Here is your answer to all the debate over the running game from BB mouth!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Paul_K. Show Paul_K's posts

    Re: Here is your answer to all the debate over the running game from BB mouth!

    The game has changed. 

    The dominant run-blocking offensive line is gone.  Most great linemen prefer to be defensive linemen in college.  375 pound monsters become nose tackles, not offensive tackles. 

    Defensive ends have become terribly adept at going around the outside of the tackle. 

    In response, offensive tackles have gotten faster and lighter.  If you're a slow tackle, you're a guard or a center.    The average offensive line is more spread out to slow the outside pass rush. 

    Trader Bill is at the front of this revolution.  Two Ton Ted Washington had a playing weight of 400 pounds, and Wilfork is at least at 375 when the season starts.  Belichick practically reinvented the giant run-stopping defensive end when he grabbed Richard Seymour and Ty Warren.  When the Pats went looking for a first-round offensive tackle, they chose Nate Solder, a quick explosive guy for a 300 pounder.  Better to guard the edge effectively than to try and maul defensive ends.  This year, BB went and found himself some hot blitzers.

    Belichick was in the middle of two shifts in NFL policy.  The no mugging Peyton Manning's receivers rules were in response to Ty Law playing Indianapolis extremely closely.  The Tom Brady rule was in response to another team using the Tonya Harding strategy of winning.  These two rules really shifted the game away from run first to pass first. 

    There's still a place for a running game in the NFL, and that place is outside the tackles.  Belichick lines up six and a half offensive linemen when he puts Gronkowski and Hernandez in, so he brings more lumber to an outside run than most modern teams.  The Patriots like to zone block outside now.  This gets good value out of the linemen's speed.  The best complement to zone blockers is quick little guys who find a hol e in all that motion and cut through.  That's where Vereen, Ridley, Woodhead and someday Jeff Demps all come in. 

    If any team (Indianapolis comes to mind) wants to put out a squishy-soft defensive line, BB will be glad to run through that line until the run defense gets even softer.  

    Football is always going to be some kind of balance between the run game and the passing game.  BB wants to field a team strong in both departments, so that no opponent can gang up on one aspect of the offense (unless the Patriots are 21 points ahead late in the fourth quarter and everyone knows that they want to eat the clock.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: Here is your answer to all the debate over the running game from BB mouth!

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    Many of us have been calling for balance and better play calling since Josh left, coincidently he is here and we're running, calling screen passes and play action but some of you want to say it is coincidence... that O'Brien would have called more screen plays and run plays if his players were better?

    Now you sound comical.

    Josh ranked #4 rushing the ball the NFL in 2008 with Maroney and Sammy Morris.  Wake up fellas, it's coaching, always has been, always will be...  If Cassall didn't have a learning curve to start the season we may have won more games than 11-5, as it was we should have made the playoffs over the 9-7 teams that did go, but that is the NFL's cross to bear.

    If O'Brien didn't leave he would have been let go in favor of McDaniel's, that's what I read into this article.  O'Brien blew, predictable, choke artist... he couldn't produce in the clutch.  Our last three Super Bowl victories ended with a last minute drive, there was none of that confidence under O'Bie.  

    2010 was Brady's best season under him, he also had Law Firm rush for over 1000 yards coincidentally...  when the playoffs started Obie started Woodhead in favor of Law Firm and we got blown out.  Brilliant game planning no doubt about it.



      The rushing game is not as productive as the passing game. Period!
    In 2008 Cassell was a game manager until about game 9-10. Then they set him loose.
    Until that time, he handed off the ball.  After that they started to blow out teams.  GET IT?
    Weak pass teams run more.  The 50/50 teams are dead last in the league.
    Do you like 3 and 6 point games like the preseason?  Better hope the new D can pitch shut outs every game.
    They will run when needed and when effective, not for the dam sake of getting percentages up.  Rushing is not point productive when not effective.   They ran the ball 35+ times  before it ever set up a pass a few weeks ago.  Things have changed,.  Sometimes they pass to set up the run.  
    Please read zbello's post if you haven't.    Learning is fun!
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from csylvia79. Show csylvia79's posts

    Re: Here is your answer to all the debate over the running game from BB mouth!

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to DelGriffith's comment:

    I love Brady too, but not recently with his abysmal decision making and poor play at times in recent postseasons. I would prefer not be Jay Cutler in January and February.  Not hard to understand.


    You love him but bash him on every thread.  Hmmm.. sounds like a jilted GF to me.
    Still insulting, still delusional, still rusty.
    Will you ever learn? 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    He can't admit that the whole team had shortcomings.  To him it's all just TB and OB's fault and we been over the reasons a 1000 times even if they are true or not.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: Here is your answer to all the debate over the running game from BB mouth!

    In response to Paul_K's comment:

    The game has changed. 

    The dominant run-blocking offensive line is gone.  Most great linemen prefer to be defensive linemen in college.  375 pound monsters become nose tackles, not offensive tackles. 

    Defensive ends have become terribly adept at going around the outside of the tackle. 

    In response, offensive tackles have gotten faster and lighter.  If you're a slow tackle, you're a guard or a center.    The average offensive line is more spread out to slow the outside pass rush. 

    Trader Bill is at the front of this revolution.  Two Ton Ted Washington had a playing weight of 400 pounds, and Wilfork is at least at 375 when the season starts.  Belichick practically reinvented the giant run-stopping defensive end when he grabbed Richard Seymour and Ty Warren.  When the Pats went looking for a first-round offensive tackle, they chose Nate Solder, a quick explosive guy for a 300 pounder.  Better to guard the edge effectively than to try and maul defensive ends.  This year, BB went and found himself some hot blitzers.

    Belichick was in the middle of two shifts in NFL policy.  The no mugging Peyton Manning's receivers rules were in response to Ty Law playing Indianapolis extremely closely.  The Tom Brady rule was in response to another team using the Tonya Harding strategy of winning.  These two rules really shifted the game away from run first to pass first. 

    There's still a place for a running game in the NFL, and that place is outside the tackles.  Belichick lines up six and a half offensive linemen when he puts Gronkowski and Hernandez in, so he brings more lumber to an outside run than most modern teams.  The Patriots like to zone block outside now.  This gets good value out of the linemen's speed.  The best complement to zone blockers is quick little guys who find a hol e in all that motion and cut through.  That's where Vereen, Ridley, Woodhead and someday Jeff Demps all come in. 

    If any team (Indianapolis comes to mind) wants to put out a squishy-soft defensive line, BB will be glad to run through that line until the run defense gets even softer.  

    Football is always going to be some kind of balance between the run game and the passing game.  BB wants to field a team strong in both departments, so that no opponent can gang up on one aspect of the offense (unless the Patriots are 21 points ahead late in the fourth quarter and everyone knows that they want to eat the clock.



    very nice post.
    one thing you didnt say, but has been said elsewhere bb really didnt get the pieces needed to have a balanced offense when we didnt have the rbs to get teh job done.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Here is your answer to all the debate over the running game from BB mouth!

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    Many of us have been calling for balance and better play calling since Josh left, coincidently he is here and we're running, calling screen passes and play action but some of you want to say it is coincidence... that O'Brien would have called more screen plays and run plays if his players were better?

    Now you sound comical.

    Josh ranked #4 rushing the ball the NFL in 2008 with Maroney and Sammy Morris.  Wake up fellas, it's coaching, always has been, always will be...  If Cassall didn't have a learning curve to start the season we may have won more games than 11-5, as it was we should have made the playoffs over the 9-7 teams that did go, but that is the NFL's cross to bear.

    If O'Brien didn't leave he would have been let go in favor of McDaniel's, that's what I read into this article.  O'Brien blew, predictable, choke artist... he couldn't produce in the clutch.  Our last three Super Bowl victories ended with a last minute drive, there was none of that confidence under O'Bie.  

    2010 was Brady's best season under him, he also had Law Firm rush for over 1000 yards coincidentally...  when the playoffs started Obie started Woodhead in favor of Law Firm and we got blown out.  Brilliant game planning no doubt about it.



     
    Do you like 3 and 6 point games like the preseason?  Better hope the new D can pitch shut outs every game.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    If I want to watch low scoring offense I'll stick a tape of the last Super Bowl in. Better yet I'll go back and watch all our first round playoff exits over the past 5 years.

    I can't wait for the regular season to start and the return of the ignore button...

     
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  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from csylvia79. Show csylvia79's posts

    Re: Here is your answer to all the debate over the running game from BB mouth!

    In response to DelGriffith's comment:

    Dear Pezz, I don't bash Brady on "every" thread. Please stop lying as a way to lash out because you don't like my opinion. Very combative behavior which Dave does not want here.

    Brady has 5 INTs in his last 2 AFC title games at home.  That's a fact.  His INT rate is higher when he passes more and when he plays against good or great Ds.  Those are the facts.

    I want the team to win.  I have no idea why you would not if you're a Pats fan.  We cannot win a SB with poor or mediocre QB play.  It's just not going to happen, so stop pretending all of the responsibilty falls on everyone but our best and most expensive player.








    But can you contribute to any thread without mentioning Brady or call people thinks like Brady Ballwashers and such....   That is why you have become a troll in quite a few people's eyes instead of an interesting poster you use to be.  In all the games you say are Brady's fault for losing how good did the line play?  How well was the defense... how good was the coaching?  Most people are just tired of you just pointing out one area of fualt. In threads where we are talking about where the future is going you still bring some negativity.  I know your fustrated with what the QB postion has done in the playoffs since 2007.... everyone here knows it.  Why not try and just chat without bringing it up.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Here is your answer to all the debate over the running game from BB mouth!

    You'd realize if you could get over your love for fantasy football stats, that had we used the same pragmatic ball control approach in the 4th quarter of the last Super Bowl the results would have been different = win.

    Anyway I tend to use the eyeball test and the results test to gauge whether O'Brien was efficient winner and in both cases we were the Peyton Manning Colt's, great regular season but like BB says in the article, couldn't move the ball either running or with the pass in the clutch.  Who's fault was that?  I'm pretty sure Charlie Weis wasn't bemoaning that he had to use Patrick Pass on a swing pass and changed his whole playbook because of it.

    Enter Josh McDaniels, 4 tight ends, 5 runningbacks and the old offensive playbook. But keep telling yourself coaching played no part in it, even as we revert back to balance, screens and the running game. I'm sure O'Brien would have done the same thing had he only thought of it sooner...

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Here is your answer to all the debate over the running game from BB mouth!


    Mighty,

    I realize it is probably pointless to respond to you, but call me a sucka.

    The run game, opens up the pass game. This is not even up for debate. Perhaps you missed the article in the OP, talking about how N.E has gone too far away from the run. This opinion is not even what is being questioned by both sides of this discussion. We ALL want to see more running....well all except you apparently.

    Some question whether we have had the proper talent to run when needed. Some(like me) say not having the proper talent was a symptom of the change in philosophy from being a ball control team to a down field passing attack.(see 2 undrafted RB's as our starters for 2 years in OB's system)

    Then there is you, who apparently doesn't think the run game has any effect on winning or losing games. ...Actually, I distinctly remember Babe trying to tell us that we run the ball as much as the average team. So I guess he also thinks we run enough, so in that respect you have 1 man in your corner.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from glenr. Show glenr's posts

    Re: Here is your answer to all the debate over the running game from BB mouth!

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:


    Mighty,

    I realize it is probably pointless to respond to you, but call me a sucka.

    The run game, opens up the pass game. This is not even up for debate. Perhaps you missed the article in the OP, talking about how N.E has gone too far away from the run. This opinion is not even what is being questioned by both sides of this discussion. We ALL want to see more running....well all except you apparently.

    Some question whether we have had the proper talent to run when needed. Some(like me) say not having the proper talent was a symptom of the change in philosophy from being a ball control team to a down field passing attack.(see 2 undrafted RB's as our starters for 2 years in OB's system)

    Then there is you, who apparently doesn't think the run game has any effect on winning or losing games. ...Actually, I distinctly remember Babe trying to tell us that we run the ball as much as the average team. So I guess he also thinks we run enough, so in that respect you have 1 man in your corner.



    It's tough being a down field passing team when the opposition knows what you are going to do every play. It may work against most of the teams in the NFL but it doesn't work against the teams with top defenses ( ie Ravens and Giants ) who came after Brady every down.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Here is your answer to all the debate over the running game from BB mouth!

    The 2007 Pats team is the perfect example of a team that started with supreme balance that eventually lost its way by season's end, they peaked way too early.  Deep passes happen because of guile, play action and the ability to keep a defense off balance... not because of some hyper athleticism.  We ran, we passed and we were unpredictable...

    We had plenty of good deep throws in the 2001-2004 Super Bowl years, even without Randy Moss like talent, with Troy Brown and Deion Branch (slot receivers) as our leading receivers because the play action drew the defense in and exploited them over the top.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from tanbass. Show tanbass's posts

    Re: Here is your answer to all the debate over the running game from BB mouth!

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    The 2007 Pats team is the perfect example of a team that started with supreme balance that eventually lost its way by season's end, they peaked way too early.  Deep passes happen because of guile, play action and the ability to keep a defense off balance... not because of some hyper athleticism.  We ran, we passed and we were unpredictable...

    We had plenty of good deep throws in the 2001-2004 Super Bowl years, even without Randy Moss like talent, with Troy Brown and Deion Branch (slot receivers) as our leading receivers because the play action drew the defense in and exploited them over the top.



    I agree....and add in the fact the OL absolutely sucked in the SB that year....and our offense failed miserably.

    Josh will hopefully bring that "unpredictable play calling" back, which will open up both the running and deep routes. Let's just pray that the OL can come together otherwise all these weapons mean squat....
     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Here is your answer to all the debate over the running game from BB mouth!

    Truthfully I'm seriously geeked about the possibilities of Josh McDaniels handling the explosive collection of runningback talent we have in concert with lloyd, Welker and the tightend beef on the edges.  If Waters doesn't show up I hope they consider using Cannon at right guard because we'll have the nastiest run paving offense in the league and the receivers will benefit the most from this parity.

    I'm not going to let the fantasy football fanatics around here get me down, the regular season is here and balance is back, like it or not.  It won't be until the regular season starts and they see the I-Formation smacking them in the face game after game before they realize play calling matters more than talent.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Here is your answer to all the debate over the running game from BB mouth!

    I think the Bengals are one lucky team! Benny is going to run for 2000 yards and they are going to the Super Bowl.
     
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  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from CablesWyndBairn. Show CablesWyndBairn's posts

    Re: Here is your answer to all the debate over the running game from BB mouth!

    If the reluctance to turn to the ground game in some situations was due to RB personnel last year, then let's hope that Ridley solves that problem.  We've quoted stats and numbers ad nauseam about the running game, but in certain games and situations it was obvious that either Obie didn't like running the ball or he didn't like his options.  Here's hoping a guy like McD will be more innovative, and I'd bet my life he will be.  
     
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