Even if we get a pass rusher....

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from LifeTimePat. Show LifeTimePat's posts

    Even if we get a pass rusher....

    .....Pees will bury him. 

    From the NE post game quotes Adalius Thomas says

    (On explaining the lack of a consistent pass rush) - "I don't know. You have to ask somebody that does that study or whatever. Whatever they call that's what we play."

    Ok... this now makes a lot of sense.  We all know that AD was a beast at pass rushing until he got to NE.  All of a sudden he is AWOL.  He's pretty much calling out Dean Pees to let him loose and make plays.... May be it's not an effor thing that got him benched, but a protest?

    So the big Q is.... even if we do draft a stud rusher, is Pees going to turn him into a glorified contain guy so we don't give up the famous big play that will scew his statical defense??  Under Crennel, I think AD would have 14 sacks a year....

    i've been saying this on a lot of posts.... we have the right personnel (more or less), just an incompetent DC.  No matter who we draft will disappear under the current schemes and play calls...

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from ewhite1065. Show ewhite1065's posts

    Re: Even if we get a pass rusher....

    In Response to Even if we get a pass rusher....:
    [QUOTE].....Pees will bury him.  From the NE post game quotes Adalius Thomas says (On explaining the lack of a consistent pass rush) - "I don't know. You have to ask somebody that does that study or whatever. Whatever they call that's what we play." Ok... this now makes a lot of sense.  We all know that AD was a beast at pass rushing until he got to NE.  All of a sudden he is AWOL.  He's pretty much calling out Dean Pees to let him loose and make plays.... May be it's not an effor thing that got him benched, but a protest? So the big Q is.... even if we do draft a stud rusher, is Pees going to turn him into a glorified contain guy so we don't give up the famous big play that will scew his statical defense??  Under Crennel, I think AD would have 14 sacks a year.... i've been saying this on a lot of posts.... we have the right personnel (more or less), just an incompetent DC.  No matter who we draft will disappear under the current schemes and play calls...
    Posted by LifeTimePat[/QUOTE]

    I concur. Good coaches make decent players look good and bad coaches make good players look sick. We need a new D.C and a new attitude all the way around. The jets turned their "D" around in quick fashion and there's no reason we can't do it here.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from LifeTimePat. Show LifeTimePat's posts

    Re: Even if we get a pass rusher....

    In Response to Re: Even if we get a pass rusher....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Even if we get a pass rusher.... : I concur. Good coaches make decent players look good and bad coaches make good players look sick. We need a new D.C and a new attitude all the way around. The jets turned their "D" around in quick fashion and there's no reason we can't do it here.
    Posted by ewhite1065[/QUOTE]

    E.... add to that New Orleans... they pick up greg williams and all of a sudden they are very good.  They even put in some of the schemes that BB was famous for.... where the D roams around the line of scrimmage just to confuse the QB....
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from gfkr2. Show gfkr2's posts

    Re: Even if we get a pass rusher....

    I watched Thomas yesterday and he couldn't get to the passer any faster if Buddy Ryan from the 86 Bears where his defensive coordinator.  He got absolutely no push and seemed to give up yards away from Henne on most passing attempts.  Thomas should keep is yap shut.  He's done nothing to earn his keep on the Patriots for next season.  An old and tired Mike Vrabel was a much better option in rushing the passer than Thomas if you ask me.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: Even if we get a pass rusher....

    You may be right, I just don't know.  I think they are One good player away from a great D-line.  If that one player is great, I think the Seymour trade was a calculated risk Bill knew he needed a 1st rounder on the line and he knew Seymour would be gone in a year.  When he got the opportunity to get a first rounder he had to take it.  He tryed to patch the hole short term with Burgess.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from NickC1188. Show NickC1188's posts

    Re: Even if we get a pass rusher....

    In Response to Re: Even if we get a pass rusher....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Even if we get a pass rusher.... : E.... add to that New Orleans... they pick up greg williams and all of a sudden they are very good.  They even put in some of the schemes that BB was famous for.... where the D roams around the line of scrimmage just to confuse the QB....
    Posted by LifeTimePat[/QUOTE]

    They couldn't execute basic coverages against the Saints.  I don't think the personnel is as smart as past Patriots players, or else they would already be using the 1-5-5 or some derivative.

    I don't know if it's coaching or if it's personnel, but I think this team is stuck.  I don't know if they're ever going to "figure it out" as currently constituted.

    Maybe this is good.  They've lowered my expectations.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from MVPKilla2009. Show MVPKilla2009's posts

    Re: Even if we get a pass rusher....

    On what grounds to you claim AD would have 14 sacks in a Romeo Crenel defense? Name me one player during the 3 super bowls in which Romeo was coaching for us that ever had that kind of production? None is the answer because we dont have stats like that not even with Romeo. Mike Vrabel had 12 and a half sacks two years ago and no one had put up numbers like that since Andre Tippett! We just dont have numbers like that. If He could get us like 8 or 9 a year that would be great and that would be realistic number to hope for. But saying he would have 14 sacks in a Romeo D is not only wrong but its shows how little you know about this team. If you want a big stat producer I suggest you switch to the Cowboys or something cause thats where you see guys like D. Ware put up those kind of number but not here, people just dont do that in NE.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Even if we get a pass rusher....

    The problem is that playing anyone BUT AT on the left side would be disasterous. He have already seen that. So once again, they have made two spots weaker, instead of playing the best at the best spot.

    TBC plays ruush.

    Yes, At would do better. But they need him to be Vrabel now. The problem is  . . . there isn't a Rosy Colvin or Willie Mac in their prime on the other side.

    Vrabel on the left and Thomas on the rush was devastating for the short period they had that look.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from DayWooo763. Show DayWooo763's posts

    Re: Even if we get a pass rusher....

    In Response to Re: Even if we get a pass rusher....:
    [QUOTE]On what grounds to you claim AD would have 14 sacks in a Romeo Crenel defense? Name me one player during the 3 super bowls in which Romeo was coaching for us that ever had that kind of production? None is the answer because we dont have stats like that not even with Romeo. Mike Vrabel had 12 and a half sacks two years ago and no one had put up numbers like that since Andre Tippett! We just dont have numbers like that. If He could get us like 8 or 9 a year that would be great and that would be realistic number to hope for. But saying he would have 14 sacks in a Romeo D is not only wrong but its shows how little you know about this team. If you want a big stat producer I suggest you switch to the Cowboys or something cause thats where you see guys like D. Ware put up those kind of number but not here, people just dont do that in NE.
    Posted by MVPKilla2009[/QUOTE]


    Finally someone who knows what they're talking about! You're right in saying that we just don't have the type of players who can get to QB on a consistant basis. AD was very good in Baltimore for two reasons: 1. He is a very good player, and 2. Because he played with an incredible supporting cast! Have you ever heard teams say stuff like, "We just need someone opposite (insert name of elite pass rusher) and we'll be great. This team needs more than just one guy who can create problems for opposing QBs, we need guys on BOTH sides! AD registered 11 sacks in 2006 (his best year for the Ravens and still less than 14 sacks). He played in a front seven that included Haloti Ngata (1 sack), Terrell Suggs (9.5 sacks), Ray Lewis (career high 5 sacks), Trevor Pryce (carreer high 13 sacks), and Bart Scott (career high 9.5 sacks). Now, looking at those numbers and realizing how well everyone was playing that year, do you think the Patriots signed a guy who is truly good, or the dreaded "product of a system"...? Why don't we let the Ravens decide. They did when they knew their players and decided who they could let walk. That was AD, and Bart Scott a couple years later. You think it's a coincidence that neither of these players have been even half as good as they were that year? Even Trevor Pryce is showing that he was absolutely playing out of his mind for that one year.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from LifeTimePat. Show LifeTimePat's posts

    Re: Even if we get a pass rusher....

    In Response to Re: Even if we get a pass rusher....:
    On what grounds to you claim AD would have 14 sacks in a Romeo Crenel defense? Name me one player during the 3 super bowls in which Romeo was coaching for us that ever had that kind of production? None is the answer because we dont have stats like that not even with Romeo. Mike Vrabel had 12 and a half sacks two years ago and no one had put up numbers like that since Andre Tippett! We just dont have numbers like that. If He could get us like 8 or 9 a year that would be great and that would be realistic number to hope for. But saying he would have 14 sacks in a Romeo D is not only wrong but its shows how little you know about this team. If you want a big stat producer I suggest you switch to the Cowboys or something cause thats where you see guys like D. Ware put up those kind of number but not here, people just dont do that in NE.
    Posted by MVPKilla2009


    On the basis of his past production which is why he supposedly commanded massive $$$.  Are you telling me that he is not producing solely for lack of effort?? if so, why call out his coach?

    It's all about containing the famous edge and not sending him in the way Crennel used to when he'd play the linebackers on the line....


     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from DBAZ22. Show DBAZ22's posts

    Re: Even if we get a pass rusher....

    While I agree that Romeo did a great job here, he also did it with some very good to great players, especially at the LB spot - including Vrabel, McGinest, Bruschi, Phifer, Colvin, and even Cox for a season.  How did he do with average players in Cleveland?  One decent season, and the rest all losing seasons I believe.  Look at the Indiapolis Colts - do they have a great defense?  I would say far from it - how many teams this season have a great D anyway (story for another post - not many).  What they do have is Freeney and Mathis coming off the edge, and that would make almost any secondary look good with the constant pressure they apply.  Too me it is that simple.   
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from sbruce9. Show sbruce9's posts

    Re: Even if we get a pass rusher....

    In Response to Re: Even if we get a pass rusher....:
    In Response to Re: Even if we get a pass rusher.... : On the basis of his past production which is why he supposedly commanded massive $$$.  Are you telling me that he is not producing solely for lack of effort?? if so, why call out his coach? It's all about containing the famous edge and not sending him in the way Crennel used to when he'd play the linebackers on the line....
    Posted by LifeTimePat


    Just because AT was productive for the ravens it doesn't mean he would have replicated the results for the Pats.  Thus, the gamble with a free agent signing.  I think you missed the point of the post.  They are saying even under the system of defense Crennel was employing AT could have 8-9 sacks at best, not so much for lack of effort, although that may play a part.  They are also saying no patriots defensive players have put up major stats since the days of Tippett, which goes back long before Crennel was coaching the defense.  If you think playing AT on the line to create pressure would solve all our problems you should watch some footage and see how well (or in this case not) AT is getting off blocks.  He looks two steps too slow to me.  
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from LifeTimePat. Show LifeTimePat's posts

    Re: Even if we get a pass rusher....

    In Response to Re: Even if we get a pass rusher....:
    The problem is that playing anyone BUT AT on the left side would be disasterous. He have already seen that. So once again, they have made two spots weaker, instead of playing the best at the best spot. TBC plays ruush. Yes, At would do better. But they need him to be Vrabel now. The problem is  . . . there isn't a Rosy Colvin or Willie Mac in their prime on the other side. Vrabel on the left and Thomas on the rush was devastating for the short period they had that look.
    Posted by zbellino


    Z.... that's actually a good point.... hadn't looked at it that way.

    DBA... I think Crennel was over his head in Cleveland the way Pees is over his head here.  I agree that TBC is not great but you'd think Thomas should be on the caliber of Wille?  At least on the surface?  So somehow I'm still hung up on the fact the coaching schemes is limiting this D and how aggressive they play.... keep in mind the philosophy is to not give up the big play.... at the expense of more pressure.... but the problem is, neither is working...
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from LifeTimePat. Show LifeTimePat's posts

    Re: Even if we get a pass rusher....

    In Response to Re: Even if we get a pass rusher....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Even if we get a pass rusher.... : Finally someone who knows what they're talking about! You're right in saying that we just don't have the type of players who can get to QB on a consistant basis. AD was very good in Baltimore for two reasons: 1. He is a very good player, and 2. Because he played with an incredible supporting cast! Have you ever heard teams say stuff like, "We just need someone opposite (insert name of elite pass rusher) and we'll be great. This team needs more than just one guy who can create problems for opposing QBs, we need guys on BOTH sides! AD registered 11 sacks in 2006 (his best year for the Ravens and still less than 14 sacks). He played in a front seven that included Haloti Ngata (1 sack), Terrell Suggs (9.5 sacks), Ray Lewis (career high 5 sacks), Trevor Pryce (carreer high 13 sacks), and Bart Scott (career high 9.5 sacks). Now, looking at those numbers and realizing how well everyone was playing that year, do you think the Patriots signed a guy who is truly good, or the dreaded "product of a system"...? Why don't we let the Ravens decide. They did when they knew their players and decided who they could let walk. That was AD, and Bart Scott a couple years later. You think it's a coincidence that neither of these players have been even half as good as they were that year? Even Trevor Pryce is showing that he was absolutely playing out of his mind for that one year.
    Posted by DayWooo763[/QUOTE]

    Day, lets not get hung up on a number...9, 12, 14 sack is not my point.  My point is that, as you said, he is a good player, who is saying what we all have been saying.... the play calling is NOT aggressive and is NOT maxing out personnel ability.  Bend but don't break is the issue.

    I'm not hung up on Thomas either.... I'm not claiming he is the answer..... all I'm saying is that Pees should get more out of him and TBC and Warren etc etc etc.... Another way to say it is that a real DC would be able to do a lot more with this group of guys than NE is getting. 

    Finally, my main point is, we can get Peppers, we can get Jared Allen for that matter and my guess would be that they'd get lost in this scheme.... unless Pees is replaced...
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from DBAZ22. Show DBAZ22's posts

    Re: Even if we get a pass rusher....

    LTP I think they swung and missed on Burgess.  He has been a bust of epic proportions, having traded two picks to get him.  He has been flat out awful, and that isn't a coaching issue - that is a personnel issue.  Pees has been around awhile, and I am sure he learned quite a bit from Crennel, and in my opinion it is a lack of talent on the edge.  AD was also a bad signing in hindsight.  Just a couple of nuggets in six years with the Ravens - 38.5 sacks, 13 forced fumbles, and 6 int.  3 years with the Pats - 14.5 sacks, 2 forced fumbles, and 1 int.  He is clearly on the decline, and can't get it done.  If they get a top-flight DE/LB i.e.: Peppers, J.Allen, or a Freeney-type then TBC could approach double-digit totals.  AD was supposed to the guy that needed to be double-teamed, and that clearly has not been an issue for opposing teams.  He doesn't even need to be chipped.  That is not coaching.   
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from LifeTimePat. Show LifeTimePat's posts

    Re: Even if we get a pass rusher....

    In Response to Re: Even if we get a pass rusher....:
    [QUOTE]LTP I think they swung and missed on Burgess.  He has been a bust of epic proportions, having traded two picks to get him.  He has been flat out awful, and that isn't a coaching issue - that is a personnel issue.  Pees has been around awhile, and I am sure he learned quite a bit from Crennel, and in my opinion it is a lack of talent on the edge.  AD was also a bad signing in hindsight.  Just a couple of nuggets in six years with the Ravens - 38.5 sacks, 13 forced fumbles, and 6 int.  3 years with the Pats - 14.5 sacks, 2 forced fumbles, and 1 int.  He is clearly on the decline, and can't get it done.  If they get a top-flight DE/LB i.e.: Peppers, J.Allen, or a Freeney-type then TBC could approach double-digit totals.  AD was supposed to the guy that needed to be double-teamed, and that clearly has not been an issue for opposing teams.  He doesn't even need to be chipped.  That is not coaching.   
    Posted by DBAZ22[/QUOTE]

    100% agree that Burgess is a bust.  But lets flip it around for a minute.... NE picked up Vrabel out of Pittsburgh obscurity... no one saw him on the rader till he got here.... where ability + coaching + smarts made him great.  Is he a better athelete than AD?.... no.  Was he coached better in a better defensive scheme?  Yes.

    I know it's one quote from one player, but in my mind for AD to call out the coaching scheme tells me that he feels he's not utilized properly and is looking worse than he is.  

    Bottom line is that NE has moved away from an aggressive, confusing D that some teams have successfully copied to a plain, basic, predictable scheme.  The time that happened was when Pees took over, when we still had rodney, Vrable, Asante, Bruschi, rosie, TBC, Seymour, willie etc?  If most of your players are the same, but the D can't close, that's on the coach. 

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from DayWooo763. Show DayWooo763's posts

    Re: Even if we get a pass rusher....

    LifeTimePat, I understand what you ment when you were talkin about our personnel not being maxed out. I completely agree with you. I think the people suggesting we get Peppers are a little hung up with the rumors that went around last year. He really isn't that great. I live in North Carolina (originally from Boston) and I watch Panthers games all the time becase obviously that's all they show, and he's really not that great. In an agressive 4-3 scheme, the guy can put up huge games. Problem is that's not what we play. I feel he would be another wasted talent here in NE. He's just too big. We need some guys who can really turn the corner on the outside. It's the super quick, high motor edge rushers who are making all the noise in the NFL right now and the Pats simply need to catch up. We spent so many years as the team that was setting all these trends, and now I think we just need to look around the league for answers. Elvis Dumervil is a FA after this year. Some team will overpay for him, but it is an uncapped year. And guess what, we're a big market franchise! I also know that at this point it's probably a long shot but we've still never seen Crable. At times he was much better than Lamar Woodley when they were both at Michigan and he was certainly more highly recruited. I understand High school recruiting rankings have nothing to do with whether he'll be good in NE or not but the guy does have talent and a frightening first step. This team will draft top talent in 2010 and certainly in 2011, don't worry. I think Aaron Kampman may be availible as well. And I think he can still play at a high level.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from unclealfie. Show unclealfie's posts

    Re: Even if we get a pass rusher....

    In Response to Even if we get a pass rusher....:
    .....Pees will bury him.  From the NE post game quotes Adalius Thomas says (On explaining the lack of a consistent pass rush) - "I don't know. You have to ask somebody that does that study or whatever. Whatever they call that's what we play." Ok... this now makes a lot of sense.  We all know that AD was a beast at pass rushing until he got to NE.  All of a sudden he is AWOL.  He's pretty much calling out Dean Pees to let him loose and make plays.... May be it's not an effor thing that got him benched, but a protest? So the big Q is.... even if we do draft a stud rusher, is Pees going to turn him into a glorified contain guy so we don't give up the famous big play that will scew his statical defense??  Under Crennel, I think AD would have 14 sacks a year.... i've been saying this on a lot of posts.... we have the right personnel (more or less), just an incompetent DC.  No matter who we draft will disappear under the current schemes and play calls...
    Posted by LifeTimePat


    Whatever the reason, pees just is not having success with this defense.
    I don't know if its as simple as the scheming but pees is the man in charge and he should be the man taking responsibility for the nightmare that our D has become.

    In any case, I'd feel more comfortable that the D is being managed properly if Crennel was running it. I realize its a long shot, but at least I'd have confidence in the man and I believe the players would, too.
     
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