Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?

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    Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?

    In Response to Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?:
    The Texans proved that you can drastically improve a defense by good drafting (DE J.J. Watt and OLB Brooks Reed) and adding a few quality free agents (CB Johnathan Joseph and S Danieal Manning). I think we'll be fine.
    Posted by digger0862


    did they also have a new DC? I don't know the answer....
     
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    Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?

    In Response to Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?:
    did they also have a new DC? I don't know the answer....
    Posted by anonymis

    Yes, they cleaned house by firing most of their defensive coaches and then they hired Wade Phillips as their defensive coordinator who brought in a completely new scheme.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?

    In Response to Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?:
    The Texans proved that you can drastically improve a defense by good drafting (DE J.J. Watt and OLB Brooks Reed) and adding a few quality free agents (CB Johnathan Joseph and S Danieal Manning). I think we'll be fine.
    Posted by digger0862


    Good point.
     
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    Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?

    In Response to Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?:
    In Response to Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3? : Yes, they cleaned house by firing most of their defensive coaches and then they hired Wade Phillips as their defensive coordinator who brought in a completely new scheme.
    Posted by digger0862


    but BB would never give anyone else that much control which is partly a problem becuz our D has been bad since 07
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?

    Post season starting linemen; Wilfork, Warren and Love
    Starting linebackers; Mayo, Spikes, Nink, Anderson

    That's a 3/4; like Quahog said, Belichick used the 2/4/5 early in the season before new guys like Andre Carter and Anderson had a chance to learn the system completely and most very likely gamesmanship.  He had Brace and Deadrick on the PUP and had Gerrard Warren "retire" until midway through the season and he used up the expendable meat like Haynesworth to keep the D linemen fresh for the second half push.

    Just because Nincovich drops into a 3 point stance it doesn't make him a defensive lineman.

    We need to draft a D tackle, Gerrard Warren was our second most dominant D lineman after Wilfork and he can't play max minutes and he won't last forever.

    Front seven next year and until BB retires: 3/4... with any number of nickel packages, but the base will always start with the 3/4.
     
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    Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?

    In Response to Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?:
    In Response to Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3? : I agree we need  quality athletic  depth on the inside. based on where the Pat's are drafting in the 1st round they may have the opportunity to pick a versatile interior lineman/end with good athletic ability to complement Wilfork. i am not sure if he is going to be on the board at 27 but Fletcher Cox from Miss. St. would be the ideal choice. He can play inside at tackle in the 4-3 and can also lineup at end in the 3-4. Scouts say he can be a 3 down player.
    Posted by jri37

    Hopefully there in a run on offensive players early in the draft so we have a lot to choose from later...

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?

    The base was 4/3. This is voodoo. We are back to, "just because they are lined up with 4 down lineman 60% of the time, doesn't mean they are a 43 defense" nonsense. This is football misinformation and does a disservice to people who come to a forum to understand more about football. 

    BB ... himself ... said he was running the 43 and that it wasn't a big difference, and that he ran 43 as his base in 2001 and 2003. He said he would be running it this season ... and they ran it to the end. 

    NE ran 43 more in the Superbowl, and more throughout the whole season. 

    They used a little 3/4 as the season wore on, but they were 43 under all the way this season. 

    Why some people can't get over BB running the 43 is beyond me. It's just a formation .... not a religious cult. God isn't watching if you call a spade a spade. 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?

    The opening play of the Broncos playoff game there were 3 defensive tackles and Anderson and Ninck outside dropped back into coverage...  They ran this formation throughout the playoffs, occasionally they ran the 2/4/5 to give the big guys a breather, thats all...  I suggest you go back and watch any playoff game you like.

    Maybe you can see the three big guys, over 300 pounds, up front, you can tell the difference because their numbered usually in the 90's.

    I love this revisionist history, Belichick never ran the ball, they've always passed their way to a championship, Belichick didn't change the NFL with his 3/4 defense... it was all our imaginations...

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Dessalines. Show Dessalines's posts

    Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?

    In Response to Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?:
    Good post, Prolate.  Bellichick stated that he used the 4-3 this year "because it was easier to teach". Two years ago BB said that it was getting harder to find college DE's to play a 3-4 OLB because nearly half the NFL teams are now employing the 3-4. Three years ago he said it was hard to project which college DE's would project into good OLB's in a 3-4 because there is no film on them playing that role. The common thread of all his comments is that his decision is totally personnel related. Who are the best available players to add for the next season between the draft and free agencies? If BB can find some impact players available this year that will improve the team, he will trade, sign or draft them. That was his strategy with adding Haynesworth, Carter, Anderson and Ellis.  He picked up talented players that he thought could soldify the front 7 and schemed around the players.  As the season progresses you can coach them up into more complicated schemes and game plan accordingly to specific opponents. Since there's now a lot of competition in the draft for the college DE's who project into 3-4 OLB's AND they are a risky pick, he may not go that way in this year's draft. Then again he might. BB loves smart veterans who can adapt quickly to new schemes. It will be interesting to see who he signs and drafts.
    Posted by Quahogger



    This sounds right.  Good post.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?

    In Response to Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?:
    The opening play of the Broncos playoff game there were 3 defensive tackles and Anderson and Ninck outside dropped back into coverage...  They ran this formation throughout the playoffs, occasionally they ran the 2/4/5 to give the big guys a breather, thats all...  I suggest you go back and watch any playoff game you like. Maybe you can see the three big guys, over 300 pounds, up front, you can tell the difference because their numbered usually in the 90's. I love this revisionist history, Belichick never ran the ball, they've always passed their way to a championship, Belichick didn't change the NFL with his 3/4 defense... it was all our imaginations...
    Posted by wozzy


    I was refering to the first half of the SB game, not the Bronco's game. I did rewatch the SB game many times over, and the Pats were exclusively 4 down lineman for the first half. You can say Nink with a hand on the ground is not a down lineman, but they did play 4 on the line.
    Yes, they did change up for the 2nd half, but the first half was 4/3.
     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?

    When Belichick drafts a true defensive end, and by true I mean 6'5" 290 pound speed rusher who can do nothing else but rush upfield I will concede he has switched to a 4/3.  Ninc and Anderson are linebackers...
     
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    Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?

    In Response to Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?:
    When Belichick drafts a true defensive end, and by true I mean 6'5" 290 pound speed rusher who can do nothing else but rush upfield I will concede he has switched to a 4/3.  Ninc and Anderson are linebackers...
    Posted by wozzy


    you dont have to concede anything. Just pointing out you were mistaken. I dont think Anderson has played a down in his pro career at LB.
     
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    Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?


    Heres a link to Super Bowl highlights, in the opening 2 seconds you'll see Anderson playing up in a two point stance playing linebacker... don't say something that will instantly make make you look foolish with just the click of a mouse.  Just because a linebacker drops into a 3 point stance it doesn't make them a defensive end.  
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from KyleCleric2. Show KyleCleric2's posts

    Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?

    Anderson is a far superior 3-4 OLB than he is as a 4-3 DE. A big part of the defense stepping up at the end of the season was getting us back into the 3-4 with Anderson and Nink at OLB.
     
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    Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?

    In Response to Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IZ5gLsp7tM Heres a link to Super Bowl highlights, in the opening 2 seconds you'll see Anderson playing up in a two point stance playing linebacker... don't say something that will instantly make make you look foolish with just the click of a mouse.  Just because a linebacker drops into a 3 point stance it doesn't make them a defensive end.  
    Posted by wozzy


    Woozy,

    Just because a DE stands up doesnt make him a LB. Try to do some research on the topic and you will see you are incorrect.
    I suppose you are slotting Carter as a LB as well? Same size as Anderson. Same position. I will say Carter tried to play LB in the past, but I will also say Anderson never played a down at LB for the Bears or Pats
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?

    In Response to Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?:
    In Response to Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3? : Woozy, Just because a DE stands up doesnt make him a LB. Try to do some research on the topic and you will see you are incorrect. I suppose you are slotting Carter as a LB as well? Same size as Anderson. Same position. I will say Carter tried to play LB in the past, but I will also say Anderson never played a down at LB for the Bears or Pats
    Posted by rkarp

    Defensive ends typically don't stand up unless they're playing some zone blitz which requires a D lineman to drop back into coverage, that's how Vince Wilfork gets interceptions... it doesn't make big Vince is a linebacker.  Don't be absurd..

    Carter prefers to play in a 3 point stance, that's well documented.  You said Anderson doesn't play linebacker, I provided proof that Anderson plays standing up in a 3/4 with a youtube link which you summarily ignored because it would mean you are wrong.  

    Of course anyone can go back and watch every playoff game starting with Denver and see that we ran the 3/4, in fact I started a thread right after the game titled "To the haters of our defense" to rub it in all the noses of  those who said we had switched to a 4/3 and that our D was terrible right after that game.

    Do yourself a favor and don't say anything else, better yet go to the Patriots roster online and compare Gerrard Warren, a 3/4 defensive end to Anderson and tell me if you spot any differences...

     
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    Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?

    In Response to Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?:
    Anderson is a far superior 3-4 OLB than he is as a 4-3 DE. A big part of the defense stepping up at the end of the season was getting us back into the 3-4 with Anderson and Nink at OLB.
    Posted by KyleCleric2


    Yep.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?

    In Response to Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?:
    In Response to Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3? : Defensive ends typically don't stand up unless they're playing some zone blitz which requires a D lineman to drop back into coverage, that's how Vince Wilfork gets interceptions... it doesn't make big Vince is a linebacker.  Don't be absurd.. Carter prefers to play in a 3 point stance, that's well documented.  You said Anderson doesn't play linebacker, I provided proof that Anderson plays standing up in a 3/4 with a youtube link which you summarily ignored because it would mean you are wrong.   Of course anyone can go back and watch every playoff game starting with Denver and see that we ran the 3/4, in fact I started a thread right after the game titled "To the haters of our defense" to rub it in all the noses of  those who said we had switched to a 4/3 and that our D was terrible right after that game. Do yourself a favor and don't say anything else, better yet go to the Patriots roster online and compare Gerrard Warren, a 3/4 defensive end to Anderson and tell me if you spot any differences...
    Posted by wozzy


    Anderson has never dropped back into coverage in his life. Just because he is standing up does not make him a LB.
    Warren and Deadrick are bigger than Anderson and Carter, but Anderson and Carter are still DE's...
    I am not saying that the Pats didnt play 3/4 defense. I am saying that in the SB, they played the entire first half in a 4/3 defense. White played most of the first half as the 3rd LB...
    Simple as that Wozzy. You dont have to get beligerent because I disagree with you and you are wrong 
     
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    Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmVbSHYH8DI

    At the 1:25 mark of the Pats Broncos game witness Anderson fall back into coverage...

    Thanks for playing.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?

    And just because Nink puts his hand on the ground doesn't make him an end! We play 3-4 with 4-3 here and there and some 2-4-5. Bringing back the 3-4 going into the playoffs jumop started our defense.
     
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    Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?

    In response to "Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?":
    And just because Nink puts his hand on the ground doesn't make him an end! We play 3-4 with 4-3 here and there and some 2-4-5. Bringing back the 3-4 going into the playoffs jumop started our defense. Posted by TrueChamp
    But I didn't say Nink was an end. I said the entire first half of the SB the Pats played a 4/3 defense. Woozy said they aged entirely a 3/4. Woozy is entirely incorrect.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?

    The first number indicate how many defensive tackles/linemen are on the field.

    The second number indicates how many linebackers are on the field.

    The third number indicates how many players are in the defensive backfield.

    So this argument has progressed from "BB is changing his base defense to a 4/3" to "he ran a 4 man front a bunch of times?"  

    Surely an indicator that he will cut every outside linebacker on his squad (Ninc, Anderson, Carter, Cunningham etc) since they no longer fit in this 4/3 system and he will start drafting defensive ends (JJ Watt, Carlos Dunlap, Jason Pierre Paul) like he had every opportunity to in over a decade worth of drafting?  

    Also we will no longer see any two and three man fronts again because he is moving to the 4/3, so from now on only four man fronts with all four athletic D linemen rushing upfield and dominating the opposing O line across from it exactly like the Giants run.  By that rationale Vince Wilfork will never line up at nose tackle again...

    Again you may see this as arguing semantics about whether Anderson is an end or linebacker, but if you ask the offensive lineman across from him whether Anderson has the skill set to hold up at the line of scrimmage when that 330 pound tackle comes crashing into his 250 pound frame on an off tackle run play than I say it really does make a difference.  

    The Pats defense didn't really start improving until 3/4's of the season was over and BB starting running with one more defensive tackle on the field consistently, a three man front.  Not until he pulled Warren out of retirement and Brace and Deadrick off the PUP did they start getting into the opposing teams backfield by crushing the pocket, did the outside linebackers like Anderson and Ninc really get freed up to sack the QB and did we started seeing the defense stop the opposing offense on downs more consistently.

    The reason I suggested on an earlier thread that this was planned, that BB was running the vanilla defense early on, was because we saw the 3/4 during pre-season and it overwhelming the opposition. 

    The regular season starts and we run this 2/4/5 with two D linemen, Carter and Ninc (or Anderson) playing down in a three point stance on the ends, two standing linebackers behind them with a full defensive backfield.  This defense was ran all over, passed all over, it got no pass rush and was the ridicule of every NFL analyst from A-Z.  But when they got down near the end zone very often BB would put the 3 man front back in and hold other teams to a field goal which kept scoring relatively low, so even though opposing teams were racking up yards on us they didn't score a lot.

    He was keeping his 300 pounders healthy and ready for the playoffs, even then, we still needed more for the Giants power run game.  BB needs to use a #1 pick on a D tackle and maybe two. 

    The front of Seymour, Warren and Washington or Wilfork was the main reason our defense was so dominant during the early Super Bowl runs, the reason we got off the field, got so many team sacks and caused so much havoc.  

    BB doesn't have enough true defensive linemen to run a 3/4 so I don't know what makes you think he'll switch to a 4/3, it would take a complete makeover, it won't happen.

    Saying BB plays linebackers at end to create a four man front is a world of difference than saying he is switching to a 4/3.  

    It won't happen, didn't happen this season despite everybody saying it would, or in this case still insisting it has happened.  

    Using three #1 picks to take Seymour, Warren and Wilfork was necessary to create a nasty 3 man front, until we get another tackle that can compete like Wilfork and Gerrard Warren and stay healthy, you'll continue to see Belichick fill holes in his roster the only way he knows how, by playing people out of position.


     
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    Re: Front seven next year: 3-4 or 4-3?

    Not that it has'nt been amusing watching two belidgerant minds who are'nt compleatly right or wrong engage in a pi$$ing match of oneupsmanship but, the point being is that above all else BB has looked for personal and possition diversity. He has NT's play in the DE possition, DE's play DT, DE's in the LB possition, LB's move up into the DE possition, CB's play S, S"s play CB, S's play LB, WR's play DB, TE's play RB. And the list go's on, yet you insist on trying to say you have got BB and his schemes figured out and to put lables on players who do any and all things BB will think up. The only obvious point is BB's version of a hybrid defence will constantly morph to what is percieved to be the most profitable shape for the imediate situation, which will demand possition flexibility. This will have the drawback of the situational specialist with their individual specified skillsets not being involved in the defence, excep in the situations where there presence which will give away our defensive intentions does not matter. This obviousely is still an experiment in action and only a couple years into its instalation. I do not see this team overhall over the last 2-3 years as simply being a shift on the fly operation. I see a definite shift with the type of players leading away from the few playmakers that make or break a team to a more diversified overlapping skillset on the defensive which is more of a blended team orented product. This allowes for little drop of in the loss of one player to the next. One players mistake becomes covered by the next. This also will lead to less turnover in personal because of the lack of obvious high profile playmakers hitting FA looking to get the big payday. That has always put stumbling blocks in any teams plans. Personaly I believe there is a greater plan in place than the adjust on the fly clusterfaulk many here seem to percieve. And I also believe that if any of us were more adept at gameplaning a season in the NFL we would be doing so.
    So 3-4,4-3,3-3-5, 2-3-6, whatever, the closer you can get the personal on the field to have the possibility of shifting to the greatest possibility of formations the more deceptive your defence will be, and greater fits you will give to opposeing QB's.
     
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