Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense!

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    [QUOTE]I'll take the cue from dogg and look at the "big picture".... BB knows what he wants to put together for a defense this year.  It is safe to say the Pats have had a drastic turnover in defensive personnel from the '07 season, going with more youth and more role players.  Unless someone here can get a one on one with BB and ask a bunch of questions, all we can do is guess and come up with our thoughts as to what he is trying to do.  Are we frustrated that "we" do not see a dominant defense on the field every game, laying hard hits on everyone?  Yes, we are, hence this string about the D.  But, BB has said many times, the players he has on the team are the players he thinks can do the job and win the SB.  I do not think BB is striving to put together a team that is only" just good enough".  The biggest challenge he has had, and it seems to happen every year, is the Pats seem to be one of the most injury prone teams in the league.  He is constantly juggling the pieces around.  Now, he has Mayo out for 6 - 8 weeks, a key element to his D plans and now, once again, he has to re-configure due to an injury to a key player!   Can we imagine a Pats team that can stay mostly healthy ALL year long?  That would be nice!
    Posted by agcsbill[/QUOTE]

    A yahoo columnist wrote (IMO) an astute article that while it seems Belichick always knows what he wants to do, this year it appears to be the opposite because of personnel questions. He is still trying to figure out in what scheme the players will work best.  

    I will say that over the past 2-3 years the pats injuries have mounted up and I do believe there is a real valid correlation between playoff success and team health. 

    That said, the pats also used to be a plug and play team.  Are they as deep as they used to be?  I don't know.  There may be a greater drop off at 2nd string then there has been in the past. 

    But losing only Mayo to injury should not drastically affect the team.  Other than Brady, I don't think one single loss should impact the team.  The colts have been successful in the reg season without sanders, and they don't have him now.  Pats should be fine without Mayo.
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense! : I'll ask the question again.  Didn't the bills trade away their probowl LT?  If so, it might be easier to rush the passer.  Are the bills expected to be a playoff team - not by anyone's projection.  You stated earlier that sacks, passes defensed, and ints were low rankings while the points against was one of the best in the league when your team won superbowls.  Thus, by your arguement sacks don't matter (although I think they do).  That said, even with more sacks last Monday the pats needed a stupid play by the opposition to have a chance to win at home against a non-playoff team while your team is projected as one of the top 2 in the entire league.  Take the win, but I think there is good reason for concern with regard to your defense. 
    Posted by underdogg[/QUOTE]

    Did the Pats play teams that didn't make the playoffs during the SB years?

    Buffalo's LT is the one that kept all of the players from sacking the QB in the past?  Didn't the Colts lose their All star LT and still play pretty well?

    My arguement is that sacks matter, I am not sure where you get that from?  You are going around in circles....

    The defense played fine.....nothing to worry about.

    You must be a bit nervous about your D....you barely beat a team that is not supposed to make the playoffs.....
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense! : Last I checked Stokley was a pretty good receiver.
    Posted by m1020us[/QUOTE]

    I would agree with you. But apparently the Ravens did not see him that way.  They drafted him in the 4th but let him go without trying to resign him, so the colts picked him up because Manning knew him from Louisiana.  Stokely never caught more than 24 balls for the Ravens.  This is not at all different than Wes Welker for the Pats.  Brady made Welker a household name.  Manning did the same for Welker. 

    Now props go to these WR's for their work ethic and talent, but sometimes it takes the QB to make the WR special.  If we knew nothing about Terrell Owens, would we have thought he was anyone of note after the first game.  My sense is that with the worst QB he's played for in his career, the only thing that will keep TO in the headlines is his mouth.

    The point - Peyton Manning developed his receivers and the colts chose not to let them go.  Its possible that the pats could have had the same thing with their receivers but they chose a different path. 

    Everyone wants to credit the colts receivers but a lot of credit needs to go to the team and the qb for developing the talent.  I posted earlier all of the high draft pick WR's (1st 3 rds) that both Manning and Brady have thrown to.  You'd be surprised how many of them Brady had.  I'll find the post and repost it here.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense! : This the "Don't give up the big play" defense that I was referring to earlier. We have had the personnel for this defense the past few years but they could not stay healthy. The only area that was questionable was corner. Belichick coaches and makes personnel decisions to win now always yet stays competitive in future years by proper planning and knowing when to cut a guy loose. This is why we are the team of the free agency era, this is why we have won 3 superbowls and this is why our young athletic defense can be good enough to win a superbowl this year. Once again underdogg you try and seem like you are having an insightful discussion until a turd sandwich of a statement like" Belichick is playing a win later not now game." comes out of your mouth. Get Serious!
    Posted by TrueChamp[/QUOTE]

    True champ - I was with you the whole way until the turd sandwich thing.

    Sometimes I needle, but this wasn't one.  Trading Seymour for a pick 2 yrs from now does not help the pats now.  You can slice that Turd sandwich any way you want but it is still not going to make my statement false.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

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    In Response to Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense!:
    [QUOTE]I can die now. "Gruntled" and "tetragon" in the same post.
    Posted by prairiemike[/QUOTE]

    Now if you can just mix in a tautological or two and sprinkle it with a sophistry, you'd have nirvana (hey another word - woo hoo).  And no not the Kurt Cobain kind although for some maybe. 
     
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    Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense!

    The DL doesn't need any help right now. 
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense! : Actually it was the pats 01 team that went to the superbowl.  They were 24th in yds against but 6th in pts against.  So the pats held teams to low scores all year.  And it actually proves my point.  Its personnel/players that win the games.  Without Sanders there was no way we were getting to the SB.  Like I have said earlier in this thread, the pats don't have the defensive players to do it this year and they just traded away possibly their best defensive player for a draft pick 2 years into the future.  Belichick is playing a win later not now game. 
    Posted by underdogg[/QUOTE]

    So why has the Colts D been not so good since with the same play makers on it then? Up until this season it was Dungy's D. And Yes I know it was the 01 season but what year did they make that run in......oh yeah it was 02
     
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    Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense!

    Even back in 2007 there were a number of games we played against 2nd string QB's (I specifically remember Feely w/ the Eagles) and they picked us apart!  Luckily we outscored them, but even the 2nd string QB's ate our defense up because we couldn't get to the QB! 


    Look, I know the Pats have been the model for NFL success for the last 9 years and it's hard to argue against them.  I see what I see and to me, the Pats need to be able to disrupt the QB more than we do.

    I pray that I'm wrong but I'm not feeling confident today.  The Jets are going to come after Brady like the Giants did in the superbowl.  I hope we adjust better this week than we did on that superbowl Sunday.  While the Jets offense isn't considered "explosive", Leon Washington is going to have a field day setting Guyton up on screens. 

    Hey, I thought BB was absolutely CRAZY to start Cassel last year over O'Connell.  I was wrong and admitted it.  I'll admit I'm wrong again if they prove to me they are a solid defensive unit. 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from m1020us. Show m1020us's posts

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    [QUOTE]Even back in 2007 there were a number of games we played against 2nd string QB's (I specifically remember Feely w/ the Eagles) and they picked us apart!  Luckily we outscored them, but even the 2nd string QB's ate our defense up because we couldn't get to the QB!  Look, I know the Pats have been the model for NFL success for the last 9 years and it's hard to argue against them.  I see what I see and to me, the Pats need to be able to disrupt the QB more than we do. I pray that I'm wrong but I'm not feeling confident today.  The Jets are going to come after Brady like the Giants did in the superbowl.  I hope we adjust better this week than we did on that superbowl Sunday.  While the Jets offense isn't considered "explosive", Leon Washington is going to have a field day setting Guyton up on screens.  Hey, I thought BB was absolutely CRAZY to start Cassel last year over O'Connell.  I was wrong and admitted it.  I'll admit I'm wrong again if they prove to me they are a solid defensive unit. 
    Posted by deluxbury[/QUOTE]

    I am not sure that you are looking at the Pats......I watched the first game and the D played pretty solid....much like the D of past......

    You might want to get your eyes checked.....If we continue to play this same way and only give up 17 PPG......that usually leads the league....
     
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    Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense!

    Well I liked that fact they at least shut down Buffalo at the end,  believe me, I wasn't confident.....

    Not a big fan of the Pee's era, I have always thought the D was much better on
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense! : So why has the Colts D been not so good since with the same play makers on it then? Up until this season it was Dungy's D. And Yes I know it was the 01 season but what year did they make that run in......oh yeah it was 02
    Posted by Tnutts[/QUOTE]

    Not sure I understand your post, but I will try. 

    The colts really haven't had many playmakers on defense in all of the dungy years.  The only 2 now are Freeney and Sanders.  In 5 full seasons - Sanders has played in 56% of the games.  He missed 12 in 06 only to come back in the playoffs to help the colts win.  He missed 10 in 08.  Freeney has been healthy but missed 7 games in 07 with a foot injury.  

    During the Dungy years, the colts focused on offense more than defense.  They have never held on to good LB's losing Washington, Peterson, and June (overrated but a probowler) and have never had a strong interior d line.  I think they may be their best in years this year. 

    As for the pats - yes it was their 02 playoff run (01 reg season) but their ranking (24th?) was yds against.  Their actual pts against ranking was 6.  Dominating in the red zone.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from MVPkilla. Show MVPkilla's posts

    Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense!

    Underdogg whos fault is that? You say we only had two all stars on D in Sanders and Freeney and again whos fault is that? Dungy was a defensive coach who had control of the draft and got to hand pick his D year in and year out. Maybe if you had fired your POS head coach a few years ago and gotten yourself a real defensive coach then maybe your D would have been better but dont sit here and cry about your D when I know for a fact that you are a Dungy supporter.
     
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    Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense!

    BB is trying to overhaul a defense and still remain competitive.  Last year these blogs complained about the age of our defense.  I like the new defense.  Younger, stronger, faster, and more athletic.  How can you judge them on one game?  I thought they looked good until the D line got winded late in the game. (would like to see them develope someone to spell VW at nose tackle)

    By the end of the season, this should be one of the better defenses in the NFL.  And yes you will see more exotic defenses because, unlike the past couple of years, this team has some real athletes that can do multiple things on defense. 
     
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    Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense!

    In Response to Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense! : I am not sure that you are looking at the Pats......I watched the first game and the D played pretty solid....much like the D of past...... You might want to get your eyes checked.....If we continue to play this same way and only give up 17 PPG......that usually leads the league....
    Posted by m1020us[/QUOTE]

    I'm watching the same games you're watching and over the last few years, I see the Pats make average QB's look like the next coming of Joe Montana. 

    Remember what we used to do to Peyton Manning back in the day?  We were in his face constantly without selling out the defense on a big play.  We were able to create confusion and made even the best QB's in the league look bad.

    Nowadays, average QB's look great!  You can go back the last several years and it's been the same thing. I don't care about what stats you feed me.  2007 we were one of the highest rated defenses in the league but we were always up by 50 points so the defensive stats are misleading. 

    Bottom line is, if our defense is unable to stop teams on 3rd down AGAIN this year, we're toast.  3rd down is a when you need to create havoc with a QB and we haven't been able to do that on a consistant basis in quite some time.  I'll give you three of the biggest plays over the last few years:

    1. Eli's throw to Tyree.  We were unable to close the deal with the sacking of Eli. If we do, game is pretty much over and unbreakable history is made!
    2. 2006 AFC Championship.  We couldn't stop the Colts on 3rd down, Colts make huge comeback and go off to win the superbowl - DESPITE our huge halftime lead!
    3. Last year, Favre's third down conversion to Keller.  We stop that play and we would have been in the playoffs. 

    If we had a real pass rusher who could get to the F'n QB, we would have at least 2 more SB rings! 

    YES I'M SPOILED!!


     
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    Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense!

    In Response to Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense!:
    [QUOTE]Underdogg whos fault is that? You say we only had two all stars on D in Sanders and Freeney and again whos fault is that? Dungy was a defensive coach who had control of the draft and got to hand pick his D year in and year out. Maybe if you had fired your POS head coach a few years ago and gotten yourself a real defensive coach then maybe your D would have been better but dont sit here and cry about your D when I know for a fact that you are a Dungy supporter.
    Posted by MVPkilla[/QUOTE]

    It is completely the colts front office and coaching staffs fault.  We picked our personnel poison and (IMO) it was the wrong one.  There should have been more balance.  

    There actually was a purpose to it, and it worked, but I think it kept us from at least one superbowl because of it.  But times they are a changin. 

    But enough with the POS thing re: Dungy.  With the personnel on defense that he had, the colts were good enough on D (like the pats this year), but not good enough to win it all. 

    When Dungy is in the hall of fame, you'll look like an a*s for your perspective.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense!

    In Response to Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense! : True champ - I was with you the whole way until the turd sandwich thing. Sometimes I needle, but this wasn't one.  Trading Seymour for a pick 2 yrs from now does not help the pats now.  You can slice that Turd sandwich any way you want but it is still not going to make my statement false.
    Posted by underdogg[/QUOTE]

    Your statement is 100% false if you are in fact saying BB has decided that his team which was minutes away from the superbowl in 06 and minutes away from winning another superbowl in 07 is now in a rebuilding year and does not think he can win a championship this year. I suspect that your statement is just to get a rise and you do not believe.. actually cannot believe that for 1 second. Yes the trade was great for future growth but BB does not make that trade unless he  believes he already has a player who can perform "close" to the same level as Seymour. Remember Seymour was not a Dwight Freeney type he was more of a gap filling run stuffer who was so powerful he still got to the QB. By sticking in Brace and Pryor we get some run stoppage and with Green and Burgess we still have the pass rush. I will miss seymour but I believe BB made that trade for a reason and looking at his track record there is little reason to believe otherwise.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense!

    In Response to Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense!:
    [QUOTE]Even back in 2007 there were a number of games we played against 2nd string QB's (I specifically remember Feely w/ the Eagles) and they picked us apart!  Luckily we outscored them, but even the 2nd string QB's ate our defense up because we couldn't get to the QB!  Look, I know the Pats have been the model for NFL success for the last 9 years and it's hard to argue against them.  I see what I see and to me, the Pats need to be able to disrupt the QB more than we do. I pray that I'm wrong but I'm not feeling confident today.  The Jets are going to come after Brady like the Giants did in the superbowl.  I hope we adjust better this week than we did on that superbowl Sunday.  While the Jets offense isn't considered "explosive", Leon Washington is going to have a field day setting Guyton up on screens.  Hey, I thought BB was absolutely CRAZY to start Cassel last year over O'Connell.  I was wrong and admitted it.  I'll admit I'm wrong again if they prove to me they are a solid defensive unit. 
    Posted by deluxbury[/QUOTE]

    The defenses of the teams you are referring to were more then capable. It was not BB's defensive game plan it was the fact that the players were older and therefore more subject to injuries which happened to a lot of key players. The defense now is younger and more athletic then it has been in the past 4 years. This is a fact. Now we will see how capable this defense is of learning how to limit mistakes. I believe with Belichick as the teacher they will do very well this year. maybe not top 10 defense right away(although maybe) but they will learn as the year goes and grow together for the playoffs!
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense!

    As for the pats - yes it was their 02 playoff run (01 reg season) but their ranking (24th?) was yds against.  Their actual pts against ranking was 6.  Dominating in the red zone.

    Underdogg this is the classic bend but don't break. In a way we control time of possession by protecting the lead. We did this by having our corners play 5-10 yards off the wrs and keeping passes inside of 5-6 yards. Then we put the clamps on in the redzone. The 24th defensive ranking was deceptive. I'm not sure what this argument was about but I figured I would jump in for the heck of it.
     
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    Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense!

    In Response to Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense! : I'm watching the same games you're watching and over the last few years, I see the Pats make average QB's look like the next coming of Joe Montana.  Remember what we used to do to Peyton Manning back in the day?  We were in his face constantly without selling out the defense on a big play.  We were able to create confusion and made even the best QB's in the league look bad. Nowadays, average QB's look great!  You can go back the last several years and it's been the same thing. I don't care about what stats you feed me.  2007 we were one of the highest rated defenses in the league but we were always up by 50 points so the defensive stats are misleading.  Bottom line is, if our defense is unable to stop teams on 3rd down AGAIN this year, we're toast.  3rd down is a when you need to create havoc with a QB and we haven't been able to do that on a consistant basis in quite some time.  I'll give you three of the biggest plays over the last few years: 1. Eli's throw to Tyree.  We were unable to close the deal with the sacking of Eli. If we do, game is pretty much over and unbreakable history is made! 2. 2006 AFC Championship.  We couldn't stop the Colts on 3rd down, Colts make huge comeback and go off to win the superbowl - DESPITE our huge halftime lead! 3. Last year, Favre's third down conversion to Keller.  We stop that play and we would have been in the playoffs.  If we had a real pass rusher who could get to the F'n QB, we would have at least 2 more SB rings!  YES I'M SPOILED!!
    Posted by deluxbury[/QUOTE]

    So you think that Edwards looked like a GREAT QB last game?  You are complaining about this year, then 2 years ago....I am starting to get confused.....this isn't the same D as 2 years ago and they Pats played very well on D in the last game.  There is no basis for your arguement.

    And I understand that you don't like seeing stats that make you look bad and you can't refute.....but you are way off base here.....or you are not a Pats fan?

    Yeah, if you were a real Pats fan, then you would realize the answer to this (If we had a real pass rusher who could get to the F'n QB, we would have at least 2 more SB rings!) is called injuries.
     
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    Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense!

    In Response to Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense! : It is completely the colts front office and coaching staffs fault.  We picked our personnel poison and (IMO) it was the wrong one.  There should have been more balance.   There actually was a purpose to it, and it worked, but I think it kept us from at least one superbowl because of it.  But times they are a changin.  But enough with the POS thing re: Dungy.  With the personnel on defense that he had, the colts were good enough on D (like the pats this year), but not good enough to win it all.  When Dungy is in the hall of fame, you'll look like an a*s for your perspective.
    Posted by underdogg[/QUOTE]

    And yet, the Pats D is better than the Colts this year......that does not bode well for you guys....
     
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    Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense!

    In Response to Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense!:
    [QUOTE]As for the pats - yes it was their 02 playoff run (01 reg season) but their ranking (24th?) was yds against.  Their actual pts against ranking was 6.  Dominating in the red zone. Underdogg this is the classic bend but don't break. In a way we control time of possession by protecting the lead. We did this by having our corners play 5-10 yards off the wrs and keeping passes inside of 5-6 yards. Then we put the clamps on in the redzone. The 24th defensive ranking was deceptive. I'm not sure what this argument was about but I figured I would jump in for the heck of it.
    Posted by TrueChamp[/QUOTE]


    What people don't understand is that the Bend-don't-break method is another way of winding the clock down.....
     
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    Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense!

    In Response to Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense! : So you think that Edwards looked like a GREAT QB last game?  You are complaining about this year, then 2 years ago....I am starting to get confused.....this isn't the same D as 2 years ago and they Pats played very well on D in the last game.  There is no basis for your arguement. And I understand that you don't like seeing stats that make you look bad and you can't refute.....but you are way off base here.....or you are not a Pats fan? Yeah, if you were a real Pats fan, then you would realize the answer to this (If we had a real pass rusher who could get to the F'n QB, we would have at least 2 more SB rings!) is called injuries .
    Posted by m1020us[/QUOTE]

    Trent Edwards is an average QB at best and yes, I think the Pats made him look very good on Monday night. 

    I am as big a Pats fan as anyone but unlike yourself, I can think objectively when their play calls for it. 

    I pointed out three key decisive moments in recent Patriot games that if we had a true effective pass rush would have won us the game and more superbowls.  That's how close we are to having more rings! 

    The reality is, with the exception of Mayo, BB has been stubborn with his acquiring LB's.  We always hear, "this LB doesn't fit the 3/4 model so BB doesn't want him".  Roosevelt Colvin was in an attack style 4-3 in Chicago and he fit! 

    Bottom line is, we have no LB depth and god forbid Adalius, Woods, or Guyton goes down this week! 
     
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    Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense!

    In Response to Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense! : Your statement is 100% false if you are in fact saying BB has decided that his team which was minutes away from the superbowl in 06 and minutes away from winning another superbowl in 07 is now in a rebuilding year and does not think he can win a championship this year. I suspect that your statement is just to get a rise and you do not believe.. actually cannot believe that for 1 second. Yes the trade was great for future growth but BB does not make that trade unless he  believes he already has a player who can perform "close" to the same level as Seymour. Remember Seymour was not a Dwight Freeney type he was more of a gap filling run stuffer who was so powerful he still got to the QB. By sticking in Brace and Pryor we get some run stoppage and with Green and Burgess we still have the pass rush. I will miss seymour but I believe BB made that trade for a reason and looking at his track record there is little reason to believe otherwise.
    Posted by TrueChamp[/QUOTE]
    TrueChamp, you are a true fan and have good reason for your opinion.  I honestly see it differently, and the only way we are going to find out is to let this season play out.
     
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    Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense!

    In Response to Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense! : And yet, the Pats D is better than the Colts this year......that does not bode well for you guys....
    Posted by m1020us[/QUOTE]

    We'll get the opportunity to find out won't we?  I don't think they are.  I don't think they have been for 3 years.
     
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    Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense!

    In Response to Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Groiwing tired of Patriot Defense! : What people don't understand is that the Bend-don't-break method is another way of winding the clock down.....
    Posted by m1020us[/QUOTE]
    I understand it very well.  The Dungy 2 (tampa 2) is also a bend don't break system.  However, for the colts it did not work very well until they had solid players in place.  For the last couple of years they have been better.  Their biggest flaw on defense was their run d primarily due some very bad luck on their interior d line as well as the frequent injuries to Sanders.
     
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