Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from RallyC. Show RallyC's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to Harvey-Wallbanger's comment:

    In response to RallyC's comment:

    In response to Harvey-Wallbanger's comment:

     

    In response to RallyC's comment:

    In response to coolade2's comment:

    Amazing how so many people don't know this rule and make up their own interpretations...lol.

     

     

     

    The spot on a sideline out of bounds play is established by the position of the ball when the player or part of the ball (while in possession of the player) make contact with any part of the sidelines and ground beyond the sidelines. So, as long as the player's body has not made any physical contact with the sidelines or ground as he goes out of bounds, the player can extend the ball further up field and the spot should be placed where the ball crosses the sidelines before contact is made with the ground. However, if the player touches the ground on the sideline or out of bounds BEFORE the ball crosses the sidelines as it exits the filed of play, then the ball should be placed where the players body made sideline/out of bounds contact.

     

    As for the PYLON (with the ball):  The player does not have to touch the pylon. All the ball has to do is break the imaginary plane that extends up from the goaline before out of bounds is established by contact with the ground. The players do prove actual plane penetration when they hit the pylon with the ball as it serves as a physical segment of the imaginary plane and if the ball touches it before a player is established as down by contact or out of bounds, it leaves no room for discussion and is obviously a TD. If they pass the ball over the pylon without obvious touching, it is still a TD but there will be an official review to determine that the ball did break the plane.



    And that is why, RallyC, Geno Bust was short. At some point before he's reaching for the marker, his knee of elbow has touched short of the marker.



    Yo Russ, I honestly cannot tell that Smith made contact with the ground prior to the ball exiting the field of play. But if his elbow or knee did so prior to the ball crossing the sideline, then you are correct. Otherwise, though you could be right, it does not apear to me by the small view provided here today that it would have been reversable if challenged. I too remember feeling the way you did about it at the time on during the game, but the network simply brushed past it.....very odd.



    The networks seem to try to defend the refs when a play is close. If it is not challenged, then they never both to show it and just act like it's the right call.

    A replay would have been nice, but I remember thinking if you're coming to the marker at an angle like that and lunging, it would be hard for your leg or elbow to not have contacted the chalk, especially the leg.  

    Right then and there, I knew the refs were going to be favoring the Jets to get back into it.   To not measure and the swift 1st down signal was creepy.



    Though you could be right about the networks picking thier fights on certain plays, I believe it is more just a function of the programming director making the call to replay only those plays that are in question or are considered major highlites and to keep the flow of the game going instead of harping on what has been deemed correct with no challenge even by the opposing coach. It does seem odd they didn't replay it, but for a Jets fan, you know it was eactly what they were hoping for! 

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to RallyC's comment:

    Bumped.



    Welcome back Rally

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from coolade2. Show coolade2's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    of course meadowlark lemon doesn't really count so maybe most people understand it by now hopefully...  Except for rtuinila...lol.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from RallyC. Show RallyC's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to tcal2-'s comment:

    In response to RallyC's comment:

    Bumped.



    Welcome back Rally



    Thanks, TCal...

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeadowlandMike. Show MeadowlandMike's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to coolade2's comment:

    In response to Harvey-Wallbanger's comment:

    In response to RallyC's comment:

    In response to Harvey-Wallbanger's comment:

     

    In response to RallyC's comment:

    In response to coolade2's comment:

    Amazing how so many people don't know this rule and make up their own interpretations...lol.

     

     

     

    The spot on a sideline out of bounds play is established by the position of the ball when the player or part of the ball (while in possession of the player) make contact with any part of the sidelines and ground beyond the sidelines. So, as long as the player's body has not made any physical contact with the sidelines or ground as he goes out of bounds, the player can extend the ball further up field and the spot should be placed where the ball crosses the sidelines before contact is made with the ground. However, if the player touches the ground on the sideline or out of bounds BEFORE the ball crosses the sidelines as it exits the filed of play, then the ball should be placed where the players body made sideline/out of bounds contact.

     

    As for the PYLON (with the ball):  The player does not have to touch the pylon. All the ball has to do is break the imaginary plane that extends up from the goaline before out of bounds is established by contact with the ground. The players do prove actual plane penetration when they hit the pylon with the ball as it serves as a physical segment of the imaginary plane and if the ball touches it before a player is established as down by contact or out of bounds, it leaves no room for discussion and is obviously a TD. If they pass the ball over the pylon without obvious touching, it is still a TD but there will be an official review to determine that the ball did break the plane.



    And that is why, RallyC, Geno Bust was short. At some point before he's reaching for the marker, his knee of elbow has touched short of the marker.



    Yo Russ, I honestly cannot tell that Smith made contact with the ground prior to the ball exiting the field of play. But if his elbow or knee did so prior to the ball crossing the sideline, then you are correct. Otherwise, though you could be right, it does not apear to me by the small view provided here today that it would have been reversable if challenged. I too remember feeling the way you did about it at the time on during the game, but the network simply brushed past it.....very odd.



    The networks seem to try to defend the refs when a play is close. If it is not challenged, then they never both to show it and just act like it's the right call.

    A replay would have been nice, but I remember thinking if you're coming to the marker at an angle like that and lunging, it would be hard for your leg or elbow to not have contacted the chalk, especially the leg.  

    Right then and there, I knew the refs were going to be favoring the Jets to get back into it.   To not measure and the swift 1st down signal was creepy.




    Exactly ...  A replay would have been nice...  along with an explanation of the ball spotting RULE...!   This was a miracle call under the circumstances  and you can see the desperate lunge by Smith.

    It looked woafully short to the naked eye... hence the reason for the thread... and come to find out only about 3-4 members of the board know the rule... WE're on page 3 of the debate and still people are getting it wrong...lol

     



    Are all lunges toward markers desperate? Or just this one?  Why didn't Belichick challenge this obviously bad spot?

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from coolade2. Show coolade2's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    answer:   because there was no replay and he was on the other side of the field.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeadowlandMike. Show MeadowlandMike's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to coolade2's comment:

    answer:   because there was no replay and he was on the other side of the field.



    No replay?  Are you suggesting that the coaches only have access to what the network puts on TV?  Oh my.  You're kind of new to professional sports, huh?  But again, the video you have posted and claimed that it clearly shows Geno was out must have been at their disposal.  Did you know that every team has staff who just watch plays to decide if they should be challenged?  Sounds like Belichick was just outcoached in that game on top of the defense getting eaten alive by a rookie QB.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeadowlandMike. Show MeadowlandMike's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    The best part of this is that weeks later you are still crying about how you were so wronged by the refs.  Classic example of a Pats fan.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from digger0862. Show digger0862's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to coolade2's comment:

    Amazing how so many people don't know this rule and make up their own interpretations...lol.

    Guilty as charged! I assumed the refs knew what they were doing and that's why the play wasn't challenged. Now it is almost certain that the refs made a bad call and that Belichick thought there wasn't a clear replay to overturn the ruling.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeadowlandMike. Show MeadowlandMike's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to digger0862's comment:

    In response to coolade2's comment:

    Amazing how so many people don't know this rule and make up their own interpretations...lol.

    Guilty as charged! I assumed the refs knew what they were doing and that's why the play wasn't challenged. Now it is almost certain that the refs made a bad call and that Belichick thought there wasn't a clear replay to overturn the ruling.

     



    How so? What about the rule do you think apllies here to make it short?

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to coolade2's comment:

    Amazing how so many people don't know this rule and make up their own interpretations...lol.



    keeps people busy. did someone cut and paste anything from the official rule book?  lol

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeadowlandMike. Show MeadowlandMike's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to anonymis' comment:

    In response to coolade2's comment:

    Amazing how so many people don't know this rule and make up their own interpretations...lol.



    keeps people busy. did someone cut and paste anything from the official rule book?  lol

     



    They are not sure which rule book to use.  The one from before the season or the one that was put out mid way.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeadowlandMike. Show MeadowlandMike's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    Hey Harvey, where is it that his knee touched first?

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeadowlandMike. Show MeadowlandMike's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    Hey Harv, I posted this for you.  Nothing to say?  See how close that knee is to the ground?  Me neither.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from coolade2. Show coolade2's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to MeadowlandMike's comment:

    Hey Harv, I posted this for you.  Nothing to say?  See how close that knee is to the ground?  Me neither.




    Hey dummy,  this picture also shows how far out of bounds Geno is and that ball crossed sideline about a yard prior to picture ...  dimwit.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeadowlandMike. Show MeadowlandMike's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to coolade2's comment:

    In response to MeadowlandMike's comment:

    Hey Harv, I posted this for you.  Nothing to say?  See how close that knee is to the ground?  Me neither.




    Hey dummy,  this picture also shows how far out of bounds Geno is and that ball crossed sideline about a yard prior to picture ...  dimwit.



    And?  Why do you think that is at all relevant?  You cannot see what yard line he is at in that picture, but you can see that his knee didn't touch down as some doofus claimed.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from coolade2. Show coolade2's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to MeadowlandMike's comment:

    In response to coolade2's comment:

    In response to MeadowlandMike's comment:

    Hey Harv, I posted this for you.  Nothing to say?  See how close that knee is to the ground?  Me neither.




    Hey dummy,  this picture also shows how far out of bounds Geno is and that ball crossed sideline about a yard prior to picture ...  dimwit.



    And?  Why do you think that is at all relevant?  You cannot see what yard line he is at in that picture, but you can see that his knee didn't touch down as some doofus claimed.




    Ok ...  glutton for punishment,  look at defenders right foot , from the video you can see his rifght foot at or about the 11 yard line.  If you draw a line diagonal through his right leg ,  genos ball crossed the sideline around or befeor the 11 yard line.... 

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to agcsbill's comment:

    Game was played in New Jersey/New York.  'nuff said!




     

    TUCK RULE...NUFF SAID

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from jetsbarf. Show jetsbarf's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to 42AND46's comment:

    In response to agcsbill's comment:

    Game was played in New Jersey/New York.  'nuff said!




     

    TUCK RULE...NUFF SAID




    Giants suck...nuff said...

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to coolade2's comment:

    In response to MeadowlandMike's comment:

    In response to coolade2's comment:

     http://www.boston.com/sports/blogs/goingdeep/2013/11/patriots_panthers_read_option.html

     

     

    The article is about QB running but scroll down to the video of Geno Smith running for a first down against the Patriots...  He is like a yard or 2 short then as he is falling down he extends ball forwrd out of bounds...  How does this get him a first down....?




    Pretty simple.  The ball was past the down marker before anything touched out of bounds.  It's just that easy.  It seems that Belichick agreed.  Otherwise he would have challenged it.  I do love to see Pats fans crying about refs, though.  I can't believe nobody here is crying about the non call of the pushing on the FG attempt vs the Saints or the non call on the obvious PI against Tony G when the Falcons were about to score their 21st point in a 3 minute timespan.




    YOu're  quite wrong ... and most certainly an idiot ...



    Actually, he's right, sorry to say. The ball isn't out of bounds until either the ball or the player touches the ground out of bounds.  The ball is spotted on the yard line where it is when either it or the player first touches the ground out of bounds. 

     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from coolade2. Show coolade2's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    you might want to read the whole thread....

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to coolade2's comment:

    you might want to read the whole thread....



    I have.  Folks are misinterpreting the rule.  The play isn't dead until the player or the ball touches a boundary line (or the ground beyond it). Smith and the ball in his possession were both inbounds until they hit the ground out of bounds. Forward progress is where the ball is at the moment contact is made with the boundary line or the ground beyond it. The phrases in purple are the relevant rules.  The officials called it correctly. 

     

     

     

    Section 22 Out of Bounds and Inbounds Spot PLAYER OR OFFICIAL OUT OF BOUNDS
    Article 1 A player or an Official is Out of Bounds when he touches:

    1. (a)  A boundary line; or

    2. (b)  Anything other than a player, an official, or a pylon on or outside a boundary line.

    BALL OUT OF BOUNDS

    Article 2 The Ball is Out of Bounds when: (a) the runner is out of bounds;

    (b) while in player possession, it touches a boundary line or anything other than a player or an official on or outside such line; or

    (c) a loose ball touches a boundary line or anything on or outside such line.

    INBOUNDS SPOT

    Article 3 The Inbounds Spot is a spot 70 feet 9 inches in from the sideline on the yard line passing through the spot where the ball or a runner is out of bounds between the goal lines.

    Under certain conditions, the ball is dead in a side zone or has been placed there as the result of a penalty. See 7-6-2.

    Note: Ordinarily the out-of-bounds spot is the spot where the ball crossed a sideline. However, if a ball, while still within a boundary line, is declared out of bounds because of touching anything that is out of bounds, the out-of-bounds spot is on the yard line through the spot of the ball at the instant of such touching.

    A.R. 3.9 A.R. 3.10 A.R. 3.11

    A.R. 3.12

    Section 23

    Runner A1, with his feet inbounds, touches an official who is touching a sideline. Ruling: Inbounds.

    Runner A1, with his feet inbounds, touches any player who is touching a sideline. Ruling: Inbounds.

    Runner A1 fumbles backwards, and the loose ball touches a defensive player B1 who is standing on sideline, and then ball rebounds into the field of play where B1 falls on it.
    Ruling: Dead ball and out of bounds as soon as the loose ball touches the player on sideline. Offensive team’s ball at inbounds spot. Start game clock on the ready.

    Runner A1 touches the defensive team’s pylon with any part of his body.
    Ruling: Not out of bounds. The runner is not out of bounds until he touches anything other than a player, an official, or a pylon on or outside the boundary line. Position of the ball is determined by its position when the runner touches out of bounds.

    Pass 

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from rtuinila. Show rtuinila's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to coolade2's comment:

    In response to rtuinila's comment:

    In response to CatfishHunter's comment:

    I remember that play.   I think a lot of us believe the refs got that wrong.  There are still too many errors made in today's NFL.  It's better than it was years ago, but still unacceptable.

    Here's what the NFL RuleBook says on the Smith play:

    ************************************************************************

    Rule 3 Section 22: Out of Bounds and Inbounds Spot

    INBOUNDS SPOT Article 3 The Inbounds Spot is a spot 70 feet 9 inches in from the sideline on the yard line passing through the spot where the ball or a runner is out of bounds between the goal lines. Under certain conditions, the ball is dead in a side zone or has been placed there as the result of a penalty. See 7-6-2. Note: Ordinarily the out-of-bounds spot is the spot where the ball crossed a sideline. However, if a ball, while still within a boundary line, is declared out of bounds because of touching anything that is out of bounds, the out-of-bounds spot is on the yard line through the spot of the ball at the instant of such touching.   ***************************************************************************************************************** I highlighted the relevant section.   No exceptions applied to this play.  It should have been marked short of the first down.

     



    I don't think you have that right. I believe the ball gets spotted where it touches something that is out of bounds. That could be the ground, a player, a down marker or anything that is already out of bounds. The rule you cited here explains where the ball is placed after the play is over. Case in point, someone can run the entire length of the field with the ball held over the sideline and as long as they pull the ball back over the field of play when they cross the goal line, it is a touchdown. Also all the receivers making those highlight reel catches by leaning out of bounds with both feet still in bounds would be declared incomplete.




    This is wrong, since all players would leap as they approached the sideline not merely hold the ball out.



    If you watched actual football games you would see that they often do just that, leap as they get to the sidelines while draging their tackler.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from rtuinila. Show rtuinila's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to coolade2's comment:

    In response to CatfishHunter's comment:

    rtuinila had the best example.   You could run the entire length of the field (before the goal line) with your feet in bounds, holding the ball over the end line.  You'd still be in bounds and the play is not dead.




    fine .... since he didnt go out of bounds .  But when you do go OB, the ball comes back to wher it crossed the sideline plane.



    No it doesn't. It goes to where the ball was when the a part of the players body hits the ground out of bounds. Just like it goes to where the ball is when a ball carriers knee hits the ground.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from rtuinila. Show rtuinila's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to coolade2's comment:

    The other example of the highlight reel catch doesn't work either...  since the receiver doesn't have possession until he catches it (still inbounds) ... but when they mark the ball it is at the feet, not where the ball and receiver land out of bounds.

    My example was when the receivers feet are inbounds but they lean over the sideline, out of bounds, to catch the ball. The ball is not over the field of play when it is caught. And it works perfectly fine.


    Actually it should be marked where the ball is when either the ball or the player touch the ground out of bounds.

    Think of it this way, the ball is always marked where it was when the play went dead. the play doesn't go dead till something touches out of bounds or a part of the body other than the foot or the hand touches the ground.

     
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