Giants/Patriots SB PICK

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    Re: Giants/Patriots SB PICK

    In Response to Re: Giants/Patriots SB PICK:
    I agree with most of your post except 2 areas. There isn't a stat in the world that will ever make Eli as good as Brady. They are on 2 different levels, and always will be.
     
    RESPONSE: Always will be? Really?? What if, God forbid, Eli's Giants win Sunday? That makes Eli two for two against Tom. Furthermore, at age 31, Eli is in his prime...and could win another SB or two. Tom turns 35 next season.   

    Receiving......I give the edge to their WRs, but our TEs are better making this a wash.
     
    RESPONSE: Agreed...if Gronk was 100%. But, he's not.

    Like any big game with evenly matched teams, this will be won in the trenches. We win that battle, and a 4th Lombardi is ours.

    RESPONSE: Agreed.
    Posted by tanbass

     
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    Re: Giants/Patriots SB PICK

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    In Response to Re: Giants/Patriots SB PICK : Firstly, a missed field goal reflects a deficiency in a team either nervousness or being blocked etc. And if the field goal had been made, that only ties the game & who knows the Pats don't win also in OT. But, Giants are not lucky...give me a break. What skill was involved in SF when a fluke bounce nicks the receiver's knee by 1/2 inch resulting in a gift TD from the 20 yard line---only score by Giants in 2nd half before OT !!! Re: Giants victory in SB a couple of years ago.... Protect the Quarterback,  Protect the Quarterback etc. etc.  Firstly there was blatant holding by the Giants but as so many games are decided by the whims of referees, we got screwed as they should have blown the whistle and stated "he was in the grasp". Regarding referees deciding a game, I am a 49er fan too having lived in SF for over 40 years but my roots are Maine so a Boston team fan first. As opposed to Manning, a quarterback, not being called for being in the grasp in that SB, a running back still visibly upright(I was at the SF game and have seen many films) was called "forward progress stopped"---hogwash !!! Call me sour grapes but with the score tied with about 2 minutes to go this was an uncalled fumble by Giants’ Ahmad Bradshaw as he was artfully stripped of the ball while still upright.   The officials declined to review the play and refused to let coach Jim Harbaugh challenge the call because a forward progress judgment cannot be overturned by replay.  SF would have had the ball on the NY 20 yard line and could have milked the clock to score a TD or kick a field goal and even if there was time left, NY would have used all its timeouts. There were previous plays where two 49er defenders collided and prevented themselves from interceptions on 2 occasions. But if the fumble had been allowed, there would not have been the fluke nicking the knee of the receiver giving the ball to NY on the 20 yard line resulting in a TD and then there wouldn't have been the fumble on the kickoff in OT giving them a field goal from the 20 yard line. The Giants in the 2nd half kicked some 10 times and Manning was hit 21 times and sacked 6 times. Without the 2 fumbles, they did not score. Tell me the Giants as in the David Tyree highlight with "in the grasp and holding" not called proves the Giants were lucky to beat the Pats in the SB and 49ers a week and a half ago. If you didn't say to yourself after 49ers game "whew, we were lucky to win this one", then you are not a true football fan !!!
    Posted by mandobello


         The Giants weren't lucky. They beat SF because they were the better all-around team. Teams like the Pats and Giants don't make the kind of special teams mistakes that the 49ers and Ravens made. The Pats and Giants win because not only do they not make mistakes, but, when they get a turnover, they capitalize on the error.

         As for the SB, despite the point spread, the Pats and Giants were fairly evenly matched in SB 42. The Giants nearly beat the Pats in the regular season. In the SB, the Patriots played poorly, and were outplayed. They allowed the Giants to "hang around", and, in the end, it cost them football immortality.   
     
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    Re: Giants/Patriots SB PICK

    In Response to Re: Giants/Patriots SB PICK:
    Here's the link:  http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204770404577080831701064656.html   In 2011, Brady has led three 4th quarter comebacks, Brees has led four, and Rodgers had only one. Eli Manning had 8. References: Eli:  http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=MannEl00 Brady:  http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=BradTo00 Brees:  http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=BreeDr00 Rodgers:  http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=RodgAa00
     
    RESPONSE: I thought you said that these QBs were at the bottom of fourth quarter comebacks. Brees with four and Brady with three is pretty good, considering that each team was dominant, and won 13 games. Bad teams don't have fourth quarter comebacks, because they lose.

      I'm saying it's an impressive feat for the team, not Eli Manning. He had a decent game, but I have to consider the number and quality of QB's that posted similar stats on the Packers defense this year.
     
    RESPONSE: The Packers lost one (1) regular season game...and routinely put up over 30 points per game. Aside from Drew Brees, Eli Manning, and Matthew Stafford, who lit up the Green Bay "D"?

      His performance againt the Broncos defense was certainly more impressive than Eli's against the Packers. It's a matchup issue: Brady vs. the Broncos defense, Eli Manning vs. the Packers defense. Not QB vs. team.
     
    RESPONSE: Nonsense. Green Bay would have crushed the Broncos, just as easily as the Patriots did. Aaron Rodgers passed for 4 TDs and over 400 yards in a 49-23 drubbing of Denver, in Green Bay, on 10/2/11:
    http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=311002009

    The reason the Giants win over GB was impressive was because they managed to contain Aaron Rodgers and that explosive offense. I don't think anybody thought Eli wasn't going to put up quite a few points on the worst defense in the league.
     
    RESPONSE: Why can't you give credit where credit is due? Eli put up 37 on the road, in the play-offs, against the 15 win, defending SB champs. If Tom Brady did that, what would you be saying? Eli passed for 330 yards, and three (3) TDs, as he completely outplayed Rodgers:
    http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=320115009

     Well, if we're going to make excuses: In Week 15, GB held KC to 19 points because the Chiefs were playing ball control to keep Rodgers off the field. In Week 16, GB held Chicago to 21 points because Da Bears were missing their starting QB and RB. In Week 17, when GB played a legitimate QB in Matthew Stafford and a good offense in Detroit, they gave up 41 points.
     
    RESPONSE: It is you who are making excuses to belittle Eli's great play. In the week 17 game, the Packers sat out several of their starters, and played back-up QB Matt Flynn. In the game that you refer to against the Bears, the Pack was up 35-10 in the 4th quarter, before they called off the dogs. The Bears tacked on 11 points during garbage time to make the game appear to be closer than it was: http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=311225009.
         In the Kansas City game, whats' your point? The Packers played poorly and lost. That was the Chiefs' SB...and Romeo Crennel's first game as head coach.  


      A penalty is a completely valid reason for calling back an INT. The defender only got the ball because his teammate was holding or committing some penalty. And as I remember, both of Tom's would-be picks were penalty-related.  First one called back because the defender tripped Edelman. On the second one, Brady knew the defense was offsides and took a free shot downfield. I'm not saying Brady had a great game against the Ravens, but Eli didn't exactly light up Candlestick Park with his performance against the Niners.
     
    RESPONSE: Brady, by his own admission, was terrible. In a rainstorm, Eli completed 32 of 58 passes for 316  yards, and two (2) TDs...against one of the best defenses in the NFL:
    http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=320122025

    Oh, so now we're taking into account PAST accomplishments. Well, in that case, has Eli (29 TD's, 16 INT's) had the same season Brady has had (39 Td's, 12 INT's)? Has Eli won 3 Super Bowl rings and 2 MVP's like Brady has? Has Eli set the single-season record for most TD passes in a regular season?
     
    RESPONSE: It is you who want to take into account the full body of work by these QBs. I specifically said that, right now, Eli is playing at least on par with Tom. That's why I called it a wash.
         As I suggested, let's agree to disagree, and see what happens Sunday. 

    Yeah, I guess we will have to. Look, it's nothing personal. I don't mind that you like Eli.

    RESPONSE: I'm not taking it personal, and I hope that you're not, either. It's not a question of me "liking Eli". Its a question of trying to be as objective as I can in evaluating the respective QBs, and teams. Believe, being objective is hard. I don't want to go through the heartbreak of 4 years ago, again...and really want to see the Pats put it to the Giants.  

    I just think it's wrong to compare him side by side with one of the greatest QB's to ever play the game.  For the record, I think Eli is a pretty good QB too, and maybe some day he'll become as good as his brother, who is rightfully in the same class as Brady. But he's not there yet.

    RESPONSE: That's not what I've said. I've said that, currently, Eli is playing at a very high level. As a result, I called the match-up between Eli and Tom a wash. When asked about the two QBs, Rodney Harrison stated that, right now, judging by the way they're playing, that he'd give the edge to Eli:
    http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/giants/harrison_want_pats_mates
    _lying_revenge_RxRxtr19XlmPdV9BcVZOBN

    Posted by kevin13130
     
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    Re: Giants/Patriots SB PICK

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    In Response to Re: Giants/Patriots SB PICK :      Bill...I pick the Patriots to win, spell out why, and conclude by telling my fellow Pats fans to be "confident and of good cheer", because the Pats will get the job done...but yet you still complain that it's not enough? I'm not going to say that the Pats are going to win, 50-0. The Pats are playing with a key player less than 100%, and are facing a very good opponent...who will beat them, if they don't bring their "A" game.       The Giants lose to good teams? Well, I guess that the Patriots, 49ers, and Packers aren't good teams then...because the Giants have beaten all three of them on the road, thus far. The Pats are healthier? Well, so are the Giants, who played without several starters in their win over the Patriots.       That said, I hope you're right about the Pats' winning convincingly. Nothing would please me more.        
    Posted by TexasPat3

    TP. maybe a poor choice of words in the early going of my post. Throughout the year you appeared, to me at least, to always have some sort of disbelief in the Patriots and would be surprised when they win games easier than you thought they may.  Giants losing to good teams, better said to say the Giants lose to good teams playing well.  Packers were not playing well and the 49ers gift wrapped that game.  Falcons stunk up the joint from the git-go.  We know what the Pats are capable of and they have been building up to this point.  Unfortunately, the talking heads still see an early season version of the Patriots and not the team that has won 10 in a row.
     
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    Re: Giants/Patriots SB PICK

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    In Response to Re: Giants/Patriots SB PICK :
    The Pats play a more systemized style of football than the Giants. They have been more consistent than the Giants throughout the year. The Giants are lucky to be in the SB. " REALLY - DIDN'T THE PATS GET IN BECAUSE OF A MISSED FIELD GOAL FROM 32 YARDS...... The Giants have played great ball throughout the playoffs, they are not lucky to be there, they deserve to be there.
    Posted by 42Giants

    Hey, I did not know a field goal by the Ravens, trailing by 3 points, would have won the game for them if the FG wasn't missed.  You presume the Pats would have lost if the Ravens tied the game?   While you own Giants got the gifts of 10 points from punt return errors giving them the ball TWICE inside the 49ers 25 or so.  NO botched returns, no 10 points and no Giants in the SB, that is clear!!!  Talk about LUCK!!!
     
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    In Response to Re: Giants/Patriots SB PICK :      Be careful not to choke on the koolaide, Babe.        This from Rodney Harrison: Harrison's loyalty to his former team has come into question because he has been critical of the Patriots as an analyst. He said this week if he had to choose a quarterback, he would take Eli Manning over Brady. "If you put to the side everything that Tom Brady has done - and it's hard to do, because the history of what Tom's done and success he's had winning three Super Bowls - but if you look strictly at what Eli has done the past six weeks, he's been fantastic,"Harrison said. "If you look at that, you almost have to give the edge to Eli. And you have to trust him because he's been fantastic." http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/giants/harrison_want_pats_mates_lying _revenge_RxRxtr19XlmPdV9BcVZOBN        Is Harrison "Brady bashing", or merely rendering an objective opinion?
    Posted by TexasPat3

    Simply going with the tidal wave of support for the Giants... Does not want to be a homer.
     
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    Re: Giants/Patriots SB PICK

    Here is the reality of this super bowl stats:
    BenJavis + Steven are combined of 150 yards + 1TD
    Wes 110 yards + 1TD
    Big Gronk + Steady fast Aaron are combined 197 yards and 2TD
    Deion 85 yards + 1 TD
    Last but not least Ocho 45 yards + 1TD
    GO PATS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Pats 45 Giants 24
    Checking propositions book you will see. :-)
     
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    Re: Giants/Patriots SB PICK

    In response to "Re: Giants/Patriots SB PICK":
    In Response to Re: Giants/Patriots SB PICK :
    The Pats play a more systemized style of football than the Giants. They have been more consistent than the Giants throughout the year. The Giants are lucky to be in the SB. " REALLY - DIDN'T THE PATS GET IN BECAUSE OF A MISSED FIELD GOAL FROM 32 YARDS...... The Giants have played great ball throughout the playoffs, they are not lucky to be there, they deserve to be there. Posted by 42Giants
    The Pats are in the SB because of two excellent defensive plays made immediately before the Ravens kicker forgot he was playing in the game and muffed the "tying" field goal. If he had made the kick the game would have been tied and the Pats would have won it in overtime. Yeah, the Gints lucked out to make the playoffs. More to the point, I was commenting on why the Patriots are favored by about three points on the line and my reasoning as to why they might be favored rather than the Giants. Although, as a Patriots fan posting in the Boston Globe, I sincerely hope the Patriots kick a** and show everyone just how lucky the Gints really were.
     
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    Re: Giants/Patriots SB PICK

    Would you rather have the team with the most 4th quarter come backs or the team with the most Garbage time yards and points allowed in the 4th quarter. 

    Can we just start the game right now and beat the crap out of these loud mouth NYers? 

    Patriots 31 Aints 10 in the first half, Aints make it look closer in the 2nd half for a final of Pats 41 Aints 24....Stike up the BBQ!!!
     
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    Re: Giants/Patriots SB PICK

    I think this is the making of a "trap-game" for the Pats...
     
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    How is this a trap game, they are not being picked by anybody not even on this board!
     
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    In Response to Re: Giants/Patriots SB PICK : Simply going with the tidal wave of support for the Giants... Does not want to be a homer.
    Posted by agcsbill


         Come on now, Bill...LOL!!!
     
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    Re: Giants/Patriots SB PICK

    In Response to Re: Giants/Patriots SB PICK:

    In 2011, Brady has led three 4th quarter comebacks, Brees has led four, and Rodgers had only one. Eli Manning had 8. 
    RESPONSE: I thought you said that these QBs were at the bottom of fourth quarter comebacks. Brees with four and Brady with three is pretty good, considering that each team was dominant, and won 13 games. Bad teams don't have fourth quarter comebacks, because they lose.

    I'm pretty sure you just made my point. Brady, Brees, Rodgers are elite because they outscore the other teams so much that the game is basically over by the 3rd quarter. Eli Manning has had 8 fourth quarter comebacks this season because he hasn't shredded his opponents like Brady, Brees, and Rodgers did.

    RESPONSE: The Packers lost one (1) regular season game...and routinely put up over 30 points per game. Aside from Drew Brees, Eli Manning, and Matthew Stafford, who lit up the Green Bay "D"?

    Like you said, Packers won 15 games from putting up a lot of points, not because their defense was any good.

    His performance againt the Broncos defense was certainly more impressive than Eli's against the Packers. It's a matchup issue: Brady vs. the Broncos defense, Eli Manning vs. the Packers defense. Not QB vs. team.
    RESPONSE: Nonsense. Green Bay would have crushed the Broncos, just as easily as the Patriots did. Aaron Rodgers passed for 4 TDs and over 400 yards in a 49-23 drubbing of Denver, in Green Bay, on 10/2/11: 
    http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=311002009

    Yes, I would expect the Packers to crush the Broncos because Rodgers is an elite quarterback and had the best offense in the NFL this year. I'm not sure what your point is.

    RESPONSE: Why can't you give credit where credit is due? Eli put up 37 on the road, in the play-offs, against the 15 win, defending SB champs. If Tom Brady did that, what would you be saying? Eli passed for 330 yards, and three (3) TDs, as he completely outplayed Rodgers: 
    http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=320115009

    I thought Eli had a good game, but I have to take into account the defense he did it against. 

    He put up 37 points because the Packers turned the ball over 4 times, gave up a Hail Mary TD just before halftime, and couldn't tackle Nicks, allowing a 15 yard catch to turn into a 66-yard touchdown. Am I going to blame Eli because the Packers made so many mistakes? No. But I can't give credit to him for the other team's blunders either.

    And stop it with the Eli outplayed Rodgers. He played a bad defense while Rodgers had to face a great pass rush. If one guy struggles to lift 200 lbs while another guy easily lifts 50 lbs, did the second guy out-lift the first guy?

    RESPONSE: It is you who are making excuses to belittle Eli's great play. In the week 17 game, the Packers sat out several of their starters, and played back-up QB Matt Flynn. In the game that you refer to against the Bears, the Pack was up 35-10 in the 4th quarter, before they called off the dogs. The Bears tacked on 11 points during garbage time to make the game appear to be closer than it was: http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=311225009.
         In the Kansas City game, whats' your point? The Packers played poorly and lost. That was the Chiefs' SB...and Romeo Crennel's first game as head coach.  


    My goal is not to belittle Eli's play. It's to show that you're overestimating his play. I'm not going to go into game-specific detail about the circumstances behind the Packers defense being torched. All you need to know is that they have the 32nd ranked pass defense, and there's a reason for that.

    RESPONSE: Brady, by his own admission, was terrible. In a rainstorm, Eli completed 32 of 58 passes for 316  yards, and two (2) TDs...against one of the best defenses in the NFL: 
    http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=320122025

    Brady, by his own STANDARDS, was terrible. So I agree, he had an off game. I'm sure Eli hasn't had plenty of those.

    I think you're basing too much off stats. Eli didn't throw 3 picks because he didn't, the defenders dropped them. But I think you should question his decision-making because if he makes those same mistakes again, the next defender might hang on to the ball.

    What I saw was Eli struggle against the Niners. He couldn't bring his Giants back until Kyle Williams mismanaged the punt return. Eli couldn't move the ball downfield to win the game before overtime, or during overtime. When Williams fumbled again at the end, all Eli had to do was hand the ball off 3 times and give it to the kicker. There's no shame in struggling against the best D in the league, but what part of that impressed you?

    RESPONSE: It is you who want to take into account the full body of work by these QBs. I specifically said that, right now, Eli is playing at least on par with Tom. That's why I called it a wash.
         As I suggested, let's agree to disagree, and see what happens Sunday.  

    Well now you're just contradicting yourself. I said Matt Moore had a stretch of games where he played as well as Tom Brady, and I asked if Moore is supposed to be in the same class as Brady based on those few games. You said no, Matt Moore doesn't have the Super Bowl rings, the playoff wins, and the 4th quarter comebacks. So now when I apply that logic to Brady and Eli, you tell me you're only considering the QB play at the present. Which one are you evaluating them on?

    RESPONSE: I'm not taking it personal, and I hope that you're not, either. It's not a question of me "liking Eli". Its a question of trying to be as objective as I canin evaluating the respective QBs, and teams.  

    Oh, actually I meant it as in I have nothing personal against Eli, but I'm glad you see this as healthy debate as I do. I had Eli as my starting fantasy QB this season, so I guess I kind of like him. I'm only rooting against him because he's playing the Patriots.

    I just think it's wrong to compare him side by side with one of the greatest QB's to ever play the game.  For the record, I think Eli is a pretty good QB too, and maybe some day he'll become as good as his brother, who is rightfully in the same class as Brady. But he's not there yet.
    RESPONSE: That's not what I've said. I've said that, currently, Eli is playing at a very high level. As a result, I called the match-up between Eli and Tom a wash. When asked about the two QBs, Rodney Harrison stated that, right now, judging by the way they're playing, that he'd give the edge to Eli: 
    http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/giants/harrison_want_pats_mates
    _lying_revenge_RxRxtr19XlmPdV9BcVZOBN

    The danger in judging players this way is highlighted in the Matt Moore example. Let's say Eli plays well enough to win in 3 of every 4 games. He has won 5 straight since the Jets in Week 16. Is he now likely to play well in the 6th game because he has done so the past five? Or is he due for a bad game since he only wins at a 3/4 clip? Neither, he has the same 75% chance of playing well because the games are independent of each other. He may be on a hot streak right now, but for every '10 Drew Brees and '11 Aaron Rodgers and maybe '12 Eli Manning that "heat up" during the playoffs, there are a lot of QB's that don't get on that lucky streak and fall short.

     
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    Re: Giants/Patriots SB PICK

    In Response to Re: Giants/Patriots SB PICK:
    In Response to Re: Giants/Patriots SB PICK : In 2011, Brady has led three 4th quarter comebacks, Brees has led four, and Rodgers had only one. Eli Manning had 8.   RESPONSE: I thought you said that these QBs were at the bottom of fourth quarter comebacks. Brees with four and Brady with three is pretty good, considering that each team was dominant, and won 13 games. Bad teams don't have fourth quarter comebacks, because they lose. I'm pretty sure you just made my point. Brady, Brees, Rodgers are elite because they outscore the other teams so much that the game is basically over by the 3rd quarter. Eli Manning has had 8 fourth quarter comebacks this season because he hasn't shredded his opponents like Brady, Brees, and Rodgers did.
     
    RESPONSE: You stated that they were at the bottom of the list for 4th quarter comebacks...but have offered no proof to back that up. So, how have I "made your point"?  

    RESPONSE: The Packers lost one (1) regular season game...and routinely put up over 30 points per game. Aside from Drew Brees, Eli Manning, and Matthew Stafford, who lit up the Green Bay "D"? Like you said, Packers won 15 games from putting up a lot of points, not because of their defense was any good. His performance againt the Broncos defense was certainly more impressive than Eli's against the Packers. It's a matchup issue: Brady vs. the Broncos defense, Eli Manning vs. the Packers defense.
     
    RESPONSE: Sorry...but your perceived point that playing Tim Tebow and the Denver Broncos at home is a ggreater challenge than dealing with aaron Rodgers and the 15-1 Pack on the road is silly.

    Not QB vs. team. RESPONSE: Nonsense. Green Bay would have crushed the Broncos, just as easily as the Patriots did. Aaron Rodgers passed for 4 TDs and over 400 yards in a 49-23 drubbing of Denver, in Green Bay, on 10/2/11:  http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=311002009 Yes, I would expect the Packers to crush the Broncos because Aaron Rodgers is an elite quarterback and he had the best offense in the NFL this year. I'm not sure what your point is.
     
    RESPONSE: What's your point? How can you claim than that the Pats crushing the Broncos at home was somehow more impressive than the Giants crushing Green Bay on the road?

    RESPONSE: Why can't you give credit where credit is due? Eli put up 37 on the road, in the play-offs, against the 15 win, defending SB champs. If Tom Brady did that, what would you be saying? Eli passed for 330 yards, and three (3) TDs, as he completely outplayed Rodgers:  http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=320115009 I'm not sure credit is due. I thought Eli had a good game, but I have to take into account the defense he did it against.  He put up 37 points because the Packers turned the ball over 4 times, gave up a Hail Mary TD just before halftime, and couldn't tackle Nicks, allowing a 15 yard catch to turn into a 66-yard touchdown. Am I going to blame Eli because the Packers made so many mistakes? No. But I can't give credit to him for the other team's blunders either. And stop it with the Eli outplayed Rodgers. He played a bad defense while Rodgers had to face a great pass rush. If one guy struggles to lift 200 lbs while another guy easily lifts 50 lbs, did the second guy out-lift the first guy?
     
    RESPONSE: Surely you jest. How many times have Gronk, Branch, Welker, and Hernandez turned short passes into huge gains this season? 

    RESPONSE: It is you who are making excuses to belittle Eli's great play. In the week 17 game, the Packers sat out several of their starters, and played back-up QB Matt Flynn. In the game that you refer to against the Bears, the Pack was up 35-10 in the 4th quarter, before they called off the dogs. The Bears tacked on 11 points during garbage time to make the game appear to be closer than it was:  http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=311225009 .      In the Kansas City game, whats' your point? The Packers played poorly and lost. That was the Chiefs' SB...and Romeo Crennel's first game as head coach.   My goal is not to belittle Eli's play. It's to show that you're overestimating his play. I'm not going to go into game-specific detail about the circumstances behind the Packers defense being torched. All you need to know is that they have the 32nd ranked pass defense, and there's a reason for that.
     
    RESPONSE: So...if Eli torches the Pats this Sunday, you'll simply chalk iit up that he did it against the 31st ranked pass defense? If Brady riddled the Packers in GB the way Eli did, and I gave Brady a lower grade because GB had the 32nd ranked pass defense, how would you respond? Green Bay and the ats both had a good take-away ratio. Doesn't Eli get credit for avoiding the big mistake?  

    RESPONSE: Brady, by his own admission, was terrible. In a rainstorm, Eli completed 32 of 58 passes for 316  yards, and two (2) TDs...against one of the best defenses in the NFL:  http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=320122025 Brady, by his own STANDARDS, was terrible. So yeah, he had an off game. I'm sure Eli hasn't had plenty of those. You really are basing too much off the stats. You obviously can't say he threw 3 picks because he didn't, the defenders dropped them. But I think you should question his decision-making because if he makes those same mistakes again, the next defender might hang on to the ball. What I saw was Eli struggle against the Niners. He couldn't bring his Giants back until Kyle Williams mismanaged the punt return. Eli couldn't move the ball downfield to win the game before overtime, or during overtime. When Williams fumbled again at the end, all Eli had to do was hand the ball off 3 times and give it to the kicker. There's no shame in struggling against the best D in the league, but what part of that impressed you?
     
    RESPONSE: The Giants' OL and running game was terrible against the 49ers. Despite getting drilled regularly, Eli dusted himself off, and turned in a turnover free, huge passing numbers game. For the 3rd time, we're not discussing the total body of work between him and Brady. We're talking about how the two QBs are playing now!  

    RESPONSE: It is you who want to take into account the full body of work by these QBs. I specifically said that, right now, Eli is playing at least on par with Tom. That's why I called it a wash.      As I suggested, let's agree to disagree, and see what happens Sunday.   Well now you're just contradicting yourself. I said Matt Moore had a stretch of games where he played as well as Tom Brady, and I asked if Moore is supposed to be in the same class as Brady based on those few games. You said no, Matt Moore doesn't have the Super Bowl rings, the playoff wins, and the 4th quarter comebacks. So now when I apply that logic to Brady and Eli, you tell me you're only considering the QB play at the present. Which one are you evaluating them on?
     
    RESPONSE: I have no idea what you're talking about. Is it worth trying to misrepresent to save your bogus position?  

    RESPONSE: I'm not taking it personal, and I hope that you're not, either. It's not a question of me "liking Eli". Its a question of trying to be as objective as I canin evaluating the respective QBs, and teams.    Oh, actually I meant it as in I have nothing personal against Eli, but I'm glad you see this as healthy debate as I do. I had Eli as my starting fantasy QB this season. I'm only rooting against him because he's playing the Patriots. I just think it's wrong to compare him side by side with one of the greatest QB's to ever play the game.  For the record, I think Eli is a pretty good QB too, and maybe some day he'll become as good as his brother, who is rightfully in the same class as Brady. But he's not there yet. RESPONSE: That's not what I've said. I've said that, currently, Eli is playing at a very high level. As a result, I called the match-up between Eli and Tom a wash. When asked about the two QBs, Rodney Harrison stated that, right now, judging by the way they're playing, that he'd give the edge to Eli:  http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/giants/harrison_want_pats_mates _lying_revenge_RxRxtr19XlmPdV9BcVZOBN The danger in judging players this way is highlighted in the Matt Moore example. Let's say Eli plays well enough to win in 3 of every 4 games. He has won 5 straight since the Jets in Week 16. Is he now likely to play well in the 6th game because he has done so the past five? Or is he due for a bad game since he only wins at a 3/4 clip? Neither, he has the same 75% chance of playing well because the games are independent of each other. He may be on a hot streak right now, but for every '10 Drew Brees and '11 Aaron Rodgers and maybe '12 Eli Manning that "heat up" during the playoffs, there are a lot of QB's that don't get on that lucky streak and fall short.
    Posted by kevin13130


    RESPONSE: I'm done going around in circles with you on this. I have stated my case and my opinion. If you disagree, fine.   
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from kevin13130. Show kevin13130's posts

    Re: Giants/Patriots SB PICK

    My two main points are these:
    1) Eli had a good game against the Green Bay defense. It's not easy to beat the Packers in Lambeau because Rodgers usually outscores you. It's not hard to score on the Green Bay defense. If Eli lights up our defense this Sunday, it's not super impressive because QB's like Ryan Fitzpatrick and Dan Orlovsky have done it. Why don't you understand that it's not about Eli vs Green Bay. It's Eli vs Green Bay's defense.

    2) Eli is not playing at the same level as Tom, nor has he ever done so. Just because he had a relatively good stretch of games doesn't make him elite. If you want to talk about 4th quarter comebacks, you're talking about what he's done this season and not what he's doing now. Because you flip-flop on what you choose to evaluate Eli on, I have to argue that Tom has had a better season, and that he has outplayed Eli in recent games as well.

    I'll leave it at that.
     
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