Hall's Re-Signing - Impact on Talib?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Hall's Re-Signing - Impact on Talib?

    In response to Muzwell's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    So, let's say they can sign any two of the following four, who do you want, if these are the only choices?

    Talib

    Edelman

    Arthur Jones

    Donte Whitner

    Whichever of these guys they don't sign,that means they have to fill that spot with a cheaper option (FA or draft) or in-house.

    I'm picking Jones and Talib, putting my reservations aside concerning Talib's durability, or lack thereof. I just think they can get by at S and WR easier than they can at DT or CB, where depth is more critical.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Jones and Whitner

    Talib is good but what is half a season at 100% and missing in the playoffs really worth? Edelman, love the guy but as with Talib, Edelman has had 1 healthy season, that's 20%. If I had to put money into anywhere it would be on the D in positions of need for players that have shown to be more durable through their careers

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Hall's Re-Signing - Impact on Talib?

    In response to Uncle Rico's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Talib better not be greedy, he better be looking for a fair price taking into consideration that he was knocked out of a very important playoff game by smurf after spending more time on the trainers table again this past season.

    [/QUOTE]

    Well, I don't think he'll take a discount, at least not willingly. He'll get the most he possibly can from whichever team is willing to pay. He probably only stays with the Pats if it's like last year, limited interest from other teams and not many options.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from joepatsfan111111. Show joepatsfan111111's posts

    Re: Hall's Re-Signing - Impact on Talib?

    In response to TripleOG's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    PAY DA MAN!

    [/QUOTE]

    I'm on this boat. 

    I don't care the injury issue, whatever. No Talib at all puts our defense back a ton. 

    With Talib and a healthy D we can have a top 5 D. W/o him, top 25 maybe 15. 

    Id give him up to 8 a year. No doubt

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Hall's Re-Signing - Impact on Talib?

    In response to PatsEng's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Muzwell's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    So, let's say they can sign any two of the following four, who do you want, if these are the only choices?

    Talib

    Edelman

    Arthur Jones

    Donte Whitner

    Whichever of these guys they don't sign,that means they have to fill that spot with a cheaper option (FA or draft) or in-house.

    I'm picking Jones and Talib, putting my reservations aside concerning Talib's durability, or lack thereof. I just think they can get by at S and WR easier than they can at DT or CB, where depth is more critical.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Jones and Whitner

    Talib is good but what is half a season at 100% and missing in the playoffs really worth? Edelman, love the guy but as with Talib, Edelman has had 1 healthy season, that's 20%. If I had to put money into anywhere it would be on the D in positions of need for players that have shown to be more durable through their careers

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree on Talib, it's a bit of a dilemma with him. Vital player, frequently MIA. The Gronk of the defense. I just look at CB as S by a healthy margin, in terms of importance.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Hall's Re-Signing - Impact on Talib?

    In response to Muzwell's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    I agree on Talib, it's a bit of a dilemma with him. Vital player, frequently MIA. The Gronk of the defense. I just look at CB as S by a healthy margin, in terms of importance.

    [/QUOTE]

    I do too, but I think with Jones and a high draft pick on DT they might be able to generate a pass rush enough that Ryan and Dennard could be good starting CB's, and picking up an extra low cost vet that can spot start if need be would be enough. However, on S I don't see that many good S's in this years draft as opposed to some other years and Whitner is the type of hard hitting safety we have been missing next to McCourty. Adding a SS McCourty doesn't need to worry about covering for should also greatly improve the D. Averaged over the course of a full season maybe as much as Talib would help (provided Talib has another average year of half 100%, half not himself/MIA, and missing in the playoffs)

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from 49Patriots. Show 49Patriots's posts

    Re: Hall's Re-Signing - Impact on Talib?

    Wouldn't lose much sleep if he left, his talents are wasted when, in every AFC championship game, he's on the bench.

     
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  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnHannahrulz. Show JohnHannahrulz's posts

    Re: Hall's Re-Signing - Impact on Talib?

    Wait for cuts and restructures and see how much is available. My guess is Talib is offered 7-8m per season. If he wants more BB will let him walk. Could be we see Ryan, Dennard with Arrington in the slot.  Pats could draft SS. Could also spread or backload Talib's contract by adding years. Injury prone.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Hall's Re-Signing - Impact on Talib?

    In response to PatsEng's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Muzwell's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    So, let's say they can sign any two of the following four, who do you want, if these are the only choices?

    Talib

    Edelman

    Arthur Jones

    Donte Whitner

    Whichever of these guys they don't sign,that means they have to fill that spot with a cheaper option (FA or draft) or in-house.

    I'm picking Jones and Talib, putting my reservations aside concerning Talib's durability, or lack thereof. I just think they can get by at S and WR easier than they can at DT or CB, where depth is more critical.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Jones and Whitner

    Talib is good but what is half a season at 100% and missing in the playoffs really worth? Edelman, love the guy but as with Talib, Edelman has had 1 healthy season, that's 20%. If I had to put money into anywhere it would be on the D in positions of need for players that have shown to be more durable through their careers

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree with Eng. I would take Jones to shore up D Line Depth, and a hard hitting safety. I think Dennard, Ryan and Arrington are a good 1-3 CB's and draft or sign another for competition at any of those spots.

    I think Edelman like Woodhead and Welker is a good hard nose football player but is a product of the system and being the recipient of the majority of Brady's targets. Throw 140 balls to Amendola, Boyce or Dobson instead. 

     
  10. This post has been removed.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: Hall's Re-Signing - Impact on Talib?

    In response to Muzwell's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    So, let's say they can sign any two of the following four, who do you want, if these are the only choices?

    Talib

    Edelman

    Arthur Jones

    Donte Whitner

    Whichever of these guys they don't sign,that means they have to fill that spot with a cheaper option (FA or draft) or in-house.

    I'm picking Jones and Talib, putting my reservations aside concerning Talib's durability, or lack thereof. I just think they can get by at S and WR easier than they can at DT or CB, where depth is more critical.  

    [/QUOTE]


    That would be a very tough choice.

    I am going to hope Amendola can come around this season so with that said I will take Talib and Whitner.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Hall's Re-Signing - Impact on Talib?

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

     

    I agree with Eng. I would take Jones to shore up D Line Depth, and a hard hitting safety. I think Dennard, Ryan and Arrington are a good 1-3 CB's and draft or sign another for competition at any of those spots.

    I think Edelman like Woodhead and Welker is a good hard nose football player but is a product of the system and being the recipient of the majority of Brady's targets. Throw 140 balls to Amendola, Boyce or Dobson instead. 



    You know if they want an extra vet to go into the CB's but might not cost a ton Tillman's worth a look. Should be fairly reasonable, will give you good rotational reps, and should last a full season. With an improved DL and pass rush I think this CB core could do well but adding a knowledgable vet like Tillman would help. Now I know you might kill me for wanting Tillman and not A. Wilson but hear me out. Tillman has been durable through career up until this last injury and it's one he should have an easier time coming back from (arm injury not leg related). I've seen a more gradual drop off with him, as opposed to the sudden drop with A. Wilson, and he'd be a #2/3 CB in a rotation so you wouldn't have to count on him every down because you have Ryan and Dennard as opposed to what many believed A. Wilson was going to be a full time starter and instead had to go back to the guy he was suppose to replace.

    Or even a Corey Graham from Balt. He's a good spot starter type, very durable, and is still a bit young at 28. Might be a good rotational guy too

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from joepatsfan111111. Show joepatsfan111111's posts

    Re: Hall's Re-Signing - Impact on Talib?

    In response to Muzwell's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    So, let's say they can sign any two of the following four, who do you want, if these are the only choices?

    Talib

    Edelman

    Arthur Jones

    Donte Whitner

    Whichever of these guys they don't sign,that means they have to fill that spot with a cheaper option (FA or draft) or in-house.

    I'm picking Jones and Talib, putting my reservations aside concerning Talib's durability, or lack thereof. I just think they can get by at S and WR easier than they can at DT or CB, where depth is more critical.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Talib and Whitner. not a strong draft for S and its a glaring hole.

    remember we have Buchanon this year for pass rush and DE is deeper than S in the draft this year so I'd take a look at it there

     

    if we get Talib and Whitner and the D stays healthy it could be top 5

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Hall's Re-Signing - Impact on Talib?

    In response to PatsEng's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    I agree with Eng. I would take Jones to shore up D Line Depth, and a hard hitting safety. I think Dennard, Ryan and Arrington are a good 1-3 CB's and draft or sign another for competition at any of those spots.

    I think Edelman like Woodhead and Welker is a good hard nose football player but is a product of the system and being the recipient of the majority of Brady's targets. Throw 140 balls to Amendola, Boyce or Dobson instead. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    You know if they want an extra vet to go into the CB's but might not cost a ton Tillman's worth a look. Should be fairly reasonable, will give you good rotational reps, and should last a full season. With an improved DL and pass rush I think this CB core could do well but adding a knowledgable vet like Tillman would help. Now I know you might kill me for wanting Tillman and not A. Wilson but hear me out. Tillman has been durable through career up until this last injury and it's one he should have an easier time coming back from (arm injury not leg related). I've seen a more gradual drop off with him, as opposed to the sudden drop with A. Wilson, and he'd be a #2/3 CB in a rotation so you wouldn't have to count on him every down because you have Ryan and Dennard as opposed to what many believed A. Wilson was going to be a full time starter and instead had to go back to the guy he was suppose to replace.

     

    Or even a Corey Graham from Balt. He's a good spot starter type, very durable, and is still a bit young at 28. Might be a good rotational guy too

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree about Tillman, he is worth a look as his career has been great. I would compre him to AW as nearly identical careers. 2 of the best at their positions for a decade! And wasnt Wilson extremely durable as well? Also why are you assuming Wilson was brought in to be a starter? He got rotational money and at 32 years old i think bB was going to use him as an in the box extra linebacker who could still stay with heavier TE's.

    I will say I watched quite a few bears games(FF implications) and Tillman did not look like the same guy with that injury. I think an Adrian Wilson contract would be perfect for Tillman. Get him to take a vet deal for a shot at a super bowl ring!

     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Hall's Re-Signing - Impact on Talib?

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    I agree about Tillman, he is worth a look as his career has been great. I would compre him to AW as nearly identical careers. 2 of the best at their positions for a decade! And wasnt Wilson extremely durable as well? Also why are you assuming Wilson was brought in to be a starter? He got rotational money and at 32 years old i think bB was going to use him as an in the box extra linebacker who could still stay with heavier TE's.

    I will say I watched quite a few bears games(FF implications) and Tillman did not look like the same guy with that injury. I think an Adrian Wilson contract would be perfect for Tillman. Get him to take a vet deal for a shot at a super bowl ring!

    [/QUOTE]

    The last couple of preseason games he was taking the primary reps as a starter and throughout camp was taking most of the 1st and 2nd squad reps. To me that points to him getting the starting nod if he was capable. He got rotational money because of age and also because there was clearly something wrong with him at the end half season of his Ari career. There was a drastic dropoff to the point he lost his starting position at the end of the season. No one was going to give him starting money and other then that Pats I don't think I heard a single team wanting to give him more than vet min, even Ari. So, it was just another case of BB getting a player for low change who once had high level starter upside and BB hoping he had a year or two left in the tank which clearly he didn't. Now, Tillman I didn't see the massive dropoff until the injury and triceps you can recover from even at his age (lower body is much harder to recover from). So, while I doubt Tillman will be at the level he was 3-4 years ago in a rotational role for a similar contract as A. Wilson got I would love that because of the nature of the injury as well as a more steady decline in ability as opposed to a sudden drop off. The main difference is I think a number of teams will be interested in Tillman (already hearing Tampa and Minn) and I don't think more than a couple were in A. Wilson so it gives me a bit more confidence the rest of the NFL world thinks Tillman has something left while they didn't think Wilson had anything

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: Hall's Re-Signing - Impact on Talib?


    The only caution I would add on Tillman based on past experience is different System, Different personell.

    Duane Starks, Detha O'Neal, Shawn Springs, Chad Scott to name a few. When BB went and got these guys there was some hope. The thing is they came from teams that atleast had some sort of pass rush. What i noticed is that once they got here, they Stunk!

    Why?  Well because we had no pass rush and had a system most defenses dont employ which is the bend but dont break. Outside of Forcing Fumbles, I dont see Tillman as any better than these guys at the time. Tillman is gonna look pretty bad when he comes here and has to cover for more than 5 seconds. Even Talib for all the props he gets here does have to hold quite a bit to be effective. He gets away with alot due to reputation of being shutdown but he holds a lot due to our non existence pass rush. So Idk about Tillman. He is a career Tampa 2 guy. Meaning he probably never played man and didnt have to cover downfield. Playing CB in Tampa 2, you have to Jam your Guy and release him and play the flat. We are a team that plays zone but not strictly so no I dont see him a good left. Lets learn from our mistakes. I want more Rushers. Seattle won because they added TWO more rushers last offseason in f/a AND drafted Irvin after already having a better pass rush than us. Think about that.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Hall's Re-Signing - Impact on Talib?

    In response to TripleOG's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    The only caution I would add on Tillman based on past experience is different System, Different personell.

    Duane Starks, Detha O'Neal, Shawn Springs, Chad Scott to name a few. When BB went and got these guys there was some hope. The thing is they came from teams that atleast had some sort of pass rush. What i noticed is that once they got here, they Stunk!

    Why?  Well because we had no pass rush and had a system most defenses dont employ which is the bend but dont break. Outside of Forcing Fumbles, I dont see Tillman as any better than these guys at the time. Tillman is gonna look pretty bad when he comes here and has to cover for more than 5 seconds. Even Talib for all the props he gets here does have to hold quite a bit to be effective. He gets away with alot due to reputation of being shutdown but he holds a lot due to our non existence pass rush. So Idk about Tillman. He is a career Tampa 2 guy. Meaning he probably never played man and didnt have to cover downfield. Playing CB in Tampa 2, you have to Jam your Guy and release him and play the flat. We are a team that plays zone but not strictly so no I dont see him a good left. Lets learn from our mistakes. I want more Rushers. Seattle won because they added TWO more rushers last offseason in f/a AND drafted Irvin after already having a better pass rush than us. Think about that.

    [/QUOTE]

    I hear you Triple but to me Tillman wouldn't be a main starter but more as the vet rotational guy that could play inside and outside (think what Arrington does) so there is less risk since you are counting on him to do less. 

    The thing is I'm guessing Tillman will get a 2yr deal or so about $1.5-2mil per year. Conservatively Talib is looking at a 3-4 with $4-6mil and some think he might get $6-8mil so at half -> a third the price that price difference could be the difference between signing an Jones or Whitner. I'd rather take the risk on a guy you might not have to rely on (because of Dennard and Ryan) and get an extra piece in an area of need than to spend it on a player who historically misses 2-6 games a year, is ineffective another 2-6 games (coming back from injury), and who hasn't been available in the post season. To me the greater risk is putting more money into that type of player then a smaller investment into a roational guy.

     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: Hall's Re-Signing - Impact on Talib?

    Just get us a pass rush. I will play CB.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from OneManArmy. Show OneManArmy's posts

    Re: Hall's Re-Signing - Impact on Talib?

    In response to TripleOG's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Just get us a pass rush. I will play CB.

    [/QUOTE]


    I will play safety

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Hall's Re-Signing - Impact on Talib?

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

    In response to TripleOG's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    The only caution I would add on Tillman based on past experience is different System, Different personell.

    Duane Starks, Detha O'Neal, Shawn Springs, Chad Scott to name a few. When BB went and got these guys there was some hope. The thing is they came from teams that atleast had some sort of pass rush. What i noticed is that once they got here, they Stunk!

    ....


    I hear you Triple but to me Tillman wouldn't be a main starter but more as the vet rotational guy that could play inside and outside (think what Arrington does) so there is less risk since you are counting on him to do less. 

    The thing is I'm guessing Tillman will get a 2yr deal or so about $1.5-2mil per year. Conservatively Talib is looking at a 3-4 with $4-6mil and some think he might get $6-8mil so at half -> a third the price that price difference could be the difference between signing an Jones or Whitner. ....

    To me the greater risk is putting more money into that type of player then a smaller investment into a roational guy.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Wonder if rather than a Tillman, they could bring back Samuel in this type of rotational/depth role? Depends on his mindset I suppose, does he still think of himself as a frontline starter. I don't see him getting paid that way any more. But with him, you would not have the system worries that Triple brings up. 

    Now, if he could just hold on to that damn ball...

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: Hall's Re-Signing - Impact on Talib?

    In response to Muzwell's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

     

    In response to TripleOG's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    The only caution I would add on Tillman based on past experience is different System, Different personell.

    Duane Starks, Detha O'Neal, Shawn Springs, Chad Scott to name a few. When BB went and got these guys there was some hope. The thing is they came from teams that atleast had some sort of pass rush. What i noticed is that once they got here, they Stunk!

    ....

     


    I hear you Triple but to me Tillman wouldn't be a main starter but more as the vet rotational guy that could play inside and outside (think what Arrington does) so there is less risk since you are counting on him to do less. 

    The thing is I'm guessing Tillman will get a 2yr deal or so about $1.5-2mil per year. Conservatively Talib is looking at a 3-4 with $4-6mil and some think he might get $6-8mil so at half -> a third the price that price difference could be the difference between signing an Jones or Whitner. ....

    To me the greater risk is putting more money into that type of player then a smaller investment into a roational guy.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Wonder if rather than a Tillman, they could bring back Samuel in this type of rotational/depth role? Depends on his mindset I suppose, does he still think of himself as a frontline starter. I don't see him getting paid that way any more. But with him, you would not have the system worries that Triple brings up. 

    Now, if he could just hold on to that damn ball...

    [/QUOTE]


    Well Asante had a great rookie year playing in the slot. He wouldnt have the issues of playing press outside and getting beat deep. IN the slot, he wouldnt defend too many deep routes and would likely be suitable and could move outside in a pinch but who is gonna tell BB to cut Arrington who is currently making 4 mill/yr to be THAT guy.

    We went thin last year when most were expected a couple CB signings. I wont get my hopes up again.

     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Hall's Re-Signing - Impact on Talib?

    In response to TripleOG's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     



    Well Asante had a great rookie year playing in the slot. He wouldnt have the issues of playing press outside and getting beat deep. IN the slot, he wouldnt defend too many deep routes and would likely be suitable and could move outside in a pinch but who is gonna tell BB to cut Arrington who is currently making 4 mill/yr to be THAT guy.

    We went thin last year when most were expected a couple CB signings. I wont get my hopes up again.

    [/QUOTE]

    Who says you have to cut Arrington? Arrington's a 4th CB no matter how you look at it so in that role he's a money slot guy (which should be his role to begin with). He'd still get reps similar to what he got at the end of the season and I might try to move him to a 3rd in the box S type. We know he's good against the run and coverage in short distance so why not play up to his strengths? That way you got your outside rotation, still have a guy you can count on inside too while Arrington still gets his reps inside at times and in the box at others. But, after this next season if he's still the same Arrington you can cut him to save cash not worth cutting him just for dead money this season though.

     
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