Excellent Article on Pats' Role in the AH Situation

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Excellent Article on Pats' Role in the AH Situation

         Here's an excellent article regarding the Pats' responsibility, if any, for the Hernandez mess. Believe it or not, it's written by Mike Florio: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/06/30/hernandezs-red-flags-never-pointed-to-murder/

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Excellent Article on Pats' Role in the AH Situation

    Sensible people would agree with Florio's take. That leaves out the drama queens and trolls.

     

     

     photo BBandtheRat_zpsc338a3a1.gif

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Excellent Article on Pats' Role in the AH Situation

     

     Overall, I agree with the sentiment in the article.  The only thing I think you can legitimately criticize the Pats for is the general strategy of taking risky players in the draft in the hopes of finding a player who's worth more than his draft position suggests.  That strategy has paid a few dividends (Gronk and Hern seemed to be the "biggest" of those dividends recently), but it has also resulted in a large number of busts.  Hern looked like a big win from this approach . . . now he's a loss.  Gronk similarly looks like a huge win from this strategy, but the injury history is beginning to get troubling.  Guys like Ras-I and Butler and Tate have already raised questions about the effectiveness of such a high risk strategy . . .

     

    One thing that always makes me spit out my coffee . . . whenever someone points to Hernandez's Bible study as some sign he had reformed himself.  Please . . .  how idiotic is that?

     

     When I read in the New York Times  that, 

     

    "By his junior year, Coach Urban Meyer was saying that Mr. Hernandez had been rehabilitated with daily Bible study sessions that the coach conducted personally"

    I can't help thinking that Urban Meyer is either the most gullible person in the world or the most insincere. 

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Excellent Article on Pats' Role in the AH Situation

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

     Overall, I agree with the sentiment in the article.  The only thing I think you can legitimately criticize the Pats for is the general strategy of taking risky players in the draft in the hopes of finding a player who's worth more than his draft position suggests.  That strategy has paid a few dividends (Gronk and Hern seemed to be the "biggest" of those dividends recently), but it has also resulted in a large number of busts.  Hern looked like a big win from this approach . . . now he's a loss.  Gronk similarly looks like a huge win from this strategy, but the injury history is beginning to get troubling.  Guys like Ras-I and Butler and Tate have already raised questions about the effectiveness of such a high risk strategy . . .

     

    One thing that always makes me spit out my coffee . . . whenever someone points to Hernandez's Bible study as some sign he had reformed himself.  Please . . . 




    I'm having a few issues with your statements here.

     

    First, how is AH paying dividends from risk taking when they just paid him the highest signing bonus of any TE in history. That's market value and maybe then some. If any benefit was gained from "risk" it was with his rookie contract. You don't pay full price for risk unless you're an idiot.

    Also, I don't have a problem with BB taking risks on people with off field issues, or injury issues. He did that with a few and it worked out and others it didn't. It's a viable strategy, if it works. In any case the buck stops with him. No mulligans for it being risky, because he gets the glory if it works out.

    And, are you saying it's laughable that anybody could become much better behaved by becoming a Christian?

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from walton. Show walton's posts

    Re: Excellent Article on Pats' Role in the AH Situation


                    I disagree with all the viewpoints on this idea of "what the Patriots" could have done or what any professional team can do..............if they choose. Hire a private investigator and follow Hernandez around 24 hours a day for a month if you wanna know what he's doing. Don't listen to his former coach or someone you think "know's him" or anything else. Be intrusive. If you're gonna put 40 million dollars into a human being {in whatever walk of life} that might be then you have every right to spy on him in my opinion............The Yankees may offer Robinson Cano a 150 million dollar contract for 6 years going forward. There is some question of possible steroid use with the Florida situation. Fine. Follow him around 24 hrs a day for six weeks. Talk to EVERYONE. Investigate everything. This idea that "how would they know," is absurd. It wouldn't have been THAT HARD to find out what Hernandez was up too. Not just the Patriots. I'm amazed at how little pro franchises KNOW about what their players are really "up too." It boggles my mind. Give me a name. Pay me good money. I'll find out what they up too. Promise you.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Excellent Article on Pats' Role in the AH Situation

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

     Overall, I agree with the sentiment in the article.  The only thing I think you can legitimately criticize the Pats for is the general strategy of taking risky players in the draft in the hopes of finding a player who's worth more than his draft position suggests.  That strategy has paid a few dividends (Gronk and Hern seemed to be the "biggest" of those dividends recently), but it has also resulted in a large number of busts.

     

    RESPONSE: You're forgetting 2012 7th round pick, Alfonzo Dennard, and Ryan Mallett (although the jury certainly is still out on him). There's also a big difference between taking on players with character concerns, as opposed to injury concerns.  Furthermore, the Pats the decisions to bring aboard troubled veterans, such as Randy Moss, Corey Dillon, and Aqib Talib (so far), have paid off.

     

     Hern looked like a big win from this approach . . . now he's a loss.  Gronk similarly looks like a huge win from this strategy, but the injury history is beginning to get troubling.  Guys like Ras-I and Butler and Tate have already raised questions about the effectiveness of such a high risk strategy . . .

     

    RESPONSE: Even if Gronk and AH never play another down for the Pats, they both were very good players for the team for three years...and thus cannot be referred to as "busts" or "losses". The decisions to sign both to lucrative, long term extensions initially seemed to be brilliant moves, but now appear to have been big mistakes. But, that has nothing to do with the decision to draft either player. 

     

    One thing that always makes me spit out my coffee . . . whenever someone points to Hernandez's Bible study as some sign he had reformed himself.  Please . . . 

     

    RESPONSE: Yeah, go ahead, and attack religion.  Whether one reforms or not depends on the person. I dare say that had Hernandez followed the teachings contained in the Bible, he wouldn't be sitting in jail right now.




     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Excellent Article on Pats' Role in the AH Situation

     

    No I'm not forgetting Dennard or Mallet . . . I've written extensively before about the fact that I think the jury remains out on the value strategy.  I see many benefits of it and many successes.  But I also see some downsides and failures.  I haven't made up my mind yet on whether it's overall a good approach or a bad.  I will, however, say that the Pats lag where I'd like them to be on talent and the transfer of Hern from an unmitigated success to something of a failure is another knock against the value strategy. 

     

    As far as the Bible study goes, maybe Hernandez thought Cain was a role model . . . 

     
  8. This post has been removed.

     
  9. This post has been removed.

     
  10. This post has been removed.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Excellent Article on Pats' Role in the AH Situation

    In response to NedBraden's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

     

     Overall, I agree with the sentiment in the article.  The only thing I think you can legitimately criticize the Pats for is the general strategy of taking risky players in the draft in the hopes of finding a player who's worth more than his draft position suggests.  That strategy has paid a few dividends (Gronk and Hern seemed to be the "biggest" of those dividends recently), but it has also resulted in a large number of busts.  Hern looked like a big win from this approach . . . now he's a loss.  Gronk similarly looks like a huge win from this strategy, but the injury history is beginning to get troubling.  Guys like Ras-I and Butler and Tate have already raised questions about the effectiveness of such a high risk strategy . . .

     

    One thing that always makes me spit out my coffee . . . whenever someone points to Hernandez's Bible study as some sign he had reformed himself.  Please . . .  how idiotic is that?

     

     When I read in the New York Times  that, 

     

    "By his junior year, Coach Urban Meyer was saying that Mr. Hernandez had been rehabilitated with daily Bible study sessions that the coach conducted personally"

    I can't help thinking that Urban Meyer is either the most gullible person in the world or the most insincere. 

     



    Dude, that's what a lot of those bible thumpers do. Look at Dungy with Vick.  They actualy think by reading from a book with some made up stories in it, it somehow makes the person more mature or able to be changed.

     

    WIth Vick, for example, the only reason why he came across all sheepish and full of regret is because he got caughty lying to Goodell and being involved in interstate crime, with a jail sentence. Dungy is as full of crap as Mike Vick is.

    I have no issues with people wanting to be religious on their own time or whatever, but I agree that silly religious angle as if it means something, is a crock. It's like the musician or actor who does hard drugs for years and years (and is an alchoholic) and then comes out of rehab for the 9th time and claims the've found god.

    No, you haven't, it's just an excuse for you to not revert back to your old life, an excuse as to WHY you chose to indulge and become victimed by addictive chemicals like cocain, heroin, etc, so it's a nice easy way to wipe your hands of it.

    Ain't buying it.  It's what you do, not what book you open.



    Completely agree Rusty.  Superficial piety is easy  . . . and meaningless.  

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from seattlepat70. Show seattlepat70's posts

    Re: Excellent Article on Pats' Role in the AH Situation

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    No I'm not forgetting Dennard or Mallet . . . I've written extensively before about the fact that I think the jury remains out on the value strategy.  I see many benefits of it and many successes.  But I also see some downsides and failures.  I haven't made up my mind yet on whether it's overall a good approach or a bad.  I will, however, say that the Pats lag where I'd like them to be on talent and the transfer of Hern from an unmitigated success to something of a failure is another knock against the value strategy. 

     

    As far as the Bible study goes, maybe Hernandez thought Cain was a role model . . . 



    It all boils down to whether you believe...

    1) People can change

    2) Religion can help facilitate that change

    It does not work for everyone, but many people know someone who went through a positive transformation with the help of religion. Of those people who witnessed that reform, many believe, that, if even few of those who try to transform actually complete that transformation, they should give people trying the benefit of the doubt. 

    I guess you have little faith in people's ability to change for the better. Less so in religion's ability to impact that.

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Macrawn. Show Macrawn's posts

    Re: Excellent Article on Pats' Role in the AH Situation

    Exactly. And if another player with first talent drops to the 4th round because he smokes pot, you draft him. The Pats should stick with this strategy as it is the only way to pick up stars when you are drafting at the end of every round every year. It has worked well overall, but obviously it can backfire. 

    The reality is that predicting this kind of stuff is difficult because let's face it, many, many nfl players come from troubled neigborhoods, and troubled childhoods. I would have made the same draft pick every time given what was known then. 

    Losing an illusion makes you wiser than finding the truth.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Excellent Article on Pats' Role in the AH Situation

    eventually, someone would have had drafted Hernandez.  The outcome prolly wouldn't have been any different

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Excellent Article on Pats' Role in the AH Situation

    I posted exactly one year ago to almost the day, that I saw AH in a club in NYC, private party, public club, smoking pot in public hanging with a few other guys who were bothering numerous other partiers. 

    Many were taking pictures and videos on their phones. For the Pats to plead hey didn't know IMO is a crock. Too many other people knew. 

    When I posted one year ago, of course I was asked for a link. No links, as I was at the party, but not taking pictures. Again, many were. 

     
  16. This post has been removed.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Excellent Article on Pats' Role in the AH Situation

    In response to NedBraden's comment:

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

    I posted exactly one year ago to almost the day, that I saw AH in a club in NYC, private party, public club, smoking pot in public hanging with a few other guys who were bothering numerous other partiers. 

    Many were taking pictures and videos on their phones. For the Pats to plead hey didn't know IMO is a crock. Too many other people knew. 

    When I posted one year ago, of course I was asked for a link. No links, as I was at the party, but not taking pictures. Again, many were. 

     




     

    Are you seriously this stupid?  What does "smoking pot in public" have to do with someone murdering someone?

    I've spoked pot in public NUMEROUS times at concerts, or wherever I so chose to do so. It's a plant that is about to become legal nationwide because it's ridiculously long overdue and could have incredible economic impact for farmers, job seeker, entrepreneurs, and clearly, it's an untapped extra revenue stream for states.

    We don't care if you saw Mickey Mouse smoking pot at some party.   This is your problem here. You're like some little giddy school girl with a secret who comes in here to try to impress people or something.

    Jay Shizzles does the same thing with his "I smoked up with JR Redmond and sold weed to Tully Banta Cain.

    No one is impressed.  No one cares.

    Weed is everywhere and many professional and successful smoke it. Get over it. It's not some taboo thing to many us.

    Good grief. The education level from you is so low it's unreal. You sure you're a 50 something with an MBA from Harvard? I don't think so, RKrap.

    Here is a guy who smokes weed:  Jim Lampley. Who would have thunk it, huh? Raging pothead.  Loves it.  I know because I know.  But, you don't see my coming on here trying to act like I have some National Enquirer info about it. Who cares?

    Pothead = Future Murderer?

    Seriously?  This is your premise?



    Not connecting the dots pot = murder

    connecting the dots pot in public = dummy

    bullying other patrons wasn't fun either

    Pats dropped the ball.....deal with it, even if your Bill man love won't let u

     

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Excellent Article on Pats' Role in the AH Situation

    If you avoid drafting everyone who had some character concern, you'd miss out on some good players. Like Warren Sapp who dropped because of weed, and Dan Marino who dropped because of rumors of this or that. Both HOFers. The Bucs and Dolphins weighed the risk against the return and rolled the dice. The payoff was pretty sweet with those guys. Sometimes it isn't.

    Are those things something to consider, yeah sure, but you don't avoid someone altogether because of what they did when they were 20.  There were people on this board calling for them to draft that Honey Badger moron, or that WR Hopkins who went undrafted.  Probably glad they didn't about now and probably feel pretty silly now as well. 

    Hernandez fooled everybody, he's not the first guy to live a double life and he won't be the last. Sports teams are no different from other employers, they don't care what you do in your off time, as long as it's lawful and doesn't violate your contract. They frankly would rather not know, but you need to show up ready to work.

    I haven't heard or read anything calling into question AH's work ethic or his preparation. He seemed to be exemplary. 

     

     
  19. This post has been removed.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Excellent Article on Pats' Role in the AH Situation

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    No I'm not forgetting Dennard or Mallet . . . I've written extensively before about the fact that I think the jury remains out on the value strategy.  I see many benefits of it and many successes.  But I also see some downsides and failures.  I haven't made up my mind yet on whether it's overall a good approach or a bad.  I will, however, say that the Pats lag where I'd like them to be on talent and the transfer of Hern from an unmitigated success to something of a failure is another knock against the value strategy. 

     

    As far as the Bible study goes, maybe Hernandez thought Cain was a role model . . . 




    Nothing wrong with the value strategy.... if it works.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: Excellent Article on Pats' Role in the AH Situation

    Thanks for the link TexasPat.

    As I mentioned days ago, there were many people who were thinking the Patriots were going to be put to the fire for drafting Hernandez.  That this was going to open up more attacks then spygate.  I said no, no, no.  The media will go a different way with this because this was not anything the Patriots could have prevented.  Heck, some team would have drafted him.  Problem players are on every NFL team, you can't blame the team.  I have seen Florio write some pretty one sided articles when it came to the pats so here was his chance and he didn't, because he knows the score here.  As it looks right now it is exactly as I thought it would be.  Not many attacks on the Patriots with this one.

     

    As a side note, looks like another thread laced with Rusty acting like a child, calling names and attacking people. 

     

    ---------------------------------------------

    check out my Patriots photoshops @ patsfanfotoshop.tumblr.com for some good laughs.


    Photobucket


     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from JMUFranco. Show JMUFranco's posts

    Re: Excellent Article on Pats' Role in the AH Situation

    I gotta side with Rusty on a few of the points here. First off, the whole Bible study thing is absurd. There's no reason to assume that a given religiously-driven behavior somehow corresponds with another completely unrelated behavior. Urban sitting down reading scriptures from the Bible to Hernandez arguably likely had the same impact that Urban sitting down with Hernandez and playing Grand Theft Auto together theoretically would have-- none. To TexasPat and Babe, I don't think Rusty was criticizing Christianity itself in any way in the first post. He simply was stating that it's illogical to assume that reading the Bible will necessitate a positive change in character. Just because it may not in one scenario, like Hernandez's, doesn't mean that it doesn't have positive effects on others. And c'mon, let's be real here. Some of the cruelest historical events have occurred in the name of religion or by religious officials (Spanish inquisition, motives behind imperialism, recent sex scandals by the church). Not saying that religion is inherently wrong or inherently good, I'm just pointing out that its effect is purely individual.

    As for the Pats and their investment in them, who can blame them? Sure, there were some red flags, but it seems like he was doing all the right things in New England. At the very least, he hid his mis-steps better than many other high-profile athletes on other teams do (Dez, Cromartie, etc.). He was a fourth rounder, so let's put that in perspective. Most fourth rounders are out of the league within a few years or are serviceable backups at best, but we snagged a top tight end. We were lucky in that regard, it's just unfortunate that his personal decisions hurt himself, Odin Lloyd, and the Pats as a whole. But there's no reason to say the Pats did the wrong thing by drafting and extending one of the top young tight ends in football. They made a calculated decision with a lot more knowledge about him than any of us have. Just because a choice doesn't yield the intended results doesn't mean that you made the wrong choice, and vice versa. Buying a lottery ticket yields a statistically negative net gain. Buying a lottery ticket, therefore, would classify as a "wrong" decision every time you buy one, even if you wound up winning the jackpot. Just food for thought.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: Excellent Article on Pats' Role in the AH Situation

    In response to NedBraden's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

     

     Overall, I agree with the sentiment in the article.  The only thing I think you can legitimately criticize the Pats for is the general strategy of taking risky players in the draft in the hopes of finding a player who's worth more than his draft position suggests.  That strategy has paid a few dividends (Gronk and Hern seemed to be the "biggest" of those dividends recently), but it has also resulted in a large number of busts.  Hern looked like a big win from this approach . . . now he's a loss.  Gronk similarly looks like a huge win from this strategy, but the injury history is beginning to get troubling.  Guys like Ras-I and Butler and Tate have already raised questions about the effectiveness of such a high risk strategy . . .

     

    One thing that always makes me spit out my coffee . . . whenever someone points to Hernandez's Bible study as some sign he had reformed himself.  Please . . .  how idiotic is that?

     

     When I read in the New York Times  that, 

     

    "By his junior year, Coach Urban Meyer was saying that Mr. Hernandez had been rehabilitated with daily Bible study sessions that the coach conducted personally"

    I can't help thinking that Urban Meyer is either the most gullible person in the world or the most insincere. 

     



    Dude, that's what a lot of those bible thumpers do. Look at Dungy with Vick.  They actualy think by reading from a book with some made up stories in it, it somehow makes the person more mature or able to be changed.

     

    WIth Vick, for example, the only reason why he came across all sheepish and full of regret is because he got caughty lying to Goodell and being involved in interstate crime, with a jail sentence. Dungy is as full of crap as Mike Vick is.

    I have no issues with people wanting to be religious on their own time or whatever, but I agree that silly religious angle as if it means something, is a crock. It's like the musician or actor who does hard drugs for years and years (and is an alchoholic) and then comes out of rehab for the 9th time and claims the've found god.

    No, you haven't, it's just an excuse for you to not revert back to your old life, an excuse as to WHY you chose to indulge and become victimed by addictive chemicals like cocain, heroin, etc, so it's a nice easy way to wipe your hands of it.

    Ain't buying it.  It's what you do, not what book you open.

     




    translation: Faith is for the "weak-minded" and the "emotionally needy" and those of us who are "superior" realize god (purposely using small g to passively mock) is illogical and non-existent and logic and Reason (purposely capitalized to passively mock a la Carl Sagan) is the "truth" and as such appeals greatly to self-important, cold, irreverent libertarians like me who KNOW we are "better" and breathe rarified air and have posters of Mr Spock on our walls and consider stephen hawking the greatest human who ever lived

     

    right queenie?  Cool

     

    ps: watching u bend over backwards using that "152 IQ" to shift any blame or responsibility for Hernandez from the pats, kraft and especially bellichick to anyone and everyone else is incredibly entertaining to watch  :  )

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Excellent Article on Pats' Role in the AH Situation

    Every time something like this happens the seat-of-the-pants GMs and couch potato pscychotherapists come out of the woodwork.


    *The guy's character profile shows this

    *When he was in pre-school he did that

    *His great-uncle's brother-in-law was a bookie in Schmucatelliville

    *Obviously the Pats didn't do their homework (I flippin love that one)

    The AH pick was a known risk going in.  To this degree?  Of course not.  But I too specifically recall there being absolutely no negative nancies when they locked up AH to that contract extension either on this board or in the media in general.

    I found the article reasoned and objective.  Time to stop the second-guessing on this tragedy.

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Excellent Article on Pats' Role in the AH Situation

    2 issues here. Drafting a risky player mid round imo is worth the gamble. your financial losses with a mid round cut are not great.

    resigning a risky player to a large contract with out due dilligence is unforgivable. Kraft is seething at the daily negative publicity. The info I have read is the cap hit next year is $7.5.

    Rusty can side step how could anyone have known? Many, many did. Too many whispers and flags. My post on seeing AH was that if I saw this type of behavior, wouldn't the team have knowledge? Smoking pot doesnt make this guy a murderer. Smoking pot in public and bullying patrons imo should force the Pats into a major character check of this guy. Obviously not done

     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share