HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...
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Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...
posted at 7/28/2011 7:35 AM EDT
- futbal
- Posts: 2471
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Great move. 3-4 works optimally with a strong, strong, dominant line to tie up all 5 OLmen, which the Pats now have. Also speaks to BB's trust in Vince's leadership. -
Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...
posted at 7/28/2011 7:36 AM EDT
- zbellino
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In Response to Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...:In Response to Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND... : That's not entirely true Z. They play their 43 sub just less then 35% of the time. Most of the time they use variations on the 34 with OLB's putting their hands down towards the outside of the line. They are a base 34 who sometimes switch to 43 during 3rd mid to long downs. Just because they played sub packages more then 50% of the time doesn't mean they play the 43 it means they played something other then the strict 34 base (that doesn't include nickels, fireman's, dimes, 3 S packages which is something they used a lot last year. Strict 34 is 3 DL, 4LB, 2 CB, 2 S)
Posted by PatsEng
Yes, but in the vast majority of "subs" they play with a 43 front. Their nickel package has a 43 front, their quick sub, where Nink or Cunningham get down, is a 43 look, and for a 34 end like Al is a 43. And their 3 safety (big nickel) usually has a 43 look. The only sub-set NE doesn't come with four down most often is dime, which they are rarely, rarely in.
Among NFL 34 defenses, NE shows more 43 fronts than any team out there. Indeed, the number is close to 50%. -
Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...
posted at 7/28/2011 7:39 AM EDT
- Patsman2
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In Response to Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...:In Response to Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND... : Simply the best point made all week. If the Jets had signed Big Al, people would be clawing their eyes out here. Not one penny of his small salary is guaranteed. He has a low cap figure the next two seasons. Most of his issues last year had to do with Shanahan and not wanting to play in Washington. He could fit well here, and if he does look out. That is a superbowl caliber 34 front three. He is no less an issue than Corey Dillon was, or Moss, and more of an issue than Adalius Thomas was before he got here, and that one just blew up in Ne's face. People should relax.
Posted by zbellino
Actually its not a good point at all. May Myra Kraft RIP, and for the last week all we heard was her influence on the Pats and how THEY DIDNT want players with character issues on this team.
Haynesworth is going on trial for assault in August, was accused of groping a waitress in a restaurant...and now he is a Patriot.
So I guess now character doesn't matter as long as he produces on the field...Odd if a Jet fan said that he would get crucified on here. (seems that was the case when they signed Cromaitare last year)
i don't like this trade AT ALL no matter what he does on the field. the Patriots don't need this type of guy on their team. -
Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...
posted at 7/28/2011 7:40 AM EDT
- PatsEng
- Posts: 9137
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Now if they go out and get Roth WOW!!!
That could be an incredible front 7.
Warren Wilfork Haynesworth
Cunningham Mayo Spikes Roth -
Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...
posted at 7/28/2011 7:42 AM EDT
- sml1210
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In Response to Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...:Ok, I thought about it and pure logic wise it's a great move. You bounce Haynesworth to DE in the 34 and inside for the 43. All his bonuses have been paid so essentially we are only paying his base, which means we can dump him at any point and not be hurt by it. When he wants to play this is a major upgrade in the pass rush. Finally for a 5th in 2013 it's basically like we spent nothing for him. But when you start weighting the other facts I'm still not sure I get it. He has a hearing about a sexual assault charge Aug 23rd. The guy has been known to just give up on plays and not play period. He's not been known for conditioning. He's not a good locker room guy. He's lead a mutiny in Was locker room because he didn't want to practice (remember the incident with AD, Moss, and Burgess when they didn't go to a practice because it was snowing). Was so resistant to listen to coaching and playing inside on a 34 that he was benched for the last 4 games of a season. It's a gamble with little risk and great reward but if it doesn't pay off that 5.4mil in cap space this season could come back to haunt them. That's going to be a huge line though
Posted by PatsEng
Bill will have Albert on a shorter leash than Shanahan in Washington. I don't think you'll see Fat Albert laying on the field in Foxboro. Bill will cut him the next day.
Maybe this explains not selecting a DE in the draft. Again, BB is eight or ten moves ahead of everyone. -
Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...
posted at 7/28/2011 7:43 AM EDT
- Rocky
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In Response to Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...:Low risk, high reward trade. I watched Big Al dog it for the past 2 yrs w/the Redskins, he didn't like the 3-4 but on the rare occasions when he was motivated he was an unstoppable beast. Big Al was one of the many bad acquisions occasions orchestrated by owner Danny Boy Snyder. He was out-of-shape also and if Big AL tanks w/the Pats his career is over. He has the money, now hopefully he gets in shape, adjusts his surly attitude and gets motivated for a SB run.
Posted by MarylandFanFunny how the majority of the people on her are thinking the same things about the trade.....Low risk....High reward If anybody is going to get anything out of him like Dillion and Moss, it will be BB -
Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...
posted at 7/28/2011 7:43 AM EDT
- zbellino
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I would add, as well, the the total amount of 34 time Hayneworth will play will drop even more if you factor in how many fewer two-gap assignments he'll face as a 34 END (his more natural position as a 43DT transfer) instead of playing Nose like Shanahan had him doing.
That stands to fall dramatically, and for Haynesworth, that is a huge benefit. -
Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...
posted at 7/28/2011 7:45 AM EDT
- Quagmire3
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I cant believe some of you dont love this move! Sure Big Al has a rep as a malcontent, but so did Corey Dillon and Randy Moss. You really think that Big Vince, Ty Warren, or even Tom Brady or is gonna let Albert come in here and upset the locker room?! No way. Vince got too much invested in this team and takes pride in being a Captain! Now can you imagine any team having 3rd and 1 or 4th and 1 trying to run on this D-line!!! Can anyone name a DL that Albert played with in Washington? Thats why he hated it there, he was on the nose getting doubled and triple teamed every play. Albert Haynesworth has never played with another D-lineman as talented as Vince. I bet they push each other to new heights! -
Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...
posted at 7/28/2011 7:48 AM EDT
- PatsEng
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In Response to Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...:In Response to Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND... : Yes, but in the vast majority of "subs" they play with a 43 front. Their nickel package has a 43 front, their quick sub, where Nink or Cunningham get down, is a 43 look, and for a 34 end like Al is a 43. And their 3 safety (big nickel) usually has a 43 look. The only sub-set NE doesn't come with four down most often is dime, which they are rarely, rarely in. Among NFL 34 defenses, NE shows more 43 fronts than any team out there. Indeed, the number is close to 50%.
Posted by zbellino
You're right it's a look but not a 43 simply because a lot of the time those OLB's on the outside faint as part of the rush package. Most of the time The DE's act as DE's and the OLB's either faint to allow the DE's to rush between the B gap as a means to draw off the T (that's where most of Wright's sacks came off of) or it's to free the ILB for an inside delayed blitzed to separate the line. That's the huge difference there between the styles. In a 43 the roles are defined and in 34 sub packages with 43 looks they are completely fluid depending on the package they are running at the time. Actually because of this it makes Haynesworth more dangerous because you have to account for him but if they line up in a 43 look and are in a 34 sub then you can get beat up the middle by a ILB blitz or get fooled with a OLB faint leaving a hole in the B gap -
Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...
posted at 7/28/2011 7:49 AM EDT
- Rocky
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With the leaders of this team helping....I hope Haynesworth will be motivated with the idea of winning a SB. -
Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...
posted at 7/28/2011 7:50 AM EDT
- Rocky
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Not to be a "downer", the Patriots were ranked 32nd in 3rd down Defense....(BB has a 9AM press conference, should be interesting!) -
Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...
posted at 7/28/2011 7:56 AM EDT
- nyjoseph
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Thank You BB!
Wow!
Speechless!
What do you think Markie Sanchez' reaction is this morning? Nowhere to hide now Markie! -
Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...
posted at 7/28/2011 7:56 AM EDT
- tompenny
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He hates the 3-4 but he's getting Tully money so I can't complain that much even though he's a total tool. I don't think there is much of a question his talent is just a tad higher than Tully @ like a million more bucks and can match his sack production. BB is probably going to make him a specialist and just tell him to kill the QB on 3rd downs. Time to get some linebackers. -
Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...
posted at 7/28/2011 7:58 AM EDT
- PatsEng
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In Response to Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...:I would add, as well, the the total amount of 34 time Hayneworth will play will drop even more if you factor in how many fewer two-gap assignments he'll face as a 34 END (his more natural position as a 43DT transfer) instead of playing Nose like Shanahan had him doing. That stands to fall dramatically, and for Haynesworth, that is a huge benefit.
Posted by zbellino
Very good point Z
His role is to control the B gap and assisting off the A and C on swing plays if the OLB drops back to coverage or there is a lead blocker in the backfield but mainly he's only going to need to worry about the B. This should free him up dramatically from his role in Was where he was covering both A's and assisting on the B's. But, that's completely contingent on him being in shape and taking advantage of the gap split. Which when he is/does he is one of the most dominant DL in the game -
Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...
posted at 7/28/2011 8:02 AM EDT
- Faucetman
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In Response to Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...:In Response to Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND... : Yes, but in the vast majority of "subs" they play with a 43 front. Their nickel package has a 43 front, their quick sub, where Nink or Cunningham get down, is a 43 look, and for a 34 end like Al is a 43. And their 3 safety (big nickel) usually has a 43 look. The only sub-set NE doesn't come with four down most often is dime, which they are rarely, rarely in. Among NFL 34 defenses, NE shows more 43 fronts than any team out there. Indeed, the number is close to 50%.
Posted by zbellino
Z and Pats, forget what we did in the past. BB will run the defense that works best for his player's skill sets and will adjust it based on the opposition each week. I think we may become more of a base 43 now. As someone else said, it would solve our lack of rush 34 OLBs. TBC was cut, so switching to a base 43, as crazy as it sounds, could be what is coming. Damn, too bad we didn't get Julius Peppers last year, lol. -
Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...
posted at 7/28/2011 8:03 AM EDT
- zeitgeist49
- Posts: 182
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Almost everyone is posting a front of Wilfork, Haynesworth and Warren. Warren's best years are behind him. He's only a 50-50 chance to make the team, especially given what transpired last year with Warren. And we will have enough run stuffers. We need more consistent pressure on the quarterback and Warren has never provided that. -
Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...
posted at 7/28/2011 8:03 AM EDT
- nyjoseph
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Haynesworth's past troubles with coaches are well documented, but I think Big Vince will be as much of a factor in keeping him in line as any of the Pats coaches.
If he can't handle it from Vince let him go. -
Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...
posted at 7/28/2011 8:12 AM EDT
- Philskiw1
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I'd think the 4-3 line would look more like Warren Brace wilfork and hanesworth. I dont see cunningham or nickovich on the line. Be nothing running on our right side. -
Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...
posted at 7/28/2011 8:12 AM EDT
- NoMorePensionLooting
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Greeeeaaaatttttt Move! (if I do say so myself)
Sorry, please allow me a little self-indulgence! -
Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...
posted at 7/28/2011 8:13 AM EDT
- zbellino
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In Response to Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...:In Response to Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND... : In a 43 the roles are defined and in 34 sub packages with 43 looks they are completely fluid depending on the package they are running at the time.
Posted by PatsEng
I think you are really underestimating the complexity of how a 43 is a run and over-rating the complexity of how a 34 is run. It's true that sometimes the linebacker drops back after showing himself at the line, but 43 ends drop as well, and often pressure is brought from the LBing crew. This wasn't any different in Tennessee for Haynesworth.
BB runs incredibly complex defenses whether in 43 or 34 fronts, and rarely ever drops Mike Wright or Cunningham/Nink from the 43 front into protection.
But the point remains, that switching from NT in a fledgling system, to 34 END in the Patriots system will basically solve Haynesworth's issue.
The fact alone, that BB only has his 34 ENDs in two gap a assignments a small amount the the time (he is usually sending someone or using a LBer to set the edge) will make it feel a lot more like a 43 for Haynesworth as opposed to playing over the zero gap in Shanahan's defense.
In short, most of the time Haynesworth will have protection next to him on both sides and will only be responsible for covering one gap because of the amount of 43 fronts NE plays.
It will be a sea-change from playing NT in Washington. -
Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...
posted at 7/28/2011 8:13 AM EDT
- Rocky
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Live 9AM BB press conference -
Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...
posted at 7/28/2011 8:18 AM EDT
- Faucetman
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In Response to Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...:I cant believe some of you dont love this move! Sure Big Al has a rep as a malcontent, but so did Corey Dillon and Randy Moss. You really think that Big Vince, Ty Warren, or even Tom Brady or is gonna let Albert come in here and upset the locker room?! No way. Vince got too much invested in this team and takes pride in being a Captain! Now can you imagine any team having 3rd and 1 or 4th and 1 trying to run on this D-line!!! Can anyone name a DL that Albert played with in Washington? Thats why he hated it there, he was on the nose getting doubled and triple teamed every play. Albert Haynesworth has never played with another D-lineman as talented as Vince. I bet they push each other to new heights!
Posted by Quagmire3
Excellent point!! Big Al would only be our second best DL. You can't double everyone. The more I think about this, the more I love the potential if Big Al brings the right attitude and stays in shape. Our DL can now match up with the best OLs (think Jets). I can already see Sanchez running for his life. I'm not sure how BB will play AH but I am sure they have been talking to him and both are on board with the idea.
BB has to be comfortable that Haynesworth with play for him. Let's face it, if you can't get excited about playing for the best coach in football and being on the best team in football, you need to go home. Washington was going nowhere, like Dillion, maybe Haynesworth was sick of losing too and being on the best team, with the best head coach and owner, best QB, etc, etc will turn him into a motivated machine wanting to silence all the critics. I'm betting this is what we see, a highly motivated AH with a chip on his shoulder and something to prove. Boy, I wish I could see the look on Rex's face this morning when he picks up the paper. -
Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...
posted at 7/28/2011 8:19 AM EDT
- ReeGzUSMC
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In Response to Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...:Pats already play 43 sub over half the time, and have for a decade. The lines would look something like: Nink - Warren - Wilfork - Haynesworth - Cunningham Wright - Wilfork - Haynesworth - Cunningham NE will get after the QB on first through third down.
Posted by zbellino
U are the man! lol That front will be UNREAL!! (Assuming Al's Fat A!# stomach is full of "Humble Pie") -
Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...
posted at 7/28/2011 8:19 AM EDT
- JulesWinfield
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This isn't a bad move. Since you guys only gave up a 5th and you've got much better picks stockpiled, it's a low-risk move. Still, you've picked up a class-A scvmb@g. If he plays at all at a decent level, it was a good move, though. -
Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...
posted at 7/28/2011 8:19 AM EDT
- Rocky
- Posts: 7477
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In Response to Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND...:In Response to Re: HAYNESWORTH traded to NEW ENGLAND... : Excellent point!! Big Al would only be our second best DL. You can't double everyone. The more I think about this, the more I love the potential if Big Al brings the right attitude and stays in shape. Our DL can now match up with the best OLs (think Jets). I can already see Sanchez running for his life. I'm not sure how BB will play AH but I am sure they have been talking to him and both are on board with the idea. BB has to be comfortable that Haynesworth with play for him. Let's face it, if you can't get excited about playing for the best coach in football and being on the best team in football, you need to go home. Washington was going nowhere, like Dillion, maybe Haynesworth was sick of losing too and being on the best team, with the best head coach and owner, best QB, etc, etc will turn him into a motivated machine wanting to silence all the critics. I'm betting this is what we see, a highly motivated AH with a chip on his shoulder and something to prove. Boy, I wish I could see the look on Rex's face this morning when he picks up the paper.
Posted by FaucetmanI am sure the media will ask Rex what he thinks of the trade in a press conference and Rex will say something stupid or make a joke about it!