Re: Giants/Patriots SB PICK
posted at 2/3/2012 6:06 PM EST
In Response to Re: Giants/Patriots SB PICK
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Giants/Patriots SB PICK : In 2011, Brady has led three 4th quarter comebacks, Brees has led four, and Rodgers had only one. Eli Manning had 8. RESPONSE: I thought you said that these QBs were at the bottom of fourth quarter comebacks. Brees with four and Brady with three is pretty good, considering that each team was dominant, and won 13 games. Bad teams don't have fourth quarter comebacks, because they lose. I'm pretty sure you just made my point. Brady, Brees, Rodgers are elite because they outscore the other teams so much that the game is basically over by the 3rd quarter. Eli Manning has had 8 fourth quarter comebacks this season because he hasn't shredded his opponents like Brady, Brees, and Rodgers did. RESPONSE: You stated that they were at the bottom of the list for 4th quarter comebacks...but have offered no proof to back that up. So, how have I "made your point"?
RESPONSE: The Packers lost one (1) regular season game...and routinely put up over 30 points per game. Aside from Drew Brees, Eli Manning, and Matthew Stafford, who lit up the Green Bay "D"? Like you said, Packers won 15 games from putting up a lot of points, not because of their defense was any good. His performance againt the Broncos defense was certainly more impressive than Eli's against the Packers. It's a matchup issue: Brady vs. the Broncos defense, Eli Manning vs. the Packers defense. RESPONSE: Sorry...but your perceived point that playing Tim Tebow and the Denver Broncos at home is a ggreater challenge than dealing with aaron Rodgers and the 15-1 Pack on the road is silly.
Not QB vs. team. RESPONSE: Nonsense. Green Bay would have crushed the Broncos, just as easily as the Patriots did. Aaron Rodgers passed for 4 TDs and over 400 yards in a 49-23 drubbing of Denver, in Green Bay, on 10/2/11: http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=311002009
Yes, I would expect the Packers to crush the Broncos because Aaron Rodgers is an elite quarterback and he had the best offense in the NFL this year. I'm not sure what your point is. RESPONSE: What's your point? How can you claim than that the Pats crushing the Broncos at home was somehow more impressive than the Giants crushing Green Bay on the road?
RESPONSE: Why can't you give credit where credit is due? Eli put up 37 on the road, in the play-offs, against the 15 win, defending SB champs. If Tom Brady did that, what would you be saying? Eli passed for 330 yards, and three (3) TDs, as he completely outplayed Rodgers: http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=320115009
I'm not sure credit is due. I thought Eli had a good game, but I have to take into account the defense he did it against. He put up 37 points because the Packers turned the ball over 4 times, gave up a Hail Mary TD just before halftime, and couldn't tackle Nicks, allowing a 15 yard catch to turn into a 66-yard touchdown. Am I going to blame Eli because the Packers made so many mistakes? No. But I can't give credit to him for the other team's blunders either. And stop it with the Eli outplayed Rodgers. He played a bad defense while Rodgers had to face a great pass rush. If one guy struggles to lift 200 lbs while another guy easily lifts 50 lbs, did the second guy out-lift the first guy? RESPONSE: Surely you jest. How many times have Gronk, Branch, Welker, and Hernandez turned short passes into huge gains this season?
RESPONSE: It is you who are making excuses to belittle Eli's great play. In the week 17 game, the Packers sat out several of their starters, and played back-up QB Matt Flynn. In the game that you refer to against the Bears, the Pack was up 35-10 in the 4th quarter, before they called off the dogs. The Bears tacked on 11 points during garbage time to make the game appear to be closer than it was: http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=311225009
. In the Kansas City game, whats' your point? The Packers played poorly and lost. That was the Chiefs' SB...and Romeo Crennel's first game as head coach. My goal is not to belittle Eli's play. It's to show that you're overestimating his play. I'm not going to go into game-specific detail about the circumstances behind the Packers defense being torched. All you need to know is that they have the 32nd ranked pass defense, and there's a reason for that. RESPONSE: So...if Eli torches the Pats this Sunday, you'll simply chalk iit up that he did it against the 31st ranked pass defense? If Brady riddled the Packers in GB the way Eli did, and I gave Brady a lower grade because GB had the 32nd ranked pass defense, how would you respond? Green Bay and the ats both had a good take-away ratio. Doesn't Eli get credit for avoiding the big mistake?
RESPONSE: Brady, by his own admission, was terrible. In a rainstorm, Eli completed 32 of 58 passes for 316 yards, and two (2) TDs...against one of the best defenses in the NFL: http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=320122025
Brady, by his own STANDARDS, was terrible. So yeah, he had an off game. I'm sure Eli hasn't had plenty of those. You really are basing too much off the stats. You obviously can't say he threw 3 picks because he didn't, the defenders dropped them. But I think you should question his decision-making because if he makes those same mistakes again, the next defender might hang on to the ball. What I saw was Eli struggle against the Niners. He couldn't bring his Giants back until Kyle Williams mismanaged the punt return. Eli couldn't move the ball downfield to win the game before overtime, or during overtime. When Williams fumbled again at the end, all Eli had to do was hand the ball off 3 times and give it to the kicker. There's no shame in struggling against the best D in the league, but what part of that impressed you? RESPONSE: The Giants' OL and running game was terrible against the 49ers. Despite getting drilled regularly, Eli dusted himself off, and turned in a turnover free, huge passing numbers game. For the 3rd time, we're not discussing the total body of work between him and Brady. We're talking about how the two QBs are playing now!
RESPONSE: It is you who want to take into account the full body of work by these QBs. I specifically said that, right now, Eli is playing at least on par with Tom. That's why I called it a wash. As I suggested, let's agree to disagree, and see what happens Sunday. Well now you're just contradicting yourself. I said Matt Moore had a stretch of games where he played as well as Tom Brady, and I asked if Moore is supposed to be in the same class as Brady based on those few games. You said no, Matt Moore doesn't have the Super Bowl rings, the playoff wins, and the 4th quarter comebacks. So now when I apply that logic to Brady and Eli, you tell me you're only considering the QB play at the present. Which one are you evaluating them on? RESPONSE: I have no idea what you're talking about. Is it worth trying to misrepresent to save your bogus position?
RESPONSE: I'm not taking it personal, and I hope that you're not, either. It's not a question of me "liking Eli". Its a question of trying to be as objective as I canin evaluating the respective QBs, and teams. Oh, actually I meant it as in I have nothing personal against Eli, but I'm glad you see this as healthy debate as I do. I had Eli as my starting fantasy QB this season. I'm only rooting against him because he's playing the Patriots. I just think it's wrong to compare him side by side with one of the greatest QB's to ever play the game. For the record, I think Eli is a pretty good QB too, and maybe some day he'll become as good as his brother, who is rightfully in the same class as Brady. But he's not there yet. RESPONSE: That's not what I've said. I've said that, currently, Eli is playing at a very high level. As a result, I called the match-up between Eli and Tom a wash. When asked about the two QBs, Rodney Harrison stated that, right now, judging by the way they're playing, that he'd give the edge to Eli: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/giants/harrison_want_pats_mates
_lying_revenge_RxRxtr19XlmPdV9BcVZOBN The danger in judging players this way is highlighted in the Matt Moore example. Let's say Eli plays well enough to win in 3 of every 4 games. He has won 5 straight since the Jets in Week 16. Is he now likely to play well in the 6th game because he has done so the past five? Or is he due for a bad game since he only wins at a 3/4 clip? Neither, he has the same 75% chance of playing well because the games are independent of each other. He may be on a hot streak right now, but for every '10 Drew Brees and '11 Aaron Rodgers and maybe '12 Eli Manning that "heat up" during the playoffs, there are a lot of QB's that don't get on that lucky streak and fall short.
Posted by kevin13130[/QUOTE]RESPONSE: I'm done going around in circles with you on this. I have stated my case and my opinion. If you disagree, fine.