Good Running Game Overrated?

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    Re: Good Running Game Overrated?

    In Response to Re: Good Running Game Overrated?:
    [QUOTE]In response to "Re: Good Running Game Overrated?":  It extends drives, converts first downs, allows your defense to sit and watch the offense wear down the opposing defense.
    Posted by wozzy[/QUOTE]


    So, you're saying passing can't do those things wozzydoo?
     
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    Re: Good Running Game Overrated?

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    [QUOTE]In response to "Re: Good Running Game Overrated?":Running keeps a defense honest, allows O linemen to attack forward instead of falling back on their heels in pass protection. None of this is up for debate
    Posted by wozzy[/QUOTE]

    Using your immense football mastermind explain for us wozzydoo why "attacking forward" is better for offensive linemen than "falling back on their heels in pass protection".

    I know brilliant comments like that aren't debatable since it's football 101 and all, but give us some detail on why that is so.
     
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    Re: Good Running Game Overrated?

    In Response to Re: Good Running Game Overrated?:
    [QUOTE] The game may have changed in the regular season but it hasn't changed the playoffs.
    Posted by wozzy[/QUOTE]

    Okay. Now explain to us how the Giants just won the SB with Eli throwing 40 times. I'm sure your answer will be just as brilliant as your entire post.
     
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    Re: Good Running Game Overrated?

    In Response to Re: Good Running Game Overrated?:
    [QUOTE] one great benefit of the Ernhardt-Perkins offensive system, you outlast the opposing team, control the clock, you don't beat them, just out last them.
    Posted by wozzy[/QUOTE]


    Ahhh. I see. Kind of like keep it close and watch the Pats' D fold like a cheap suit to lose the Lombardi on the last drive. Gotcha. Great strategy.
     
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    Re: Good Running Game Overrated?


    There are two things that have to happen for Wozzy's clock-killing running approach to work:

    1. You have to be able to get first downs running the ball.  If your running game isn't good enough to give you a lot of short yardage plays on second and third downs, you end up with a lot of shortened drives and a lot of punts, which doesn't do anything to help control clock.

    2. Your defense has to be good, because running a 10 minute drive doesn't really help you all that much if the other team comes back and scores a TD in two or three minutes. 

    Now, if you have a truly good running game that can consistently get yards and first downs and your defense is good, running a lot (maybe even more than the NFL average of ~43% of the time) is a good strategy.  If you can't though, the running game is more important as a way to shift what you're doing and keep the defense off balance than a way to eat clock.  Most teams are using it more for diversity than for the clock-killing strategy Wozzy is talking about.  To play Wozzy's game you really need both an exceptional running game and a good D.  

    That wasn't the Pats last year, which is why BB did something else.

      




     
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    Re: Good Running Game Overrated?

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Good Running Game Overrated? : i said this 20 times last season along with needing the outside wr. there will be too many threats to attempt to cover, leaving at least a couple of things to exploit. i dont remember anyone acknowledging they got what i was talking about many argued the points
    Posted by bredbru[/QUOTE]

    Agreed. You have to run the ball effectively enough to keep the defense off balance. And the outside WR opens up lanes in the opposing secondary. The key is an offense can never become predictable and must make adjustments based on opposing defenses adjustments.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Good Running Game Overrated?

    In Response to Re: Good Running Game Overrated?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Good Running Game Overrated? : Agreed. You have to run the ball effectively enough to keep the defense off balance. And the outside WR opens up lanes in the opposing secondary. The key is an offense can never become predictable and must make adjustments based on opposing defenses adjustments.
    Posted by JohnHannahrulz[/QUOTE]

         Yes. Passing now sets up the run, wheras in years past, it was the other way around. Too many teams are playing a 3-4, which is a more difficult defense to run against. Joseph Addai made a career in Indy picking up the scraps left from Peyton Manning's torrid passing attack.  
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from GadisRKO. Show GadisRKO's posts

    Re: Good Running Game Overrated?

    Not sure if this has been mentioned in this thread but here is my take:

    Why do the Pats NEED a viable running attack? Simple, Play Action.

    Brady is ABSOLUTELY terrific when he uses play action under center, its almost always a nice gain. How in the world can you run play action IF you lack a running game? Its just asking to get sacked/pressured in the pocket.

    Everyone here that has watched Brady play over his career knows one of his strength's is play action. You need the Defense to respect your running game for play action to work properly.

    Establishing a running game wears down a defense physically, keeps the clock running(giving your own defense a breather) helping with time of possession, opens up play action and in late game allows you to effectively run out the clock.

    Now do I think we need a superstar that will churn out 125+ yards a game? Heck no! We need someone that can impose their will on the defense and a commitment to running the ball enough for the defense to honor it. I think Ridley with a sprinkle of Vereen could be the solution, hopefully BB sees the same thing.
     
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    Re: Good Running Game Overrated?

    Game has changed.  The Pats short passing game is their running game. 
     
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    Re: Good Running Game Overrated?

    In Response to Re: Good Running Game Overrated?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Good Running Game Overrated? : Using your immense football mastermind explain for us wozzydoo why "attacking forward" is better for offensive linemen than "falling back on their heels in pass protection". I know brilliant comments like that aren't debatable since it's football 101 and all, but give us some detail on why that is so.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    It's pretty obvious that you have never played organized football, even at the highschool level.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Good Running Game Overrated?

    In Response to Re: Good Running Game Overrated?:
    [QUOTE]There are two things that have to happen for Wozzy's clock-killing running approach to work: 1. You have to be able to get first downs running the ball.  If your running game isn't good enough to give you a lot of short yardage plays on second and third downs, you end up with a lot of shortened drives and a lot of punts, which doesn't do anything to help control clock. 2. Your defense has to be good, because running a 10 minute drive doesn't really help you all that much if the other team comes back and scores a TD in two or three minutes.  Now, if you have a truly good running game that can consistently get yards and first downs and your defense is good, running a lot (maybe even more than the NFL average of ~43% of the time) is a good strategy.  If you can't though, the running game is more important as a way to shift what you're doing and keep the defense off balance than a way to eat clock.  Most teams are using it more for diversity than for the clock-killing strategy Wozzy is talking about.  To play Wozzy's game you really need both an exceptional running game and a good D.   That wasn't the Pats last year, which is why BB did something else.   
    Posted by prolate0spheroid[/QUOTE]

    1. Would you agree that even if a team has a pedestrian 4 yard per attempt average and they run twice they will be likely to get close to ten yards for a first down?  

    Isn't Tom Brady more likely to complete a short (1 or 2 yards) first down attempt if the opposing team isn't sure whether the next play will be a run or pass because the offensive coordinator for the Pat's has been mixing it up all day, keeping them off balance?

    2. Every team that hopes to win needs a good defense, not just teams that choose to run. This makes no sense at all.  

    Offense, defense and special teams work in tandem, what one does affects the other two. Offense doesn't happen in a vacuum. Until the naysayer's here understand that all three phases work together than all this talk about balance goes completely over your head. You completely dismiss the clock and field position as if it is nothing.

    Whether BB chose to run less because of lack of talent amongst his runningbacks or possibly their health last season (and previous year's) is unknown both to me and anyone else here, none of us are privy to a genuine injury report or Bill's innermost thoughts on the limitations of his backs... even those who post their opinion as if it is fact.  

    But I know that Josh McDaniel's is the last coordinator who provided some semblance of balance to our offense and we now possess a stable of young, athletic, workhorse backs that can catch out of the backfield so there should be no excuses this year. 

    I have high hopes for the offense this year that they will be more than a finesse team that only produces in the regular season and can overwhelm superior playoff caliber defenses to impose their will.

     
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    Re: Good Running Game Overrated?

    In Response to Re: Good Running Game Overrated?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Good Running Game Overrated? : It's pretty obvious that you have never played organized football, even at the highschool level.
    Posted by wozzy[/QUOTE]

    I figured when it came down to it you wouldn't be able to back up your idiotic  cliches. You never disappoint.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Good Running Game Overrated?

    In Response to Re: Good Running Game Overrated?:
    [QUOTE] Isn't Tom Brady more likely to complete a short (1 or 2 yards) first down attempt if the opposing team isn't sure whether the next play will be a run or pass because the offensive coordinator for the Pat's has been mixing it up all day, keeping them off balance?
    Posted by wozzy[/QUOTE]

    News flash for you wozzydoo. We ran the ball 438 times last season.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: Good Running Game Overrated?

    In Response to Re: Good Running Game Overrated?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Good Running Game Overrated? : Agreed. You have to run the ball effectively enough to keep the defense off balance. And the outside WR opens up lanes in the opposing secondary. The key is an offense can never become predictable and must make adjustments based on opposing defenses adjustments.
    Posted by JohnHannahrulz[/QUOTE]

    +1 hannahrulz
     
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    Re: Good Running Game Overrated?

    In Response to Re: Good Running Game Overrated?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Good Running Game Overrated? : +1 hannahrulz
    Posted by bredbru[/QUOTE]

    Agreed, great post by Hannah, somebody who has the legitimacy of his namesake on this board. 
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Good Running Game Overrated?

         Here's more proof at how even great RBs like Maurice Jones-Drew, Matt Forte, and Ray Rice are being devalued: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/05/23/ray-rice-will-not-get-the-contract-he-wants/
     
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    Re: Good Running Game Overrated?

    In Response to Re: Good Running Game Overrated?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Good Running Game Overrated? : Agreed, the ironic part about Marino is that Shula's undefeated 72' team had not one but two thousand yard rusher's, he got all his rings with a great run game, solid defense and solid but unspectacular QB play. By the time Marino came along Don was too old to fight him day in and day out. We had our own Marino clone in Bledsoe, Parcell's fought him constantly to run the plays he called instead of calling an audible to a pass on every down, it was well documented in the daily papers, Drew never really got it.  When Brady finally came along, just having somebody who did what he was told and could execute a game plan was better than an all world arm. The rest of the team was ready to win, they were just waiting for the right leader who could sacrifice personal glory for the sake of the team. It's a luxury to have somebody who can pass 45 times to get you a come from behind win, it's a weakness when you rely on it.
    Posted by wozzy[/QUOTE]
    Parcells constantly faught with Bledsoe to run the plays that were called? I can't remember that ever happening. I remeber Parcells ripping Bledsoe because he couldn't look off a safety or would latch on to one guy when there would be a wide open guy somewhere else...result...incopletion or pick. I don't remeber him audibling out of a run play - Parcells would of tore his arms off for that.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Good Running Game Overrated?

    In Response to Re: Good Running Game Overrated?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Good Running Game Overrated? : 1. Would you agree that even if a team has a pedestrian 4 yard per attempt average and they run twice they will be likely to get close to ten yards for a first down?  [/QUOTE]

    It depends a bit on how they get that average.  A lot of times a team gets that average with a few big runs and a lot of less big ones.  I think good running teams need to average closer to 4.5 or 5 yards per carry than 4. (The Pats actually averaged 4.0 last year--the Vikings who really are a running team averaged 5.2; the Texans who are also good averaged 4.5.)


    [QUOTE] Isn't Tom Brady more likely to complete a short (1 or 2 yards) first down attempt if the opposing team isn't sure whether the next play will be a run or pass because the offensive coordinator for the Pat's has been mixing it up all day, keeping them off balance? [/QUOTE]

    Yep . . . I agree mixing it up is good -- if you can do it effectively.  The Pats actually have mixed it up (remember they run about at the NFL average rate)--but they tend to use odd running plays out of the shotgun.  I think that has a lot to do with the quality of the backs and the fact that there offense is often showing pass and running out of passing formations to confuse the defense.

    [QUOTE]2. Every team that hopes to win needs a good defense, not just teams that choose to run. This makes no sense at all.   [/QUOTE]

    Running teams tend to score less so it becomes even more imperative for their defenses to be good.  This is the very definition of complementary football. 


    [QUOTE]Offense, defense and special teams work in tandem, what one does affects the other two. Offense doesn't happen in a vacuum. Until the naysayer's here understand that all three phases work together than all this talk about balance goes completely over your head. You completely dismiss the clock and field position as if it is nothing. [/QUOTE]

    Actually I don't.  I just think that the clock is the responsibility of both offense and defense.  If the defense can't get other teams off the field it hurts TOP just as much as an offense that can't stay on the field.  TOP isn't the responsibility of one side of the team . . . And defense contributes to field position too.  A lot of people dismiss the Pats yards given up as irrelevant as long as they're not giving up points, but yards given up tend to translate into poor field position for the offense.  So, again, complementary football works both ways . . . 

    [QUOTE]Whether BB chose to run less because of lack of talent amongst his runningbacks or possibly their health last season (and previous year's) is unknown both to me and anyone else here, none of us are privy to a genuine injury report or Bill's innermost thoughts on the limitations of his backs... even those who post their opinion as if it is fact.  [QUOTE]

    Agree . . . but BB letting BJGE walk for a modest contract with the Bengals suggests something. 


    [QUOTE]But I know that Josh McDaniel's is the last coordinator who provided some semblance of balance to our offense and we now possess a stable of young, athletic, workhorse backs that can catch out of the backfield so there should be no excuses this year.  I have high hopes for the offense this year that they will be more than a finesse team that only produces in the regular season and can overwhelm superior playoff caliber defenses to impose their will.
    Posted by wozzy[/QUOTE]

    I'd love to see a better running game too.  Dillon was one of my favorite players. I'd love to see someone who could stiff arm like him again.  I also think BB will play that kind of game again . . . as long as he has the horses.  One thing about BB I don't believe is that he's biased toward any strategy except the one that is most likely to win with the team he has.  If he's got good runners, he'll run. If not, he'll do something else. 





     
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    Re: Good Running Game Overrated?

    In Response to Re: Good Running Game Overrated?:
    [QUOTE]if you cant run "when you have to" you have a serious weakness. Posted by bredbru[/QUOTE]

    I think this is the key to success, running in the 4th qtr with a lead . Wasn't his name Corey "clock killin" Dillon. I actually think Antwoin Smith was somewhat up to that task.When Pats had a lead under 6 minutes it was almost a lock , 2 first downs , opponents using all 3 TOs  and under 2 minutes left.

    even if opponents did score late. Fauria would pounce on the offside kick and game over.
     
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    Re: Good Running Game Overrated?

    In Response to Re: Good Running Game Overrated?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Good Running Game Overrated? : I think this is the key to success, running in the 4th qtr with a lead . Wasn't his name Corey "clock killin" Dillon. I actually think Antwoin Smith was somewhat up to that task.When Pats had a lead under 6 minutes it was almost a lock , 2 first downs , opponents using all 3 TOs  and under 2 minutes left. even if opponents did score late. Fauria would pounce on the offside kick and game over.
    Posted by mgraham[/QUOTE]

    Ah fond memories...
     
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    Re: Good Running Game Overrated?

    In Response to Re: Good Running Game Overrated?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Good Running Game Overrated? : Parcells constantly faught with Bledsoe to run the plays that were called? I can't remember that ever happening. I remeber Parcells ripping Bledsoe because he couldn't look off a safety or would latch on to one guy when there would be a wide open guy somewhere else...result...incopletion or pick. I don't remeber him audibling out of a run play - Parcells would of tore his arms off for that.
    Posted by mthurl[/QUOTE]


    wozzydoo just makes this chit up as he goes. He really does make Rusty look like a genius.

     
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    Re: Good Running Game Overrated?

    In response to "Re: Good Running Game Overrated?":  It extends drives, converts first downs, allows your defense to sit and watch the offense wear down the opposing defense.
    Posted by wozzy



    So, you're saying passing can't do those things wozzydoo?



    In my world of machinery one thing is true... if you lose control of something you are gambling trying to package it, or paint it, or do most anything with it. So to relate this to football passing is taking more risk then running the ball. You throw the ball. When you do this you have to depend on blocking, a receiver running the right route, the QB throwing a catchable pass and the defender being behind a step.
    You run it you depend on the line blocking and the exchange being clean. You put Steven Jackson on this team and see what happens. We invest a lot of coin in the O line. Whether it be draft picks, FA or trades... we have a good O line. This line could block for any RB. If the Pats don't commit to it then we'll never run it. throw in a couple good blocking TE's and you have 7 guys blocking for a running play. Gosh what else do you need. Then let Brady play action and all the talk will be about the D.
     
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    Re: Good Running Game Overrated?

    In Response to Re: Good Running Game Overrated?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Good Running Game Overrated? :      Yes. Passing now sets up the run, wheras in years past, it was the other way around. Too many teams are playing a 3-4, which is a more difficult defense to run against. Joseph Addai made a career in Indy picking up the scraps left from Peyton Manning's torrid passing attack.  
    Posted by TexasPat[/QUOTE]

    I'm not sure if this is true.  If a team is going spread offense with nobody in the backfield, it's not hard to figure out what the offense is trying to do. With play action, if executed properly and called at the right time - the opponent does not know if a team is passing or running.
     
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    Re: Good Running Game Overrated?

    In Response to Re: Good Running Game Overrated?:
    [QUOTE]In response to "Re: Good Running Game Overrated?":  It extends drives, converts first downs, allows your defense to sit and watch the offense wear down the opposing defense. Posted by wozzy So, you're saying passing can't do those things wozzydoo? In my world of machinery one thing is true... if you lose control of something you are gambling trying to package it, or paint it, or do most anything with it. So to relate this to football passing is taking more risk then running the ball. You throw the ball. When you do this you have to depend on blocking, a receiver running the right route, the QB throwing a catchable pass and the defender being behind a step. You run it you depend on the line blocking and the exchange being clean. You put Steven Jackson on this team and see what happens. We invest a lot of coin in the O line. Whether it be draft picks, FA or trades... we have a good O line. This line could block for any RB. If the Pats don't commit to it then we'll never run it. throw in a couple good blocking TE's and you have 7 guys blocking for a running play. Gosh what else do you need. Then let Brady play action and all the talk will be about the D.
    Posted by Philskiw1[/QUOTE]

    IMO, the OL is pretty good with protecting Brady. Not so sure about the blocking for the running game tho. I'm hoping that guys like Seabass, Solder, and Cannon change that THIS year with the addition of Fells stepping up as a blocking TE so that Gronk can be on the field as an option for receiving the ball.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Good Running Game Overrated?

    In Response to Re: Good Running Game Overrated?:
    [QUOTE]In response to "Re: Good Running Game Overrated?":  It extends drives, converts first downs, allows your defense to sit and watch the offense wear down the opposing defense. Posted by wozzy So, you're saying passing can't do those things wozzydoo? In my world of machinery one thing is true... if you lose control of something you are gambling trying to package it, or paint it, or do most anything with it. So to relate this to football passing is taking more risk then running the ball. You throw the ball. When you do this you have to depend on blocking, a receiver running the right route, the QB throwing a catchable pass and the defender being behind a step. You run it you depend on the line blocking and the exchange being clean. You put Steven Jackson on this team and see what happens. We invest a lot of coin in the O line. Whether it be draft picks, FA or trades... we have a good O line. This line could block for any RB. If the Pats don't commit to it then we'll never run it. throw in a couple good blocking TE's and you have 7 guys blocking for a running play. Gosh what else do you need. Then let Brady play action and all the talk will be about the D.
    Posted by Philskiw1[/QUOTE]

    The facts are: an average NFL team

    Gained 4.3 yards per rushing attempt.

    Gained 6.3 (net) yards per passing attempt.

    Lost fumbles 2.2% of the time.

    Had passes intercepted 2.9% of the time.


    In the face of that, what NFL coach would think it's a good idea to run more than normal if they have an outstanding QB and a run of the mill RB?

    BB's team ran the NFL average number of times per game; ~ 27. They had 4 more plays per game than the NFL average. That's also the number of times per game they passed more than an average NFL team; 4.

    So, we are actually talking about 4 plays a game here with this endless diatribe about running balance.

    If we ran twice more a game would you and do you think the incessant gripers about this would be satiated? Or, do you think we should run more than the NFL norm?

    I can just imagine the look BB would give you if you actually questioned him about his run balance. We've seen it before. It ain't pretty.
     
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