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Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

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  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from neinmd. Show neinmd's posts

    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    In response to zbellino's comment:

    http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/03/14/for-patriots-losing-wes-welker-isn-important-gaining-something-defense/MypxYv4hWbj0xIPFT6XDMN/story.html

    A lot of this pre-draft piece rings true. I'm not sure that WR is as hunky dory (or irrelevant) as Gasper paints it to be here, but regardless, his major point is about addressing a pass defense that has faltered at some key points, is in an offseason on the heels of allowing 56 points in two playoff games, and has held a bottom 4 ranking for three seasons running. 

    They have re-locked Talib and Arrington to bring continuity. They added Tommy Kelley. They added the extremely athletic Jaime Collins via the draft. And veteran near-HOFer Adrian Wilson -- who is a question mark in some ways given his reduced role last season and age. 

    The question I have, now that the draft is over, and the major FA signing period is done, is has NE done enough to improve on defense this off-season?

    Would adding Abraham change your answer?




    I think we are still a year of experience and a couple of players away from being a stout top10 defense. There has been a steady improvement over the last 3-4 years in raw talent, and over the last year it is apparent that they have played more as a team. I would like to see a couple of smart veterans added to the team, and Abraham fits that bill. In both tackles and sacks, he has been very consistent over the last 12 years. The only issue is whether the 2-3 years he would give the Patriots in leadership, mentoring and a diminishing personal role is worth the bucks he would command. My guess is that his return on invested cap does not meet the Patriots' hurdle rate.

     
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    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    There is no question Kelly can play and play well. He's basically Gerard Warren in 2010 but with a pass rush down the middle.  That's the difference in those two and their skill sets. So, we need pash rush upgrade from Love or Deaderick in the 4-3 DT spot, so you get it right there.

    He also has multiple years in the 3-4 at DE. So did Warren. Bonus. 

    I don't know why people keep saying the Wilson and Kelly adds are unknown adds.  Seymour got hurt last year, only playing 6 games. This meant Kelly would be the slam dunk choice to be doubled all the time, which he pretty much had been for most of 2011 when he had 7.5 sacks on a bad D from a 4-3 DT spot. That's impressive production for a guy playing on a crappy team with nary a chance at a sniff at a SB ring.  Go look at how many DTs in the 4-3 get almost 8 sacks in a season. You won't find many.

    Wilfork>Seymour.  Do the math, please.

    Plop him down here next to Vince and are you kidding me? 

    Go ask a knowledgeable Raiders fan. Seriously.  Tommy Kelly was better than Seymour on that team since 2011.

    Seymour played for his last deal at 14 mil, raped the Raiders and then got lazy again.

    As for Armstead, word around the building per Zolak is the guy looks like a beast. I am not sure if this in the weight room or sort mini drills or what the scoop is, but they like the upside there.

    Would not be shocked if he and Kelly are the 4-3 DT guys as a duo similar to how BB used Wilfork in 2003 with Ted Washington and then later Keith Traylor.

    When using the 4-3, whoever is the better fit, with possibly the older Kelly as the subrusher on 3rds/passing downs, with Armstead being that 3-4 DE and 4-3 DT "project", if you will.

    It's fair to say we don't know on a guy who played in the CFL, but Kelly has to be hungry at this point after 10 years in the crap hole in Oakland.  Why do you think Wilson and Kelly didn't even talk to any other team?  They may have had suitors, in fact I know they did, but why do you think they didn't shop themselves? They WANT to be here.

    Keep in mind, Kelly was UNDRAFTED, which means he busted his tail and earned every penny to get what he had.  He'll fit in very well here with Adrian Wilson, two guys who would love a sniff at another ring.

    I can always tells who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't. I get Oakland and Arizona were bad teams and it's unlikely to watch, but it's somewhat annoying for people to look at the age of a player and just assume that means they have little in the tank.

    Houston just paid Ed Reed 6 mil and he just had hip surgery. Good luck!

     




    After I read your comment saying Kelly was essentially Gerrad Warren but with a pass rush down the middle I knew enough not to read another line.

    THose two players are about as FAR apart as you can get and still be DTs. Your comment was just plain ignorant. You can twist your own words in the wind to justify but please, what a LAME thing to say. It would be like saying Vereen is essentially Jerome Bettis but with speed to the outside.

    If you cannot even stay within the realm of ... of.... of sanity then why post?

     

     
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    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    In response to zbellino's comment:

     

    In response to anonymis' comment:

     

    just need depth at the DE/OLB position. Abraham is an option. Need more competition...

     



    So, you think the pass rush was fine coming in (15th ranked)? Or you think Kelley, Collins, et al, answers any deficiencies?

     

     




    Any particular reason why you are ignoring my first post? lmao

     

    You seem to do this when it appears you don't think things through and I sort of challenge your premise.

    Here's a question for you with reagrds to Abraham coming in here or not:

    Do you think with BB not drafting a DT in a deep DT draft, and drafting two rangy looking 4-3 DEs, but one guy who actually started asa a Safety and has college 3-4 OLB experience with high character (both parents died when he was 6), that BB is staying primarily with a 4-3 where Abraham plays?

     



    I just cant read some of your posts when you make some .. well, stupid remarks. And you are asking someone here why they have not responded to you? Maybe it would take a lifetime considering comments like KELLY IS ESSENTIALLY GERRARD WARREN. P -u -l ease...

     
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  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    In response to zbellino's comment:

     

     

     



    Solid post man.

    Thanks Z. 

     

    I also think Ne will keep using a base 4 man front, though I think we will see some more three man fronts mixed in. 

    And yeah, I'm axcited about Jones. He is a real talent. Hightower. I loved him coming out. He got caught dogging it on a few plays last season, and was called out on the globe. But he is a great athlete, I would love him to be for this defense what he was for Saban's Crimson Tide. 

    Improvement. Care to quantify it? 30th, to 31st, to 29th? You obviously aren't calling for a sea-change, so is this the season NE can crack the top 15 pass defense? Or do you mean even more incremental ... something closer to getting out of the bottom 10 or 5?

    So hard to tell without seeing the guys play.  I guess the secondary--barring injury or a sophmore slump from Dennard--is now good enough to be a mid pack group.  But overall improvement in pass D will really depend on pass rush and LB coverage too (which I thought was weak last year).  Let's say Collins is a real surprise who can start right away and is excellent in the passing game, Hightower improves a lot too, and Jones, Kelly, Armstead, and Francis all boost the pass rush from the line.  Then I could definitely see us going up to 12 or 15.  More tempered expectations, though, would be somewhere between 15 and 20.  Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but I do see this defense as now much better than last in the league.  I see it as at least 20th and maybe well above that if everything goes well.

    The big questions to me remaining are:

    1.) The depth at CB. Banking on improvement from Dennard, and maintanance by Talib, if one of them goes down Ne really has trash backing them up. Arrington is decent in the slot, but it's been demonstrated before, he is a bad LCB/RCB. 

    Totally agree here. An injury or a sophmore slump from Dennard creates real risk.  I'm hoping Ryan or Dowling give us a third corner who can play outside.  Cole and Arrington aren't good there. 

    2.) Finally finding a functional Safety to play beside DMC (it's been an unmitigated nightmare outside of some solid box play by the oft injured Chung). I'm not talking about someone who can play the big nickel, though that is always something NE needs. But another guy who isn't a nightmare in the deeper quadrants. It's frustrating that NE spends so much time in soft-zone and off-man, two deep ... but still were dead last in 20+ yard passes allowed last season, and 19th in 40+ yard passes.  

    Agree here too.  We've got a bunch of in-the-box type safeties, but nobody whose a clear deep guy besides McCourty.  This will be interesting to watch in camp.  Maybe someone will develop or we may see another veteran brought in. If not,  we may need to use more five and six DB formations to get enough cover guys on the field. At least we've got a lot of good run defenders up front so switching out one LB or DL for a DB shouldn't hurt our run D too much, but does it hurt the pass rush by removing a guy who might otherwise be focused upfield?

    3.) Augmenting the pass rush come he-11 or high water (something that has really lingered as a sore spot for what is almost the better part of a decade at this point) wether through development [Jones taking another step, Collins coming on quick] or FA [TK, AA, or even Abraham]. Whether you think like Wozzy (I tend to do so) that the interior is what's has been missing (Gerard Warren, really?) or you think simply adding a dash of Abraham works it all out, it's something they need to improve on, especially in how it can help the back end of the defense ... the linebackers in particular, who are often basically twisting in the wind, sorting through trash, or being forced to cover underneath routes longer than LBers should.

    I think interior rush (from the tackles) is most critical, though I'd like to see more from their ends and LBs too.  It's just not very dynamic now.  I'd love to see a LB blast through now and then.  Or a DB--but I guess we can't risk taking any of those guys out of coverage!

    I'm tired of hearing people trash Mayo, Spikes, etc, because they don't compare to Bruschi/Johnson when that latter two basically ran around unimpeded behind a terrific front-five of Seymour Washington/Wilfork, Warren, Vrabel, and McGinest. The best (really the best) NE has offered recently to compete with that is Wilfork, Jones, Ninkovich, Love/Deaderick. It's not even a comparison.    

    Yep.  The LBs honestly are probably the least to blame, particularly last year.

     




     
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    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    In response to zbellino's comment:

    Also, going to add this.

    People really overlook Armstead as a 4-3 END. I think he has utility there. A lot of teams have used larger players on the edge in 43 lineups. I could see them coming out with something like Jones, VW, TK, AA. It certainly would give you solid edges.



    Yeah, great point.  That's actually what I think BB might do. Also, watch Armstead in pursuit in the open field. Sometimes he looks like a big LB. 

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    There is no question Kelly can play and play well. He's basically Gerard Warren in 2010 but with a pass rush down the middle.  That's the difference in those two and their skill sets. So, we need pash rush upgrade from Love or Deaderick in the 4-3 DT spot, so you get it right there.

    He also has multiple years in the 3-4 at DE. So did Warren. Bonus. 

    I don't know why people keep saying the Wilson and Kelly adds are unknown adds.  Seymour got hurt last year, only playing 6 games. This meant Kelly would be the slam dunk choice to be doubled all the time, which he pretty much had been for most of 2011 when he had 7.5 sacks on a bad D from a 4-3 DT spot. That's impressive production for a guy playing on a crappy team with nary a chance at a sniff at a SB ring.  Go look at how many DTs in the 4-3 get almost 8 sacks in a season. You won't find many.

    Wilfork>Seymour.  Do the math, please.

    Plop him down here next to Vince and are you kidding me? 

    Go ask a knowledgeable Raiders fan. Seriously.  Tommy Kelly was better than Seymour on that team since 2011.

    Seymour played for his last deal at 14 mil, raped the Raiders and then got lazy again.

    As for Armstead, word around the building per Zolak is the guy looks like a beast. I am not sure if this in the weight room or sort mini drills or what the scoop is, but they like the upside there.

    Would not be shocked if he and Kelly are the 4-3 DT guys as a duo similar to how BB used Wilfork in 2003 with Ted Washington and then later Keith Traylor.

    When using the 4-3, whoever is the better fit, with possibly the older Kelly as the subrusher on 3rds/passing downs, with Armstead being that 3-4 DE and 4-3 DT "project", if you will.

    It's fair to say we don't know on a guy who played in the CFL, but Kelly has to be hungry at this point after 10 years in the crap hole in Oakland.  Why do you think Wilson and Kelly didn't even talk to any other team?  They may have had suitors, in fact I know they did, but why do you think they didn't shop themselves? They WANT to be here.

    Keep in mind, Kelly was UNDRAFTED, which means he busted his tail and earned every penny to get what he had.  He'll fit in very well here with Adrian Wilson, two guys who would love a sniff at another ring.

    I can always tells who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't. I get Oakland and Arizona were bad teams and it's unlikely to watch, but it's somewhat annoying for people to look at the age of a player and just assume that means they have little in the tank.

    Houston just paid Ed Reed 6 mil and he just had hip surgery. Good luck!

     



    I think you underestimate what age can do to older players in the NFL...it's a gamble - so two of the biggest free agent signings we had were gambles. Now every player every year is a gamble, but when you are going to be counting on these guys I would of liked them to be younger. Age does matter. 

     
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    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    In response to zbellino's comment:

    Also, going to add this.

    People really overlook Armstead as a 4-3 END. I think he has utility there. A lot of teams have used larger players on the edge in 43 lineups. I could see them coming out with something like Jones, VW, TK, AA. It certainly would give you solid edges.



    That combo would seem to be a really good front 4, I hope AA can be a good DE. 

    Stout against the run and they all should really be able to get after QBs

     
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    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    In response to mthurl's comment:



    I think you underestimate what age can do to older players in the NFL...it's a gamble - so two of the biggest free agent signings we had were gambles. Now every player every year is a gamble, but when you are going to be counting on these guys I would of liked them to be younger. Age does matter. 

     



    This is what BB has been doing for a while now. Sign a few over the hill vets for cheap and draft some warm bodies toward the same need. Why?

    Because the resources spread out like that aren't apt to garner much criticism if they fail while focusing the same resources into a single draft pick or FA will be a major crapstorm if they fail.

    Trade down, sign a bunch of cheap old vets = safer from negative scrutiny. It probably won't put an outstanding team around your GOAT QB, but it will keep your legacy intact.

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    In response to zbellino's comment:

    In response to anonymis' comment:

     

    just need depth at the DE/OLB position. Abraham is an option. Need more competition...

     



    So, you think the pass rush was fine coming in (15th ranked)? Or you think Kelley, Collins, et al, answers any deficiencies?

     




    I dunno.  I think the defense needs to get back into top 5 in pts. against, between 10-15 in passing yards against, top 5 in red zone defense.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    In response to zbellino's comment:

     

    I already noted that the aged vet FA addition worked better when your defensive *core* was Seymour, Wash/Wilfork, Warren, Law, Bruschi, etc. 

     



    Well, yeah. When these signings are only needed as filler around a solid core they can be a nice surprise addition. But when you're hoping they will fix the core, you've got severe problems.

     

     
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    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    In response to zbellino's comment:


    Yeah, I just posted the same thing about. They don't need to be the best in the league, but they need to be able to bring one home more often than they have in the past. 

     



    Yep.  Add top 7 or so for rush D - and you have on bad-ass team going forward....lol

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    In response to zbellino's comment:

    Also, going to add this.

    People really overlook Armstead as a 4-3 END. I think he has utility there. A lot of teams have used larger players on the edge in 43 lineups. I could see them coming out with something like Jones, VW, TK, AA. It certainly would give you solid edges.



    Hey this is a good point, they could always go the other direction with this defense.  Put Wilfork and Kelly inside with Jones and Armstead on the ends, all the posters agonizing over my insistence the Pats still run a 3/4 with a 2/4/5 nickel as their base could relax because we'd be running a true 4/3.  In that case I might rotate Hightower and Spikes in the middle, Mayo and  Collins on the outside.  This might be a big picture move, maybe they can't come to an agreement with Spike's agent for an extension?  

    But I still think BB has always been working his way back to having enough personnel to run either a 3/4 or 4/3, in a perfect world you have enough depth of talent along the front to run either or both, depending on injury.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Macrawn. Show Macrawn's posts

    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    I think they have done enough but barely enough. Dennard and Talib are a good Duo with Arrington in there for the slot. They have enough safeties that if there is an injury McCourty could go to corner. They need one of these picks at corner to be able to learn fast because they are just not deep enough to sustain more than 1 injury at corner. 

    I think the Pats starting D can get the job done. The problem is the depth and I think they did okay in bolstering it but we will see. 

    WR is the biggest issue. If neither of the WR picks pan out and Amendola gets hurt the Pats are going to be searching the reject basket for a guy to come in and play. That's not going to cut it. Given the way the Pats offense is, probably neither of the WR rooks will start the first few games and it's going to look ugly. 

     
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    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     



    Obviously if they were not dismal the entire season one could not label them as dismal for the entire season nutcake. Learn to comprehend the language.

     

     




    They weren't dismal in 2011 either.  They were thinned out and flawed, but far from "dismal".

     

    You used the word "dismal" where you should have used a different word. Don't try to backpedal now, Mr. Troll Sneak.

     

     


    I'll stick with my choice of words crackpot.

     



    Back your premise. Break down how and why they were "dismal".

     

     




    I and numerous others have done this over and over for you meathead. Not wasting my time explaining the obvious to a wack job anymore. I've wasted 2 years doing that.

     

     

     

     

     



    No answer means backpedal.


    You lose. Again. "Numerous others" means about 5-10 irrational fans who either just started watching football in 2007 or are also having virtual affairs with Tom Brady. lmao

    You can't be ranked top 10 in almost every category minus passing yards allowed, middle in points allowed out of the 32 teams and be a "dismal" D.

    You chose that word and you just got caught because you can't explain why you chose that word.

    The board knows why you chose that word.  Not fooling anyone, diapers.

    The only whackjob is you. You probably do a LOT of other kinds of whacking, too, as a 61 year old angry white male living alone with no friends or social outlets to speak of. lmao

    Category

    Statistic

    NFL Rank

    Total Defense YPG

    411.4 YPG

    31st

    Passing YPG

    293.9 YPG

    31st

    Rushing YPG

    117.1 YPG

    17th

    Fumble Recoveries

    11

    T-7th

    Interceptions

    23

    T-2nd

    Total Turnovers

    34

    T-3rd

    Sacks

    40.0

    14th

    3rd Down Conversions

    43.1%

    28th

    Opp. Completion %

    62.4%

    23rd

    Opp. YPA (passing)

    8.0

    29th

    Opp. QB Rating

    86.1

    20th

    Rushing YPC

    4.6

    24th

    Points Allowed

    21.4 PPG

    15th

     



    Here's your top 10 in virtually every catagory.  I would call that a BIG fat lie!

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     



    No answer means backpedal.

     


    No answer means I'm not going to waste my breath on a moron who has had this proven to him 1000 times.

     

     
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    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    In response to bredbruu's comment:

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

    I see no reason to believe the D will be significantly improved from these offseason moves. Talib was an excellent addition last year and retaining him if he stays healthy should keep the D respectable rather than dismal. He was a key acquisition. I hope BB has added great contributors. I just don't see any reason to think he has at this point.

     



    unless collins is givne reign to rush the qb and is the next von miller. or buchannon gains 20 lbs this summer and is the stud pass rusher he looked like in a few clips. 

     

     




    Sure. Got to hope for surprises. Maybe Jones gets 17 sacks and is healthy all year. Maybe Hightower emerges as an all-pro.

    But a sober judge probably is seeing the same old from this D despite the current draft crop.

    But remember, with Talib healthy, the same old was at least decent last year.

     

     
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    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    I see no reason to believe the D will be significantly improved from these offseason moves. Talib was an excellent addition last year and retaining him if he stays healthy should keep the D respectable rather than dismal. He was a key acquisition. I hope BB has added great contributors. I just don't see any reason to think he has at this point.

    +1


     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnHannahrulz. Show JohnHannahrulz's posts

    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    Time will tell. The good news is that the Pats D has a full season of Talib who is on a one year prove it deal; meaning Talib has to play well to get a long term lucrative contract even if it isn't the Pats that give him the contract; the Pats D was markedly worse against the Ravens when Talib was out; I think I am in the majority in not wanting to see Marquise Cole as CB in an important game. So health is, as always a big key because the Pats have no viable replacment for Talib or Fork or Jones. I see Ryan and Wilson as potential DBs who could improve the nickel or dime.

    In the past Vrabal and Mc Ginnest supplied the pass rush and played exceptionally well in playoff games. The Pats D needs Chandler Jones do continue to improve to the point where either he racks up sacks and pressures or he draws double teams/holding penalties. This also plays into the Pats D having to play better on 3rd down. The conversion rate for opponents has to go down. I distinctly remember being disappointed with the PATS D on 3rd down numerous times last year.

    Please keep in  mind that the Pats D is not a dominant D meaning two things: this current incarnation of the PATS D is still largely dependent on TOs and 2) cannot afford to carry the offense if the O is turning the ball over. In short, the Pats need to win the TO differential game. I would like to see time-consuming drives by the O because the Pats D needs to play better in the 2nd half (not exhausted/ rotational players Kelly Armstead) and the Pats team needs to learn how to win a TOP game.

    The run D looks okay. The pass  D needs a couple of things: better pass rush; better coverage on RBs and TEs (Collins, Wilson). If the Pats pass D doesn;t get as many TOs as the last two years the D is in serious trouble. The D might not be able to bail out Brady if he throws a clinker. Adding Blount and using their RBs a little more could help (something they might have to do if Gronk or anyone in WR corps is injured for significant amount time).

    All end it by saying what I have been saying for the last 2 years; the Pats D is not dominant, but they are still very young and the opportunity for them to improve and thus fulfil their potential is there. They need players not named Mayo or Wilfork to step up and excel. As an optimist, I feel this will inevitably happen; it might not happen right away. I am always happy when the D elevates its game in the playoffs. The Pats will win their division, however, can the O not turn the ball over and can the D play better situational football in the playoffs? These are questions that if answered yes; then the Pats can go on a playoff run; if no than there will be trouble and discontent on this board with blame being thrown around by nearly everyone.

     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    We won each SB by 3 points because we didn't turn it over 



    We have one passing turnover in the last 2 losing SBs and had 1 in the prior 3 wins. That hardly seems like a difference maker between losing two and winning 3.

    You lose again dumbo.

     
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