Final Debate (Welker vs Amendola/Edelman)

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  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Final Debate (Welker vs Amendola/Edelman)

    In response to DeadAhead's comment:

    In response to rkarp's comment:

    In response to fl+adam,'s comment:

    I wouldn't be suprised to see the 2 lines start getting made over.  Volmer, Mankins, Wilfolk, Kelly...all underperformed their salary in my mind.  Injuries happen, but that is part of how the football economics work.  I bet Folk gets extended at a relative bargain, similar to how Brady has done recently.  Volmer and/or Mankins need to be next.  Step up or step out.  Cannon can replace either.  Draft a few linemen this year and play some hardball.



    Vollmer just signed this offseason.

    Mankins I agree could be a re do, but he is owed a lot of money still and his last contract negotiaion was contentious.

    Wilfork is touchy. He will be 33 years old next year, and is owed $11.6M. If the Pats renegotiate Wilfork to 3 years $3M and convert that $11.6 owed to a bonus and ammortize it over the 3 years, he is still on the books for $4.8M for the next 3 years including his 34 and 35 years old seasons...I would do it to save the $6M



    Barring them not wanting Wilfork and Mankins back next year, which I don't believe, they can cut each and then draw up a new, more reasonable contract, if I am not mistake.

    I don't see Vince against something like that this point of his career.

     




    I implore you to stop embarassing yourself. You proclaim yourself an expert on the cap, but you clearly dont understand it. It is ok that you do not understand it, but stop proclaiming you are an expert.

    Cutting Vince will result in a dead money hit of $3.6M. It will save $8M against the cap.

    Cutting Mankins is a $10.5M cap hit

    Not a good idea to cut either one...

    Re neg both is the best plausible financial situation, but they are both advanced age and both on the down side of their great careers. Do you really want to extend them?

    The PAts as of today have about $2M in cap space next year...they need to sign rookies, they like to carry $5M plus in season, and Wendell, Spikes and Talib need to be addressed.

    I have to think they need to trin/restructure to find $20M...I asked you before, how would you do it?

     
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    Re: Final Debate (Welker vs Amendola/Edelman)

    In response to rkarp's comment:

    In response to DeadAhead's comment:

    In response to rkarp's comment:

    In response to fl+adam,'s comment:

    I wouldn't be suprised to see the 2 lines start getting made over.  Volmer, Mankins, Wilfolk, Kelly...all underperformed their salary in my mind.  Injuries happen, but that is part of how the football economics work.  I bet Folk gets extended at a relative bargain, similar to how Brady has done recently.  Volmer and/or Mankins need to be next.  Step up or step out.  Cannon can replace either.  Draft a few linemen this year and play some hardball.



    Vollmer just signed this offseason.

    Mankins I agree could be a re do, but he is owed a lot of money still and his last contract negotiaion was contentious.

    Wilfork is touchy. He will be 33 years old next year, and is owed $11.6M. If the Pats renegotiate Wilfork to 3 years $3M and convert that $11.6 owed to a bonus and ammortize it over the 3 years, he is still on the books for $4.8M for the next 3 years including his 34 and 35 years old seasons...I would do it to save the $6M



    Barring them not wanting Wilfork and Mankins back next year, which I don't believe, they can cut each and then draw up a new, more reasonable contract, if I am not mistake.

    I don't see Vince against something like that this point of his career.

     




    I implore you to stop embarassing yourself. You proclaim yourself an expert on the cap, but you clearly dont understand it. It is ok that you do not understand it, but stop proclaiming you are an expert.

    Cutting Vince will result in a dead money hit of $3.6M. It will save $8M against the cap.

    Cutting Mankins is a $10.5M cap hit

    Not a good idea to cut either one...

    Re neg both is the best plausible financial situation, but they are both advanced age and both on the down side of their great careers. Do you really want to extend them?

    The PAts as of today have about $2M in cap space next year...they need to sign rookies, they like to carry $5M plus in season, and Wendell, Spikes and Talib need to be addressed.

    I have to think they need to trin/restructure to find $20M...I asked you before, how would you do it?

    Well said RKARP,
    Pats clearly are not in very good shape at this moment with the salary cap. Not sure how deadballs has such a hard time dealing with it. Can you imagine him dealing with a real "life" obstacle? He can't even deal with problems in F'N fantasy land.

     
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    Re: Final Debate (Welker vs Amendola/Edelman)

    In response to DeadAhead's comment:

    In response to 42AND46's comment:

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

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    hey PCM this is pretty cool. A lot of work



    Dude, don't be dumb. That has been on the interwebs for years.  He didn't create it.




    did I say he created it?

     
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    Re: Final Debate (Welker vs Amendola/Edelman)

    In response to fl+adam,'s comment:

    Just my 2c and observations.

    Barring anything drastic injury wise, and with everything projected, edelmen will have 16 games played, amendola 12, welker 13.  If Amendola and Eledmen perform as to their season average, edelmen will have 1050 yards on 102 receptions with 10.3 average yards per catch and 7 or 8 touchdowns.  Amendola will have 695 yards on 61 receptions for a 11.4 average and 2 touch downs.  Welker will finish how he is now, with 778 yards on 73 recptions for a 10.7 average and 10 touch downs.

     

    My first time predicting pretty darn close.  Edelmen finished with 105 rec for 1056 yards.  Great yearJulian.

    What I think, Edelmen was more durable then either of them, with Welker adapting to his new quarterback and system faster than Amendola, hense the receptions and targets are higher, but the percentage of rec to targets is virtually identical.  Amendola is slightly more dynamic(higher yards per catch, but Welker is more trusted by Manning(hense more TD's).  Edelmen has basically copied Welker in everything except TD's.  HAving both better deal then just Welker.




     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Final Debate (Welker vs Amendola/Edelman)

    In response to fl+adam,'s comment:

    In response to fl+adam,'s comment:

    Just my 2c and observations.

    Barring anything drastic injury wise, and with everything projected, edelmen will have 16 games played, amendola 12, welker 13.  If Amendola and Eledmen perform as to their season average, edelmen will have 1050 yards on 102 receptions with 10.3 average yards per catch and 7 or 8 touchdowns.  Amendola will have 695 yards on 61 receptions for a 11.4 average and 2 touch downs.  Welker will finish how he is now, with 778 yards on 73 recptions for a 10.7 average and 10 touch downs.

     

    My first time predicting pretty darn close.  Edelmen finished with 105 rec for 1056 yards.  Great yearJulian.

    What I think, Edelmen was more durable then either of them, with Welker adapting to his new quarterback and system faster than Amendola, hense the receptions and targets are higher, but the percentage of rec to targets is virtually identical.  Amendola is slightly more dynamic(higher yards per catch, but Welker is more trusted by Manning(hense more TD's).  Edelmen has basically copied Welker in everything except TD's.  HAving both better deal then just Welker.







    Again explain why was it Both Amendola and Edelman or just Welker? I'm still not convinced that they wouldn't have signed Edelman even if they went with Welker over Amendola. If you look at it, they waited to sign Edelman until long after they signed Amendola so rationally speaking they would have resigned Edelman for his PR abilities regardless of which other WR they signed because he had value on STs and was dirt cheap. Given the rooks performances there was a high likelyhood you would have seen Edelman as the #2 if they signed Welker so he still would have been on the field making plays all year too. So once again it's not Amedola and Edelman or Welker it was Amendola or Welker with Edelman.

     
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    Re: Final Debate (Welker vs Amendola/Edelman)

    debate is so over.

    Edelman.

     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: Final Debate (Welker vs Amendola/Edelman)

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

    Again explain why was it Both Amendola and Edelman or just Welker? I'm still not convinced that they wouldn't have signed Edelman even if they went with Welker over Amendola. If you look at it, they waited to sign Edelman until long after they signed Amendola so rationally speaking they would have resigned Edelman for his PR abilities regardless of which other WR they signed because he had value on STs and was dirt cheap. Given the rooks performances there was a high likelyhood you would have seen Edelman as the #2 if they signed Welker so he still would have been on the field making plays all year too. So once again it's not Amedola and Edelman or Welker it was Amendola or Welker with Edelman.



    This debate is getting comical watching people scramble concerning Amendola not panning out to be anything close to what a lot of people here said he was going to be. Yesterday was another case of Amendola not being on the field a lot and once again Amendola dropped another big pass that would have been a big possitive play in the game.

    Yeah, it was always Amendola vs Welker, Edelman was never in the discussion. Another thing that is comical is people saying Edelman/Amedola is better then Welker.  LOL!  What?  Would the Pats have let Edelman go if Amendola was never signed and Welker accepted the Pats offer?  I seriously doubt it, Edelman would have still been with the Pats.  Maybe the real discussion should be is Edelman/Amendola better then what Welker/Edelman would have been?  I take Welker/Edelman all day long over Edelman/Amendola.

    Now we could even take the discussion a bit further.  There were reports that the Pats signed Amendola prior to Welker declining the Pats offer.  Had Welker accepted the Pats offer then it is very possible Edelman could have been let go.  So at this point we would be discussing Amendola vs Edelman.  Clearly Edelman has been better then Amendola. Welker > Amendola and Edelman > Amendola.  The best option would have been to left Amendola alone and kept Welker... Welker/Edelman would have been far better then Edelman/Amendola.  Wow!!!  Keeping Welker would have been better then signing Amendola.... Just as some of us said clear back in March.

     

     
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    Re: Final Debate (Welker vs Amendola/Edelman)

    well we will find out who made the right move if the teams face in a couple weeks. Edelman has obviously far surpassed expectations and Amendola has been inconsistent, but has won them a few games this year.

     
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    Re: Final Debate (Welker vs Amendola/Edelman)

    In response to Cloudyandrain's comment:

    debate is so over.

    Edelman.




    stating the obvious, Edelman may not be here next year.  A HEALTHY WW would have out played DA here this year.

     
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    Re: Final Debate (Welker vs Amendola/Edelman)

    In response to TSWFAN's comment:

     


    stating the obvious, Edelman may not be here next year.  A HEALTHY WW would have out played DA here this year.

     




    Yup!

    Oh, wait... Welker outplayed Amendola this year.



    Wow, Amendola just 33 snaps out of 72 yesterday.  Even Thompkins had more, 34 out of 72.

     
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    Re: Final Debate (Welker vs Amendola/Edelman)

    I always thought the question was should the Pats had given Welker the 8 million for 3 years that he asked for or could the Pats replace his production for less.

    Also, is Welker worth 8 million a year for three years at his age?

    After the Pats franchised WW at 9.5 million did BB feel that he just got shook down and wasn't going to let it happen again?

    Did Wes hurt his chances of Bill compromising by making public remarks like the one about putting it in Bill's face?  If Bill put up with that it would undermine his ability to manage.

    Bottom line to me is that the Pat's replaced WW's production with a guy making veteran minimum plus incentives.

    If reframing the question in order to try to win a debate is the goal, keep arguing.

     
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    Re: Final Debate (Welker vs Amendola/Edelman)

    In response to bostatewarrior's comment:

    I always thought the question was should the Pats had given Welker the 8 million for 3 years that he asked for or could the Pats replace his production for less.

    Also, is Welker worth 8 million a year for three years at his age?

    After the Pats franchised WW at 9.5 million did BB feel that he just got shook down and wasn't going to let it happen again?

    Did Wes hurt his chances of Bill compromising by making public remarks like the one about putting it in Bill's face?  If Bill put up with that it would undermine his ability to manage.

    Bottom line to me is that the Pat's replaced WW's production with a guy making veteran minimum plus incentives.

    If reframing the question in order to try to win a debate is the goal, keep arguing.



    Did Welker want 3 years at 8mil, yep but that's not what he end up getting. You have to look at what he ended up getting from Den as the comparison for what he made this year. Then you have to factor in what the next player on the production list ended up getting since Edelman didn't replace himself. So the question is was the savings of a mil (Amendola vs Welker) this year worth the cost in production and future cap implications compared to if they signed him to begin with? In otherwords, Edelman was most likely on the team regardless of who they signed so the question is the added salaries of Amedola/Edelman compared to Welker/Edelman and what the production difference would have been otherwise you have to remove the one player who would have been the constant in Edelman for the conversation all together because they didn't sign Edelman to replace Welker they signed Amendola to replace Welker, Jonathan Kraft already has said that

     
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    Re: Final Debate (Welker vs Amendola/Edelman)

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

    In response to bostatewarrior's comment:

    I always thought the question was should the Pats had given Welker the 8 million for 3 years that he asked for or could the Pats replace his production for less.

    Also, is Welker worth 8 million a year for three years at his age?

    After the Pats franchised WW at 9.5 million did BB feel that he just got shook down and wasn't going to let it happen again?

    Did Wes hurt his chances of Bill compromising by making public remarks like the one about putting it in Bill's face?  If Bill put up with that it would undermine his ability to manage.

    Bottom line to me is that the Pat's replaced WW's production with a guy making veteran minimum plus incentives.

    If reframing the question in order to try to win a debate is the goal, keep arguing.



    Did Welker want 3 years at 8mil, yep but that's not what he end up getting. You have to look at what he ended up getting from Den as the comparison for what he made this year. Then you have to factor in what the next player on the production list ended up getting since Edelman didn't replace himself. So the question is was the savings of a mil (Amendola vs Welker) this year worth the cost in production and future cap implications compared to if they signed him to begin with? In otherwords, Edelman was most likely on the team regardless of who they signed so the question is the added salaries of Amedola/Edelman compared to Welker/Edelman and what the production difference would have been otherwise you have to remove the one player who would have been the constant in Edelman for the conversation all together because they didn't sign Edelman to replace Welker they signed Amendola to replace Welker, Jonathan Kraft already has said that



    Engineers! :).  Not just numbers.  Don't overlook WW's public comments.  Un-Patriot-ic.  I think he paid a price for that.

    i really believe that Wes thought he was more special than he is.  Love the guy.  Appreciate what he did here.  But he is replaceable.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: Final Debate (Welker vs Amendola/Edelman)

    In response to DeadAhead's comment:

    So what? Resting Amendola in a winnable game in the rain where you're going to run more is a good thing for the team.

    Vereen didn't get his usual snaps either.

    It's like you're angry with how BB coaches and manages this team.  Are you sure you're a Pats fan, TFB12?  

    Very odd to see such anger when positive things occur with our team when they don't include bloated stats from Brady or Welkie.

    Leave our fanbase now. You're an embarrassment.



    Hahaha!  Hahaha!  Let me catch my breath before I start typing again.

    Okay, got it.

    What is your excuse for Amendola last Sunday vs the Ravens when Amendola only played 32 snaps out of 69?  That probably wasn't a very important game, right?

    Of course I am a Pats fan, just responding to your thread here.  Do you have to lie and have an agenda to be a Pats fan?

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: Final Debate (Welker vs Amendola/Edelman)

    A couple cents of opinion from this peanut gallery:

    #1 - Edelman more than served his purpose being the replacement for Welker.

    #2 - Amendola turned out to be more the Edelman of last year who took snaps to give Welker a breather.

    #3 - Edelman did far more being a punt returner than Welker.

    #4 - Edelman received NO benefit from having the two headed TE monster Welker had while here.  He was, basically, the only threat Brady had from the WR corps.  If Gronk were still here, hmmmm.

     
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    Re: Final Debate (Welker vs Amendola/Edelman)

    I never dare say it while Welker was with patriots, but he's a choke artist. We'd have Four championships if he didn't have the dropsies in big games. 

     
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    Re: Final Debate (Welker vs Amendola/Edelman)

    In response to agcsbill's comment:

    A couple cents of opinion from this peanut gallery:

    #1 - Edelman more than served his purpose being the replacement for Welker.

    #2 - Amendola turned out to be more the Edelman of last year who took snaps to give Welker a breather.

    #3 - Edelman did far more being a punt returner than Welker.

    #4 - Edelman received NO benefit from having the two headed TE monster Welker had while here.  He was, basically, the only threat Brady had from the WR corps.  If Gronk were still here, hmmmm.



    Your 2 cents is worth 37 dollars and change

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: Final Debate (Welker vs Amendola/Edelman)

    In response to agcsbill's comment:

    A couple cents of opinion from this peanut gallery:

    #1 - Edelman more than served his purpose being the replacement for Welker.

    #2 - Amendola turned out to be more the Edelman of last year who took snaps to give Welker a breather.

    #3 - Edelman did far more being a punt returner than Welker.

    #4 - Edelman received NO benefit from having the two headed TE monster Welker had while here.  He was, basically, the only threat Brady had from the WR corps.  If Gronk were still here, hmmmm.




    1.  But Amendola was supposed to be Welkers replacement.  many people here said Amendola was going to be so much better then Welker.

    2. Welker/Edelman would have been better then Edelman/Amendola

    3. No disagreement from me.  I don't believe Welker really liked returning punts anyway.

    4.  Double edged sword.  Last couple years Gronk and Hernandez were swapping spots on the injured bench, Gronk did play durting this season.  Do other receivers open up other receivers.. yes.  But does also lack of receivers allow other receivers the ball more?  Yes.  Both Welker and Edelman got more receptions because of both of these.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from TSWFAN. Show TSWFAN's posts

    Re: Final Debate (Welker vs Amendola/Edelman)

    In response to bostatewarrior's comment:

    I always thought the question was should the Pats had given Welker the 8 million for 3 years that he asked for or could the Pats replace his production for less.

    Also, is Welker worth 8 million a year for three years at his age?

    After the Pats franchised WW at 9.5 million did BB feel that he just got shook down and wasn't going to let it happen again?

    Did Wes hurt his chances of Bill compromising by making public remarks like the one about putting it in Bill's face?  If Bill put up with that it would undermine his ability to manage.

    Bottom line to me is that the Pat's replaced WW's production with a guy making veteran minimum plus incentives.

    If reframing the question in order to try to win a debate is the goal, keep arguing.



    well spoken.

     
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    Re: Final Debate (Welker vs Amendola/Edelman)

    In response to pymus1's comment:

    I never dare say it while Welker was with patriots, but he's a choke artist. We'd have Four championships if he didn't have the dropsies in big games. 




    don't say it then!!!  REMEMBER ww contributed mightily to getting us into SB's 

     
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