gasoline to the "best GM" debate

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: gasoline to the

    The problem with some of you in my opinion, is that while you try and sound objective, and while you are careful with your choice of words, the tone of your posts suggest otherwise.

    Questioning a draft pick is one thing, suggesting as one prominent poster on this board has, that draft picks like Tavon Wilson are the reason the Pats will not get to that elusive 4rth SB is just plain ignorant.

    Slamming BB for drafting a guy like Brace ^ or not signing Huff(whom the Ravens just cut) or taking a chance on a guy like Adrian Incredible Hulk Wilson just doesn't make sense. You are insinuating that BB should have known not to take these guys, which would imply that you knew he shouldn't have taken these guys. 

    The "FACTS" suggest that most draft picks do not work. BB has manipulated the draft so well that he has accumulated the most picks of any team over the last 12 years including the picks he traded away for a few scrubs like Corey Dillion, Randy Moss, and failure named Wes Welker that he gave way too much for(idiot GM).

    Sooo, if we know most draft picks fail, and the Patriots draft more players then anybody else, then what can we conclude from this? Anybody? Bueller? The answer is we will have more failures, but also more players that build something you just don't get...a "team".

    More importantly trying to knock the team building concept that BB has introduced in N.E is an attempt to tear down and belittle the absolute masterful job he has done building the most succesful team in NFL history over a 13 year period and currently the most succesful team in the league since Kraft pluckled him from a franchise that wishes they could have been a part of his brilliance.

    Wake up and take a dose of perspective people. BB has built a dynasty, we have come up short in the last 2 SB's but it is a dynasty no less. We are playoff contenders each and every year, no matter who we let walk in FA, how many coaches leave to other teams and who is playing on the football field. A popular saying is, "it doesn't get any better then this" and that is where we are.

    We all want another ring before BB and Brady retire, but the fact is, "There can only be one" and this league is specifically designed for parity. Enjoy the ride, complain about the defense, the QB, the injuries, the schedule, the refs, the rules, the weather, but not the man who will go down as one of the best ever. Whether it be assistant coach, scout, head coach or general manager, he is right there with the best of them.ENJOY IT.

    Oh, and yeah your damn right I threw out a Highlander reference.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: gasoline to the

    Spin it any way you like, but better GM work by BB would have resulted in more SB wins than zero in the last 8 years.

    Game, set, match.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from CablesWyndBairn. Show CablesWyndBairn's posts

    Re: gasoline to the

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    Spin it any way you like, but better GM work by BB would have resulted in more SB wins than zero in the last 8 years.

    Game, set, match.




    A better thow by Brady/catch by Welker, a drop by Tyree or an interception by Samuel and none of us have a thing to say about the draft.  Any of those things happen and the lot of us have little to debate.  It's not a black or white  argument - it's a game of inches where one play makes you the hero or the goat.   

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: gasoline to the

    In response to CablesWyndBairn's comment:

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    Spin it any way you like, but better GM work by BB would have resulted in more SB wins than zero in the last 8 years.

    Game, set, match.




    A better thow by Brady/catch by Welker, a drop by Tyree or an interception by Samuel and none of us have a thing to say about the draft.  



    Better picks or FA signings in the secondary or drafting a pass rusher (which I do think after the last SB is the reason why he went out and got Jones and Hightower) and we'd might be saying the same thing. When a game comes down to a couple of players a couple right or wrong choices in drafting and FA can make all the difference. Lets look at that D for a min. That starting D had Shaun Ellis, Mark Anderson, Tracy White, Arrington, Ihedigbo, Chung as starters. All those resources that year and the previous years spent trying to rebuild the secondary and watching the DL slowly disappear and those were the best starters they could find in both the draft and FA? Honestly the O carried them to the SB that year and it ended up being both the O and the D that failed but you change out a couple failed decisions and what could have happened. Don't forget they had Goldson in for a workout and nearly signed him as a SS but just under bid him. Replace Ihedigbo with Goldson would the D have looked better, if not for mearly a couple plays?

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from CablesWyndBairn. Show CablesWyndBairn's posts

    Re: gasoline to the

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

     

    In response to CablesWyndBairn's comment:

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    Spin it any way you like, but better GM work by BB would have resulted in more SB wins than zero in the last 8 years.

    Game, set, match.

     




    A better thow by Brady/catch by Welker, a drop by Tyree or an interception by Samuel and none of us have a thing to say about the draft.  

     



    Better picks or FA signings in the secondary or drafting a pass rusher (which I do think after the last SB is the reason why he went out and got Jones and Hightower) and we'd might be saying the same thing. When a game comes down to a couple of players a couple right or wrong choices in drafting and FA can make all the difference. Lets look at that D for a min. That starting D had Shaun Ellis, Mark Anderson, Tracy White, Arrington, Ihedigbo, Chung as starters. All those resources that year and the previous years spent trying to rebuild the secondary and watching the DL slowly disappear and those were the best starters they could find in both the draft and FA? Honestly the O carried them to the SB that year and it ended up being both the O and the D that failed but you change out a couple failed decisions and what could have happened. Don't forget they had Goldson in for a workout and nearly signed him as a SS but just under bid him. Replace Ihedigbo with Goldson would the D have looked better, if not for mearly a couple plays?




    PE, fine, I get your point.  A few more hits in the draft or FA would've been a help no doubt.  But it still doesn't change the fact that both SB losses came down to a play or two, personnel aside, and if the plays that were makeable were executed then all of BB's personnel misses are moot.  Saying that better drafts guarantees more SB wins cannot be proved.  What is fact is that the Pats got to 5 superbowls and won 3 with the flawed players that people love to hate.  At what point do we accept that BB and crew are pretty good at their jobs?  It seems we want the ice cream sundae not only with the whipcream and cherry but DAMN it throw some jimmies on it as well. 

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: gasoline to the

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

    The problem with some of you in my opinion, is that while you try and sound objective, and while you are careful with your choice of words, the tone of your posts suggest otherwise.

    Questioning a draft pick is one thing, suggesting as one prominent poster on this board has, that draft picks like Tavon Wilson are the reason the Pats will not get to that elusive 4rth SB is just plain ignorant.

    Slamming BB for drafting a guy like Brace ^ or not signing Huff(whom the Ravens just cut) or taking a chance on a guy like Adrian Incredible Hulk Wilson just doesn't make sense. You are insinuating that BB should have known not to take these guys, which would imply that you knew he shouldn't have taken these guys. 

    The "FACTS" suggest that most draft picks do not work. BB has manipulated the draft so well that he has accumulated the most picks of any team over the last 12 years including the picks he traded away for a few scrubs like Corey Dillion, Randy Moss, and failure named Wes Welker that he gave way too much for(idiot GM).

    Sooo, if we know most draft picks fail, and the Patriots draft more players then anybody else, then what can we conclude from this? Anybody? Bueller? The answer is we will have more failures, but also more players that build something you just don't get...a "team".

    More importantly trying to knock the team building concept that BB has introduced in N.E is an attempt to tear down and belittle the absolute masterful job he has done building the most succesful team in NFL history over a 13 year period and currently the most succesful team in the league since Kraft pluckled him from a franchise that wishes they could have been a part of his brilliance.

    Wake up and take a dose of perspective people. BB has built a dynasty, we have come up short in the last 2 SB's but it is a dynasty no less. We are playoff contenders each and every year, no matter who we let walk in FA, how many coaches leave to other teams and who is playing on the football field. A popular saying is, "it doesn't get any better then this" and that is where we are.

    We all want another ring before BB and Brady retire, but the fact is, "There can only be one" and this league is specifically designed for parity. Enjoy the ride, complain about the defense, the QB, the injuries, the schedule, the refs, the rules, the weather, but not the man who will go down as one of the best ever. Whether it be assistant coach, scout, head coach or general manager, he is right there with the best of them.ENJOY IT.

    Oh, and yeah your damn right I threw out a Highlander reference.



    Good post

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: gasoline to the

    In response to CablesWyndBairn's comment:

    A few more hits in the draft or FA would've been a help no doubt.  But it still doesn't change the fact that both SB losses came down to a play or two, personnel aside, and if the plays that were makeable were executed then all of BB's personnel misses are moot.  Saying that better drafts guarantees more SB wins cannot be proved.  What is fact is that the Pats got to 5 superbowls and won 3 with the flawed players that people love to hate.  At what point do we accept that BB and crew are pretty good at their jobs?  It seems we want the ice cream sundae not only with the whipcream and cherry but DAMN it throw some jimmies on it as well. 



    This^

    The people moaning are more concerned about who we should have had on our team than who we did have.  There is no team in the NFL with top to bottom All Pro's on their roster, acquiring talent isn't as simple as waiving your magic wand or spending more, if it were Daniel Snyder's Redskins would win every year.  You could easily look back at our two Super Bowl losses and say that if not for some key injuries we would have blown those teams out.  

    From top to bottom, even in our down years which amount to early playoff exits, the Patriots still have more talent on their roster than 90% of the NFL.  It's not always a "talent" issue, sometimes it's been chemistry (play calling), sometimes it has been luck (health) and more often than not it has been the team on the other side of the ball and our ability to execute.  

    It's not easy to win a Super Bowl, Belichick may have made it look easy in his first four years here but it wasn't, we snuck up on people, had the benefit of high first round as well as multiple picks and stayed healthy.  

    We can't sneak up on anyone anymore and yet we remain competitive every year, you may think you DESERVE more but that's just entitlement talking.  You've won more rings in the past decade than 90% of the NFL, don't overlook that.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: gasoline to the

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    Spin it any way you like, but better GM work by BB would have resulted in more SB wins than zero in the last 8 years.

    Game, set, match.



    And I love how you went from talking about the last decade to now talking about the last eight years because the last time you made this statement I reminded you that we've gone to four Super Bowls in the last decade and won two of them, more than any other team.  Now your only concerned about the last eight and the two Super Bowls we've lost... lol

    Game, set, match?

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: gasoline to the

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    In response to CablesWyndBairn's comment:

     

    A few more hits in the draft or FA would've been a help no doubt.  But it still doesn't change the fact that both SB losses came down to a play or two, personnel aside, and if the plays that were makeable were executed then all of BB's personnel misses are moot.  Saying that better drafts guarantees more SB wins cannot be proved.  What is fact is that the Pats got to 5 superbowls and won 3 with the flawed players that people love to hate.  At what point do we accept that BB and crew are pretty good at their jobs?  It seems we want the ice cream sundae not only with the whipcream and cherry but DAMN it throw some jimmies on it as well. 

     



    This^

     

    The people moaning are more concerned about who we should have had on our team than who we did have.  There is no team in the NFL with top to bottom All Pro's on their roster, acquiring talent isn't as simple as waiving your magic wand or spending more, if it were Daniel Snyder's Redskins would win every year.  You could easily look back at our two Super Bowl losses and say that if not for some key injuries we would have blown those teams out.  

    From top to bottom, even in our down years which amount to early playoff exits, the Patriots still have more talent on their roster than 90% of the NFL.  It's not always a "talent" issue, sometimes it's been chemistry (play calling), sometimes it has been luck (health) and more often than not it has been the team on the other side of the ball and our ability to execute.  

    It's not easy to win a Super Bowl, Belichick may have made it look easy in his first four years here but it wasn't, we snuck up on people, had the benefit of high first round as well as multiple picks and stayed healthy.  

    We can't sneak up on anyone anymore and yet we remain competitive every year, you may think you DESERVE more but that's just entitlement talking.  You've won more rings in the past decade than 90% of the NFL, don't overlook that.




    No, 100% false. 3 rings or 5 rings or 10 rings...regardless, "in BB we trust"...

    this is a board to sound off on, have some fun, 2nd guess and discuss "this is what I would have done". some people here take "this is what I would have done" as a personal attack...not the case.

    the crux of the discussion imo is that this years team, injuries aside, has more youth, inexperience and players simply not ready for the NFL than in past years. that is a GM decision. Hence the positive and negative reviews of the GM...the fact that this team has umpteen straight division titles/playoff appearances seems to be credited to the coach rather than the GM...the most fun part of the discussion is he is the same person   

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: gasoline to the

    In response to CablesWyndBairn's comment:

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

    Spin it any way you like, but better GM work by BB would have resulted in more SB wins than zero in the last 8 years.

    Game, set, match.

     




    A better thow by Brady/catch by Welker, a drop by Tyree or an interception by Samuel and none of us have a thing to say about the draft.  Any of those things happen and the lot of us have little to debate.  It's not a black or white  argument - it's a game of inches where one play makes you the hero or the goat.   

     



    I don't buy the "one play" argument.  If you play so close to the edge that one play makes a difference (or one call by the refs makes a difference), you haven't played well enough.  In the 2007 Super Bowl, the Tyree catch wasn't the major factor in determining the game.  The major factor was the inability to block the Giants' pass rush.  If the Pats had been able to do that, the Tyree catch wouldn't have been a factor.  Similarly, the missed connection between Brady and Welker wouldn't have been a big play if the offense had been more effective scoring points earlier in the game and/or the defense had been able to stop the Giants from scoring on half their drives. 

    Then you have to consider the seasons between the Super Bowl appearances.  We had some poor playoff games in 2009, 2010, and 2012. Even in the 2011 Super Bowl season, the AFC Championship was not a great game for the Pats and really could have gone either way. 

    I'm not saying the above to criticize BB as a GM.  I think he's done a great job building highly competitive teams for over a decade.  That's an amazing accomplishment that few have even come close to matching.  At the same time, I think fans sometimes exaggerate the talent level of the Patriots' recent teams.  These teams have mostly been good teams, but with a few significant flaws, and those flaws have sometimes been hard to overcome in the playoffs.  This isn't a knock on Belichick--it's impossible to build a team with top talent at every position and extremely difficult to build even a good team when you consistently pick low in the draft--but it also suggests that Belichick isn't perfect.  He has, at times, made mistakes in player evaluation, and his value approach, while generally highly effective, does have its downsides when it comes to accumulating enough high end talent.  What bothers me about the tenor of the debate on this board lately is that there's a tendency to divide into two camps: the Belichick is infallible camp and the Belichick is terrible camp.  The reality, to me, is that Belichick is extremely good as a GM and deserves both praise and appreciation, but that doesn't mean that he can never be criticized for some of his poorer moves or that the effectiveness of his value approach in creating a championship calibre team can never be questioned.  You can love Belichick without thinking everything he does is the epitome of perfection.  

     

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: gasoline to the

    In response to rkarp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    So who has a better record?

    Who has been to four Super Bowls and won two of them in the last decade?

    Nobody.

    That's why I made the Ted Williams comparison yesterday, when 30% success rate is Hall Of Fame quality, than complaining that your GM sux and needs to be fired is nitpicking and comes off like whining.  

    If you want to talk draft, talk draft, pull up those old draft threads where you said they should have taken player X, nobody does that of course because these same moaners only want player X three years in hindsight and begrudge Belichick because he didn't take player X or because he didn't have twenty draft picks available to take everyone.  

    Most of the draftees they want were top 20 picks in the first round, how many first round picks did we have three years ago, I can't remember?  Also would you sacrifice Chandler Jones right now so you could have Janorius Jenkins, because that's what you're saying?  We have Talib, isn't that good enough?  At 7-2 heading into the bye, I think so...

    Cool headed rationalization, football talk I can handle, I love talking draft, but outright statements that our GM needs to be fired or is no good is utter horsesht.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: gasoline to the

    In response to CablesWyndBairn's comment:

     

    PE, fine, I get your point.  A few more hits in the draft or FA would've been a help no doubt.  But it still doesn't change the fact that both SB losses came down to a play or two, personnel aside, and if the plays that were makeable were executed then all of BB's personnel misses are moot.  Saying that better drafts guarantees more SB wins cannot be proved.  What is fact is that the Pats got to 5 superbowls and won 3 with the flawed players that people love to hate.  At what point do we accept that BB and crew are pretty good at their jobs?  It seems we want the ice cream sundae not only with the whipcream and cherry but DAMN it throw some jimmies on it as well. 



    The question I have is, is the success a product of BB the coach and Brady or the player personal decisions? If you remove BB the coach and Brady is this team still winning, would those SB teams still have won? Point being, everyone points to the winning record which is amazing to have but the question still becomes could have it been better if a couple different decisions were made. Take the 06' season. If they didn't go bottom barrel WRs would you be using 4 SB wins and 6 appearences in your argument. If they didn't spend 2 1sts, 4 2nds, a 4th, and a 7th (not counting last years picks yet as we don't know what they will become) not to mention millions in cap space and trades to end up with 2 viable CBs (Talib and Dennard currently) and 1 FS (McCourty) could some of those resources been used to sure up other areas? The worst part is of those 4 2nd rounders only 1 is currently on the team and the way he's playing do you think he'll be around next year? Yes GMs make mistakes, it will happen but when you spend that many resources on a single area as fans we should expect different results.

    Brady and BB want championships. They don't end a season celebrating and throwing parties for having a winning season. It's great as fans to see but a championship caliber team with all time greats at coach and QB shouldn't we have higher expectations than say then Bengals who are just happy making the playoffs?

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from CablesWyndBairn. Show CablesWyndBairn's posts

    Re: gasoline to the

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to CablesWyndBairn's comment:

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

    Spin it any way you like, but better GM work by BB would have resulted in more SB wins than zero in the last 8 years.

    Game, set, match.

     




    A better thow by Brady/catch by Welker, a drop by Tyree or an interception by Samuel and none of us have a thing to say about the draft.  Any of those things happen and the lot of us have little to debate.  It's not a black or white  argument - it's a game of inches where one play makes you the hero or the goat.   

     



    I don't buy the "one play" argument.  If you play so close to the edge that one play makes a difference (or one call by the refs makes a difference), you haven't played well enough.  In the 2007 Super Bowl, the Tyree catch wasn't the major factor in determining the game.  The major factor was the inability to block the Giants' pass rush.  If the Pats had been able to do that, the Tyree catch wouldn't have been a factor.  Similarly, the missed connection between Brady and Welker wouldn't have been a big play if the offense had been more effective scoring points earlier in the game and/or the defense had been able to stop the Giants from scoring on half their drives. 

    Then you have to consider the seasons between the Super Bowl appearances.  We had some poor playoff games in 2009, 2010, and 2012. Even in the 2011 Super Bowl season, the AFC Championship was not a great game for the Pats and really could have gone either way. 

    I'm not saying the above to criticize BB as a GM.  I think he's done a great job building highly competitive teams for over a decade.  That's an amazing accomplishment that few have even come close to matching.  At the same time, I think fans sometimes exaggerate the talent level of the Patriots' recent teams.  These teams have mostly been good teams, but with a few significant flaws, and those flaws have sometimes been hard to overcome in the playoffs.  This isn't a knock on Belichick--it's impossible to build a team with top talent at every position and extremely difficult to build even a good team when you consistently pick low in the draft--but it also suggests that Belichick isn't perfect.  He has, at times, made mistakes in player evaluation, and his value approach, while generally highly effective, does have its downsides when it comes to accumulating enough high end talent.  What bothers me about the tenor of the debate on this board lately is that there's a tendency to divide into two camps: the Belichick is infallible camp and the Belichick is terrible camp.  The reality, to me, is that Belichick is extremely good as a GM and deserves both praise and appreciation, but that doesn't mean that he can never be criticized for some of his poorer moves or that the effectiveness of his value approach in creating a championship calibre team can never be questioned.  You can love Belichick without thinking everything he does is the epitome of perfection.  

     

     




    The point is, personnel gaffes and second guessing aside, this team has been to 5 superbowls. You can argue that every single SB team had its strengths and weaknesses and holes in its roster.  Even the SBs they won were close games, so if those teams were supposedly more talented they still managed to win by only a small margin because they made the plays when it counted.  The last two superbowl losses - overall game plan, execution and talent aside - came down to a few plays in the end.  Even if they were outplayed in the trenches twice by the Giants they could've have won both if they made a play here or there - I think that's indisputable. 

    We can argue this for hours.  You either believe BB as Coach and GM is a good combo or you think he's sandbagged his own success.  He is not above criticism, he's made his blunders for sure.  But I think it's damn near impossible to prove that "X" player drafted or "X" FA signed would've guaranteed more SB victories.  At best, it's speculation informed by the benefit of hindsight.  At worst, it's a fool's mission.   

    Believe me, I have no problem with people criticising BB.  But some of the blanket statments made here about some guy the Pats could or couldn't have had in the draft or FA being the difference in a SB win is pure speculation.  The proof is in 5 superbowl appearances and the fact that the outcomes of all hinged on a small number of plays.   

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from CablesWyndBairn. Show CablesWyndBairn's posts

    Re: gasoline to the

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

    In response to CablesWyndBairn's comment:

     

    PE, fine, I get your point.  A few more hits in the draft or FA would've been a help no doubt.  But it still doesn't change the fact that both SB losses came down to a play or two, personnel aside, and if the plays that were makeable were executed then all of BB's personnel misses are moot.  Saying that better drafts guarantees more SB wins cannot be proved.  What is fact is that the Pats got to 5 superbowls and won 3 with the flawed players that people love to hate.  At what point do we accept that BB and crew are pretty good at their jobs?  It seems we want the ice cream sundae not only with the whipcream and cherry but DAMN it throw some jimmies on it as well. 



    The question I have is, is the success a product of BB the coach and Brady or the player personal decisions? If you remove BB the coach and Brady is this team still winning, would those SB teams still have won? Point being, everyone points to the winning record which is amazing to have but the question still becomes could have it been better if a couple different decisions were made. Take the 06' season. If they didn't go bottom barrel WRs would you be using 4 SB wins and 6 appearences in your argument. If they didn't spend 2 1sts, 4 2nds, a 4th, and a 7th (not counting last years picks yet as we don't know what they will become) not to mention millions in cap space and trades to end up with 2 viable CBs (Talib and Dennard currently) and 1 FS (McCourty) could some of those resources been used to sure up other areas? The worst part is of those 4 2nd rounders only 1 is currently on the team and the way he's playing do you think he'll be around next year? Yes GMs make mistakes, it will happen but when you spend that many resources on a single area as fans we should expect different results.

    Brady and BB want championships. They don't end a season celebrating and throwing parties for having a winning season. It's great as fans to see but a championship caliber team with all time greats at coach and QB shouldn't we have higher expectations than say then Bengals who are just happy making the playoffs?



    Keep in mind, those expectations were set by the guy who drafted Brady and coached 5 superbowl teams.  BB and Brady set the bar to a point where only Superbowls matter, and that's just not realisitic. 

    I've never got the sense that even once it wasn't about winning Superbowls year in and year out in the Kraft/BB/Brady era, and I've no doubt that BB has done what he thought was in the best interests of the team, keeping in mind salary cap and other limiations to building a roster.  Again, to me, it would've been nice to see more hits in the early rounds of the draft and BB has certainly whiffed trying to find CBs and WRs. But ultimatley I ask myself is it ridiculous for me to expect a team full of superstars and a SB winner ever year?  Note to myself: yes, it is.   

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: gasoline to the

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

    The problem with some of you in my opinion, is that while you try and sound objective, and while you are careful with your choice of words, the tone of your posts suggest otherwise.

    Questioning a draft pick is one thing, suggesting as one prominent poster on this board has, that draft picks like Tavon Wilson are the reason the Pats will not get to that elusive 4rth SB is just plain ignorant.

    Slamming BB for drafting a guy like Brace ^ or not signing Huff(whom the Ravens just cut) or taking a chance on a guy like Adrian Incredible Hulk Wilson just doesn't make sense. You are insinuating that BB should have known not to take these guys, which would imply that you knew he shouldn't have taken these guys. 

    The "FACTS" suggest that most draft picks do not work. BB has manipulated the draft so well that he has accumulated the most picks of any team over the last 12 years including the picks he traded away for a few scrubs like Corey Dillion, Randy Moss, and failure named Wes Welker that he gave way too much for(idiot GM).

    Sooo, if we know most draft picks fail, and the Patriots draft more players then anybody else, then what can we conclude from this? Anybody? Bueller? The answer is we will have more failures, but also more players that build something you just don't get...a "team".

    More importantly trying to knock the team building concept that BB has introduced in N.E is an attempt to tear down and belittle the absolute masterful job he has done building the most succesful team in NFL history over a 13 year period and currently the most succesful team in the league since Kraft pluckled him from a franchise that wishes they could have been a part of his brilliance.

    Wake up and take a dose of perspective people. BB has built a dynasty, we have come up short in the last 2 SB's but it is a dynasty no less. We are playoff contenders each and every year, no matter who we let walk in FA, how many coaches leave to other teams and who is playing on the football field. A popular saying is, "it doesn't get any better then this" and that is where we are.

    We all want another ring before BB and Brady retire, but the fact is, "There can only be one" and this league is specifically designed for parity. Enjoy the ride, complain about the defense, the QB, the injuries, the schedule, the refs, the rules, the weather, but not the man who will go down as one of the best ever. Whether it be assistant coach, scout, head coach or general manager, he is right there with the best of them.ENJOY IT.

    Oh, and yeah your damn right I threw out a Highlander reference.



    Good post




    Of course you think it's a good post; you two were separated at birth.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: gasoline to the

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    Spin it any way you like, but better GM work by BB would have resulted in more SB wins than zero in the last 8 years.

    Game, set, match.



    And I love how you went from talking about the last decade to now talking about the last eight years because the last time you made this statement I reminded you that we've gone to four Super Bowls in the last decade and won two of them, more than any other team.  Now your only concerned about the last eight and the two Super Bowls we've lost... lol

    Game, set, match?




    I left out the part where BB inherited great players enabling him to win SBs.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: gasoline to the

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to CablesWyndBairn's comment:

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

    Spin it any way you like, but better GM work by BB would have resulted in more SB wins than zero in the last 8 years.

    Game, set, match.

     




    A better thow by Brady/catch by Welker, a drop by Tyree or an interception by Samuel and none of us have a thing to say about the draft.  Any of those things happen and the lot of us have little to debate.  It's not a black or white  argument - it's a game of inches where one play makes you the hero or the goat.   

     



    I don't buy the "one play" argument.  If you play so close to the edge that one play makes a difference (or one call by the refs makes a difference), you haven't played well enough.



    Good point.

    The homers like to lean on the close SB losses to support their flawed logic, but have selective amnesia when the close calls to even get to the SB went our way.

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: gasoline to the

    In response to CablesWyndBairn's comment:

     


    Keep in mind, those expectations were set by the guy who drafted Brady and coached 5 superbowl teams.  BB and Brady set the bar to a point where only Superbowls matter, and that's just not realisitic. 

    I've never got the sense that even once it wasn't about winning Superbowls year in and year out in the Kraft/BB/Brady era, and I've no doubt that BB has done what he thought was in the best interests of the team, keeping in mind salary cap and other limiations to building a roster.  Again, to me, it would've been nice to see more hits in the early rounds of the draft and BB has certainly whiffed trying to find CBs and WRs. But ultimatley I ask myself is it ridiculous for me to expect a team full of superstars and a SB winner ever year?  Note to myself: yes, it is.   



    I only ask what they ask of themselves so if they set the expectations that high while they are there that's the level we should hope for too. I have no doubt BB thinks he is doing what's best but thinking whats best and what actually is best is sometimes two different things. You can draft players with all the best intentions but if you aren't strong in certain aspects of the draft you or you over value one aspect over others than you could be hurting the team when your intention was to help it. That's what's being discussed from my perspective, whether his methodology needs to be adjusted because there are aspects which haven't worked. Yes we've won a lot but again pointing to the secondary, if he invested in a little more talent and less in certain intangibles earlier (lets face it Dennard and Talib were talent pick ups and didn't fit the typical BB DB prototype) would the secondary have suffered for as long? I have no doubt he feels he can get the same production from a late 1st pick as he can a top 10 pick (he said so when commenting about moving up for Julio Jones) but that doesn't mean it's always true. Sometimes a 2nd, 3rd, 4th doesn't add up to just getting a 1st to begin with. And signing 4 $2mil players doesn't always add up to getting that 1 higher priced $8mil player. I think it's perfectly fine to question his moves and taking an objective look at some of his moves he has quite a number of misses that are hidden by the likes of BB the coach, Brady, and the shear number of players taken.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: gasoline to the

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    And I love how you went from talking about the last decade to now talking about the last eight years because the last time you made this statement I reminded you that we've gone to four Super Bowls in the last decade and won two of them, more than any other team.  Now your only concerned about the last eight and the two Super Bowls we've lost... lol

    Game, set, match?



    When we win another SB the argument will change to "we haven't won one in X years" to "we would have won more if it weren't for BB's personnel moves".  It is what it is.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: gasoline to the

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

    I left out the part where BB inherited great players enabling him to win SBs.



    Garbage, we don't have to argue whether the Patriots win Super Bowls without Brady, Seymour, Light to name a few draft picks, along with free agents like Joe Andruzzi and Anthony Pleasant.  They don't... period.   It doesn't matter how many times you say it, it is complete horsesht.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: gasoline to the

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    I don't buy the "one play" argument.  If you play so close to the edge that one play makes a difference (or one call by the refs makes a difference), you haven't played well enough. 


    By this logic one could argue the Patriots didn't play well enough in 2001 and 2003.  The Tuck Rule and the Kasay out of bounds kickoff say hi.

     

    What bothers me about the tenor of the debate on this board lately is that there's a tendency to divide into two camps: the Belichick is infallible camp and the Belichick is terrible camp.



    This is a straw man.  There is exactly one poster who comes anywhere close to claiming BB is infallible.  There are numerous posters who routinely claim and start threads about how Belichick is terrible.  It is not even a comparison.

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: gasoline to the

    In response to Harvey-Wallbanger's comment:

    Why do you think he hits on so many late rd picks or UDFAs?



    Is it because his early round picks and previous free agent signings are such busts that spots are constantly open?

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Low-FB-IQ. Show Low-FB-IQ's posts

    Re: gasoline to the

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

     


    Couple things Low,

     

    Yes every GM has misfires but I do think when you are scratching your head over a pick for good reason and that player fails for that good reason then you are perfectly in the right to question why he drafted/signed him, examples: Brace - red flag was that he was a product of Raji and on an individual basis didn't show dominant tendecies when Raji wasn't getting the vast majority of the attention. Ras - multiple people on this board pointed out his nagging injury history before and after the draft and his injury red flag had pushed his stock into the late 2nd early 3rd yet BB took him where his value was without the injury history and don't compare it to Gronk because Gronk was a top 15 talent without the injury problem. Wilson - seriously where the heck did that come from? Or signing Amendola who carries his own medical history binder with him in his car. Now I can't blame BB for picks like Vereen because he wasn't an injury problem in college or Butler because he did look pretty good in college and those are just misfires that will happen.

    As for your comparison to players taken in the draft I don't think you can compare just the same position, because BB tends to like to draft positions of weakness in the draft not strength, but how about positions of need in general for the team? What about not getting a DT this year, passing over Matthews. When you go over drafts and you look at positions of need at the time compared to players they could have had there are actually quite a few players they could have had in positions of strength in the draft.

    Now I'm not saying BB is a bad GM but in all honesty he is an average to good GM at best. However, he is an exceptional coach with an all time great QB and that tends to hide a lot of the short comings of the GM as a whole. It's why I don't buy the whole check the record argument. Without Brady and BB the coach the last 6 years would have looked drastically different.

    The other thing I question is not collecting talent. True you don't want an all talent no team mentality team but on the other hand grinders and high motor guys will only get you so far. You have to have a balance between talent and team grinders to win. They had that in the past but I do think the value additions over talent in recent years has made it harder to get back over that hump. 



    Hey eng,

    I don't believe I said anything about people not being able to wonder or question "why" BB picked a certain guy in a draft.

    I do it a lot of times as well. I do find those that do not see the possible reasons why he may have picked a certain guy a bit fun though. It is a lot easier to simply throw stuff against the wall with no reason. Pick sucks period. Should have taken x player instead period. I simply can not take that serious.

    We both spend time in mbeaus draft thread. Me a lot closer to the draft and you all through the year and we both like a lot of similar players and have good discussions about guys and positions etc. Bottom line is we see a game, some games, highlight clips and maybe read a few news clippings, watch the combine. We don't do the background checks, talk to the coaches, see them up close and personal, work them out privately, interview them, etc etc. Nor do we see the current patriots very often. Some preseason games, maybe training camp if we go, , the regular season (and how often are you focusing in on one particular guy for every play), and possibly a post season game/s. The Pats organization see these guys every day practically in every aspect of what makes up their job. Personality, how they are as teammates, locker room presence, film room, weight-room, overall health and conditioning, medical history, every practice, breaking down game film on each guy, etc. They would seem to have a good handle on who is really an upgrade or potential upgrade at which position or not more than us. Just that alone leads to giving the Patriots organization the benefit of the doubt, in my opinion.

    Let's look at your examples for instance.

    You complain about Brace. Fair enough. He is gone. However, possible reasons : 1) Wilfork was a hold out and forced the Patriots hand. 2)Brace is local and easy access to scout and see and know a heck of a lot about. 3) Played very well for BC for a number of years. 4) I knew of no red flags on him. 5) Everyone knew Raji was the better but never heard anyone suggest Brace was nothing. 6) Pats only picked him maybe a 1/2 round to a round earlier than most pundits projected anyway. http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=9092&draftyear=2009&genpos=dt 7) If you are unsure what will transpire with Wilfork or simply want additional leverage and you don't want to risk potentially waiting and losing the guy you are targeting for that situation then a 1/2 round to round earlier is not egregious. 8) If you want to blame that situation on the Wilfork holdout you have to blame Kraft and the Patriots organization for running their organization with a strict set of financial structure they have chosen and not just the GM. 9) Brace had a good senior bowl week. 

    Alts. (Fili Moala, Sen'Derick Marks) Both still in the league but would they have lasted as a Patriot? Who knows?

    There are probably more but those just came off the top of my head. While it did not work, I can at least see the reasoning in it. I think people take exception when people just ignore the situation, circumstances and facts. I personally go looking for them out of curiosity when I am wondering about a pick.

    Ras-I. While he ultimately failed because his body would not let him play. I think it has taken on a life of its own. You carefully chose the word nagging and I would agree with that. However, typically people try to say Ras-I was "always" injured. People accept that as fact when it is not the case. If you look at his college career, with the exception of a serious injury his sr year, he missed only a couple games. As far as dropping, guys "always" drop when they miss the entirety or a large portion of their Sr seasons. Your Gronk example was a perfect choice. If you recall, when Ras-I was drafted, the talking heads on both networks basically said if it weren't for his injury his Sr year most had him as a 1st round talent. In fact if you recall when he got here, he started on the depth chart as a rookie as a starter.

    We will have to disagree on the looking at alternate players of the same position within the next 10-12 picks or so. That's what I believe if you really want to judge. I believe BB knows his systems and who has not graded out well after season ending self team evaluation. Who is not handling the role they are in well enough. Could be a backup OR starter. I think he tries to improve not only his starters but his backups as well during all the process. He probably thinks about who might be fa's this or next year, who might be available in draft this OR next year, financial implications etc. I think when he takes a position he thinks or at least hopes that person is an upgrade to someone on the team and will earn a roster spot. Specifically in a role that he feels needs it. I would suspect he knows what roles need help more than we do regardless of what we "think" we see. Especially since everyone seems to believe he is a great coach. That is the part that confuses me the most about peoples complaints. Do they honestly think or believe a different GM is going to take a OT when BB tells him my system really needs a SS (improved depth or starter)? I don't think the drafts would differ drastically if it was a different GM. Possibly some. It baffles my mind that people honestly believe you can be an amazing coach and have no clue who can perform the functions of a specific role well or not. That makes absolutely ZERO sense to me. You have to be able to talent evaluate. It is what you do every day among your own players.

    I've covered the Mathews thing seemingly ad nauseam. I think he is ok not as great as most think he is. I think he is a product of how he is utilized which is not how he would most likely be utilized in the Pats system. The most important question to ask is why would you jump all over Mathews in the 1st rnd of the draft. Other than being a workout warrior with an exceptional 10 yard split what game film would you go by? He was a walk on and then played special teams until his Sr year. He played 1 season. One. Then he played with 3 other highly touted and drafted LB's and an overall great defense. How can you sit there and rip or question Ron Brace because he played next to Raji and NOT at least question or wonder the same exact thing about Clay Mathews? Mathews played with Brian Cushing, Rey Maualuga, Fili Moala, Kaluka Maiva, etc. You had 4 years of film to watch on Brace and only 1 with Clay(other than special teams or backup duty). On top of that the year he was drafted the Pats got almost the same exact sack production out of a guy they resigned in FA that cost not much if I recall correctly. You seem to be playing both sides on the Brace/Mathews thing.

    As far as DT this year, no idea. Have to assume they felt they had Wilfork, Kelly, Armstead(at the time), don't remember the timelines for the releases of Love, Deaderick, etc, Forston, and whatever UDFA types they picked up. And for those that might wish to say well then you have to know Wilfork and Kelly are old and will eventually get hurt so they should have drafted one in the first round. I would simply say, then you should be saying that about drafting a QB in the first round as well.

    That leads to addressing your final point. I think you misunderstand my comment about collecting talent. I was not suggesting accumulating scrubs. I was simply saying you don't go drafting the best player if it's a position who you already have filled solidly and the guy you pick is equally as good. He might be the best available but what good is it to have him sit behind the other two when you have a need to fill that can be improved even though the player is of a little bit less "overall" talent than the guy you don't need. You see it all the time around the league. This or that team has the best Oline or Dline or d-backfield. Yeah great too bad the rest of the team stinks or has "glaring" holes in certain roles. The fact that the NFL tries its best to make the league as much a parity league as possible further emphasizes the importance of finding those gritty grinders with mental toughness  to fill your roles and not simply collect talent where you don't need it most. If parity is achieved, or close to it, then overall roster talent level should at least be close and the gritty grinding mentally tough and deep roster will make the potential difference.

    These are only my own opinions. 

     

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: gasoline to the

    Not the mark of a great GM, beginning in 2006.... forward

    2006_nfl_draft_rois__rds_1-2__medium

    As - JAX, CHI, SD, IND, PIT, GB

    Bs - BAL, DEN, CAR, WAS, KC, CIN

    Cs - TB, CLE, SEA, NYJ, NO, MIN, HOU, OAK

    Ds - SF, PHI, TEN, ARI, DET, DAL

    Fs - NYG, NE, ATL, BUF, STL, MIA

    Do you really want to argue that anything better than a "F" grade, in the first 2 rounds, in 2006 would have helped in 2006 and beyond?

     

    WR Chad Jackson, rated as the worst pick in the draft, and along comes bug eyes.

    DOUBLE WHAMMY!

     

    36

    NE

    Chad Jackson

    WR

    0.67

    3.20

    -2.53

    -79.15%

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: gasoline to the

    This is rich.  Jacksonville has drafted the best in the 1st two rounds since 2006?  LMFAO.

     
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