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Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Low-FB-IQ. Show Low-FB-IQ's posts

    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    We won each SB by 3 points because we didn't turn it over 

     



    We have one passing turnover in the last 2 losing SBs and had 1 in the prior 3 wins. That hardly seems like a difference maker between losing two and winning 3.

     

    You lose again dumbo.

     



    To be fair and accurate how do you figure one? I can think of two in the last superbowl. Not taking sides, just sayin'.

     

     

     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Low-FB-IQ. Show Low-FB-IQ's posts

    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    In response to Low-FB-IQ's comment:

     

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    We won each SB by 3 points because we didn't turn it over 

     



    We have one passing turnover in the last 2 losing SBs and had 1 in the prior 3 wins. That hardly seems like a difference maker between losing two and winning 3.

     

    You lose again dumbo.

     



    To be fair and accurate how do you figure one? I can think of two in the last superbowl. Not taking sides, just sayin'.

     

     

     




     

    He doesn't get that choosing not to use a lead back and commit to a real run game in some fashion, throwing 45 times, that means you have to score more than just 14 points with a QB throwing those 2 TDs.

    14 points from 45 passes ain't winning SBs.

    So, even if he has a 2 TD 0 INT SB 42, what is the point if it's 14 points?  The odds of winning an NFL game or SB with 14 points are 100-1 in this era.

    No NFL team wins a game these days by scoring 14 points (or even 17) after throwing 45 times by choice.

     



    Dude I don't care about your argument with him on any of the usually beat to death topics.

    I was merely saying there were two throwing turnovers in the last superbowl loss.

     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Low-FB-IQ. Show Low-FB-IQ's posts

    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    The intentional grounding in the endzone is a passing turnover. It happend on a "passing" play.

     
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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnHannahrulz. Show JohnHannahrulz's posts

    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    Rusty. Pretty sure I referred to Brady "throwing a clinker"; this phrase would apply to both the post-season and regular season (see Arizona or Seattle games)and essentially means he can't throw INTs at critical times in either case. Also mentioined that the current stable of RBs could allow the Pats D (and team) to win in tough time of possession game (see Pittsburgh and Balt) against reasonably good defenses and that Kelly and Armstead would improve the DL rotation (already good). Wilson signing and Ryan drafting will improve the secondary.

    All I said was the Pats D was not dominant (see 85 Bears, 2000 Ravens, 76 Steelers for point of reference). This is basically a true statement, but the D only has to play exceptionally well in important situations (then cited 3rd down). People forget this D is still fairly young and yes there is both time and room to improve. This will happen and to some extent (see Jones' Sacks and pressures and Hightower's TFLs) is already happening. The key, to me, is to keep forcing turnovers and playing good situational (nickel, dime, 3rd down) football. In the cap era and under the current rules its hard to see any team being the 76 Steelers or the 85 Bears. I'm sure most would agree that playing good-great situational football on D would help the team. It's not a criticism so much as an observation.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    In response to zbellino's comment:

     

    Also, going to add this.

    People really overlook Armstead as a 4-3 END. I think he has utility there. A lot of teams have used larger players on the edge in 43 lineups. I could see them coming out with something like Jones, VW, TK, AA. It certainly would give you solid edges.

     



    Hey this is a good point, they could always go the other direction with this defense.  Put Wilfork and Kelly inside with Jones and Armstead on the ends, all the posters agonizing over my insistence the Pats still run a 3/4 with a 2/4/5 nickel as their base could relax because we'd be running a true 4/3.  In that case I might rotate Hightower and Spikes in the middle, Mayo and  Collins on the outside.  This might be a big picture move, maybe they can't come to an agreement with Spike's agent for an extension?  

     

    But I still think BB has always been working his way back to having enough personnel to run either a 3/4 or 4/3, in a perfect world you have enough depth of talent along the front to run either or both, depending on injury.




    Wozzy, I think you are looking at the wrong personel for he 3/4. Dont lok at the DL. Look at the DB's. The CB's in a 3/4 need to play more zone than man, zone is not a strength of Dennerd or Talib. They are better press cover/jam/man on man CB's. ALso, the S need to have ange to cover more ground. McCourty is fine, but TWilson, AWilson and Gregory dont cover a lot of ground

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Low-FB-IQ. Show Low-FB-IQ's posts

    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    In response to Low-FB-IQ's comment:

     

    The intentional grounding in the endzone is a passing turnover. It happend on a "passing" play.

     




    That isn't a "turnover". Just as going for it on 4th down and failing isn't a "turnover" ( that is called a "turnover on downs"). Just as punting the ball isn't a "turnover". "Turnovers" are fumbles recovered by the other team and intercepted passes.

     

     


    That is just semantics in my opinion.

    Generally speaking, the turnover is defined as a loss of possession. They will often add the following two qualifiers you mentioned, "Fumble or Interception" into the definition as they are the two most typical ways in which that will happen.

    Brady's Intentional grounding in the endzone resulted in a safety which gave the other team both points and possesion of the ball. It will often be categorirzed as a score and kick because the safetly is sometimes situationally intentional. However Brady's  happened "prior" to down #4(the normal minimum length of a possession) and was NOT situationally intentional. That by definition, in my opinion, is a loss of possession and therefore a turnover/giveaway. It is also NOT, by definition, a turnover on downs.

    The following is a definition of give-away by the NFL.

    "A giveaway is when an offensive player turns the ball over to the other team.  A giveaway can be an interception, fumble, or other inadvertent miscue that results in the opposition gaining possession of the ball.  The term applies because by committing a turnover, the offending team, "gives the ball away," to the opposition."

    So we'll agree to disagree on the semantics but Brady had two costly mental mistakes/decisions in that superbowl resulting in lost possesions/turnovers.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    I'd count the safety as a turnover.  I don't think, however, that Brady is completely at fault on that play.  The Pats were in max protect and their blocking didn't hold.  The play broke down very fast once Vollmer lost control of Tuck and Brady had no good place to go.  He could have taken a sack, which would have had the same result or tried to throw somewhere else, but he was in the pocket (so throwing the ball out of bounds would have been intentional grounding too) and he only had three receivers (maybe four if you want to count BJGE who was starting to untangle himself from one of the Giants' rushers), all of whom were pretty well covered, since the Giants dropped seven and were rushing only four.  Risking an interception for a potential pick six wasn't exactly a good thing to do either.  Brady tossed the ball down the middle of the field in the general direction of Branch, a throw which often isn't called grounding (though it should be).  That may have been the best of a lot of bad options.  

    When seven blockers can't stop four rushers, you're just in trouble.  Typical Pats-Giants Super Bowl really. 

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    In response to Low-FB-IQ's comment:

     

    The intentional grounding in the endzone is a passing turnover. It happend on a "passing" play.

     




    That isn't a "turnover". Just as going for it on 4th down and failing isn't a "turnover" ( that is called a "turnover on downs"). Just as punting the ball isn't a "turnover". "Turnovers" are fumbles recovered by the other team and intercepted passes.

     

     



    Sorry Babe but that is incorrect, a fourth down failure is called a "turnover on downs," the reality is a safety is worse than an interception or fumble (assuming it doesn't get returned for a TD) because you spot the opposing team two points than give them possession of the ball.  

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    That being said the blame game between the offense or defense is nonsensical, we lost to the Ravens because we weren't tough enough on either side of the ball, didn't score enough, didn't stop them from scoring or take the ball away from them.

    With added beef to the interior of the D Line, a physical game changing safety like Adrian Wilson, larger more physical receivers and added tight ends like Ballard and the re-signed Huey we'll be tougher.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

     

    Wozzy, I think you are looking at the wrong personel for he 3/4. Dont lok at the DL. Look at the DB's. The CB's in a 3/4 need to play more zone than man, zone is not a strength of Dennerd or Talib. They are better press cover/jam/man on man CB's. ALso, the S need to have ange to cover more ground. McCourty is fine, but TWilson, AWilson and Gregory dont cover a lot of ground

     



    Baloney, good corners can do either and we have good corners and safeties, the problems with our defense since the departure of Seymour and Ty Warren is and always has been lack of interior pressure in the trenches.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

     

    Wozzy, I think you are looking at the wrong personel for he 3/4. Dont lok at the DL. Look at the DB's. The CB's in a 3/4 need to play more zone than man, zone is not a strength of Dennerd or Talib. They are better press cover/jam/man on man CB's. ALso, the S need to have ange to cover more ground. McCourty is fine, but TWilson, AWilson and Gregory dont cover a lot of ground

     



    Baloney, good corners can do either and we have good corners and safeties, the problems with our defense since the departure of Seymour and Ty Warren is and always has been lack of interior pressure in the trenches.



    I dont agree. I feel Talib and Dennerd are best able to press the WR rather than cover a zone. Ditto Arrington.

    I also think that the S needs to be able to cover a zone in a 3/4, which last year TWilson was not ready to do that. We dont know about AWilson as he was taken off the field for most passing downs with AZC

    I do agree that the DL pressure is important to coverage...do you think the Pats addressed that need enough this off season?  

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

    I dont agree. I feel Talib and Dennerd are best able to press the WR rather than cover a zone. Ditto Arrington.

    I also think that the S needs to be able to cover a zone in a 3/4, which last year TWilson was not ready to do that. We dont know about AWilson as he was taken off the field for most passing downs with AZC

    I do agree that the DL pressure is important to coverage...do you think the Pats addressed that need enough this off season?  



    You'd be hard pressed to find an NFL team that plays either zone or man all the time, just doesn't happen.  Teams also play partial zones and leave one defender manned up on an opposing receiver all the time.  Obviously our corners play press coverage well, both are big and physical, but there are zones that call for pressing at the line of scrimmage as well, so I don't think this has any bearing on whether you employ a 3/4 or 4/3 like you suggested.  Also if you can quickly crush a pocket and hurry the QB, than the coverage you run behind you is almost irrelevant.  I like the acquisition of Kelly and Armstead, we still have to address another nose tackle in the next couple years since Vince isn't getting any younger.

     

     
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  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnHannahrulz. Show JohnHannahrulz's posts

    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    ZB, first off I totally respect your opinion; secondly i referred to the Pats playing better  football (includes nickel, dime and 3rd down). This can happen with a better pass rush (someone other than Jones applying pressure and Wilfork and Dreaderick collapsing the pocket); Collins as edge rusher? I add that we have to see what the new D (Wilson, Ryan, Collins) is capable of in both 4-3 and 3-4 alignment (is Chandler the elephant?). I see everything as a function of the personel you have (this is why I can see Collins as an edge rusher or coverage OLB 4.6 speed/long arms). As an optimist I do think or hope that Kelly and Armstead will help provide some rotational flexibility on the defensive line. I've stated numerous times that I did feel the Pats had a D that often played well the 1st half and lost some of its edge in 2nd half giving up 3rd and longs too often (hence the comment about situational football). I do believe that, to some degree, this defense is predicated on turnovers. It just looks like it is functioning better when they create TOs. Also think that some players on the Pats D a very valuable; in the sense that the Pats D cannot afford to lose Wilfork, Mayo or Talib. It was fairly clear that after Talib went down the secondary noticably suffered (see Marquice Cole). The primary reason that I mention Collins and Wilson is that ,ideally, I could see both as providing coverage on TEs and RBs both in the box and outside the box. Curiousity tempered with some mild optimism is how I view this defense.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    Well I look at what was added this off season...Armstead, Kelly, Wilson, Collins and Talib (I'm going to pretend he's new).

    We really have no clue what Armstead will bring, but I've got to say I've been very impressed with just about every video I've seen of him online. To me this guy moves better than any defensive lineman we have on the roster, and maybe better than any big man we've had since Seymore was young. His addition (along with Collins confuses me though)....I picture Armstead in the middle pass rushing in a 43. I picture Collins in a 34 playing outside.

    Kelly should be a solid addition.

    Wilson I could see maybe coming in and helping the team before wearing down and getting tired. I think if we were to ever get the bye this year it would help a guy like him.

    Collins was a head scratcher to me to be honest, but I like his talent. I think this team really was missing what Mark Anderson gave us two years ago...I can see him coming in on third downs and giving us that type of speed rush. Jones really opened up things on the other side of the line for us, yet no one really took advantage of it as well as they could - I can see Collins capitalizing on that.

    Talib (along with Dennard) really gives us two corners that make things at least so opposing qb's aren't allowed to complete passes that high school quarterbacks could hit. I mean it's been ridiculous how easy our secondary has made it on these quarterbacks over the years...these guys changed that a bit. I remember the game we played against Denver last season and Manning really tested Dennard...Dennard made the throws difficult to complete and he actually stopped some of them. Those are things that we didn't have before. If Talib stays healthy we will have two guys that can do that...that's huge. Huge.

    So there are some questions for sure, but I think progress has been made. I will say I thought they could of done better and I've lost some confidence in their ability to acquire players through free agency, but I think Talib and Dennard automatically make the defense better.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from mgraham. Show mgraham's posts

    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    I jumped from screen 1 to screen 4 so if this is redundant I apologize.

    I think the D is greatly improved fom the START of last season. Partly due to the judicial system of Nebraska allowing Dennard to play this year. Talib and Dennard big improvement! Arrington and Collins nickel guys depending upon spread sets, extra WR or Hback, 2TE .

    adressing Abraham . living in New York , I would listen to WFAN ( Joe Bonigno especially ) and they were constantly complaining about Abrahams injury absence late in the season. That was with the Jets .. how much older and susceptible to injury is he now? I do not know his recent track record ..Atlnta???

    ill take Kelly and really want to see this Armstead guy

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    This seems like a good one to bump. Look at the comments on this thread Wozzy. Some like Z are a little hesitant to say what he will be, but you clearly are leading the charge. You say on page 1 that you expect him to start day 1 in the 3-4. Mt Hurl also noted he is like a 2nd round pick and you said even though he was signed, you consider him a draft pick. I'll go back a but further and find more.

     

    "Take care of my B*tch, I may need her back in a couple years"

    Brady to Manning after Wes signed with Denver

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    In response to TripleOG's comment:

    This seems like a good one to bump. Look at the comments on this thread Wozzy. Some like Z are a little hesitant to say what he will be, but you clearly are leading the charge. You say on page 1 that you expect him to start day 1 in the 3-4. Mt Hurl also noted he is like a 2nd round pick and you said even though he was signed, you consider him a draft pick. I'll go back a but further and find more.

     

    "Take care of my B*tch, I may need her back in a couple years"

    Brady to Manning after Wes signed with Denver



    Don't really know why it was bumped, but it's a good thread. To me the key is still Armstead...we need another talented big guy, if we don't get that from him (or another), is Kelley enough?

    I remember when we were winning those Super Bowls, we could roll out three superior defensive linemen and that was key. At one point we had three first round picks starting on that line (Wilfork, Seymore, Warren), those were three 300 pounders that could move...and not be moved. I remember the day Wilfork fell into our laps - I was so excited - I watched him destroy tripple blocks in college...tripple!! He would just power into two guys and then run right over the other to blow up plays. Parcells at the time said you could build an entire team around Wilfork, he was right. It really can't be understated how much he does for this defense, he is the one guy who if goes down the lights will go out. I saw Mayo go down for four weeks and Guyton came in and with Wilfork in front of him, it didn't matter.

    We need three of them...we got Kelley...we need one more.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Gasper pre-draft: Have Pats improved their D?

    In response to mthurl's comment:

    Don't really know why it was bumped, but it's a good thread. To me the key is still Armstead...we need another talented big guy, if we don't get that from him (or another), is Kelley enough?

     

    I remember when we were winning those Super Bowls, we could roll out three superior defensive linemen and that was key. At one point we had three first round picks starting on that line (Wilfork, Seymore, Warren), those were three 300 pounders that could move...and not be moved. I remember the day Wilfork fell into our laps - I was so excited - I watched him destroy tripple blocks in college...tripple!! He would just power into two guys and then run right over the other to blow up plays. Parcells at the time said you could build an entire team around Wilfork, he was right. It really can't be understated how much he does for this defense, he is the one guy who if goes down the lights will go out. I saw Mayo go down for four weeks and Guyton came in and with Wilfork in front of him, it didn't matter.

    We need three of them...we got Kelley...we need one more.




    Warren and Seymour were top 15 picks.  I don't think we are going to have another one of those anytime soon.  I would love to have another guy to go along with Kelly and Vince, but DT might be the thinnest position in the NFL.  Are there any defenses in the NFL right now that can put out a line that rivals what the dynasty teams had?  I have high hopes for Armstead as well, but I think we're going to have to make due with what we have (which should be better than last year as Kelly appears to be a pretty big upgrade to Love and Deaderick).

     
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