arguments against Harrison being upon the list--although I truly feel if they included more receivers, he would definitely (and should definitely) be there.  I know this will probably sound like a "homer" response, but for me personally the critical factor is the original premise of the list--which I take to be what the different player's have actually *accomplished* in the decade, not what they might have accomplished--*if* they were taller, or *if* they had a better defense, etc.  I can also accept that since they had various differences in different accomplishments, anyone can (legitimately, if they wish) place more emphasis on some accomplishments rather than others--and as someone else noted, in that situation you will never reach a consensus. But one thing I think we can all agree on is that all those debated are superb athletes and we would be happy to any any of them on our teams.
    Posted by Rimfire


    Ok - so what actually has Moss or Owens accomplished other than more touchdowns?  Neither has won a superbowl, and those that won more do not stand up in other catagories.  Here is the point I make.  Harrison is the most complete receiver of the last decade.  Of all of the things you want in a receiver the only thing he doesn't have (which has become more of a recent phenomenon) is size.  But his speed, skill, route running ability, hands, ability to catch the ball anywhere on the field, sideline awareness, ability to stay in bounds, body control, etc.  are, as a package, unmatched.  Carly Simon was right - nobody does it better -- than Harrison.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    plain - you may have valid points but you lost me when two of your posts stated that Harrison worked primarily in the post.  It proved you are more opinion than fact.  And where Harrison is concerned your facts were wrong so your opinion was invalid.

    Sorry.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ritchie-az. Show Ritchie-az's posts

    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    Harrison was a very, very good receiver, but he certainly benefited greatly from Manning and the Colts high-power passing offense.
    For example, prior to the arrival of Manning, Harrison was good but not great (866 yards in his 2nd season, 776 yards in his 3rd). He then posted eight consecutive 1,000+ seasons while Manning was throwing close to or over 4,000 yards each season.
    I have to think if Harrison had been drafted by a different team, or if the Colts picked Leaf instead of Manning, or if Harrison had left the Colts at some point in persuit of more money, he would not even be in this discussion.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    Rich - Brady benefitted from a great defense and Adam Vinateri.  Should I say that makes him less of a QB.  By your assessment of Harrison, yes. 

    Since we can't deal in if fantasy, but only in real history, Brady's benefits catapulted him to the best QB and Harrison's benefits catapulted him to the best receiver in the opinion of these writers. 
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ritchie-az. Show Ritchie-az's posts

    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    "Brady benefitted from a great defense and Adam Vinateri."

    Apples and Oranges.

    Now if you wanted to say Brady benefitted from a great offensive line or great wide receivers, then you'd have a point.

    "Harrison's benefits catapulted him to the best receiver in the opinion of these writers."

    True, but we are talking about ESPN writers, aren't we? Wink
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ritchie-az. Show Ritchie-az's posts

    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    And, by the way, Harrison was one of the best WRs of the last decade. I never meant to say otherwise. But I think his accomplishments should be kept in perspective.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriots. Show themightypatriots's posts

    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    Dogg - what do you think Harrison's stats would have been if he had played with the same teams/QBs as Moss this decade?
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from theplaintruth. Show theplaintruth's posts

    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    Dogg,
    I truly do respect your opinion.  Don't get me wrong.  Perhaps I should've said that in most 3 receiver sets, Marvin lines up in the slot.  He is a truly one of the best I've ever seen play.  You and I shall agree to disagree on this.  I look forward to future banter and invading some of the Colt's blogs to mess with you :)  Are you at least a little more informed regarding Randy??? ( I'm stationed in Alaska so you all are 4 hours ahead of me, I'll see you all around 1200 EST)
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ritchie-az. Show Ritchie-az's posts

    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    "in most 3 receiver sets, Marvin lines up in the slot."

    That's been true the last two or three seasons, but not through most of his career.


    (By the way, theplaintruth, are you in the Air Force?)

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from theplaintruth. Show theplaintruth's posts

    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    Proud to have served for 23 years in the Air Force retiring in 2005.  I'm currently serving as the spouse of an active duty Air Force member.  What about you?  Monthan or Luke???
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ritchie-az. Show Ritchie-az's posts

    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    I did the four year thing (at Luke) and got out in '04. I'm currently a civilian federal employee on Davis Monthan.

    Thank you, both you and spouse, for your service.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    In Response to Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM:
    "Brady benefitted from a great defense and Adam Vinateri." Apples and Oranges. Now if you wanted to say Brady benefitted from a great offensive line or great wide receivers, then you'd have a point. "Harrison's benefits catapulted him to the best receiver in the opinion of these writers." True, but we are talking about ESPN writers, aren't we?
    Posted by Ritchie_az


    Nope - its exactly as I state it.  Brady's postseason record which is thing touted most to define his greatness has much much much to do with also having a great defense and a very clutch kicker.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    In Response to Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM:
    Dogg - what do you think Harrison's stats would have been if he had played with the same teams/QBs as Moss this decade?
    Posted by themightypatriots


    Just as good, because Marvin makes the QB better by running precise routes, by having supreme communication with his QB.  Its so much more than just hitting a guy on a fly pattern.  Not saying that is Moss' only talent, because it clearly isn't, but that is the threat he is known for. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    In Response to Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM:
    Dogg, I truly do respect your opinion .  Don't get me wrong.  Perhaps I should've said that in most 3 receiver sets, Marvin lines up in the slot.  He is a truly one of the best I've ever seen play.  You and I shall agree to disagree on this.  I look forward to future banter and invading some of the Colt's blogs to mess with you :)  Are you at least a little more informed regarding Randy??? ( I'm stationed in Alaska so you all are 4 hours ahead of me, I'll see you all around 1200 EST)
    Posted by theplaintruth


    Plain - No issues with you, but even in 3 receiver sets his primary position is not in the slot.  Over the years they have used Brandon Stokely primarily as a slot receiver, as well as Anthony Gonzalez.  In addition, we have occassionally seen Dallas Clark set in the slot.  In the last year they split Gonzalez out a little more frequently, and I attribute this Harrison's injury. 
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    In Response to Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM:
    "in most 3 receiver sets, Marvin lines up in the slot." That's been true the last two or three seasons, but not through most of his career. (By the way, theplaintruth, are you in the Air Force?)
    Posted by Ritchie_az


    Rich - that is correct.  I think this was due both to Harrison's injury, and the colts hope to get Gonzalez a little time out wide as he takes over for harrison in the future. 
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriots. Show themightypatriots's posts

    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    Id yn Response to Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM:
    In Response to Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM : Just as good, because Marvin makes the QB better by running precise routes, by having supreme communication with his QB.  Its so much more than just hitting a guy on a fly pattern.  Not saying that is Moss' only talent, because it clearly isn't, but that is the threat he is known for. 
    Posted by underdogg


    Dogg, I respect your loyalty to Harrison, but all his precise route running wouldn't have done anything with a QB too incompetent to get him the ball accurately.  Precise route running is only as effective as the accuracy of the QB, which is why Marv and Peyton worked so well together.  But if a receiver can catch balls from inaccurate QBs and turn them into TDs, that is a far more valuable talent than precise route running. 
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    Mighty, so are you saying that moss made those incompetent QB's competent where no other receiver could?  Or is it that only Moss had the ability to adjust to poorly thrown balls where no other receivers could? 

    Here's a youtube video, previously posted, you might like to enjoy again. 

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLGIxMaca9o

    I might add that, in my opinion, there has been no better receiver in the history of the game at catching difficult sideline balls than Harrison.  There may be some as good, but none better.  And that includes Randy Moss, Terrell Owens and Torry Holt.  None compare to Harrison in that regard. 
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriots. Show themightypatriots's posts

    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    Dogg if you want to say Harrison is the most precise route runner or the best at keeping his feet inbound on sideline catches then I'm not going to disagree with you.  But as you keep saying, those attributes alone don't make one a better overall receiver than a physical freak such as Randy Moss who does make lots of ordinary quarterbacks look extraordinary (how great was Culpepper with him?) and makes an elite quarterback invincible (Tom Brady in 2007 prior to bad weather).
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    In Response to Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM:
    there has been no better receiver in the history of the game at catching difficult sideline balls than Harrison.  There may be some as good, but none better.  And that includes Randy Moss, Terrell Owens and Torry Holt.  None compare to Harrison in that regard. 
    Posted by underdogg


    Don't be silly, Michael Irvin was the best sideline guy ever, the way he bodied DBacks out of the way with his rear end thereby avoiding a "pushing off" flag was genius.  To say anyone fought the sidelines better than Jerry Rice is near impossible, but Irvin was the master of the sideline.  PS on a side note I cant stand the Cowboys.

    Randy Moss is the best receiver of his generation; don't ask ESPN, ask the players.  No single man on the planet can run, jump and angle on a ball like Randy Moss; would you really take a 6' tall receiver over a guy who's 6'4" tall who if he ran track might be the fastest man on the planet, a guy who likely would have been an NBA star had he attempted that... be honest?

    This blatant homerism is absurd.  I would be saying Randy Moss if he got traded to any team other than the PAT's... even the Jets.  This list all around seems more like an ESPN popularity contest and Harrison gets the nod because he is all but out of football and yes he was good enough for consideration.

    Not to take anything away from Harrison because I don't know if Torry Holt should be on this list at all. The best receiver on the Rams was Issac Bruce and Holt was more one dimensional; not exactly a possesion receiver.  Harrison would be first on the list as a slot receiver, but split out you could argue Hines Ward, Steve Smith, TO or Chad Johnson even... one bad season doesn't diminish his career especially if he bounces back big this season.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from theplaintruth. Show theplaintruth's posts

    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    Wozzy,
    Good post.  Most people forget Bruce.  Bruce and Marvin are very comparable "style of playwise" IMHO only (get out of the phone booth humble and loveable "shoe shine boy").  Wozzy, I would place Cris Carter slightly ahead of Irvin.  That's just me, Carter's one of my all-time favorites...

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ritchie-az. Show Ritchie-az's posts

    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    What about Steve Largent? He had Zorn and Craig throwing to him, and on a usually bad team. Despite being "too slow" and "undersized" and not having a good receiver opposite him to help keep the heat off, he was the 2nd or 3rd best WR of his time (behind Rice, and right there with Monk).
    Largent was one of the best at working ALL parts of the field, including the sidelines. And he was a better WR than Harrison. Smile
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from theplaintruth. Show theplaintruth's posts

    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    Outstanding!  He was very underrated... He became "Biletnikoff 2 the NEXT Generation. I apologize Mr. Largent (Senator), your accomplishments should've made you impossible to overlook.  My sincerest apologies...

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from prairiemike. Show prairiemike's posts

    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    That's what playing in Seattle will do for you.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from bubthegrub2. Show bubthegrub2's posts

    Re: ESPN ALL DECADE TEAM

    Largent was one of the best WRs, and I believe he was the first to reach 100 TDs. But I thought this was a discussion about best WR of "this decade". If we are to discuss best of all time Marvin Harrison would drop quite a bit down the list, IMO.
     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share