Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA

    DLine:
    Wilfork - 30
    Deaderick - 24
    Love - 24
    Brace - 25
    And if back Anderson - 28

    LB:
    Mayo - 26
    Spikes - 24
    Cunningham - 23
    Ninkovick - 28
    Guyton - 26
    Fletcher - 25

    Secondary:
    McCourty - 24
    Chung - 24
    Arrington - 25
    Dowling - 23
    S. Moore - 22

    *expected starters in bold

    No, the defense is not great. But, they've been, at times, good enough, and are obviously young enough that I think it's fair to expect a decent improvement on those factors alone.

    Then factor in the offseason. This can not be overlooked. Rookies were coming in very short-handed, as was everyone else. This is only compounded with a young team not used to playing together for long stretches. I think there's proof of that as the D actually played very well in the playoffs.

    Underwood, Slater, Edelman and some guy named Britt Davis are the ONLY WRs on the team under 30.

    I'm not saying the D is great, they aren't, and obviously could use some improvement. For me though, I'd use the money this year to address the WR corps, and give the D a year to mature, an offseason to grow and see what they really have.

    There are HUGE question marks on:
    S. Moore
    Dowling
    Cunningham
    Deaderick/Love/Brace

    Of that group of six there could potentially be a few studs and servicable players, or a group of injury prone/bums/never weres. I'd give it another year, and see how the 2 first rounders work out this year.

    In short, I see a lot of potential on D where-as I see NONE as WRs. Every level of the D has players that realistically could turn into good-to-very good players.
    Edelman/Slater/Underwood/Davis...what can really be hoped for? Edelman to round into a 50 catch a year WR?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA

    The Pats D should be a priority in the draft (unless we get Mario Williams at an incredible price of course) but we need talent at defensive tackle and safety. I don't think another rookie safety is likely to happen though, especially if BB can get a vet that he respects to come play for him.  

    There are no absolutes in the off season, if a great bargain comes along you take it.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from seawolfxs. Show seawolfxs's posts

    Re: Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA


    I thouhgt our D was young, inexperienced and
    learning to play with each other

    I sort of thought that this D is in the smae place
    as our D was just b4 we started to win SBs

    we had Chung maybe lining up is just slightly the wrong
    place and then the Maninnigham catch, and mayo
    having made the right coverage but turning the wrong way
    on the TD

    I think we need one more stud on the rush
    and another db - with the pass oriented NFL
    we will always need anothe db

    on offense - we need a wr (not slot) w speed, hands
    size and can understand the O


     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA

    So it's not a priority because in a 34 they are missing 2 DL starters, 1 LB starter, 1 DB starter and in a 43 they are missing 3 DL starters and 1 DB starter (can't assume Anderson will be back)?

    My guess would be if you are missing more the a 1/3 of the starters in any formation then it should be a priority

    On the flip side you are missing what 2 WR (1 of which is suppose to be tagged today) and 1 C starter on the O so that makes it a bigger priority?

    If you assume Anderson is back then that lowers the total to D missing 3 starters but then you also have to assume Connolly and Welker are back so that lowers the missing starters on O to 1. Even though the draft you won't get 3 starters that make impacts in their first year with the first 3 picks though you could potentially find a #2 WR who could give you at least Branch's numbers in the first year. So, point being you make whatever has the most holes a priority in FA and that would be D. Now you can argue that the S and front 7 market isn't strong compared to the WR market but CB is fairly deep with CB talent so that's where I would target first, then WR, then D again.

    Dragon not very good logic on your part
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA

    In Response to Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA:
    DLine: Wilfork - 30 Deaderick - 24 Love - 24 Brace - 25 And if back Anderson - 28 LB: Mayo - 26 Spikes - 24 Cunningham - 23 Ninkovick - 28 Guyton - 26 Fletcher - 25 Secondary: McCourty - 24 Chung - 24 Arrington - 25 Dowling - 23 S. Moore - 22 * expected starters in bold No, the defense is not great. But, they've been, at times, good enough, and are obviously young enough that I think it's fair to expect a decent improvement on those factors alone. Then factor in the offseason. This can not be overlooked. Rookies were coming in very short-handed, as was everyone else. This is only compounded with a young team not used to playing together for long stretches. I think there's proof of that as the D actually played very well in the playoffs. Underwood, Slater, Edelman and some guy named Britt Davis are the ONLY WRs on the team under 30. I'm not saying the D is great, they aren't, and obviously could use some improvement. For me though, I'd use the money this year to address the WR corps, and give the D a year to mature, an offseason to grow and see what they really have. There are HUGE question marks on: S. Moore Dowling Cunningham Deaderick/Love/Brace Of that group of six there could potentially be a few studs and servicable players, or a group of injury prone/bums/never weres. I'd give it another year, and see how the 2 first rounders work out this year. In short, I see a lot of potential on D where-as I see NONE as WRs. Every level of the D has players that realistically could turn into good-to-very good players. Edelman/Slater/Underwood/Davis...what can really be hoped for? Edelman to round into a 50 catch a year WR?
    Posted by ma6dragon9


    good enough to get the defense off the field at crucial moments in the game? If not, then, the Patriots DO need place a priority on the pass rush and secondary.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA

    The 31st ranked D is good enough compared to the top ranked O?
    Your own chart shows too many holes in the D.
    However, it should be noted that a lot of the D's issues were due to several starters IR'd and various other starters missing  chunks of games throughout the season.
    The depth was just stretched to the limits and beyond.
    Hopefully adding a few more pieces and a play maker or two will fix that. 
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA

    Look at the overall impact of a WR on this offense compared to any single position you just mentioned.

    Then compare what is available, and the cost of those players.

    Then you'll see where I'm coming from.

    Also, I contend that the DLine has one potential starter in that young group, and a strong possibility of Anderson coming back, and possibly Carter. Dline solved in house pretty much. There's also the whole Sean Ellis/Gerard Warren older crew. Ellis is under contract, I don't think Warren is. But, it's a body, a spot on the roster, and money against the cap.

    I only listed the young guys up above, not that there is a whole lot else.

    Not saying they sign nobody, but "reprts" are stating that O, WR specifically, is the priority for the Pats, and I totally understand why.

    Nothing sinks a teams payroll faster than a high priced DLineman. See: Haynesworth. See: Seymour. See: Peppers. Teams develop them, and usually let them walk, or trade them. See: Jared Allen. See: Julius Peppers. Not good team I can think of recently (15 years or so) has been built around a high priced DLineman. Many of them DID have high priced WRs though. And good QBs, which NE already has.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from MordecaiBloodmoon. Show MordecaiBloodmoon's posts

    Re: Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA

    We need youth that can pass rush even if our 10 sack guys come back.  Who knows when they fall off a cliff and cant perform anymore?  What if one gets hurt? oh wait we had that this year and although our D did play well, maybe if we had just that little bit more of pressure we would have been champs this year.  That is an area of strength in the draft and weakness here, so grab 1 on the DL and 1 OLB.  That would be a great start to having a dominant D.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA

    In Response to Re: Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA:
    Look at the overall impact of a WR on this offense compared to any single position you just mentioned. Then compare what is available, and the cost of those players. Then you'll see where I'm coming from. Also, I contend that the DLine has one potential starter in that young group, and a strong possibility of Anderson coming back, and possibly Carter. Dline solved in house pretty much. There's also the whole Sean Ellis/Gerard Warren older crew. Ellis is under contract, I don't think Warren is. But, it's a body, a spot on the roster, and money against the cap. I only listed the young guys up above, not that there is a whole lot else. Not saying they sign nobody, but "reprts" are stating that O, WR specifically, is the priority for the Pats, and I totally understand why. Nothing sinks a teams payroll faster than a high priced DLineman. See: Haynesworth. See: Seymour. See: Peppers. Teams develop them, and usually let them walk, or trade them. See: Jared Allen. See: Julius Peppers. Not good team I can think of recently (15 years or so) has been built around a high priced DLineman. Many of them DID have high priced WRs though. And good QBs, which NE already has.
    Posted by ma6dragon9


    Ellis was a 1 yr deal at $5mil so most likely not coming back. Anderson seems like the most likely target to come back and even if Carter comes back he's had issues with both legs at his age, at this point, how much can you actually count on him moving forward?

    Looking at the FA list there are plenty of players that won't break the bank but could be targeted in FA for the DL: Langford, Bryant, Jones, Dixon, Roth. Maybe not top starters but they could be effective and at minimum provided much needed depth.

    Though I agree spending big on DL isn't the solution and getting young should be a good solution you still need to fortify the D much more then the O at this point. When you really break it down Everything but C is set on the OL, the TE's are set except depth, the RB's are close to set, the QB is set. That basically leaves depth and 1-2 WR positions if you tag Welker. How do you make 1 player the main priority in the off-season when the other side of the ball has so many questions marks at all 3 levels?
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Getzo. Show Getzo's posts

    Re: Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA

    Honestly I hope you're dead wrong here.  They need a game changer on D.  Yes this D has improved, but they are not feared nor a concern of other teams.  They need game changers.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from unclealfie. Show unclealfie's posts

    Re: Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA

    In Response to Re: Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA:
    Honestly I hope you're dead wrong here.  They need a game changer on D.  Yes this D has improved, but they are not feared nor a concern of other teams.  They need game changers.
    Posted by Getzo


     agree 100%. They have enough "bodies" on the Dline. "Bodies" don't win championships. They need at least one elite athlete in the Dline, one at OLB and a drastic overhaul of Dbacks in order to make this this into a championship caliber D.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA



    Good list ma6dragon9, but it actually convinces me the D should be a priority.  I think Eng hits it--there's not really a combination among those players that seems to work in either a typical 4-3 setup or a typical 3-4.  If you're going to play mostly 3-4, then you need an impact OLB and maybe a good 3-4 DE in addition to the safety and, I think, another corner.  If you're going to play mostly 4-3, then you need at least one DE, maybe a better DT to line-up next to Wilfork, and your safety and corner.  Either way, you're looking at four starting-quality players coming in. 

    I think, though, they should look for a top wideout too (in addition to Welker, assuming they do tag him).   That one addition would so greatly improve the diversity of the offense that ignoring it seems silly to me, especially with so many good candidates (in free agency and the draft) available.  I say focus on three key additions who are all solid starting type players: one WR, one OLB/DE, and one DB (either safety or corner).  Then pull in the best available talent (mostly on defense) around those guys.  Those top three could be acquired either in free agency or in the draft--but if you use the draft, you better use a high round pick on someone who is as close to a sure bet as you can get in the draft.  Getting a bunch of Darius Butlers and Brandon Tates in the draft won't help us.  If you want to experiment with long shots in the draft, then I think you need to use free agency to get players in those three key positions.    
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from oklahomapatriot. Show oklahomapatriot's posts

    Re: Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA

    We can rebuild through the draft
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA

    In Response to Re: Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA:
    We can rebuild through the draft
    Posted by kansaspatriot

    But the draft needs to be supplemented with the FA acquisitions. We actually have more holes then draft picks. On top of that certain positions (namely WR and DB) tend to have high learning curves of a yr+. With Brady having 3 yrs left on his current contract we should be targeting more immediate impact positions earlier. Edge rushers tend to be one position in which has a much lower learning curve, same with the lines in general. Doesn't mean you don't target DB's and WR's in either the first days but maybe closer to the back of 2nd would be a better shot at those positions.

    They should plan on complimenting Welker with a vet WR so that a rook doesn't have to step up to the #2 WR role on day 1 and they need to get some vet leadership into the DB core to help their extremely young core learn their roles and maintain their jobs on the field.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from portfolio1. Show portfolio1's posts

    Re: Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA

    Amazing how a person can rationalize things!

    I wont argue that WR is a major need - not just because they don't have a good outside man but also age in two of the players they do have. And in a passing league this is important.

    BUT - come on, get real. The D is not very good unless you like not being able to stop good teams in the playoffs. They need help on the edges in particular: DE, OLB, CB. They need 3 down players in those spots. They need to be more consistantly reliable against the run even when they have a DE and an OLB in the game who are very solid pass rushers. And they need pass rush. Carter was solid. Anderson was OK. Nink is OK. But none are studs against the run or in pass rush, just decent in the case of Carter and Nink. You NEED play makers in your front seven. And we do not have them on the edges. And there is no question that they need better pass coverage. No question at all. Maybe Dowling will come through. But you can't bet the team on him. Maybe McCourty will bounce back or become a good FS. But you can't bet the team on him either.

    So while you may have some players step up this coming year you need to upgrade talent. You want to take presure off Brady and the offense? You want to let them play without feeling like if they are not perfect the Pats lose? It is trying to be tooo perfect that lead to that not so good pass that Welker couldn't keep hold of. It is trying to be toooo perfect that leasds Brady to throw those two foolish deep balls agasint the Ravens and then against the Giants. Give them a good and reliable D with playmakers and the tone of the games will be different. More like the SB winning years.

    So yes I would like to see upgrade at WR and I even expect it. BUT NOT at the cost to upgrading D.

    Stop rationalizing every time you see points and TDs. Get yourself a good, tough D. THen when we play the Packers or 49ers next year in the SB you - and Brady - will feel like they can be themsleves and not have to be perfect on every play and on every series.

    Say it to yourself - D.... say it aloud - D.... again.....  again.... again...
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA

    In Response to Re: Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA:
    We can rebuild through the draft
    Posted by kansaspatriot


    I don't think the draft gets you enough players.  A lot of drafted players never pan out and those that do aren't all starting quality.  At a minimum, you need to pick up mid-level free agents to build depth. Ideally, you pick up one or two starters in free agency too.  I just don't think you can rely on the draft and rookie free agency to get you any more than seven or eight players, the majority of whom are going to be backups with, if you're lucky, two or three maybe contributing as either starters or significant rotational players. 
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from msteven. Show msteven's posts

    Re: Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA

    The first priority should be a veteran safety.  This is important becouse the communication in the secondary is a big problem.  Has been for a couple of years.  DL is a problem, but Pryar should be back.  This will help in the middle.  There is still a need for an OLB and a WR.  Start with the FA, then the draft and finally fill in with players cut from other teams.  Walters filled in well.  This team is not far from a consistant contender.  I think Ras i, Cunningham, and moore will be a big boost this year.  Like getting some free picks in this years draft.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA

    In Response to Re: Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA:
    The first priority should be a veteran safety.  This is important becouse the communication in the secondary is a big problem.  Has been for a couple of years.  DL is a problem, but Pryar should be back.  This will help in the middle.  There is still a need for an OLB and a WR.  Start with the FA, then the draft and finally fill in with players cut from other teams.  Walters filled in well.  This team is not far from a consistant contender.  I think Ras i, Cunningham, and moore will be a big boost this year.  Like getting some free picks in this years draft.
    Posted by msteven


    It absolutely should, this is a terribile draft for safety prospects.  After that, I think you look for WR help because of the rookie learning curve at that position.  Use the 1st round picks to address the D Line.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Brawny27. Show Brawny27's posts

    Re: Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA

    In response to "Re: Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA":
    We can rebuild through the draft Posted by kansaspatriot
    Yes we need a good heavy hitting young SAFETY!.. Free agent or try to move up on draft day.. For Barron
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA

    DLine:
    Wilfork - 30
    Deaderick - 24
    Love - 24
    Brace - 25
    And if back Anderson - 28

    LB:
    Mayo - 26
    Spikes - 24
    Cunningham - 23
    Ninkovick - 28
    Guyton - 26
    Fletcher - 25

    Secondary:
    McCourty - 24
    Chung - 24
    Arrington - 25
    Dowling - 23
    S. Moore - 22
    I think the problem with the list above is that despite their collective age, there is not enough excellent players on that list - you can say Wilfork and at times Mayo (although I think he's a good, not excellent player) - other than that it's pretty average at best. You can't win Super Bowls with average at best.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Pats7393. Show Pats7393's posts

    Re: Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA

    those starters don't really scare anyone, D should be a priority specially getting two (FA and Draft) 34 DEs and a starting caliber 34 OLB a safety as well but I preffer to go after Reggie Nelson from cincy and draft a big CB to move to S.


     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA

    I'm basing a lot of my faith in the defense in projecting improvements for the above-mentioned guys. Not all certainly, but there is a crop of good players who could evolve into very good/pro bowl caliber. Wilfork is. Mayo is, or is right there. Spikes looks ready to be. McCourty WAS. Chung teeters on being there when healthy. Is it unreasonable to expect 4/5 of those to have very good seasons? I definitely expect it from 3. Then Dowling/Cunningham/S. Moore I would say could shock people much like McCourty's rookie campaign. If just one does (not to the extreme level of DMC), that's another big boost to the D. Then add in another 2-3 FAs in the Carter/Anderson range...I think the D looks pretty good. To me, the D underperformed drastically last year. McCourty, Chung, Cunningham, Haynesworth, Bodden, S. Ellis and Dowling were all SERIOUS disappointments for various reasons. Give me a decently healthy (by NFL standards) season, and I honestly like what they have.

    I DO agree that a veteran presence would be welcome, but it's not like there are a lot of players that can step onto a team like the Pats and exert themselves as a leader. Rodney Harrison is a rare case.

    I'd give this D the year to prove it, let a leader emerge from this group. They are all young, and are entering the time when you'd start to expect some of them to become leaders. It's unfortunate it all happened to the D at once, but they lost everyone in a short span (Harrison, Bruschi, Vrabel, Seymour, Law) and were left iwth nothing but a very young, ROY in Mayo and Wilfork. Even Wilfork didn't really start to become a leader until the past year or 2.

    Give it time. Just like they lost all leadership and veteran presence at once, I think they're going to suddenly become a group of established NFL players and have a few people leading the group: Mayo, McCourty, Chung, Wilfork, Spikes. They need the confidence and experience. BB preaches "DO you job" and trusting teammates to do theirs. It takes time, but I think some serious rewards are going to present themselves soon.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bubthegrub12. Show Bubthegrub12's posts

    Re: Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA

     I think there's proof of that as the D actually played very well in the playoffs.

    If giving up a game-losing drive in the SB, plus not being able to get a single three and out is playing well, please share whatever you've been smoking! They had their moments against Denver (that was Tebow, not Elway under center), and Baltimore (never known for a top offense) in the first two games. But in three of their four losses they gave up the game winning drive in the last minute of the game. I agree they need an outside WR, and some help on the O-line. But they need to replace the playmaking and leadership of guys like McGinest and Harrison. While I'm hopeful that the defense can improve (greatly) with a full offseason, they are in desperate need of playmakers. Without a pass rush the secondary will wind up giving up big plays. Eli had all day to throw the ball, as did most opposing QBs all year. But they won't win the big prize if they have to depend on Brady putting up 30+ points a game in the playoffs. Especially if they cannot get the other team off the field and leave the O starting at the 15! This defense has been a "work in progress" for a few years and it needs to step it up soon. With Brady being 35, they cannot afford to keep drafting guys in the 2nd and 3rd round and hope they turn into stars.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA

    It seems like you need to do a lot of "projection" to see that list of players being anything special.  Cunningham wasn't all that great in his rookie year and couldn't even get on the field last year.  Could he turn out to be great next year?  Sure--but do you really want to hang your hat on that?  Dowling is another one that people keep saying is really going to be good.  Two years ago, we heard the same thing about Butler.  Maybe Dowling will be great, but it's a bit of a hope and a prayer at this point. 

    Deaderick? Love? Brace?  Those guys have played a lot and I think they are what they are.  Good backups. 

    Ninkovich? Fletcher? Guyton?  All backups too, I think.  Even if Nink is starting quality, he's nowhere near a Pro Bowl type impact player.  And if we go 3-4, who even starts at the other outside linebacker spot? 

    Arrington?  Moore?  Nice coming off the bench, maybe, but top starters in the NFL? 

    I don't know, I'm just not seeing it.   I say bring in at least two good free agents on defense and draft one or two others and see what happens.  




     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Here's why Pats D isn't a priority in FA

    plus, the Patriots have been rebuilding the D since 2005/2006. What is the D's biggest weakness? Pass rush, OLB/DE, secondary. Again, they've proven they can't get off the field on a consistent basis when needed to.
     
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